- Location
- washington
Yes but it then makes that a dad problem and we can claim complete innocence!
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Strives towards, not necessarily attains. The Solars and other Celestials of the First Age will attest to that.
Like I said, your game.
But even with your choosing to disregard the multiple realities thing, you still established that there were thousands, if not more, worlds and possibly intelligent species in this universe with their own.
The interactions involved probably scale exponentially.
Just dealing with the factors on Earth are well past the point where a mortal can comprehend and allow for.
To give one example from canon:
"And you want an explanation of some kind?" asked a man seated in the pew beside me.
I just about jumped out of my skin.
He was an older man. He had dark skin and silver-white hair, and he wore a blue workman's jumpsuit, like you often see on janitors. The name tag read "Jake."
"You," I breathed. "You're the archangel. You're Uriel."
He shrugged. The gesture carried acknowledgment, somehow.
"What are you doing here?" I asked—maybe a bit blearily. I was concussed and half the flask was gone.
"Perhaps I'm a hallucination brought on by head trauma and alcohol," he said.
"Oh," I said. I peered at him, and then offered him the flask. "Want a belt?"
"Very kind," he said, and took a swig from the flask. He passed it back to me. "I don't exactly make it a habit to do this, but if you've got questions, ask them."
"Okay," I said. "Why did you guys let Michael get so screwed up?"
"We didn't let him do anything," Jake replied calmly. "He chose to hazard himself in battle against the enemy. The enemy chose to shoot him, and where to point the gun and when to pull the trigger. He survived the experience."
"So in other words, God was doing nothing to help."
Jake smiled. "Wouldn't say that. But you got to understand, son. God isn't about making good things happen to you, or bad things happen to you. He's all about you making choices—exercising the gift of free will. God wants you to have good things and a good life, but he can't gift wrap them for you. You have to choose the actions that lead you to that life."
"Free will, huh?"
"Yes. For example, your free will on that island."
I eyed him and sipped more scotch.
"You saw the Valkyrie staring at Michael. You thought he was in danger. So even though it was your turn, you sent him up to the helicopter in your place."
"No good deed goes unpunished," I said, with one too many "sh" sounds. "That's where he got hurt."
Jake shrugged. "But if you hadn't, you'd have died in that harness, and he'd have died on that island."
I scowled. "What?"
Jake waved a hand. "I won't bore you with details, but suffice to say that your choice in that moment changed everything."
"But you lost a Knight," I said. "A warrior."
Jake smiled. "Did we?"
"He can barely walk without that cane. Sure, he handled Douglas, but that's a far cry from dealing with a Denarian."
"Ah," Jake said. "You mean warrior in the literal sense."
"What other kind of warrior is there?" I asked.
"The important kind."
I frowned again.
"Harry," Jake said, sighing. "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all. Not yet, anyway. Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one. Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"But Michael and me are literal guys," I said.
Jake actually laughed. "Yeah? Do you think we angled to have you brought into this situation because we needed you to beat someone up?"
"Well. Generally speaking. Yeah." I gestured with the flask. "Pretty much all we did was beat up this guy who had good intentions and who was desperate to do something to help."
Jake shook his head. "The real war happened when you weren't looking."
"Huh?"
"Courtney," Jake said. "The little girl who almost got hit by a car."
"What about her?" I asked.
"You saved her life," he said. "Moreover, you noted the bruise on her cheek—one which she acquired from her abusive father. Your presence heightened her mother's response to the realization that her daughter was being abused. She moved out the next morning." He spread his hands. "In that moment, you saved the child's life, prevented her mother from alcohol addiction in response to the loss, and shattered a generational cycle of abuse more than three hundred years old."
"I . . . um."
"Chuck the electrician," Jake continued. "He was drunk because he's fighting with his wife. Two months from now, their four-year-old daughter is going to be diagnosed with cancer and require a marrow transplant. Her father is the only viable donor. You saved his life with what you did—and his daughter's life, too. And the struggle that family is going to face together is going to leave them stronger and happier than they've ever been."
I grunted. "That smells an awful lot like predestination to me. What if those people choose something different?"
"It's a complex issue," Jake admitted. "But think of the course of the future as, oh, flowing water. If you know the lay of the land, you can make a good guess where it's going. Now, someone can always come along and dig a ditch and change that flow of water—but honestly, you'd be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives."
I just about jumped out of my skin.
He was an older man. He had dark skin and silver-white hair, and he wore a blue workman's jumpsuit, like you often see on janitors. The name tag read "Jake."
"You," I breathed. "You're the archangel. You're Uriel."
He shrugged. The gesture carried acknowledgment, somehow.
"What are you doing here?" I asked—maybe a bit blearily. I was concussed and half the flask was gone.
"Perhaps I'm a hallucination brought on by head trauma and alcohol," he said.
"Oh," I said. I peered at him, and then offered him the flask. "Want a belt?"
"Very kind," he said, and took a swig from the flask. He passed it back to me. "I don't exactly make it a habit to do this, but if you've got questions, ask them."
"Okay," I said. "Why did you guys let Michael get so screwed up?"
"We didn't let him do anything," Jake replied calmly. "He chose to hazard himself in battle against the enemy. The enemy chose to shoot him, and where to point the gun and when to pull the trigger. He survived the experience."
"So in other words, God was doing nothing to help."
Jake smiled. "Wouldn't say that. But you got to understand, son. God isn't about making good things happen to you, or bad things happen to you. He's all about you making choices—exercising the gift of free will. God wants you to have good things and a good life, but he can't gift wrap them for you. You have to choose the actions that lead you to that life."
"Free will, huh?"
"Yes. For example, your free will on that island."
I eyed him and sipped more scotch.
"You saw the Valkyrie staring at Michael. You thought he was in danger. So even though it was your turn, you sent him up to the helicopter in your place."
"No good deed goes unpunished," I said, with one too many "sh" sounds. "That's where he got hurt."
Jake shrugged. "But if you hadn't, you'd have died in that harness, and he'd have died on that island."
I scowled. "What?"
Jake waved a hand. "I won't bore you with details, but suffice to say that your choice in that moment changed everything."
"But you lost a Knight," I said. "A warrior."
Jake smiled. "Did we?"
"He can barely walk without that cane. Sure, he handled Douglas, but that's a far cry from dealing with a Denarian."
"Ah," Jake said. "You mean warrior in the literal sense."
"What other kind of warrior is there?" I asked.
"The important kind."
I frowned again.
"Harry," Jake said, sighing. "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all. Not yet, anyway. Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one. Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"But Michael and me are literal guys," I said.
Jake actually laughed. "Yeah? Do you think we angled to have you brought into this situation because we needed you to beat someone up?"
"Well. Generally speaking. Yeah." I gestured with the flask. "Pretty much all we did was beat up this guy who had good intentions and who was desperate to do something to help."
Jake shook his head. "The real war happened when you weren't looking."
"Huh?"
"Courtney," Jake said. "The little girl who almost got hit by a car."
"What about her?" I asked.
"You saved her life," he said. "Moreover, you noted the bruise on her cheek—one which she acquired from her abusive father. Your presence heightened her mother's response to the realization that her daughter was being abused. She moved out the next morning." He spread his hands. "In that moment, you saved the child's life, prevented her mother from alcohol addiction in response to the loss, and shattered a generational cycle of abuse more than three hundred years old."
"I . . . um."
"Chuck the electrician," Jake continued. "He was drunk because he's fighting with his wife. Two months from now, their four-year-old daughter is going to be diagnosed with cancer and require a marrow transplant. Her father is the only viable donor. You saved his life with what you did—and his daughter's life, too. And the struggle that family is going to face together is going to leave them stronger and happier than they've ever been."
I grunted. "That smells an awful lot like predestination to me. What if those people choose something different?"
"It's a complex issue," Jake admitted. "But think of the course of the future as, oh, flowing water. If you know the lay of the land, you can make a good guess where it's going. Now, someone can always come along and dig a ditch and change that flow of water—but honestly, you'd be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives."
Like I said, the problem with possibly omnipotent and omniscient deities with information sources you cant comprehend is that you dont know what part of an apparent fumble was the first step in a plan thats been plotted over generations, or what their goal is.
Not until you reach the endpoint, whatever it is.
I dont agree.
The Maiar have entirely too much freedom of action, even in the latter days of Middle Earth, to be the same cosmic tier as angels in the Dresdenverse. Melian had a husband and daughter, Gandalf is running around getting into sword fights, Saruman is setting himself up as a feudal lord, and never mind Sauron and the Balrogs.
I will note that while people may define Hell as the absence of God, that doesnt mean that God is ignorant of whats happening there. Same in this setting.
She should.
Bonnie was not born of sacrifice, nor was she a gift passed along. To the best of my knowledge, Lash choosing to die for Dresden had no connection to her being born or instantiated. Lash deciding she was a person who could make her own decisions instead of just being a proxy for the Fallen Angel Lasciel probably did, though.
The White God isnt really relevant to the game anyway.
He might be framed omnipotent and omniscient in the series mythology, but he's never taken an active hand in events onscreen that we know of.
And angels barely appear. When we see the Denarians onscreen, the Fallen themselves almost never take the foreground. Lucifer makes a play in Small Favor, but he's offscreen and in a support role to the Denarians. Loyal angels not-named Uriel only showed up onscreen in Ghost Story. Mac is only confirmed as an angel in Battlegrounds, and he is almost entirely scenery.
Even the monstrously powerful and knowledgeable archangelUriel, who makes no claim to perfection, appears infrequently and plays no active role in events. He's a quest giver, not a player.
Vote closed
He might? It strikes me as surprising, honestly.
Michael holds Harry's confidence about the coin, and given how much Harry was reluctant to disclose this to his close friend, waiting for three and a half years even though the deed saved this friend's young son, Michael wouldn't betray this confidence, especially to someone who is not sufficiently close to Harry, unless he would have really weighty reasons.
And Charity thinking well of Harry because of that is not likely enough to be such a reason. Given her existing biases towards magic in general and towards Harry in particular, which Michael knows about, it's actually quite probable that she would not think better of him knowing this, unconsciously self-justifying her position by taking new info in the light of her existing disposition. Something like:
The deed was heroic, but that doesn't detract from the fact that now Harry is not only dangerous because of magic, but also because he is a potential Denarian. Harry's situation is unprecedented in that nobody has lived with a shadow for this long, but precedent shows that sooner or later, he might take up the coin in full, and it's something to be safeguarded against.
So, weighing this uncertainty of Charity thinking better of Harry against the certainty of betraying confidence of his close friend, wouldn't it be more reasonable for Michael to firmly tell Charity that the identity of the person in question is not for him to divulge, while trying to allay her worries by saying that it is handled and that he trusts, and trusts in, the person in question?
Edit: Oh, I see the vote is closed. Just in case it's relevant to already written parts of the update, that's not in any shape of form me trying to unduly influence your writing DP.
You have to remember Michael is not actually perfect, either in reading others or in resisting pressure, he is a good man doing his (very impressive) best.
Or Uriel was bullshitting Harry to make him feel better.
- Location
- washington
thats highly doubtful especially given supporting word of gods about their powers. Like quite honestly its a stupid comment to make can't we just take shit at face value or I don't fucking know the wog about galaxy busting bullshit. Like sure maybe not here but seriously arguing that uriel the arch angel is lying and their hyped is stupid.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
Yes - that's exactly what I was trying to articulate! If we do so we are effectively voting "yes" to revealing Harry's secret, just with extra steps. There's still a risk of such happening with my idea, but the more brief, blunt and vague we are, the more likely we are to give an immediately unacceptable answer to Charity, which puts Michael on the spot to explain, and he could well just lay all the cards on the table right now (he's almost certainly going to reveal more than we would be comfortable with at this stage).
Still breaks Harry's confidence, which if we were going to do anyway it would be better for us to at least help explain, instead of leaving Michael on his own to do so.
Alas, what's done is done, now we must hope that the dice make up for our somewhat of a non-answer.
I'm sorry if I come off somewhat salty about these results, it just frustrates me that it seems we are effectively just voting to do the opposite of what we intended (respecting Harry's secret), just in a more round-about way - we have no control or (certain) knowledge of what Michael might feel pressured/obligated to say in order to explain/elaborate (its his wife being concerned for what their daughter might do, after all), which would likely need us to perform damage control and give a more comprehensive answer to Charity in a subsequent vote anyway!!
Last edited:
I'm ambivalent on possibility of Michael divulging Harry's secrets, that's his life and his conscience, and I'll happily take him distracting Charity for a bit of time to continue questioning Uriel.
And if Charity would continue to be unreasonable about this to Molly, we should just tell her we'll talk about this later, after we had properly seen the guest out of the house.
The arguments to placate her are like at the start of the quest, she can't preclude Molly doing good even if it would put her in danger, even more so now when Molly is more knowledgeable, experienced and prepared and is 18.
And if Charity would continue to be unreasonable about this to Molly, we should just tell her we'll talk about this later, after we had properly seen the guest out of the house.
The arguments to placate her are like at the start of the quest, she can't preclude Molly doing good even if it would put her in danger, even more so now when Molly is more knowledgeable, experienced and prepared and is 18.
Winning Vote
Arc 9 Post 5: Riddles Answered, Riddles Not
Riddles Answered, Riddles Not
18th of November 2006 A.D.
"Not my secret to tell mom," you wait the requisite four or five seconds you know it takes her to formulate an answer to stonewalling her like this then you glance to your left mentally apologizing for throwing him under the buss. "I'm pretty sure dad knows too."
Thankfully that is enough, for now at least, though from the ramrod straight way she is sitting you suspect she is going to have a lot of questions when this is over. Maybe this will distract her. "He Who Walks Unbowed called me the heir of something, someone. What do you know about The Emp.."
"No," the word is spoken in a conversational tone and yet with the finality of an avalanche.
'No' as in he can't answer, won't answer? Looking for tells in his face, his posture is as fruitless as doing so in his voice , makes sense you guess he's not actually here. Though thinking about it the fact that he cut you off means he at least knew what you were going to say so at the very least he knows something, he's just not sharing.
With a smile that looks perhaps a touch sheepish, you nod and move on to the next question that comes to mind: "Things behind the elders of the Black Court also that or...?"
"No."
Part of you wonders if he had expected a barrage of questions, after all he had asked dad to tell you not to point the Crown at him or any other angel, but it is still like trying to read a rock, a stone tablet with only one word written on it maybe. Dad had certainly been expecting it, he seems reasonably relaxed while your mom looks like she is considering putting her hand over your mouth like that time when five year old you started to ask a pregnant lady at church how the baby got in there.
"Can you at least tell me what it's called? I have been thinking of it as a Crown, but it's not just that really, that is what I see with..."
"It is an Exaltation," As soon he he says the word something clicks at the back of your mind, that would make you Exalted, one of the Celestial Exalted Wait isn't 'Empyreal ' another word for 'of the heavens'? The living city in the vision did not seem very heavenly though. Uriel isn't done though: "It is moment and mechanism imperishable forged that mortals might achieve not merely what is difficult but that which is impossible."
Huh... that sounds almost like the Sword, uneasy as the thought makes you. It always allows your dad to match any foe, gives him a fighting chance even for those who should be far beyond any mortal man. Questions feeding into questions, of them you pluck one you hope Uriel might be inclined to answer. "Are there more of them around?"
"Yes." Another single word answer, another rhetorical precipice, though one you had gotten something from. Odin is not looking in vain, scary at that thought is.
That is about as far as you are liable to get with this line of questioning so you shift gears. "Can the Yama Kings be redeemed?"
"Some have fallen away from their purpose less than others.No one is truly irredeemable save that one who thinks himself so and will not be swayed." There is just a moment hesitation there, an inflection even more flat than usually and in dark eyes a light of sorrow born. It is not hard to guess who he is thinking of, daunting yes, but not hard.
"What happens...?" Just asking your next question sounds a bit mad. "When people of the Five Courts choose to pass on. Do they go where everyone else does? Everyone mortal I mean?"
"Yes," Uriel nods and you breathe s sigh of relief that they did not just go nowhere.
"Is the Holy Spirit.. er present inside my soul? For the record that was a weird to say as it no doubt is to hear," you add for your parents' benefit. Alas neither of them even cracks a smile.
"You test me as I have not been tested in a long while Margret."
There is a small panicked part of you that really wants to apologize, but it is a lot quieter than the demon who points out he is not done talking. Thus you keep you keep quiet, only leaning a little closer to the edge of your seat. Thus the archangel speaks: "The full answer I cannot give and the short answer would be deceptive so I shall give neither here and now."
"So dad can't take Ammorachius with him?"
Your mother isn't looking any happier with what you are doing and saying, but she keeps her cool.
"Not unless it were desperately needed in the defense of that realm and even then at great peril." Uriel pauses to see if you have any more questions, which is very nice of him, all non-answers aside, then he finishes his coffee, calls is 'excellently bitter' then bids you all good night and departs.
As soon as the sound of steps had faded Mom starts: "Molly what were you thinking?"
"Well for that last one I was thinking of allowing dad to retreat out of a bad fight without surrendering Ammorachius to whatever he's fighting," you shoot back and she deflates a little, enough that you have time to explain yourself. "The way I see it an angel is not going to stick around just to be polite, he could have vanished before I got the first word out so I might as well ask every question that comes to mind. The worst that can happen is I look stupid which... well I imagine everyone looked stupid to such as him at one point or another."
"She does have a point Charity," your father offers, twining his fingers around hers as they step away from the door. "Not always a very comfortable one, but that is the nature of points isn't it?"
She just looks at him for a moment, a little amused, a lot worried and over all worn out. "Is that a parable or a pun?"
"Yes," he answers serenely... as you hear the distinct sound of a familiar floorboard creaking beyond the hallway door, familiar because you were usually the one stepping on it.
What do you do?
[] Just go to bed, you haven't slept in days, whoever was listening in should have run already
[] Try to distract mom and dad
-[] Write in how
[] Write in
OOC: Tomorrow is going to be working on the Last Station until Broken Seeker contacts you so if you have any ideas on how to improve it given the resources you have just gotten access to now would be the time to offer them.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
Uriel's answers, while probably as good as we could expect, were worth a shot despite the mixed helpfulness of his answers (you missed 100% of the shots you don't take and all that), although we only got our Exaltation half-right - as it was originally Celestial (at least in design) before Primordial corruption/modification, if I understand correctly - but at least we are on the right track and have started to suspect the (at least thematic) discrepancies between the Wicked City and what is traditionally considered "heavenly".
Thankfully, my worse fears did not come to pass (with a too short response to Charity), but we should probably do something to make up for the stress we are causing our parents - I'll start thinking on it but I'm sure others will have better ideas.
Thankfully, my worse fears did not come to pass (with a too short response to Charity), but we should probably do something to make up for the stress we are causing our parents - I'll start thinking on it but I'm sure others will have better ideas.
Last edited:
Rolls
Attempt to Read Heaven's Spook vs He is concerned enough to proc something
Recovery from the occult botch... pretty good, by which I mean inhumanly graceful, but given the target that is what pretty good looks like
Hear the word Exaltation and... you get a decent number of connections.
What is Uriel feeling? Sad the answer is sad.
Willpower not to immediately apologize... Urge of the Forbidden is strong
Charity at the edge of her patience... holds even though it was DC 9
Explaining your reasoning... works like a charm
Perception to hear a familiar sound... demonic hearing is a go
Attempt to Read Heaven's Spook vs He is concerned enough to proc something
Recovery from the occult botch... pretty good, by which I mean inhumanly graceful, but given the target that is what pretty good looks like
Hear the word Exaltation and... you get a decent number of connections.
What is Uriel feeling? Sad the answer is sad.
Willpower not to immediately apologize... Urge of the Forbidden is strong
Charity at the edge of her patience... holds even though it was DC 9
Explaining your reasoning... works like a charm
Perception to hear a familiar sound... demonic hearing is a go
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
We shouldn't deprive a young jawa of this potentially valuable learning experience, nor shield them from the consequences of being nosey little rugrats.
[X] Just go to bed, you haven't slept in days, whoever was listening in should have run already
[X] Just go to bed, you haven't slept in days, whoever was listening in should have run already
I wonder why this knowledge was worth hiding. He had options between spilling the beans on all of Creation and giving a little bit of detail on the Yozi.
Well, the obvious way would be to get some schematics for autonomous outposts (the machine spirit we took with us might have some from their (his?) time managing it), and probably using a design for wyrmtrain for Porter's new body. Possibly using some of the techniques for environmental protections from the courts.
Do we just suggest those now, or vote for them? Because if we are voting, I'll have to think a bit on how to formulate them. I definitely want to invoke that -1 DC from our new signature.
Iris does have access to those schematics yes. We might have a vote depending on how interested people are and what suggestions are made, otherwise we will move more quickly to hunting Arianna.
Signatures are only present in Shintai for whatever reason. Solars and Abyssals get to use their boosted charms whenever, so balance is a hard claim to make.
In our particular case it fits because of the signature we chose, but all of them were written that way so it's not like we had another option or some alternate mode to take for the same charm.
I stay by my guess that Uriel believed us to be an off-colored solar. Which we are, in a way.
Could I get a citation on that? Obviously "change landscape when manifesting shintai" would only be present in shintai, but I am not so sure about -1 DC effect. You get "X effect when you are in shintai" for most signature descriptions, but this one goes in two separate sentences:
The second, bolded one, makes no mention of shintai being required.
It is very clearly referencing the features that appears when in Shintai form.
This, but for a more specific citation:
ExWoD page 198.
The charm selected only gains whatever's listed under the signature text while in Shintai, and any homebrew additions are supposed to work the same way.
Thanks. That's a bit of a shame. Still, we could use this while inside our kingdom (because we can maintain shintai indefinitely there, it adds dexterity dice, and we roll dex for at least some crafting).