Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

This is like saying "my children are my grandparents, because they are the last living branch of my grandparents family tree".
I suppose it sounds very clever to assert something counterintuitive like "Birds are dinosaurs" on the grounds of biologist cladistics, but normal English-speakers do not use biologist clades as the only means of categorizing things. "My grandparents" and "My children" are two obvious examples of non-cladistic groups.

Molly's Hell has dinosaurs, they don't need shared ancestors to be dinosaurs.
No. It's saying that your children are decedents of your grandparents because you are a decedent of your grandparents.

Dinosaurs all have a single ancestor. This distinguishes them from the other large families of big lizard like animals of the time like pterosaurs. Phylogenetically everything that is descended from that ancestor is a dinosaur.

There are very good reasons we have moved away from characteristic based grouping of species and towards genetics. Animals that look a lot alike are frequently from extremely different lineages and animals that are very different can quite frequently be extremely closely related. Frequently the "defining trait" of a whole phylogenetic branch is independently evolved in part of another branch.

Tsetse Flies are not marsupials despite their young developing in pouches on their mother's body and drinking their mother's milk to grow. There are lizards that give live birth rather than lay eggs. There are mammals that lay eggs.
 
All typos should not be fixed, hopefully.
All typos should now be fixed, hopefully. ;) Ironic.

Dinosaurs all have a single ancestor.
No they don't, as seen by the fact Molly's Hell has dinosaurs that do not share ancestors with Earth dinosaurs.

You have simply re-asserted the point that I'm disputing. You have repeated the biologist-clade definition, but that's not a reason for why I should use the biologist-clade definition. My family is not a clade. My grandparents are not a clade. "Americans" are not a clade. Very many classifications of living beings are not clades. In much fantasy fiction with thinking nonhumans, "People" are not a clade.

Are you also going to say that the inhabitants of Molly's Hell aren't people because they do not share ancestors with Earth people?

Aliens can be people, so alien creatures can be dinosaurs, IMO.
 
All typos should now be fixed, hopefully. ;) Ironic.


No they don't, as seen by the fact Molly's Hell has dinosaurs that do not share ancestors with Earth dinosaurs.

You have simply re-asserted the point that I'm disputing. You have repeated the biologist-clade definition, but that's not a reason for why I should use the biologist-clade definition. My family is not a clade. My grandparents are not a clade. "Americans" are not a clade. Very many classifications of living beings are not clades. In much fantasy fiction with thinking nonhumans, "People" are not a clade.

Are you also going to say that the inhabitants of Molly's Hell aren't people because they do not share ancestors with Earth people?

Aliens can be people, so alien creatures can be dinosaurs, IMO.
Family is not a clade. Americans are not a clade. Grandparents are not a clade. People are not a clade. They are all ways to describe groups of things that are not clades.

While none of those things are clades "Dinosaur" or more specifically "Dinosauria" is a clade. It is literally the name of the clade. Things that do not share the monophyletic common ancestor with dinosaurs are definitionally not dinosaurs. Things that do share the monophyletic common ancestor ARE dinosaurs.

And our hell has had zero connection to the current creation until now. No common ancestor is possible. Therefore all life in our Hell comes from an entirely separate tree of life and should be classified as a thing unto itself.
 
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Family is not a clade. Americans are not a clade. Grandparents are not a clade. People are not a clade. They are all ways to describe groups of things that are not clades.

While none of those things are clades "Dinosaur" or more specifically "Dinosauria" is a clade. It is literally the name of the clade. Things that do not share the monophyletic common ancestor with dinosaurs are definitionally not dinosaurs. Things that do share the monophyletic common ancestor ARE dinosaurs.

And our hell has had zero connection to the current creation until now. No common ancestor is possible. Therefore all life in our Hell comes from an entirely separate tree of life and should be classified as a thing unto itself.
This would imply Molly's Hell doesn't have humans, either, which strikes me as obviously false. If cladistics disagrees, so much the worse for cladistics, it's the wrong tool for the job.
 
This would imply Molly's Hell doesn't have humans, either, which strikes me as obviously false. If cladistics disagrees, so much the worse for cladistics, it's the wrong tool for the job.
Molly's hell does not have humans. It has people who happened to convergently evolve ether naturally or through artificial (or divine) means into a species that is exactly like humans.

Though that DOES present an argument that the people ARE humans and the dinosaur like animals ARE dinosaurs. The acausality of events may mean that they DID descend from the same common ancestor but through Molly's conception of what a human and or dinosaur is. The intermediate step here is that Molly created the world with an existing history based on the conscious and subconscious desires she had and she subconsciously lifted earth life templates to use when creating new life.

It is not traditionally what we think as evolution, but at least in theory they could all be considered divinely created GMOs.
 
Molly's hell does not have humans. It has people who happened to convergently evolve ether naturally or through artificial (or divine) means into a species that is exactly like humans.
To be pedantic: we were given strong hints that it's the other way around, and humans inside Molly's soul predate humans outside of it (and are the original Creation-era human stock).
 
To be pedantic: we were given strong hints that it's the other way around, and humans inside Molly's soul predate humans outside of it (and are the original Creation-era human stock).
Yes, but our hell did not exist when creation was evolving humans and so the statement holds. It doesn't matter what group evolved first. The creation version has the creation phylogenetic names and the hell version needs to use a seperate set of hell phylogenetic names.

Though I hold simply adding ether "hell-" or "nega-" to the front of an animal name is sufficent to denote it is from our hell.

We don't have dinosaurs in our hell. We have Helldinosaurs. We don't have humans. We have hellhumans.

Though I am coming around to the "Molly copies God's homework enough to establish lineage" framework myself.

Molly's exaltation - Hey White God... Can I copy your homework?

White God - Sure, just chance some stuff around so it looks like your own work.

Molly's exaltation - Sure... (Adds hell dinosaurs, extends the timeline, removes permadeath).
 
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Also i dispute that they are creation humans. Because that would imply they can awaken essence and learn martial arts charms.
 
Just because it did not always exist originally does not mean it did not always exist now.

(English language isn't meant for talking about time manipulation)
People make that joke a lot, but the English language is perfectly fine for talking about time travel and time manipulation, with all the special rules it's accumulated over the years, and a hundred years of sci-fi authors going at it. No need for fake difficulty.

First, the English language almost always lets you use the present tense after a time indicator. "In 1998 AD, StarCraft is released, and becomes popular in South Korea."

Second, most pronouns can be recycled as marker adjectives. Instead of "In the past", say "In my past, which is his future". On the subject of pronouns, "my" should always refer to the person speaking. Do not point away from yourself and say "that's me", say instead "that's my past self". This is slightly longer, and much clearer.

Third, mark orders of time. The vast majority of events happen in normal, first-order time. Changes to first-order time are nonlinear in first-order time, but remain linear in second-order time, where one can describe which manipulations of first-order time were made before and after each other. If the sequence stops there (which most authors usually do), second-order time can be called "paratime" or "metatime". If there are changes to second-order time as well, those can be described in third-order time, and so on. Counting numbers are well established in English.

Molly's Hell first-order has always existed, and second-order was created recently, in a change from first-order not existing. See?
 
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Also i dispute that they are creation humans. Because that would imply they can awaken essence and learn martial arts charms.
By WoG there is a magical martial art tradition that is "more powerful than qiao" and require awakened / separated Po soul in our soul. I would expect them to be degraded terrestrial tier martial arts, which we might return to full glory in due time. It's on the docket to learn (Lydia should also study it)
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Everything...with caveats
--[X] Go ahead and set aside a pair of pistols and rifle, a case of the grenades, and have a suit of armor custom made for each of them. For Lydia, too, while we're at it (and maybe some other people later). And we'll take a case of the Surge Kits as well.
--[X] We'll bring it all back to Earth with us, but they don't actually get their shinies until they've been properly trained to use them. There will be time for that after school, on the weekends, etc. We'll have FCF personnel on Earth soon enough who can help with that. They'll each get a Surge Kit immediately, of course, as will Lydia, Harry, Thomas, and Michael.


Good enough.
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Everything...with caveats
--[X] Go ahead and set aside a pair of pistols and rifle, a case of the grenades, and have a suit of armor custom made for each of them. For Lydia, too, while we're at it (and maybe some other people later). And we'll take a case of the Surge Kits as well.
--[X] We'll bring it all back to Earth with us, but they don't actually get their shinies until they've been properly trained to use them. There will be time for that after school, on the weekends, etc. We'll have FCF personnel on Earth soon enough who can help with that. They'll each get a Surge Kit immediately, of course, as will Lydia, Harry, Thomas, and Michael.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Oct 11, 2023 at 10:43 AM, finished with 38 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Yes
    -[X] Everything...with caveats
    --[X] Go ahead and set aside a pair of pistols and rifle, a case of the grenades, and have a suit of armor custom made for each of them. For Lydia, too, while we're at it (and maybe some other people later). And we'll take a case of the Surge Kits as well.
    --[X] We'll bring it all back to Earth with us, but they don't actually get their shinies until they've been properly trained to use them. There will be time for that after school, on the weekends, etc. We'll have FCF personnel on Earth soon enough who can help with that. They'll each get a Surge Kit immediately, of course, as will Lydia, Harry, Thomas, and Michael.
    [X] Only some of it
    -[X] Protective equipment, weapons they would first need to be certified for, similarly to buying a normal gun.
    [X] Yes
    -[X] Everything
    [X] Only some of it
    -[X]Surge Kit
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Everything...with caveats
--[X] Go ahead and set aside a pair of pistols and rifle, a case of the grenades, and have a suit of armor custom made for each of them. For Lydia, too, while we're at it (and maybe some other people later). And we'll take a case of the Surge Kits as well.
--[X] We'll bring it all back to Earth with us, but they don't actually get their shinies until they've been properly trained to use them. There will be time for that after school, on the weekends, etc. We'll have FCF personnel on Earth soon enough who can help with that. They'll each get a Surge Kit immediately, of course, as will Lydia, Harry, Thomas, and Michael.
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Everything...with caveats
--[X] Go ahead and set aside a pair of pistols and rifle, a case of the grenades, and have a suit of armor custom made for each of them. For Lydia, too, while we're at it (and maybe some other people later). And we'll take a case of the Surge Kits as well.
--[X] We'll bring it all back to Earth with us, but they don't actually get their shinies until they've been properly trained to use them. There will be time for that after school, on the weekends, etc. We'll have FCF personnel on Earth soon enough who can help with that. They'll each get a Surge Kit immediately, of course, as will Lydia, Harry, Thomas, and Michael.
 
Looks like we'll have to devote an action in January to getting our Resources back up to 4.
I was hoping to put that off until March and the ~$390 million lottery.
Ah well. Not like we need cash immediately.
Can't we just have the Court print money? I suppose it would be better not to but that should be an option now.
Sure you are. Is Molly? Because we are roleplaying her.
Every body Molly kills is someone she has to carry for however long she lives.
Just let her become a sociopath. Its merely a matter of time stop worrying.
Molly took Red Court vampire prisoners for a reason
It was more practical for our purposes.
 
Arc 10 Interlude 1: Of Bone and Steel
Of Bone and Steel

3rd of December 2006 A.D.

The snow did not fall, it did not even swirl in the storm howling from northern shore it hurtled down upon the world like it hated this place and what was there not to hate about about this lifeless shore adorned with wrecks of ships and ruined lives, the man who walked along it thought with a kind of slow anger at odds with the danger he was in. He cursed once, twice under his breath, the wind snatching up the words in a still heavy Moscow accent that would mark him for almost as much of a stranger as the complexion of his skin. Sanya had little love of his home country still though he tried to see the light, the good among painful memories, but there was precious little of either to be had in Vayda-Guba.

Even though the town was near enough to the border with Norway that you could take a boat over in the summer inside an hour it might as well be on the moon for as far as the four score people left in the old Soviet apartment blocks peeling like rotten apples under the bite of the wind were concerned. There used to be more people here, military men to watch the border between what had once been competing superpowers, now it was just a place to be so you wouldn't freeze to death.

Not the kind of place you would be expecting one of them to be meddling, the traveler, the Knight, thought, hand sliding to the pummel of his sword. Not unless Eschtamidel was trying to get his hands on weapons grade Uranium again. He was nothing if not predictable in his love of fire and what fire could be more deadly than the flames of the sun brought to earth? Whatever else he was undeniably in the right place, he could feel the heat radiating off Esperacchius, almost as though in anticipation... and not so incidentally keeping his ass from freezing.

Not yet, the thought, the surety was his own and something more at the same time.

Slowly the storm abated and as the clouds were being herded east by the sudden change in the wind, a flash of light in the distance, fire, it was too pale for that. Some kind of spotlight? Sanya allowed himself a smile at the absurdity of someone dragging a spotlight all the way out here, but he had seen weirder, that might just be his job description.

As he got closer the knight did his best to stay unseen, which in the flat land of the peninsula meant getting far better acquainted with the lichen colored ground than he would would have liked. Thus as the sound of chanting grew underneath the hiss of the wind and the distant voice of the sea he started arguing with himself. On the one hand it would be very useful to know what he was up against before drawing steel, in case they could be talked out of whatever madness had seen him called here, on the other hand it was rather hard to fight with a sword when you are flopping around on your belly.

Thankfully the figures seemed wholly caught up in their dancing and chanting allowing him to get within thirty feet of the edge of the circle of light, but... What was that? In the middle of the circle of two dozen dancers there was a perfectly smooth hemisphere of pale stone, brought here by the sea or the ice maybe and it was glowing, a pale off white just strong enough to cast shadows. Most of the people casting those shadows weren't that special to look at, they had that mix of well worn quality that you would find with most of the people hiking or cycling in lonely places.

But the last figure was like something out of a dream, or a nightmare maybe, floating though the motions of the dance like a leaf on the breeze, a gnarled staff tipped with bone at his hand and of bone his mask. It looked almost like a wolf skull if the wolf in question had row upon row of razor sharp teeth, carved with symbols hidden in the dim light save for the beautifully carved flower that bloomed where the wizard's 'third eye' would be. A mane of wild hair grew from the back of the mask, a pair of horns extruding from it.


With every second, every breath the dance grew wilder and more savage, hands twisted like claws feet kicking like wild beasts as though the dancers were competing for the attention of the masked figure. One man was kicked to the ground and trampled as he clutched at the feet of the remaining celebrants, his screams of pain mixing in with the chanting.

"Right, I've seen enough," Sanya muttered to himself as he rose to his feet suddenly, the Sword of Hope already half drawn as he shouted for them to stop first in Russian and then in English, eyes fixed on the masked one.

"Stop?" The masked man laughed, contempt dripping even in that single syllable. "Things are only just beginning!"

A shadow passed between them then that did not touch the eye, but befuddled the mind. Against Esperacchius's edge it availed him not at all. Even as the knight advanced on his foe a hand, thin and spotted with age it seemed reached out from the folds of the cloak and snapped the neck of the woman who had just stumbled next to him, seeming to catch something intangible between their fingers.

The sword flashed lightning swift, shattering his right hand and sending the staff tumbling, but before the knight could continue the swing the magician folded in on himself as though he were little more than bones and tattered rags. A vulture took flight upon a bleeding wing and for all the power of the Swords they could not make men fly.

On the winds the mocking voice called back: "The stars turn again to, the moon rises. Even your Sacrificed God cannot stop what is coming!"

Sanya was not paying much attention. There is a reason why he learned how to shoot a Kalashnikov left handed and it was not so he could ponder the words of monsters. So the gun barked into the night, the muzzle flash too bright, too real and for a moment he thought he had gotten the fake bird, if swerved, almost as if it were about to fall... but then by will or malice it caught itself.

OOC: Finally get to post this, I rolled up the meeting, though not what would happen in it a long time ago.
 
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Well, villain escaping with some ominous words is probably the outcome of something like a good third or half of Knightly missions.

They are optimized for foiling the Fallen's plans, not for finishing them.

Still, must be frustrating.
 
"The stars turn again to, the moon rises. Even your Sacrificed God cannot stop what is coming!"

The maiden are related to stars, yes?

If I do remember correctly on that one, he's basically saying that the maidens are coming back, Luna is too.

Now, *Sacrificed God*? Yes, yes, Christ, dying for your sins and all that, but still, that epitaph in particular? I feel like there's something more there.
 
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