Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1)You cant kill them.
Not easily, not without a fuckton of collateral damage.
They're Fallen Angels, with the focus on Angel. Entities like that dont die easy, even to Exalts; ask the Neverborn.


2) The answer is right there in Butcher's reply:

And in Uriel's warning to Molly:

Thats about as close as the Archangel of Free Will will come to telling you hands off.
I'm not sure killing angels would do something as bad as neverborn or anything like it. Mind you they may serve literal purposes for the universe which would suddenly be imbalanced but I figure on a certain level their just completely different types of beings even if in power their similar to plenty of things.
 
Killing them certainly wouldn't be easy.
But at least we could be sure that we can make it stick, if we ever got to that point.

And Uriel's warning is specifically about keeping the Coins imprisoned in our Hell, not about attempts to destroy them, or their inhabitants.
1) In order to kill five or six Primordials and their subsouls in 2E, while scaring the other ten plus Primordials into surrender?

The Primordial War-era Deliberative required almost a thousand Celestial Exalts, a million plus Dragonbloods, and tens of millions of mortals, Dragon Kings, Jadeborn and spirits, and the support of two Primordials.
Plus all the infrastructure that was built up for that war.

The casualties were immense; even the Celestial Exalts had many of their number die multiple times over.
And even then, we got Neverborn and Hekatonkhires from the dead, because entities of that weight dont die easy.
Molly is one Infernal. And not even an elder Infernal.

That is not Infernal Exalt business.
It may be baby Primordial territory, maybe, but its not Infernal Exalt territory. When we get to a point where we can comprehend the ramifications of something like that, then we talk.

Not to mention that the Catholic girl who went to Sunday School would consider that there might be a reason they were cast down after rebelling instead of being unmade.

===
2)Uriel's warning is about giving Lucifer a justification for more freedom of action.
He used the phrasing "beyond mortal temptation" deliberately.



I'm not sure killing angels would do something as bad as neverborn or anything like it. Mind you they may serve literal purposes for the universe which would suddenly be imbalanced but I figure on a certain level their just completely different types of beings even if in power their similar to plenty of things.
I forget many of y'all didnt go to Sunday School.
In Christian mythology, when Lucifer rebelled against God, Michael cast him down along with a third of the angels of heaven.

Mankind being cast out of the Garden of Eden can be traced back to Lucifer tempting Eve.
The Flood can be attributed to angels coming down to Earth and fucking around with human women, creating a class of giants who dominated the Earth and forcing the White God to do a server reset.

Angels fucking around metaphorically and literally can be a very bad thing for anyone in the vicinity.

You have to figure that when Lucy and his supporters were cast out of Heaven, they werent destroyed for one of three reasons
1)The White God couldnt do it
2)The White God didnt want to do it
3) They fulfilled a purpose even after Falling

And in the Dresden Files, angels are system killers.


To quote Butcher:
Are Mab and Titania equal to the Archangels in terms of raw power? What about the Mothers?
Nowhere close. Like, /nowhere/ close. Angels are so far beyond a being like Mab that there's just no comparison to be made. Mab might be able to, if she really worked at it, enchant the world into an ice age. But an angel could destroy the SUN.

I mean, for you and me, there's no difference between them. But relative to one another, there's a HUGE difference. The angels have far more power.

But.

Mab has far more /freedom/ in what she can do with her power. Bigger and stronger doesn't mean you win the fight all by itself. Ask a hawk the next time you see it being run out of town by songbirds. Mab might have less muscle, but she can actually apply her muscle to a huge variety of situations--angels exist behind limits hardwired into their very beings.

Angels are, in this instance, kind of like a super powerful AI. Within the world of the computer, it's not a force that can be effectively resisted. It runs the place.

But that same AI can only do what it's been told to do--and Mab is a user with mid-level admin access. She can't command or delete those AIs, but she knows why they were made, how they work--and how to get around them if necessary.
Mab isn't stronger than an angel. But she is, in most situations, far more powerful.
But MY answer was going to be to say that angelic powers simply exist on an order of magnitude beyond that of anything happening on a level a mortal could understand. I mean, who actually has more power in a production: the lead character, or the lowly stage hand who is running his lights and audio. That person playing the character might get the limelight, but the dude in all black is running the show.

A lowly footsoldier angel is a power of an order of magnitude greater than all the local-scale supernatural beings we've seen in the Dresden Files put together. I mean, it wouldn't be a fight. The angel wins, hands down.

Except the angel wouldn't ever win, because more than likely the angel would never be allowed to fight. It's a being of such power that it exists behind strict walls of control, limits beyond which it simply cannot, by its very nature, tread. When an angel IS allowed to smite something, you get rains of fire, flaming cities and pillars of salt. But mostly they are epic beings for epic times and epic actions. It isn't their place to interfere in the lives of the beings of the universe--angels exist to preserve the nature and order of that universe just so all those little beings can do what they do.

Uriel is being a cheeky bugger and taking terrible chances, doing what he is with the Swords, trying to get involved in mortal affairs without actually getting involved. Only Lucifer has danced that close to the line before, and that one didn't work out so well.
The least angels are supposed to be off the scale. Just that they are bound by rules of what they can and cannot do.
I dont think we want to test even a Fallen Angel's latitude of action.
 
In order to kill five or six Primordials and their subsouls in 2E, while scaring the other ten plus Primordials into surrender?

The Primordial War-era Deliberative required almost a thousand Celestial Exalts, a million plus Dragonbloods, and tens of millions of mortals, Dragon Kings, Jadeborn and spirits, and the support of two Primordials.
Plus all the infrastructure that was built up for that war.

The casualties were immense; even the Celestial Exalts had many of their number die multiple times over.
And even then, we got Neverborn and Hekatonkhires from the dead, because entities of that weight dont die easy.
Molly is one Infernal. And not even an elder Infernal.
Okay, first off, killing a Fallen Angel is extremly unlikely to be equivalent to the Primordial War.

In practical terms, the Angels are not the sole creators of reality that never had to consider their own death, like the Primordials were.

It would be extremly weird if God never considered the possibility of angels dying, especially if he remembered the ages before.
So I would bet that reality as it is now can deal with the death of an angel, rather than spit out more Neverborn from their corpses.

Second in terms of power,I honestly don't know where they stand, but I'd design every Angel, fallen or not, at the upper limit of WoD spirits, Earthbound or other creatures, with only the Archangels and God falling out of the conventional mechanics.
So something a well-prepared Circle of strong Exalts could take on.
 
1) In order to kill five or six Primordials and their subsouls in 2E, while scaring the other ten plus Primordials into surrender?

The Primordial War-era Deliberative required almost a thousand Celestial Exalts, a million plus Dragonbloods, and tens of millions of mortals, Dragon Kings, Jadeborn and spirits, and the support of two Primordials.
Plus all the infrastructure that was built up for that war.

The casualties were immense; even the Celestial Exalts had many of their number die multiple times over.
And even then, we got Neverborn and Hekatonkhires from the dead, because entities of that weight dont die easy.
Molly is one Infernal. And not even an elder Infernal.

That is not Infernal Exalt business.
It may be baby Primordial territory, maybe, but its not Infernal Exalt territory. When we get to a point where we can comprehend the ramifications of something like that, then we talk.

Not to mention that the Catholic girl who went to Sunday School would consider that there might be a reason they were cast down after rebelling instead of being unmade.
Point of order, Primordial War was waged not just against Primordials, but also against mortal and immortal races loyal to them, gods loyal to them, Incarna who were still geased to them and couldn't resist the orders like "go kill those uppity mortals". It was waged from the position of weakness, as all of the Creation's infrastructure was under Primordial control to start with, and on the scale literally unimaginable due to Three Sphere Cataclysm whiping out 90% of all Creation on the conceptual level.

While I wouldn't go against Angelic host will-nilly, at least not without some exalted backup, you are overestimating their side of conflict.
 
I was kind of iffy on if I should weigh in on this but since it is based on OOC information I think a bit of WoG from me would be appropriate so we do not argue too long around literally how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. This is not DBZ, there aren't strict power levels. angels have access to levers of reality at higher levels than many other beings, but asking what a theoretical unbound angel would do does not make that much sense because their bindings are their access codes to much of that power, they are powerful because of the role they have in the machinery of the universe not in addition to it. So how powerful is a Fallen Angel? That you guys will have to look into yourselves.
 
1) In order to kill five or six Primordials and their subsouls in 2E, while scaring the other ten plus Primordials into surrender?

The Primordial War-era Deliberative required almost a thousand Celestial Exalts, a million plus Dragonbloods, and tens of millions of mortals, Dragon Kings, Jadeborn and spirits, and the support of two Primordials.
Plus all the infrastructure that was built up for that war.

The casualties were immense; even the Celestial Exalts had many of their number die multiple times over.
And even then, we got Neverborn and Hekatonkhires from the dead, because entities of that weight dont die easy.
Molly is one Infernal. And not even an elder Infernal.

That is not Infernal Exalt business.
It may be baby Primordial territory, maybe, but its not Infernal Exalt territory. When we get to a point where we can comprehend the ramifications of something like that, then we talk.

Not to mention that the Catholic girl who went to Sunday School would consider that there might be a reason they were cast down after rebelling instead of being unmade.

===
2)Uriel's warning is about giving Lucifer a justification for more freedom of action.
He used the phrasing "beyond mortal temptation" deliberately.



I forget many of y'all didnt go to Sunday School.
In Christian mythology, when Lucifer rebelled against God, Michael cast him down along with a third of the angels of heaven.

Mankind being cast out of the Garden of Eden can be traced back to Lucifer tempting Eve.
The Flood can be attributed to angels coming down to Earth and fucking around with human women, creating a class of giants who dominated the Earth and forcing the White God to do a server reset.

Angels fucking around metaphorically and literally can be a very bad thing for anyone in the vicinity.

You have to figure that when Lucy and his supporters were cast out of Heaven, they werent destroyed for one of three reasons
1)The White God couldnt do it
2)The White God didnt want to do it
3) They fulfilled a purpose even after Falling

And in the Dresden Files, angels are system killers.


To quote Butcher:


The least angels are supposed to be off the scale. Just that they are bound by rules of what they can and cannot do.
I dont think we want to test even a Fallen Angel's latitude of action.
In fairness I meant the same cause and effect of killing one like it probably wouldn't start a neverborn equivalent. Also I kind feel the foot soldier wog is probably not true of this quest simply cause its no longer a multiverse and that would make God well above maybe even all the primordials at once in power at least in what they can make since there are obviously an absurd number of angels. Also not that I said it'd be easy I wouldn't want to fight a fallen angel without being essence 5 with an appropriate loadout at least.
 
I was kind of iffy on if I should weigh in on this but since it is based on OOC information I think a bit of WoG from me would be appropriate so we do not argue too long around literally how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. This is not DBZ, there aren't strict power levels. angels have access to levers of reality at higher levels than many other beings, but asking what a theoretical unbound angel would do does not make that much sense because their bindings are their access codes to much of that power, they are powerful because of the role they have in the machinery of the universe not in addition to it. So how powerful is a Fallen Angel? That you guys will have to look into yourselves.
I don't know if this is the case here but all indications are that in canon Fallen Angel's are as bound as non-Fallen (in terms of lack of free will/choice) in that rather than absolute adherence to whatever the White God has planned they must act in opposition regardless of whether that is what the Fallen in question would desire. The fact that the Fallen can act in accordance to how much the un-Fallen do (and vice versa as evidence by Uriel's response to Lasciel's interence with Dresden) is but an extension of this.
 
[X] Plan Seraph
-[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? Are they their own people, or just a mask for the Fallen? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? Or on Earth? Or...acquired a body of their own?
-[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
-[X] Can you tell me who the Makers were, what the Makers sought to make, and what they actually ended up with?
-[X] Can you tell me what my power is called?
-[X] Are there other powers like mine around?
-[X] Can Yama Kings be fixed/redeemed?
-[X] Whatever you can tell me about the Neverborn
-[X] Do her people go on to whatever their fate of other mortals is when they choose to pass on?
-[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?
 
I don't know if this is the case here but all indications are that in canon Fallen Angel's are as bound as non-Fallen (in terms of lack of free will/choice) in that rather than absolute adherence to whatever the White God has planned they must act in opposition regardless of whether that is what the Fallen in question would desire. The fact that the Fallen can act in accordance to how much the un-Fallen do (and vice versa as evidence by Uriel's response to Lasciel's interence with Dresden) is but an extension of this.

There is certainly a symmetry in how they act, Molly knows that much from Michael.
 
Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Aug 28, 2023 at 4:39 AM, finished with 85 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Plan Seraph
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? Are they their own people, or just a mask for the Fallen? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? Or on Earth? Or...acquired a body of their own?
    -[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
    -[X] Can you tell me who the Makers were, what the Makers sought to make, and what they actually ended up with?
    -[X] Can you tell me what my power is called?
    -[X] Are there other powers like mine around?
    -[X] Can Yama Kings be fixed/redeemed?
    -[X] Whatever you can tell me about the Neverborn
    -[X] Do her people go on to whatever their fate of other mortals is when they choose to pass on?
    -[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary?
    -[X] What if one were to break the coins, forge a hammer heavy enough, stoke a fire high enough?
    -[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
    -[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? What happens if one of them got loose in Creation?
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? What happens if one of them got loose in Creation?
    -[X] What if one were to break the coins, forge a hammer heavy enough, stoke a fire high enough? What if we destroy the coin's occupants?
    -[X] How do you give Amoracchius and other Swords travel visas? In case you ever need to retreat together with dad from hostile situation
    [X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
    [X] If he could answer a few questions maybe... That would be really helpful
    -[x] Where could other with powers akin to mine be found.
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary?
    -[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
 
Yeah, not a good plan. Instead we should simply torment them excessively whenever they show up in our neighborhood.

We probably won't put down Nicodemus on the first encounter, but I bet if we fill his organs with Agg fire and remove at least one body part a visit he'll eventually learn to stay away.

Also a shitload of curses. Our charms offer some options, but making splendors specifically to screw them up would be fun.

The Fallen themselves probably have perfects, but the Denarians don't have the full power of an Angel. Even if the strongest of them have some way to block this sort of thing just having to do so would freak them out since splendors are ancient sorcery tier effects
Yeah. Look I think that Molly will have to unload everything on nocodemis just to drive him off. Not because he is unstoppable but because he is a very very good planner. He will not come at Molly half or even three quarters cocked. He will have back up plans an escape route and several aces up a metaphorical sleeve. Especially if his information is incomplete on what exactly she is.

Plus let's be real. Molly is a lord of her own hell. It is like taking a shot at hades. (Which yes he actually did but that should emphasise the level he is prepared to operate at.)

Dresden only got the drop on him two times the first through something that neither Nicky or anduriel could have seen coming due to it never having happened before. The second a hidden contingency that Dresden had set up before Nicky boy knew Dresden knew about him. In both cases he still did not manage to kill him. And the two cases we have seen where he actually lost his villainous cool were when the forces of heaven out rules layered him like he was a character in a phoenix ace attorney game.
 
nicodemus is slippery and clever seeing as hes one of if not the longest running antagonist around who we've got a somewhat clearer picture on.
 
Oops, I thought I had already voted.

[X] Plan Seraph

Too late, I know, but it's the thought that counts.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Aug 28, 2023 at 4:39 AM, finished with 85 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Plan Seraph
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? Are they their own people, or just a mask for the Fallen? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? Or on Earth? Or...acquired a body of their own?
    -[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
    -[X] Can you tell me who the Makers were, what the Makers sought to make, and what they actually ended up with?
    -[X] Can you tell me what my power is called?
    -[X] Are there other powers like mine around?
    -[X] Can Yama Kings be fixed/redeemed?
    -[X] Whatever you can tell me about the Neverborn
    -[X] Do her people go on to whatever their fate of other mortals is when they choose to pass on?
    -[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary?
    -[X] What if one were to break the coins, forge a hammer heavy enough, stoke a fire high enough?
    -[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
    -[X] Also, can God reach into my kingdom or is that outside his domain and could Ammorachius enter if it were invited?
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? What happens if one of them got loose in Creation?
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? What happens if one of them got loose in Creation?
    -[X] What if one were to break the coins, forge a hammer heavy enough, stoke a fire high enough? What if we destroy the coin's occupants?
    -[X] How do you give Amoracchius and other Swords travel visas? In case you ever need to retreat together with dad from hostile situation
    [X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
    [X] If he could answer a few questions maybe... That would be really helpful
    -[x] Where could other with powers akin to mine be found.
    [X] Ask questions:
    -[X] What about the Fallen's shadows? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary?
    -[X] Can you tell me what the Empyreal Chaos was or is. He Who Walks Unbowed called me his heir and I do not think it was in the mood to lie at that point
 
Arc 9 Post 4: Talking Temptation
Talking Temptation

18th of November 2006 A.D.

"What about the Fallen's shadows?" you blurt out, half worried that he'll be gone before you can ask any questions and half hoping your mother does not get suspicious of a certain wizard if you talk fast enough "Are they their own people, or just a mask for the Fallen? What would happen if one of them got loose in Sanctuary? Or on Earth? Or...acquired a body of their own?"

"Got loose?" For his part Uriel seems faintly pained at your inexact language. "If you exorcised one do you mean? As all mortal things are clay all souls share a kinship of the divine. It is that fact the Fallen use as their leverage to tempt the souls of men, the act of touching a coin burns a mark seen or unseen into flesh and it burns a facsimile of the Fallen into the mortal's consciousness. This is by necessity a simplification of the greater whole. Imagine taking one side of a polyhedron and inking it to paper, the shadow as you called it has only one purpose, to persuade the mortal to take up the coin in full so it contains those aspects of the Fallen which are social facing. They possess some knowledge of whichever domains the prospective victim would find useful, intrigueing, tempting. But at the same time they have no capacity to act directly, they must converse and bargain with the mortal each time."

"Molly what are you thinking?" your mom shoots the kind of angry whisper that still has the gift of making you flinch, but she is not about to interrupt an archangel.

What you are actually thinking is: "Pay attention Usum, see if it jolts any memories loose." The state of Harry's soul is more important than Mom having a hissy fit

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 13/15 (Occult Excellency)

All the while Uriel does not seem to notice the byplay or he has absolutely no opinion on it as he continues his lecture: "Therein lies the flaw in the flaw, the answer to your question Margret and what the Fallen have most likely not contemplated and yet which may be. Mortal minds are not empty parchment upon which blackened signets are pressed. The law of reciprocity holds, as the shadow speaks so may it be spoken to, as it tempts so may it be tempted. As for what would happen if you were to free such a shade from the mortal whom they are meant to tempt I know not what would come to pass."

For the briefest instant something like frustration passes over Uriel's features, he does not sigh or move his head if anything he gets less expressive at your incredulous reaction. "You ask of a thing which has never been and which could only be as a direct consequence of mortal free will. It cannot be foretold, nor can be be tested."

"But exorcisms aren't..." The words trail off as you realize the line of questioning is a high speed train for 'why doesn't God just pry the Fallen out of the heads of the Denarians?'

"Temptation is a direct manifestation of the principle of free will, it cannot be stymied by Heaven's actions alone faith can and does serve as a helping hand."

"Oh..." the light-bulb belatedly goes off in your head. "I can exorcise the shadow since I have both the knowledge of the proper rites and the free will to so so."

Uriel says nothing, but it is an approving kind of nothing. Just a pity your mother takes the moment of silence to ask much more loudly and pointedly: "Molly who is this about?"

What do you do?

[] Tell her, you are going to help Harry get the shadow out of his head soon anyway

[] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
-[] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
-[] You were just asking about the ability in general (Lie, you are very good at it even if it is in front of Uriel he should have no reason to expose you)

[] Write in


OOC: I know you guys voted to for more questions, but there is no way to get around this one unless you just want to talk over Charity which is the equivalent of 'deal with it'.
 
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Not your secret to know, Charity.

[X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
-[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
 
Bad dices happen also Uriel told us after all so It didnt matter if we werent able to answer

Figuring out and being told are still two different outcomes and may matter down the line. Especially when we start to deal with people/persons that won't talk to us in good faith.
 
An attempt at summing up thoughts on Lash's shadow if we're being forthright:

This whole business started as wanting to ensure all our ducks are in a row before making the pitch to Harry. Wanting to potentially have a spiritual box for the shadow. That's been a backburner project. If Harry's mind has been influencing the shadow as it influences him though we aren't sure the box is necessary anymore.

Lash's shadow made an attempt to manifest independently of Harry in our realm. One Harry wasn't inclined to grant. Not sure what her motivation precisely was(One of our theories is seeking asylum). Not sure how precisely Harry would want to go about this if we made him the pitch now. And if the pitch is handled wrong it could seriously alienate him/possibly lead to the shadow interfering if he tried to seek us out again(though I don't think we'd know this part ICly).

A decision like this has... a lot of angles.
 
[X] No, you are not going to betray Harry's secret
-[X] She can just deal with it (Truthfully inform her that this is not a question you can answer in good conscience)
-[X] "Dad knows."


@DragonParadox, is this write-in valid or did Molly still not have connected the dots after Harry's exclamation in the throne room and everything which happened in the kingdom?

Edit:
Edit:
[X] Negentropy
 
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Well that was annoying, but we can't roll well all the time.

If he found this topic frustrating I bet he'll find the question about killing them really fun. The fluff for Molly's spirit killer is her eating the target, and even if the Fallen are his enemies that's still a hell of a thing to casually talk about.
 
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