Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Vittorio Malvora is Malvora Heir, which makes him one of the top ten most important nobles in the White Court.
You cannot walk into another Power's territory and kill another senior member of the government with impunity.
Not without starting a war and/or destabilizing Lara's rule.

It would be like walking into Edinburgh Wizard HQ and killing Peabody
Or into Winter and killing the Leanansidhe.
Or, to use a mundane example, shooting some cop on the street because you know he is a rapist, just trust me.

You need a casus belli that is credible to other people, or There Will Be War.

Can we just say the name of the nephandi when we go after him, he reacts with outsiders magic in fear we have proof of It and thus reveals he is not who he says he is and now we have the causus beli for war???

Ed: Not everything needs to be solved with James Bond villain planning while fighting White campires
 
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Or maybe.. We make it look like an accident? Fire was everywhere, shit was exploding, people and vamps running for their lives, and our sword just accidently loped his head off. It happens.
Given that everything from scrying magic to postcognition to psychometry to ghostwhispering and prophetic visions are all things in this AU?
I wouldnt risk it.

Remember, we intend to kill Anas-whatever Skavis, Skavis Heir. He is also one of the ten most important nobles in the White Court, and heir to a House that is rival to House Raith, Lara's House. Lara has to worry about looking like bringing in external hitmen to take out political rivals and weaken the other Houses. We need to worry about it too; White Court civil conflict has a splash zone.

If we're going to have to kill Vito, we are going to have to do it as aboveboard as possible, or risk kicking off a civil war in the White Court.
Can we just say the name of the nephandi when we go after him, he reacts with outsiders magic in fear we have proof of It and thus reveals he is not who he says he is and now we have the causus beli for war???

Ed: Not everything needs to be solved with James Bond villain planning while fighting White campires
We dont even know if he has Outsider magic yet; Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency would have told us, but it didnt win the vote.
And the Whites would only have our word that it was Outsider magic.

Besides, he is an excellent gunman and knife thrower according to canon; you are more likely to eat rapidfire handgun rounds to the face or a throwing knife to the neck than his trying to cast magic in a hurry.
 
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This isn't a trial. Adding one more body to the mound bodies today is no trouble at all.
While he has to die somehow in the future (anyone who makes deals with Outsides is automatically a mortal enemy of Molly, both as a human and daughter of a Knight of the Cross and one of the Heiresses of Creation), this party is a trial (only that the evidence was gathered and the death sentence was given without notifying the culprits), both legal and of public opinion, legal because by attacking the Order they broke an agreement signed between us and the White Court and public opinion to fortify both Lara's leadership position and the fact that the Order and its members are under our protection and off limits.

So right now it's better to do nothing, when we leave we discreetly give the information to Lara (agent of the True Venatori, enemy of the Outsides, really doesn't support they minions especially when they are in a position to be a big threat to her) and let her find evidence, if we're lucky she gets enough to arrange his death herself, if not we can plan together to set a trap he'll be in a position where we can kill him by ourselves.

And the question of why Lara would believe our information? For the same reason Mab did when we have similarly lacked proof, when it comes to the existence of Outside infiltrators within the upper echelons of the faction you lead, it's better to investigate than to do nothing.

(Not to mention we have the precedent of using Lara's warning about the same thing with Mab without demanding evidence, I personally think she would at the very least investigate our report. If needed we can even investigate further if she asks for our help)

[X] Write in: Say nothing
- When we get back home, we arrange a meeting with Thomas at Harry's apartment or at our house and we deliver a paper with the name of Vittorio Malvora and that he has agreements with an Ashraaah, which at least helps to hide information about him, asking Thomas to find a discreet way to deliver the note to Lara.

Just do the same thing that Lara did with us, only ask someone else to deliver the note because after our interaction with Nemesis I think the Outsiders and their agents may have increased surveillance on us but Thomas and Lara have a good relationship and it wouldn't be strange that they meet.
 
Given that everything from scrying magic to postcognition to psychometry to ghostwhispering and prophetic visions are all things in this AU?
I wouldnt risk it.

Remember, we intend to kill Anas-whatever Skavis, Skavis Heir.
One of the ten most important nobles in the White Court, and heir to a House that is rival to House Raith, Lara's House. Lara has to worry about looking like bringing in external hitmen to take out political rivals and weaken the other Houses.

If we're going to have to kill Vito, we are going to have to do it as aboveboard as possible, or risk kicking off a civil war in the White Court.

We dont even know if he has Outsider magic yet; Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency would have told us, but it didnt win the vote.
And the Whites would only have our word that it was Outsider magic.

Besides, he is an excellent gunman; you are more likely to eat rapidfire handgun rounds to the face than his trying to cast magic in a hurry.

We know he has Contact with a very strong nephandi mage and we also know that the creature is known for devouring the soul of its acolytes to make them puppets. We also know that nephandi mages exists now and this is one of the Big ones that created worlds in the outside. If he reveals fucking 5 rank arcana he will blew up his own mask and we will be able to kill it. Better It both treacharous factions dont colaborarte with each other so we can make them fight between each other by clever wording, reducing the amount of people we need to kill in one go . Also this is not an execution but only informing Lara about this creature and she is gonna make the decision.
 
[X] Send her a message, you have her number and Cthulhu probably does not read texts. Hopefully she's not one of those people who does not check her phone at parties
-[x]Stunt "Vito Died some time ago. Something else is using his face."

[X] Try to pass on what you saw to Lara (Charisma+Subterfuge)
-[X] Use Excellency

We cannot just do like we havent see him and telling her now will be better for us because we might get a chance to kill him here. Waiting will only make everything more difficult and make us waste more actions.
 
We know he has Contact with a very strong nephandi mage and we also know that the creature is known for devouring the soul of its acolytes to make them puppets. We also know that nephandi mages exists now and this is one of the Big ones that created worlds in the outside. If he reveals fucking 5 rank arcana he will blew up his own mask and we will be able to kill it. Better It both treacharous factions dont colaborarte with each other so we can make them fight between each other by clever wording, reducing the amount of people we need to kill in one go . Also this is not an execution but only informing Lara about this creature and she is gonna make the decision.
Dresden was raised by a senior Warden who turned out to be a black wizard who mindcontrols his minions.
The Senior Council's personal secretary is a black wizard who has mindcontrolled most of the Wardens and is using mind magic on the Senior Council themselves. Elaine Mallory literally served a Nemesis-infected Summer Lady.

By that rationale we'd kill all those people out of hand.

===
Yes, Vittorio is probably a bad dude.But we need to prove it to the satisfaction of his faction. The speculation about the Nephandi mage eating the souls of its puppets is just that: Molly's speculation. Informed speculation, but only speculation nonetheless. No evidence. And there's evidence against it, since in the Dresdenverse that kind of fuckery kills the victim.

Nephandi arent mindless automatons, after all; they are quite capable of delaying self-gratification, and someone aiming at gaining influence/subverting a major supernatural player isnt going to risk killing its main agent.
There arent that many Whampire heirs available.

===
This is the middle of a social function.
It isnt time critical to tell Lara about this here and now if we dont think he's going to attack or otherwise interfere.
And we dont want to risk it leaking out prematurely; Vampires can have superhuman senses.
 
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[X] Write in: Say nothing

We can get him later if we want to. I'd like to see how much oomph we have left after our kill list will take before adding adding to it.

Being involved with a dark magic is grounds for instant death. A Nephandi is the Blackstaff personally comes to kill you.
And if this was the White Council and not the White Court maybe our word would be enough.
 
But seriously, after we get the Kingdom charm I'm going to vote to get the Inner Darkness charm and use it on Daniel. Feeling really, really bad when I read where we were leaving for the party.

The doorbell rings and in the hallway you can hear mom stop pacing, she has not even been pretending not be worried ever since she put the jawas to bed. Even Hope had been able to tell something weird was going on and it was not just that mom managed to burn the birthday cake he made for you. Daniel of course knows the whole thing and he is not happy that you and Lydia are going to a vampire party 'alone'. Your mother had not argued with him, he had just said 'no' and Daniel, ever more dutiful than you, hadn't taken that as an invitation to have a screaming argument, instead just going off to sulk. To be honest you are glad he did, no matter how gently one puts it there's no pleasant way to say 'you would be a liability'.

I want to help him.
 
Given that everything from scrying magic to postcognition to psychometry to ghostwhispering and prophetic visions are all things in this AU?
I wouldnt risk it.

Remember, we intend to kill Anas-whatever Skavis, Skavis Heir. He is also one of the ten most important nobles in the White Court, and heir to a House that is rival to House Raith, Lara's House. Lara has to worry about looking like bringing in external hitmen to take out political rivals and weaken the other Houses. We need to worry about it too; White Court civil conflict has a splash zone.
It's hard for me to put into words just how little I care about this line of reasoning, but I will try.

Someone possibly using magic bullshit to see that we killed him on purpose, but missing the reason for it. Don't really care. The pretense is just about plausible deniability to give Skavis the opportunity to save face anyway.

Extra heat then we were already going to get from killing 9 Wamps openly at a party. Don't care.

Skavis Heir. We have seen how much familia love is usual here. Don't care and if they make an issue about it I don't mind decimating the rest of house Skavis.
 
Skavis Heir. We have seen how much familia love is usual here. Don't care and if they make an issue about it I don't mind decimating the rest of house Skavis.
I'm with this guy. Fuck the Whampires. Take out as many of them as we bloody well need to. Cull the fucking herd. This guy goes on the list with everyone else.
[X] Send her a message, you have her number and Cthulhu probably does not read texts. Hopefully she's not one of those people who does not check her phone at parties
-[x]Stunt "Vito Died some time ago. Something else is using his face."


We don't actually know that Vito is no longer there yet but it doesn't really matter.
 
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@fictionfan yours and others attitude "I hate wampires/other supernaturals, they are nothing, we can exterminate them all easily, we are all powerful, damn the consequences", is really annoying, there are several reasons explained several times why it is a bad idea to do this in the short to medium term that are being ignored for the dumbest reason there is "I don't care".

Everything must be planned carefully so as not to fuck everyone else up.

At this point I'm starting to (irrationally) want the White Court (or other power) to bitchslap Molly to see if it wakes people up to the fact that we may be Exalted but we're not invincible.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jul 5, 2023 at 8:44 PM, finished with 69 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Send her a message, you have her number and Cthulhu probably does not read texts. Hopefully she's not one of those people who does not check her phone at parties
    -[x]Stunt "Vito Died some time ago. Something else is using his face."
    [X] Write in: Say nothing
    [X] Try to pass on what you saw to Lara (Charisma+Subterfuge)
    -[X] Use Excellency
    [X] Send her a message, you have her number and Cthulhu probably does not read texts. Hopefully she's not one of those people who does not check her phone at parties
 
It's hard for me to put into words just how little I care about this line of reasoning, but I will try.

Someone possibly using magic bullshit to see that we killed him on purpose, but missing the reason for it. Don't really care. The pretense is just about plausible deniability to give Skavis the opportunity to save face anyway.

Extra heat then we were already going to get from killing 9 Wamps openly at a party. Don't care.

Skavis Heir. We have seen how much familia love is usual here. Don't care and if they make an issue about it I don't mind decimating the rest of house Skavis.
The last time someone used your reasoning IC they gave the Reds casus belli for the Vampire War.

Two Senior Council wizards dead. Hundreds of Wardens dead, hundreds or thousands of rank and file wizards dead
Tens of thousands of human dead in Africa alone. At least two documented uses of WMDs by both the wizards and the Reds, and the White Council was so weakened the Kemmlerites almost succeeded with the Darkhallow.

Oh, and it set up the preconditions for Ethniu to kill sixty thousand people in Chicago.

This dont care attitude kills people in job lots
And it makes enemies of otherwise neutrals who may not like vampires but hate destabilization even more.
We are not an island. We live here. Our friends live here. Our stuff is here.

This shit is how you end up having neutrals siding with the Denarians next time a throwdown happens.
Because the rest of the factions in this setting have Opinions.
I'm with this guy. Fuck the Whampires. Take out as many of them as we bloody well need to. Cull the fucking herd. This guy goes on the list with everyone else.
[X] Send her a message, you have her number and Cthulhu probably does not read texts. Hopefully she's not one of those people who does not check her phone at parties
-[x]Stunt "Vito Died some time ago. Something else is using his face."

We don't actually know that Vito is no longer there yet but it doesn't really matter.
Ask Dresden how blundering into a situation where his only choice was to kill Baroness Bianca in Grave Peril turned out for everyone.

This dude, at the moment, does not pose a shortterm threat as far as we know.
The information we have IC does not suggest he's about to drop an army here, or activate a trap, or something.
Therefore, it can and should wait.

Talking to Lara about him can wait until AFTER the party, where there are no listening ears.
I see literally no reason why we cant wait until tomorrow morning to talk to Lara.
 
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@fictionfan yours and others attitude "I hate wampires/other supernaturals, they are nothing, we can exterminate them all easily, we are all powerful, damn the consequences", is really annoying, there are several reasons explained several times why it is a bad idea to do this in the short to medium term that are being ignored for the dumbest reason there is "I don't care".

Everything must be planned carefully so as not to fuck everyone else up.

At this point I'm starting to (irrationally) want the White Court (or other power) to bitchslap Molly to see if it wakes people up to the fact that we may be Exalted but we're not invincible.
^^^
This is a reminder that the Will of Kakuri set up in Undertown for weeks beforehand, and had the time to scout out Last Station, and the malks, our neighbors, said nothing to us because we offended them.
Which is why Adam died.

And that wasnt anything as significant as killing the Heir of a White Court House without demonstrable cause.

You don't think he's likley to cause issues while we are cutting people down?
How?

I mean, yes Im worried. Thats why I voted to burn Essence on an Occult Excellency.
But there is no current evidence that he is prepared, or preparing to do such a thing.
Especially not at such short notice.

And if he was prepared to do it, attacking him will simply give him moral high ground to say "I was attacked without cause and was defending myself". And his friends and allies will be predisposed to believe him.

Not to mention killing him successfully leaves his mother alive.
Lady Cesarina Malvora. Head of House Malvora, its forces and its resources. Believing her son was treacherously murdered at a social occasion where he was a guest and entitled to the protections of being a guest.

We are not invincible.
Our friends and minions are not invincible. Our plans are not infallible.
WIelding power has consequences for fucking up, or messing around on someone else's turf, good intentions or not.

Dresden had the personal enmity of Queen Titania of the Summer Court for almost half a decade for killing her daughter Aurora, even though it was justified by what she was trying to do at the time of her death.

And even after other people talked her down from sending personal hit squads after Dresden, she STILL wouldnt help him even when the lives and safety of others was at stake. It wasnt until Battle Grounds that she picked a side.
Dont just cavalierly decide to kill the kin of powerful people if its at all avoidable. They have long memories, and long arms.
 
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Curse your logic and reasoning. I guess we can address it after the party. Telling Lara now would serve no purpose if it isn't actionable right now anyway. Its not like we are obligated to report everything to her immediately either. I wish we had used HellScry Chakra again. We might have found something to use as an excuse.
[X] Write in: Say nothing
 
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We have plenty of reason to kill him. We noticed something up with him, scryed him and discovered was in with a Nephandi.

We need no reason more then that.
The problem is we need an excuse that the others will believe or we'll have to deal with a lot more backlash from people with weight. Otherwise without proof it just looks like we killed him for no reason, or just because, or for some imagined motive. We could handle it but thats not a guarauntee for our people. Better to not, as long as we have better options.
 
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