One thing that wasn't brought up is that prayer eating and VEE are not either or. They very much complement each other. VEE only works on wishes that we can hear well prayer eating greatly expands our wish hearing range.
The only place I secure enough that I might feel comfortable putting a portal to our soul is Demonreach after Harry becomes it's Warden and even then I would want to add extra precautions.
If he does. That chain of events has been doubly disrupted. Harry knowing about the place and later connecting to it were both tied to events that we've knocked off the canon path. Marcone's canon event that made him Baron Marcone has already happened without his involvement, and Harry's first learning about the island was with the Denarian response to that. Then Broken Seeker was involved in the events that made him bond with the place, and we've mostly taken care of that.
At the moment there's no reason for Harry to even know about the island's existence. Let alone a reason for him to bind himself to it. He thought that the idea was very dangerous, and only did it because he was feeling desperate.
Between our personal efforts and the efforts of the Fivefold Courts I would imagine the Last Station would be, if not impregnable, then still a formidable bastion. That being said, one of the benefits of a technology-based portal is that... it can be closed in emergencies. And even then, the other side of the portal will probably be far more guarded, and possibly isolated slightly away from the cities themselves, and maybe that side of the base will be rigged to blow with foothold protocols for good measure, on top of numerous technological and magical defenses. And then, you say they will be able to just jump in a pull a major ritual... to do what? What major ritual could be pulled of minutes from entering from the other side of the portal, and what nightmare scenario would such a thing even be? Besides that they would have to find a good place to cast from, probably from the local very well guarded leylines.... by the time they would have such a thing ready Molly would be there in her permanent shintai form and come down on them like the God-Queen she is.
If you just assert that none of the concerns are valid then sure, but the problem remains that we can't fully secure such a site from the prolonged attention of an enemy worth remembering the name of.
Being able to turn the portal off banks on us being able to shut things down before the assault gets too far, and the attacker has the luxury of spending as much time as they like preparing before making a move.
Busting into divine realms isn't exactly impossible either; Dresden and the Denarian's did it to Hades just to name one example.
Special circumstances applied to that, but it still was a credible threat outside of them.
You're basically challenging the word to figure out how to screw us with that certainty of defense against assaults.
Maybe the Denarians chuck a magical super plague in that doesn't kill but does debilitate, someone fires off an artifact, or a super caster who's been doing this for millennia does manage to pull a fast one while we're juggling multiple other threats.
We can't perfectly defend against assaults, but what you're suggesting is essentially like installing a permanent IV port and then leaving it open while swimming in a public pool.
Can I tell you exactly what disease you're going to catch? No. But there are some obvious options and we can be reasonably confident that the ones we don't know about yet can hurt us.
You're basically challenging the word to figure out how to screw us with that certainty of defense against assaults.
Maybe the Denarians chuck a magical super plague in that doesn't kill but does debilitate, someone fires off an artifact, or a super caster who's been doing this for millennia does manage to pull a fast one while we're juggling multiple other threats.
I am not saying it's impossible for things to go wrong, I am not saying that there is no danger is keeping a possibility accessible doorway to our realm, and I am not saying the world of DF isn't dangerous… I just don't think it's dangerous ENOUGH to deny our people that ability to leave more freely when they are obviously not afraid of being known. This bottleneck of Molly being to only point of contact is good for secrecy and safety, but it is terrible for our people that want to research, trade, explore and more in the new world. That also assumes all the initiative is on the attackers, with a portal open and a bit of intergration time we will have spies and soldiers actively searching for threats themselves. They won't catch all of them, but it's risk/reward, and I believe the risk is worth it instead of an entire civilization hiding away like a hermit.
Edit: Moreover, none of those scenarios you mentioned sounds like a game over, even assuming that Denarians have a super desires that is non-lethal and can somehow effect the widely biologicaly diverse population of our hell and that none of our master healer-mages in Endings can cure on there own, (which is a big assumption), and also it manages to spread to the entirety of the five cities before being contained, that sounds like the perfect setup for all the people in our hell to be praying for one thing and for us to pull of something epic to fix it. And that's a super nightmare apocalypse scenario, that I doubt will take since by the time people are confident and prepared to attack our hell as it is now Molly herself will be much, much stronger.
Literally every time someone has assaulted the last station they've knocked it over and done whatever they wanted before leaving.
The FCF would allow for better defenses, but I doubt we're going to get access to minions that outweigh someone like the will of Kakuri or Broken Seeker. People like that are the sort of problem we have to worry about.
If someone decides to spends months studying our defenses before busting through to fire off a ritual just inside Molly's soul I'm not convinced we could actually stop them.
I would never, under any circumstances short of averting the guaranteed destruction of the planet Earth, support creating a freaking doorway that leads into Molly's soul. I don't care if the White God personally insures there will be two Archangels standing guard on it 24/7 for the rest of eternity, I still wouldn't trust that it would not be used against us in some manner.
I am not saying it's impossible for things to go wrong, I am not saying that there is no danger is keeping a possibility accessible doorway to our realm, and I am not saying the world of DF isn't dangerous… I just don't think it's dangerous ENOUGH to deny our people that ability to leave more freely when they are obviously not afraid of being known. This bottleneck of Molly being to only point of contact is good for secrecy and safety, but it is terrible for our people that want to research, trade, explore and more in the new world. That also assumes all the initiative is on the attackers, with a portal open and a bit of intergration time we will have spies and soldiers actively searching for threats themselves. They won't catch all of them, but it's risk/reward, and I believe the risk is worth it instead of an entire civilization hiding away like a hermit.
Edit: Moreover, none of those scenarios you mentioned sounds like a game over, even assuming that Denarians have a super desires that is non-lethal and can somehow effect the widely biologicaly diverse population of our hell and that none of our master healer-mages in Endings can cure on there own, (which is a big assumption), and also it manages to spread to the entirety of the five cities before being contained, that sounds like the perfect setup for all the people in our hell to be praying for one thing and for us to pull of something epic to fix it. And that's a super nightmare apocalypse scenario, that I doubt will take since by the time people are confident and prepared to attack our hell as it is now Molly herself will be much, much stronger.
The problem is that you're basing this on nothing as far as I can see. We don't have any information to tell us how well we could actually defend such a site, but you're making strong claims about how it'd totally be fine anyway.
We have a profile on the sorts of opposition we need to be prepared for, and a decent idea of how difficult to manage things of that strength are. It's unlikely that we just have monsters to match those just lying around, or that it wouldn't be a serious investment to have them babysit a portal if we did.
And all the initiative is with the attackers, it always, always is. We can attempt to defray that with measures like you described, but ultimately if someone is planning an assault they have the luxury of picking when and how they engage while the defenders have to react.
You could be actively under threat for weeks or months and not know until they screw up or pull the trigger.
On the Denarians; I used that example because they engineered the black plague in canon. They do in fact make progress sometimes, despite the knight's best efforts. Fallen angels are bullshit, don't underestimate them.
Picking apart any given scenario isn't the point, they're demonstrations of various ways this could hurt us. You're also making the mistake of seeing anything that isn't lethal as a nonissue.
The our people suffering is a negative consequence, and the resources required to deal with these situations are a cost.
I would never, under any circumstances short of averting the guaranteed destruction of the planet Earth, support creating a freaking doorway that leads into Molly's soul. I don't care if the White God personally insures there will be two Archangels standing guard on it 24/7 for the rest of eternity, I still wouldn't trust that it would not be used against us in some manner.
That feels like incorrect thinking to the Soul World of an Infernal Exalted. Being inside it isn't some magical backdoor into molly's soul, even for the best magic casters in the world.
@DragonParadox
just to confirm this, that even an epic-tier spellcaster up to no good would not be able to affect molly through her kingdom metaphysically by exploiting they are within her soul. That sounds like something that should be hard-blocked by being an exalted.
Picking apart any given scenario isn't the point, they're demonstrations of various ways this could hurt us. You're also making the mistake of seeing anything that isn't lethal as a nonissue.
The our people suffering is a negative consequence, and the resources required to deal with these situations are a cost.
As I repeatedly said, I don't think there will be no issues. I think we may, no defiantly will, be attacked multiple times. I think there will be individuals who try to get past our defenses and will partially or even totally succeed. I think that people will try to kidnap our citizens, steal them from our realm, and then hold them as ransom. I think that an over eager explorer from Journeys is going to go out and get eaten by some gribble we didn't expect and Molly might blame herself. I think some cleaver foe might be able to disguise themselves in the Cities and start on outsider cult that causes panic and destruction that has to be readily contained.
I think all these are possible. Having a stronger connection to the world means that you have a higher chance of getting hurt. That is true both for individuals and for scocieties. Letting people reach our more freely will mean some people get burnt, some will die, some will suffer, things wont all go as planned. But that's the cost of reaching out.
Our people from the city of Journeys want to explore every crevice of this new world and profit of what they can. The city of Swords wants to put monsters to the blade. The city of scrolls wants to learn every piece of lore both public and obscure. The city of fountains wants to immerse themselves in an entirely new culture to inspire and be inspired. The city of Endings wants to know the minds, hearts, and threats of Earth. We can try our best to provide trickles at a time though ourselves as a singular point, sheltering them from directly being exposed to the horrors of the world. Or we can open the doors and guide them to learn, grow, and adapt to to the challenges ahead themselves. Keeping them as isolated as we can might be a way to protect them, but it wont help them establish themselves in the cosmos like they so want to do.
The FCFF is not Molly soul even in 2E an devil tigger was it own being complete by itself. Even if you killed all of a infernals sub souls, it was no more then killing a valuable ally, it did not effect the internal themselves.
Well those secrets are likely to be very well guarded, but you guys could certainly look. If they figure out that is what you are after you may end up pissing off several Yama Kings with your presumption, or in other words being an obvious rival.
Could we attempt to capture an akuma, and perform a live biopsy and/or interrogation in an attempt to learn how they are what they are? I'm guessing if killed (barring special preparations or circumstances) they wouldn't leave behind a body or soul we could dissect?
Could we attempt to capture an akuma, and perform a live biopsy and/or interrogation in an attempt to learn how they are what they are? I'm guessing if killed (barring special preparations or circumstances) they wouldn't leave behind a body or soul we could dissect?
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Aug 23, 2023 at 12:16 AM, finished with 162 posts and 19 votes.
[X] Plan supplies and digital scout -[X] Pick up your friends and Harry and get back home, the Exarchate is going to need several days at least to absorb what you have just told them, but Broken Seeker and Arianna Ortega will not wait -[X] Get supplies - personal datapads, some reagents and foodstuffs that don't exist on Earth. --[X] We'll come back for proper armor fitting and weapon training later -[X] Get some back up --[X] An experienced machine spirit in a proper SUTRA device with memory banks to start downloading and reformatting data from the internet for the intel team back in the courts
[X] Pick up your friends and Harry and get back home, the Exarchate is going to need several days at least to absorb what you have just told them, but Broken Seeker and Arianna Ortega will not wait -[X]Pick up some blank smartphones and a laptop or two for use -[X]Be sure that Dresden takes a blank tablet and something like a billet of metal with him
I think there will be individuals who try to get past our defenses and will partially or even totally succeed. I think that people will try to kidnap our citizens, steal them from our realm, and then hold them as ransom. I think that an over eager explorer from Journeys is going to go out and get eaten by some gribble we didn't expect and Molly might blame herself. I think some cleaver foe might be able to disguise themselves in the Cities and start on outsider cult that causes panic and destruction that has to be readily contained.
I for one would rather not create even more attack vectors when we were just struggling to keep two of our friends from getting killed or worse.
They have an entire world to themselves just like us on Earth. Their freedom is hardly being encrouched upon. They'll do just fine with the bottleneck and from what I've read in thread we can move a more than reasonable amount of them to and from if need be. If some of them feel different or grow resentful of this... they can deal. Leaving to explore another inhabited world is a privilege not a right. [X] Yog
That feels like incorrect thinking to the Soul World of an Infernal Exalted. Being inside it isn't some magical backdoor into molly's soul, even for the best magic casters in the world.
@DragonParadox
just to confirm this, that even an epic-tier spellcaster up to no good would not be able to affect molly through her kingdom metaphysically by exploiting they are within her soul. That sounds like something that should be hard-blocked by being an exalted.
As I repeatedly said, I don't think there will be no issues. I think we may, no defiantly will, be attacked multiple times. I think there will be individuals who try to get past our defenses and will partially or even totally succeed. I think that people will try to kidnap our citizens, steal them from our realm, and then hold them as ransom. I think that an over eager explorer from Journeys is going to go out and get eaten by some gribble we didn't expect and Molly might blame herself. I think some cleaver foe might be able to disguise themselves in the Cities and start on outsider cult that causes panic and destruction that has to be readily contained.
I think all these are possible. Having a stronger connection to the world means that you have a higher chance of getting hurt. That is true both for individuals and for scocieties. Letting people reach our more freely will mean some people get burnt, some will die, some will suffer, things wont all go as planned. But that's the cost of reaching out.
Our people from the city of Journeys want to explore every crevice of this new world and profit of what they can. The city of Swords wants to put monsters to the blade. The city of scrolls wants to learn every piece of lore both public and obscure. The city of fountains wants to immerse themselves in an entirely new culture to inspire and be inspired. The city of Endings wants to know the minds, hearts, and threats of Earth. We can try our best to provide trickles at a time though ourselves as a singular point, sheltering them from directly being exposed to the horrors of the world. Or we can open the doors and guide them to learn, grow, and adapt to to the challenges ahead themselves. Keeping them as isolated as we can might be a way to protect them, but it wont help them establish themselves in the cosmos like they so want to do.
Yes, if one were within her soul with the right ritual at the right time they could do bad things to Molly, this is literally her soul. That is why the Primordials had all those First Circle Demons, well it is one of the reasons, to serve as the immune system if their world-body/world soul.
You forget that our people are used to operating on vastly different timescales than earth natives. They can wait until we've learned summoning rites and taught them how to pull off a summoner cascade (summoners summoning more summoners).
Especially since they're still grappling with the culmination of their religious prophecies
We don't need them to have a mobile or combat-ready chassis. We need them to have a hacking / data theft / data analysis oriented chassis, so they can intelligently connect to the internet and get as much information as they can back to the Courts. Incidentally, I remind @DragonParadox that we still have "what are the best, most comprehensive text / reference books for *insert subjects here*" crown question left unanswered. And it seems very appropriate for the situation. Ask the questions, then order textbooks in bulk, and ship them to the courts, in addition to using them ourselves.
That feels like incorrect thinking to the Soul World of an Infernal Exalted. Being inside it isn't some magical backdoor into molly's soul, even for the best magic casters in the world.
@DragonParadox
just to confirm this, that even an epic-tier spellcaster up to no good would not be able to affect molly through her kingdom metaphysically by exploiting they are within her soul. That sounds like something that should be hard-blocked by being an exalted.
As I repeatedly said, I don't think there will be no issues. I think we may, no defiantly will, be attacked multiple times. I think there will be individuals who try to get past our defenses and will partially or even totally succeed. I think that people will try to kidnap our citizens, steal them from our realm, and then hold them as ransom. I think that an over eager explorer from Journeys is going to go out and get eaten by some gribble we didn't expect and Molly might blame herself. I think some cleaver foe might be able to disguise themselves in the Cities and start on outsider cult that causes panic and destruction that has to be readily contained.
I think all these are possible. Having a stronger connection to the world means that you have a higher chance of getting hurt. That is true both for individuals and for scocieties. Letting people reach our more freely will mean some people get burnt, some will die, some will suffer, things wont all go as planned. But that's the cost of reaching out.
Our people from the city of Journeys want to explore every crevice of this new world and profit of what they can. The city of Swords wants to put monsters to the blade. The city of scrolls wants to learn every piece of lore both public and obscure. The city of fountains wants to immerse themselves in an entirely new culture to inspire and be inspired. The city of Endings wants to know the minds, hearts, and threats of Earth. We can try our best to provide trickles at a time though ourselves as a singular point, sheltering them from directly being exposed to the horrors of the world. Or we can open the doors and guide them to learn, grow, and adapt to to the challenges ahead themselves. Keeping them as isolated as we can might be a way to protect them, but it wont help them establish themselves in the cosmos like they so want to do.
You're drawing an arbitrary line at a point you're comfortable with to justify this.
It's not like the options are portal or hermit kingdom either; we can move people or find safer means of transportation.
For that matter it's not like having a portal means free movement. Letting random people walk back and forth like it's an airport is a recipe for disaster on both ends. We're already going to be filtering who gets to go exploring anyway, especially in these early days, we don't need the throughput of a permanent portal.
One thing you guys should perhaps consider is that Molly and a shape-shifting monstrosity from the dawn of time are about to go on a mission to assassinate an ancient vampire. Broken Seeker can do veils and he even knows when to use them so if you want a high power strike team right now, you have the opportunity to use it.
Coming back to this, we have two options I can think of:
Call her out for a formal duel.
Prep a pair of armed not!Blackhawks with veils/stealthtech and 2 teams of hitters as backup, then bring them out of our Hell.
However, essentially most if not all our people are magically talented in one way or the other.
I have no interest in dangling them in front of the anthropophagic shapeshifting elder abomination thats a naagloshii; its a temptation, and I doubt naagloshii do well with temptations. They seldom have to hear no, after all.
Rather not fight both the Reds and the skinwalkers at the same time if I can avoid it.
I am thinking we should go with spies and analysts this first go around, we don't desperately need guards or wizards right now and they will be the most useful for gathering data to give back to the cities to help them adapt to the new world.
Edit- A strike team from hell doesn't sound too bad either though
My dude, nationstates spend years training spies in full immersion environments to blend in to the societies where they are being sent. The Soviets literally built entire communities modelled on US small towns for their agents. The North Koreans kidnapped Japanese citizens to train their spies to fit into Japanese society.
Our people literally cant speak English, let alone any other Earth language or any language spoken by supernaturals.
Neither analysts nor humint operatives can speak the language, never mind operating in US society.
Or supernatural society for that matter.
@DragonParadox Molly's house has internet connection, right? I am guessing we haven't solved "how to make our tech talk to Earth tech" yet, or anywhere close to it, but getting a sophont Machine spirit in a proper data analysis chassis with a SUTRA to hook up to the internet as a prep course would be a good compromise I think.
You keep swinging between extremes.
Either its the best thing ever or its utterly useless. And neither is true.
VEE is a powerful charm with situational uses
Its optimized for a particular playstyle, but it has significant utility outside it. Im not sure if it should be a 5 dot charm, but its definitely well in the upper 4-dots IMO.
Just dont try to use it to build armies. There's other charms for that.
For direct minion augmentation, I'd like to learn how Yama Kings make lesser and greater akuma. It seems like a process that comes with having a Hell, as it's something that all Yama Kings can do, whatever type of creature they are, whether they're as yet unfallen Wan Xian, death gods that have betrayed their mandate, nature spirits that haven't, Ex-mortal wizards, entities that were always devils, or whatever.
Yeah, the charm for turning a group into an army is Chirality Prohibition Index, and that comes with a level of control and brainwashing that makes VEE look tame. A custom version of CPI based on our hell would be better if harder to balance, but I am hopeful.
There's another training charm in the Dark Ages supplement, that is much less restrictive in its results.
Oath of one Hundred Devil Disciples (•••••)
By accepting a mortal's oaths of fealty and putting him through a dedicated training regimen, the Infernal can transform him into a fanatical killer, and eventually, a devil in his own right.
System: The Infernal may personally train any mortal who has sworn some sort of formal oath of loyalty to her. During each day of training such a disciple or group of disciples, spend 1 Essence per student. At the end of seven days of training, all students gain 30 experience points to spend raising their Physical Attributes, Wits, and Alertness, Archery, Athletics, Brawl, Melee, or Ride Abilities. No Ability can be raised higher than that of their Infernal instructor. This Charm can be used on the same students repeatedly, but bestows only 20 experience points on subsequent training regimens. Any unspent experience is lost.
Alternately, rather than bestowing 20 experience from a subsequent training regimen, the Infernal may instead infuse the wicked powers of Hell into them, transforming them into bakemono – a sort of monster that shapeshifters know as fomori. Rules for fomori can be found on pages 428-439 of W20.
The Infernal can continue to train her Devil Disciples after they have become bakemono, if she wishes.
If the QM allows us, we can buy it instead of, or in addition to CPI.
Looking over the Constructive Convergence of Principles text again, building a Stargate to connect to our hell should defiantly be in the cards expacially in a dragon line nexus like the last station. Im not sure where we would put the other side of the portal, for Maximum security we might want to put it just slightly into the wastes in a base right near the city of journeys so any intruders would have to travel through the wastes themselves to reach civilization. I assume there are plenty of tiny forward bases in the wastes to pick from near Journeys considering there entire shtick.
As BronzeTongue has repeatedly pointed out, our soul is not a place where we want to leave doors to.
This is a world with shoggoths, corrupt gods, fallen angels, and eldritch abominations from outside spacetime. They all have their own tricks and millenia of experience.And all of them are already our enemies.
Let me remind you that the beginning of this quest saw Molly being rescued in the aftermath of someone actually attacking Mab's heavily guarded capital. We arent Mab, we dont have her reputation or her firepower.
If we make the error of putting a door out here, someone is going to use it against us.
Yes, if one were within her soul with the right ritual at the right time they could do bad things to Molly, this is literally her soul. That is why the Primordials had all those First Circle Demons, well it is one of the reasons, to serve as the immune system if their world-body/world soul.
And Molly doesnt even have a basic Shaping defense yet. If a Denarian-backed team, or a major Nemesis agent broke in.....
Hell, if Mikaboshi or one of the other Yama Kings slipped someone in there with an artifact like the Yin blade that was used to kill Yen Lo, First of the Fallen, they could do significant damage.
It seems crazy to me that Broken Seeker would spend months stalking Molly and Dresden but want to shoot from the hip against a red court duchess and heir to their king.
I'm half tempted to steal part of the plot from Changes and find a softer target that she turned at some point in the past and use them as fodder for a curse to blow her head off next time she's outside of her wards. We don't have the skill to set that up, but Broken Seeker probably does.
Doesn't seem like the kind of thing Molly would go for though, especially since any ritual designed with the help of a Naagoloshi would almost certainly involve torturing our lucky winner to death instead of killing them cleanly.
It seems crazy to me that Broken Seeker would spend months stalking Molly and Dresden but want to shoot from the hip against a red court duchess and heir to their king.
I'm half tempted to steal part of the plot from Changes and find a softer target that she turned at some point in the past and use them as fodder for a curse to blow her head off next time she's outside of her wards. We don't have the skill to set that up, but Broken Seeker probably does.
Doesn't seem like the kind of thing Molly would go for though, especially since any ritual designed with the help of a Naagoloshi would almost certainly involve torturing our lucky winner to death instead of killing them cleanly.
I mean, we and a Naagloshii can almost certainly take Ortega in any fight that doesn't involve her being supported by Lords of the Outer Night or her dad.
So just let Seeker report success and ambush her when they meet.
Yes, if one were within her soul with the right ritual at the right time they could do bad things to Molly, this is literally her soul. That is why the Primordials had all those First Circle Demons, well it is one of the reasons, to serve as the immune system if their world-body/world soul.
Really? From what I knew the exalted could hurt or even kill the world bodies of the primordials creating the never born, but they only really changed with a dead fetch, and Molly is her own fetch correct? The only exception I can think of is Oramos being bound in his own wings, and that was the world of numerous powerful solars working together, and happened after the Yozi's surrender.
Also now I'm imagining Molly making First Circles, at least one for each city, and maybe 5 more for the palace, the twin dragons, the prison, and the wastes at E10 in a bajillion years from now
It seems crazy to me that Broken Seeker would spend months stalking Molly and Dresden but want to shoot from the hip against a red court duchess and heir to their king.
I'm half tempted to steal part of the plot from Changes and find a softer target that she turned at some point in the past and use them as fodder for a curse to blow her head off next time she's outside of her wards. We don't have the skill to set that up, but Broken Seeker probably does.
Doesn't seem like the kind of thing Molly would go for though, especially since any ritual designed with the help of a Naagoloshi would almost certainly involve torturing our lucky winner to death instead of killing them cleanly.
He does have the magical resources if he so chooses; 12 lesser sorcerers/skinwalkers backing up a nnagloshii is one hell of a pocket task force. And he has met Arianna in person, and sized her up as a threat.
But yes, it appears uncharacteristically forward of him.Makes me sus.
I mean.
Barring a serious powerup, Molly can kill Arianna in seconds and simply fly away. So can a naagloshii. Yes, she got in a magical duel with Dresden and didnt do badly, but she'd need serious magical backup to even get Molly to consider shintai.
Seeker has to know this IC. Both people showing up should be extreme overkill.
But there is nothing preventing Seeker calling Arianna, betraying her into an ambush and siccing Molly on her.
And then jumping us after we're done murdering her.
Which fulfills the letter of any agreements he has.
Maybe I just expect scorpions to act according to their nature.
Shagnasty did promise to return Thomas in Turn Coat in return for Morgan, then spent the interval torturing him for fun to the point where he was basically insensate.
