Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Why did the White God let them rebel in the first place?
Mysterious ways obviously :V

Thing is when you have a massively superintelligent entity with eidetic memory and precognition doing things, even apparent dumb shit might be part of some literally galaxy brain strategy.
I mean, do recall that Nicodemus canonically commanded the defenses of the Outer Gates when Mab was new.

The closest example I can think of is the Creation Myth of Arda in the Silmarillion, where Eru and the Ainur sang Creation into being. And where everything Morgoth did to fuck up the Great Music furthered the Ainulindale.

Massively superintendent does not have to mean incomprehensible, Theion was massively superintendent and he lost. This is not just a Dresdenverse quest/story it is an Exalted one and one of the themes of Exalted is that power and knowledge don't and can't make you perfect in all things, only in some.

It is worth remembering that the thing that tripped up the Primordials way back when was free will, the free will of the gods and of the mortals who became part of the Exalted Host Autochthon would never have dared move against his siblings on his own and Gaia was moved by her love for Luna. Now we have a seemingly omnipotent being, or near enough for government work, who is going out of His way to protect free will.
 
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Its not equivalent to fighting the Primordial War, its equivalent to killing a Primordial.
Or, in Tolkien terms, you are talking about killing one of the Valar.
In a setting where even Morgoth is still alive, just imprisoned.
I do know my Tolkien, and in those terms everyone below the big four super-Angels would be more like a Maiar than a Valar.

And those have been destroyed by mortals (well, Elves at least) a few times in the stories.
They couldn't be truly killed, but their physical form shattered and their spirit diminished.

And we could actually kill, once we had won the physical fight.

As for the soulgaze, those are ultimatly still metaphors in Harry's mind, not absolute facts, but even so, a cliff-sized face is maybe bigger, than our spaceship, but very unlikely to win a fight against the USS Godslayer at full power, to compare the metaphors.
 
Massively superintendent does not have to mean incomprehensible, Theion was massively superintendent and he lost. This is not just a Dresdenverse quest/story it is an Exalted one and one of the themes of Exalted is that power and knowledge don't and can't make you perfect in all things, only in some.

It is worth remembering that the thing that tripped up the Primordials way back when was free will, the free will of the gods and of the mortals who became part of the Exalted Host Autochthon would never have dared move against his siblings on his own and Gaia was moved by her love for Luna. Now we have a seemingly omnipotent being, or near enough for government work, who is going out of His way to protect free will.
It really does.
When you have someone who is taking decisions based on potential events that might take place in thousands or millions of years time? A lot of stuff will look dumb in the moment.

Theion was limited to within his themes.
Thats the conceit of Primordials: they only see shit through whatever themes, whatever prisms they were built around.
The White God, and the angels arent that blinkered by canon.

Its not that angels dont have free will; a lot of the things Uriel does suggests they do.
Its that they cant exercise power outside some unknown limits, by the rules set up by the White God.

Your story.
But this isnt just an Exalted story, but an WoD one. And one of the themes of some of the books here, in particular Kindred of the East, is very much that there was a Creator who is playing multidimensional chess while everyone else is playing checkers.
 
I do know my Tolkien, and in those terms everyone below the big four super-Angels would be more like a Maiar than a Valar.
And those have been destroyed by mortals (well, Elves at least) a few times in the stories.
They couldn't be truly killed, but their physical form shattered and their spirit diminished.

And we could actually kill, once we had won the physical fight.

As for the soulgaze, those are ultimatly still metaphors in Harry's mind, not absolute facts, but even so, a cliff-sized face is maybe bigger, than our spaceship, but very unlikely to win a fight against the USS Godslayer at full power, to compare the metaphors.
The 14x Valar who entered Creation to help steward it had uncounted numbers of counterparts who stayed out of Arda with Eru.
Maiar are not Valar, and even the Maiar when killed didnt wholly die.
There was always a spirit left.

Maiar-equivalents in this setting would be people in the general power-tier of the Queens.
 
It really does.
When you have someone who is taking decisions based on potential events that might take place in thousands or millions of years time? A lot of stuff will look dumb in the moment.

Theion was limited to within his themes.
Thats the conceit of Primordials: they only see shit through whatever themes, whatever prisms they were built around.
The White God, and the angels arent that blinkered by canon.

Its not that angels dont have free will; a lot of the things Uriel does suggests they do.
Its that they cant exercise power outside some unknown limits, by the rules set up by the White God.

Your story.
But this isnt just an Exalted story, but an WoD one. And one of the themes of some of the books here, in particular Kindred of the East, is very much that there was a Creator who is playing multidimensional chess while everyone else is playing checkers.

It is true Kindred of the East does do the whole God Works in Mysterious Ways element and there will be a lot of that here as far as it goes... But you guys are playing an Exalted with the Crown of Eyes not some sweaty corpse with delusions of grandeur, unraveling the greatest of all mysteries is something Molly strives towards.

Also I am not sure if I would call the One/God in WoD perfect there is the whole Cain and Lilith thing, but that is not relevant to this quest.
 
The 14x Valar who entered Creation to help steward it had uncounted numbers of counterparts who stayed out of Arda with Eru.
Maiar are not Valar, and even the Maiar when killed didnt wholly die.
There was always a spirit left.

Maiar-equivalents in this setting would be people in the general power-tier of the Queens.
Nah, if we are talking about cosmic significance then Valar as Archangels and Maiar as Angels definitly fits.

In terms of powerlevels I have no idea of course, Tolkien doesn't care about that very much.

And I know that the Maiar didn't truly die, I said so in the very post you quoted.
Also I am not sure if I would call the One/God in WoD perfect there is the whole Cain and Lilith thing, but that is not relevant to this quest.
Let's see through the franchises:
Vampire: Propably fucked up in the backround, might not even exist.
Werwolf: Not relevant, the creator-beings are Weaver, Wyld and Wyrm and of those two are mad and one is crippled
Mage: Everything is true, but only through the believes of the people and the reality-defying power of Mages and Avatars, so God propably exists, but is not that big a deal
Demon: God might have a mysterious plan, but he seems to be absent and let that plan run itself.
KotE: God might have a mysterious plan, but since the Thousand Immortals were punished it looks like he's not intervening anymore
Changeling: Not relevant, I think?
Mummy: Not relevant except if he was masquerading as Ra, but then that wouldn't be a great showing.
Hunter: Might have a plan, seems to be acting on it by empowering random people, propably the most good and pro-humanity portrayal of God?
 
Also I am not sure if I would call the One/God in WoD perfect there is the whole Cain and Lilith thing, but that is not relevant to this quest.
Well, he DID drive a hard bargain to make us agree not to pay attention to the deity behind the curtain, so I fully expect Him to have some large clay feet anyways.

Speaking of questions we might ask, would it be appropiate to ask Uriel about how to give a visa/guest rights for our hell to Amoraccius (with appropiate caveats for being accompanied by Michael, etc)? Giving Molly's dad a last chance retreat path to a safe location that doesn't force him to leave the Sword behind would be invaluable for her peace of mind.

And since we are at it, given that Uriel was in our house and mentioned both Lucfer and the Denarians, could we after he leaves use the objects that he touched as a focus to ask some questions, not about God that we agreed not to, but about the other side?
 
[X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
-[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
-[X] Dad knows
-[X]STUNT: "Not my secret to share, Mom" you reply slowly, turning to hold your mother's alarmed eyes. Casting around for additional reassurance you can spare, you continue "Im pretty sure Dad knows though."
 
Speaking of questions we might ask, would it be appropiate to ask Uriel about how to give a visa/guest rights for our hell to Amoraccius (with appropiate caveats for being accompanied by Michael, etc)? Giving Molly's dad a last chance retreat path to a safe location that doesn't force him to leave the Sword behind would be invaluable for her peace of mind.
That's the most relevant question indeed. And one that is most appropriate to direct to Uriel, as it directly involves interaction with Celestial Bureaucracy.

Also, it occurs to me - if Lash's potential to become her own girl was not planned by the Fallen, and Uriel pretty much directly says that, there are several potential scenarios:
1) Denarian Lash. If Lash has Free Will, and Uriel pretty strongly implied she does, she could potentially pick up her own coin. Even if she doesn't, and is fully on the side of angels, if denarians learn that their shadows can be made autonomous and capable of picking up the coin, they could come up with a wholly new strategy. Force a coin into someone's hands, arrange the situation where Molly or someone else exorcises the resulting shadow, have shadow pick up the coin.
2) Knight Lash. No, seriously, redeamed Lash is Sanya++. I could see it.

In any case, we might want to fake Lash's death, rather than just freeing her. Because I can almost guarantee she'll have Enemy: denarians background at 5 dots.
 
It is true Kindred of the East does do the whole God Works in Mysterious Ways element and there will be a lot of that here as far as it goes... But you guys are playing an Exalted with the Crown of Eyes not some sweaty corpse with delusions of grandeur, unraveling the greatest of all mysteries is something Molly strives towards.

Well, to be fair, it does seem like some of the Wan Kuei may have transcended their fallen state and once more serve at the right hand of god, so may have a better idea.

Unfortunately, they've quite literally transcended, and as they're Ministers in Heaven (or Hell) it's hard to ask what's up as they'll have signed NDAs.

I've mentioned it before, but the Song of Shadows Dharma would be very, very interested in the secrets that Molly can teach, even more than the other Orthodox dharmas.
 
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[X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
-[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
-[X] Dad knows
-[X]STUNT: "Not my secret to share, Mom" you reply slowly, turning to hold your mother's alarmed eyes. Casting around for additional reassurance you can spare, you continue "Im pretty sure Dad knows though."
 
To be honest I find the visa thing kind of annoying and potentially dangerous.

It's annoying because it's a thematic and interesting limitation we just learned about which adds something we have to manage in play. Limitations like that are as much a part of what make the descriptions come alive in the game as the new options presented by an ability are.

It's potentially dangerous because the hell is Molly's world soul, and being a hell is a fundamental part of the charm. If here and now that means "a place without god" trying to change that sounds problematic. Especially given the warning we just got about attempting to imprison the Fallen. That's on brand, but too big a task for us right now.

Letting a sword through would be the same scale of task, but working directly against the grain of Molly's soul.


Micheal is no more at risk now than he was yesterday, and Heaven is evidently really good at keeping the swords/knights safe. It's not perfect, but let's not infantilize a guy who picked a fight with a Dragon and won.

with two daughters and possibly two baby mamas (Susan/Maggie and Lash/Bonnie) hilarious.
Technically speaking Harry is the baby mama in Bonnie's case. I haven't given up on the idea of making him a maternity beanie enchanted to reduce the headache issue. :V

More seriously it's worth noting she probably won't exist if Lash doesn't sacrifice herself for the sake of true love.
The closest example I can think of is the Creation Myth of Arda in the Silmarillion, where Eru and the Ainur sang Creation into being. And where everything Morgoth did to fuck up the Great Music furthered the Ainulindale.
Personally I favor a scorpion and fox Aesop style answer for this issue in the quest.

Something* brought elements of the white god's internal mythos into conflict with each other and this was the result. Free will is likely a part of it, and was the side that won the war, but learning the precise nature of what the other concept was would tell us a lot about who the guy was and who he is right now.

The white god is super intelligent, but appealing to some ineffable plan isn't a helpful argument. It can't be falsified because it starts with the idea that what's happening can't be understood.

Maybe the broad situation really can't be, but if that's the case it's equally valid to suggest it's all roiling chaos or barely under control as anything else. If you can't understand it how would you tell the difference?

Edit:

The other problem here is the impact of that argument on analyzing the rest of the situation independent of its internal issues.

There's evidence of arguable failures and limits on the white god. The rebellion, his reason for allowing the denarians to do what they do, the existence of his army of seraphs but Winter being left to guard the Outer Gates. Stuff like that.

Not all of it is necessarily a failure, since context could exist to explain it, but if we assign all of it as intentional parts of his ineffable plan it immediately turns the argument into something at least vaguely circular.

We can reasonably assume that the white god has superhuman stats in everything, but that doesn't make him perfect alone.

The support for the claim that he's superhuman enough to be perfect at this stuff is the existence of his plan, which we know he has because he's so superhumanly intelligent.

Any evidence that might look like it casts doubt on that is actually proof of how impossible to understand his plan is; even his potential failures are on purpose and will lead to his ultimate victory.
 
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was the side that won the war
I am fairly sure that destroying free will was never a goal of any part of that conflict. If I was to guess some angels wanted to / tried to get free will of their own. Somehow. Which actually makes sense, kinda? Let's assume that White God's mythos as a Primordial-like being (with angels being subsouls or something equivalent) is all about free will, yet angels themselves lack it (being subsouls). When interacting with mortals, they get "infected" with free will. Now, a paradox occurs - the exercise of Free Wil by angels infringes on the Free Will of Mortals, which is sacrosant. The Fallen (angels with Free Will) cannot be destroyed because that is also an action directly aimed at destroying Free Will, which White God's mythos doesn't allow. So, you get this whole conflict and compromise, where Fallen have some manner of Free Will (Lash said in this quest that one benefit of her state is that she can be hypocritical), but their ability to exercise it against mortals is limited.

I am not articulating this very well, but I think it's a version of a paradox of tolerance, only experienced by a Primordial, rather than a society.
 
1) Denarian Lash. If Lash has Free Will, and Uriel pretty strongly implied she does, she could potentially pick up her own coin. Even if she doesn't, and is fully on the side of angels, if denarians learn that their shadows can be made autonomous and capable of picking up the coin, they could come up with a wholly new strategy. Force a coin into someone's hands, arrange the situation where Molly or someone else exorcises the resulting shadow, have shadow pick up the coin.

2) Knight Lash. No, seriously, redeamed Lash is Sanya++. I could see it.
Both extremly unlikely, as whatever Lash is or may become, a regular human is not really an option.

She's much more likely to be some kind of spirit, embodied or not.
 
I am fairly sure that destroying free will was never a goal of any part of that conflict. If I was to guess some angels wanted to / tried to get free will of their own. Somehow. Which actually makes sense, kinda? Let's assume that White God's mythos as a Primordial-like being (with angels being subsouls or something equivalent) is all about free will, yet angels themselves lack it (being subsouls). When interacting with mortals, they get "infected" with free will. Now, a paradox occurs - the exercise of Free Wil by angels infringes on the Free Will of Mortals, which is sacrosant. The Fallen (angels with Free Will) cannot be destroyed because that is also an action directly aimed at destroying Free Will, which White God's mythos doesn't allow. So, you get this whole conflict and compromise, where Fallen have some manner of Free Will (Lash said in this quest that one benefit of her state is that she can be hypocritical), but their ability to exercise it against mortals is limited.

I am not articulating this very well, but I think it's a version of a paradox of tolerance, only experienced by a Primordial, rather than a society.
I don't think we have enough information to tell at this point. Your idea here is as good as any, but I suspect that we're going to need more information on the fallen to really tell.

In particular getting an idea of who fell and what their nature/duties were beforehand would be helpful.

Getting Lash into a position where she has to truthfully explain what she Fell for would be a good way to start without breaking our promise.

Lash may not know everything Lasciel does, but I doubt something as formative as that could be left out without fundamentally changing the fork relative to the source.
Both extremly unlikely, as whatever Lash is or may become, a regular human is not really an option.

She's much more likely to be some kind of spirit, embodied or not.
She also has a long history with Heaven.

Not being a monstrous bastard isn't the same as agreeing with Heaven and being willingly to serve it directly again.
 
I would perfer Molly try to get true faith to deal with the fallen angels, but unfortunately it is the one thing in world of darkness that doesnt get purchased with XP. It would be a hard counter toward being manipulated or controlled by supernatural means. Even at low levels its really nasty to evil creatures.

I just remember, she can try to find holy artifacts. They range from 1 dot to 5 dots. She could find a few and wear them or put them into her soul, that should allow her to have true faith without having to develop it. At least for a while.
 
I would perfer Molly try to get true faith to deal with the fallen angels, but unfortunately it is the one thing in world of darkness that doesnt get purchased with XP. It would be a hard counter toward being manipulated or controlled by supernatural means. Even at low levels its really nasty to evil creatures.

I just remember, she can try to find holy artifacts. They range from 1 dot to 5 dots. She could find a few and wear them or put them into her soul, that should allow her to have true faith without having to develop it. At least for a while.
I don't think true faith would permanently harm or help the fallen even with 5 dots my dude.
 
I would perfer Molly try to get true faith to deal with the fallen angels, but unfortunately it is the one thing in world of darkness that doesnt get purchased with XP. It would be a hard counter toward being manipulated or controlled by supernatural means. Even at low levels its really nasty to evil creatures.
We do hard-counter more manipulation and control than any level of True Faith can.

We can make ourselves immune to all mental effects, it is (constantly and without activation) impossible to make us act against our intimacies, we are inherently immune to possession and recently we also aquired a Charm that allows us to reject any curse, transformation, transportation or unmaking of ourselves we don't wish to accept.

True faith is childsplay compared to that.
 
We do hard-counter more manipulation and control than any level of True Faith can.

We can make ourselves immune to all mental effects, it is (constantly and without activation) impossible to make us act against our intimacies, we are inherently immune to possession and recently we also aquired a Charm that allows us to reject any curse, transformation, transportation or unmaking of ourselves we don't wish to accept.

True faith is childsplay compared to that.

True Faith can do all these things, but not to this level and not consistently. In a way the use of charms is more like True Faith than any other kind of present magic, though that might be because Infenal charms are even more like high end demonic investiture. :V
 
Looks like, counting plain and stunted votes together, simple 'Dad knows' is winning handily 11 to 6.
Adhoc vote count started by Earth-Destroyer on Aug 28, 2023 at 11:52 PM, finished with 78 posts and 18 votes.

  • [X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
    -[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
    -[X] "Dad knows."
    [X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
    -[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
    -[X] "It's not my place to tell, but Dad knows and I wouldn't do anything without his full backing and involvement."
    [X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
    -[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
    -[X] "Dad knows."
    -[X]STUNT: "Not my secret to share, Mom" you reply slowly, turning to hold your mother's alarmed eyes. Casting around for additional reassurance you can spare, you continue "Im pretty sure Dad knows though."
    [X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
    -[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
 
Please don't leave it at just "Dad knows", it will bring up more questions than answers for Charity which we will then have to deal with immediately, when we have a potentially tight schedule to get this questioning back on track as to maximise what we can get from Uriel before he has to attend other matters.

I'm not saying my proposal is necessarily better, but it gives Charity a more comprehensive reassurance to chew on/work with/think about she won't immediately punch holes through.
 
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Please don't leave it at just "Dad knows", it will bring up more questions than answers for Charity which we will then have to deal with immediately, when we have a potentially tight schedule to get this questioning back on track as to maximise what we can get from Uriel before he has to attend other matters.

I'm not saying my proposal is necessarily better, but it gives Charity a more comprehensive reassurance to chew on/work with/think about she won't immediately punch holes through.

Or she just might ask Michael. 'Dad knows' is throwing him under the Charity shaped bus and he might just tell her if pressed, along with the details of how Harry got the coin, hoping that this is enough for her to think well of Harry.
 
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