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Renegade Chapter Master Quest (WH40k Quest)
- Thread starter Oshha
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[x]150 test slaves
I would probably advise in that case, to try and brainstorm this stuff again once we get turn 2 up then. Use either trying to somewhat sticking to rules or not, is kinda going to matter a great deal, since we technically now have the firepower required to destroy all of our own imperial Allie's and enemies simultaneously, and actually walk off from it in a couple of decades. And of course, said firepower can be used for quite a number of things, like "dethroning" a lord Sector.
So, us trying to not get a crusade on us, for being Codex compliant is going to be a matter of great interest, in regards to not having us be charged with the assassination and assault of an imperial Offical.
Which can be, on the one hand, so worth it to get rid of a useless fop, but on the other hand, be used by, well anyone with the willpower and backing needed, to justify exterminating an already Renegade chapter.
So, us trying to not get a crusade on us, for being Codex compliant is going to be a matter of great interest, in regards to not having us be charged with the assassination and assault of an imperial Offical.
Which can be, on the one hand, so worth it to get rid of a useless fop, but on the other hand, be used by, well anyone with the willpower and backing needed, to justify exterminating an already Renegade chapter.
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Is it okay @Oshha, if whenever we do actions that need rolls to pass or not, on our part, that we get to see them in the result turn as well the writing? Like, if we send a company to, Jotunhiem, when we send them off, we get to see the rolls for how things went down their for them?
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Getting rid of the sector lord is pretty much necessary, since he's one of our chosen enemies. We're basically going to need to run the sector ourselves.
It's also not helping that the Ordo Hereticus despises us so they'll be looking for an excuse to crack down on us. Though we do have good relations with the Adeptus Administratum so maybe a clerk can misplace some paperwork to delay how long it will take for the Imperium to respond.
Your right on the first part, but I think finding a noble house that we can honestly say would try to fulfill the imperial creed isn't too hard, perhaps a action or two along with recruitment.
Sector lord needs to die though, man thought he could force wolves to heel, thinking them dogs... let's educate him on the difference.
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Eh, i just like the idea of Astartes running the sector as Ultramar 2.0. It might not the 'best' option, but it's fun, and I'm all for it because I like the idea better. No one's better at administration and governing than the Ultramarines as well, so it's fitting, and we's probably do a great job at it. Plus, we already have precedent with it, so it's probably going to go down well enough with the chapter as a whole.
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I don't see how being renegades removes us from needing independent verification of geneseed purity, if anything it makes it more important.
That said I'm not trying to pay the damned tithe. I'm trying to get the local mechanicus to run the check so we can point to them if any of the locals start making accusations. This is for local politics, not the damned imperium.
Metatron
Celestial Scribe Enoch
[X] 150 test-slaves
Geneseed is always going to be a limiting factor for a Space Marine Chapter in a post-Primarch era. Back in the GC era the Primarch could shit out thousands every day, but now its much more difficult. Its also why GC era space marines are so much less skilled and trained than 40k era counterparts; the Crusade era Space Marines were little more than enhanced guardsmen in power armour, and the canon stat is 50% died by the end of their first decade, and 95% by the end of the second. So they never really got a chance to become skilled. On the other hand with the Codex the modern Astartes who follows it religiously has a entire century of training under his belt before he's a full marine, although it is common practice to shorten this as the local situation becomes more violent and therefore the aspirants are trialed by fire.
The reason why 40k era Astartes do this is because they usually can't go over 1,000 line marines, which is heavily limiting on a battlefield. In a war of millions or more 1,000 men, no matter how powerful, just can't do enough to win alone. So they upped the skill and equipment and used themselves as scalpels against crucial targets, much like how SF in our world are meant to be used. I imagine it was a conscious decision on the parts of the marines, as with this limit if they kept their old tactics they would be wiped out instantly, so they evolved.
Its also the canon reason why the Traitor legions die in droves to loyalist Astartes, the traitor legions are still in the GC era mindset for combat, so they outnumber loyalists by a large margin, especially those with their Primarchs. The single exception is the Night Lords, who are the closest to Loyalist training measures due to also not having access to their Primarch, and further not having the political power to get cloned geneseed ala Black Legion.
Really, the average 40K era tactical marine would dunk on a 30k era Legionnaire in the same way Lebron would against a year thirteen college kid, but the big boys of the 30k era would probably take it 7-8/10 against 40K big boys due to the GC being apocalyptic in scale and strength.
Also @Oshha where specifically are we on the galactic map, it might have been mentioned but I didn't catch it? Cause if you need some help creating external threats for us in the local area then I would be more than happy to regale you with cold, hard lore bites about various barely mentioned threats of wherever and whenever we might be. If you want that of course, nothing wrong with making your own.
Geneseed is always going to be a limiting factor for a Space Marine Chapter in a post-Primarch era. Back in the GC era the Primarch could shit out thousands every day, but now its much more difficult. Its also why GC era space marines are so much less skilled and trained than 40k era counterparts; the Crusade era Space Marines were little more than enhanced guardsmen in power armour, and the canon stat is 50% died by the end of their first decade, and 95% by the end of the second. So they never really got a chance to become skilled. On the other hand with the Codex the modern Astartes who follows it religiously has a entire century of training under his belt before he's a full marine, although it is common practice to shorten this as the local situation becomes more violent and therefore the aspirants are trialed by fire.
The reason why 40k era Astartes do this is because they usually can't go over 1,000 line marines, which is heavily limiting on a battlefield. In a war of millions or more 1,000 men, no matter how powerful, just can't do enough to win alone. So they upped the skill and equipment and used themselves as scalpels against crucial targets, much like how SF in our world are meant to be used. I imagine it was a conscious decision on the parts of the marines, as with this limit if they kept their old tactics they would be wiped out instantly, so they evolved.
Its also the canon reason why the Traitor legions die in droves to loyalist Astartes, the traitor legions are still in the GC era mindset for combat, so they outnumber loyalists by a large margin, especially those with their Primarchs. The single exception is the Night Lords, who are the closest to Loyalist training measures due to also not having access to their Primarch, and further not having the political power to get cloned geneseed ala Black Legion.
Really, the average 40K era tactical marine would dunk on a 30k era Legionnaire in the same way Lebron would against a year thirteen college kid, but the big boys of the 30k era would probably take it 7-8/10 against 40K big boys due to the GC being apocalyptic in scale and strength.
Also @Oshha where specifically are we on the galactic map, it might have been mentioned but I didn't catch it? Cause if you need some help creating external threats for us in the local area then I would be more than happy to regale you with cold, hard lore bites about various barely mentioned threats of wherever and whenever we might be. If you want that of course, nothing wrong with making your own.
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Honestly, on your points in regards to the 40k vs 30k marines your really on point.
While 40k doesn't have nearly as much access to the more advanced, powerful, or specialized stuff as the GC, like Volkites being somewhat comparable in production to a Bolter. The equipment, armour and tech they do have is not only, in some cases, more advanced then their forbears, but it's also much more hand crafted on, and are more like relics of extreme potency in comparison. This is all save the Dreadnaught, 30k Dreads are better than the Mainstream 40k ones, change my mind.
Besides tech, it's much more awkward. On the one hand, 30k marines were actually created from their source and so, we're as genetically pure as you can get, so in that way their faster, stronger, bigger and tougher, then their "Degenerated" 40k parts. On the other hand, 40k marines are leagues more skilled and trained then 30k marines, with actual decades of training, experience, and fighting against dozens of foes across the galaxy to make up to their genetic defects.
Honestly, this just makes me think of 30k vs 40k marines as, the argument, Which Would you Pick? Greater inherit stats? Or greater learned skills? With the draw back being, you would have a malus in one, but a boost in the Other.
(Obviously, those Marines that either got named as Hero's, like Abaddon, Sigismund, Ahriman, and the like don't count. Nor those veterans that either, A survived since the Unification War, or B, the beginning to near 2 century end of the Great Crusade.)
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There's also the fact that 30k astartes tactics are wildly different to 40k astartes tactics. with astartes in the great crusade, they were to serve as the ENTIRE invasion force, so to speak, no mortals, no imperial guard, etc. with 40k, astartes are a much more precious resource, and with only 1000 marines per chapter, they have to be fairly cautious with their causalities. That's why in 40k space marines are often the tip of the spear of an offensive, or deploy in surgical strikes. The best way we can conserve our astartes manpower is to actually make mortal units that follow us into battle, warrior serfs, if you will, trained to our standard.
Metatron
Celestial Scribe Enoch
Funnily enough their equipment isn't actually that different on a mass scale, although the 40k era has a few small advantages and one big one. Bolters have a few more shots in 40k, Volkites are so rare as to be non-existant by the end of the GC so they're hardly a issue, and heavy weapons like plasma, melta and yes even grav are all about as common in 40k and 30k, just on a different scale.
The big advantage is the armour, Mk.7 Aquila, which is so much better than Mk.3 Crusade its not even funny. Bolters can pen Mk.3 in the limbs straight out, and a dead-on shot will punch through the chestplate as well, whereas Mk.7 is effectively immune to bolter shots across its mass. Sure joints will still be penned, but it takes Terminator armour for that not to be true. And hell, Heavy Bolters will sometimes not pen the chestplate of a suit of Mk.7, whereas it'll go in one side of a Mk.3 and out the other. That big raised Aquila on the chestplate of Mk.7 isn't just fancy, its also extra armour over the vitals. But yes, Comptemptor Dreads are miles better than Box Dreads, and I won't deny that, but they were pretty rare by the end of the GC themselves.
As for the degeneration thing, eh, it depends. Some chapters, like most Ultramarine/White Scars, are nearly identical to their forebears, while others, just about every Blood Angel, are wildly different. But they haven't degenerated as such, more moved specializations. 30k Blood Angel geneseed created the Revenant Legion for a reason, literally anyone could take it including women depending on the writer, but overall produced inferior Astartes who degenerated into maddened mutants after a few decades. This legacy of mutants and madmen incidentally is what caused the Red Thirst in the first place, and allowed the Black Rage to be formed with their Primarchs death. By 40k however Blood Angel geneseed mutated into the most Psyker heavy geneseed of the loyalists, and produces Astartes naturally inclined to flying and with oversized fast-twitch muscles in their arms. So yes they are different, but not necessarily degenenrated in such a pure sense.
But oh yeah there has to be a distinction made between traitor marine #3,473,483 and Kravaks The Bloodthirsty, survivor of the Siege of Terra and Captain of the 48th Grand Company, because the later is going to school most 40k era marines with ease. And yeah, a Named Survivor of those times is going to be a world-shattering level of broken, and someone the Loyalists don't really have a answer for anymore. Because there just isn't anyone who has undergone a crucible like the GC and survived everything. Maybe Dante due to sheer age but even thats a stretch given how long he spent doing bureaucracy and so on.
EDIT: I would probably pick 40k era marines in nearly every engagement. They are simply to good to lose most scinarios. I would even say they win at 5-1 odds 8/10, just because their bolters can penetrate the armour of the Mk.3, while the GC era marines are going to have to aim for small joints to do so, or use the unstable Flux ammo to match the 40k marines in just being able to spray and pray. Anything more than 5-1 though and I got to give it to the GC era marines 6/10, numbers would wear them down eventually. And really thats the strength of the GC era marines, the ability to drown a otherwise superior enemy in oceans of post-human soldiers who are just good enough to hurt your much more expensive elites, while also being easily able to slaughter chaff in waves.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
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[X] 150 test-slaves
In addition, to defend the 30k marines a bit, besides the fact that their deployments were on their own and not supported by the wall of guns that is the Imperial Guard, the enemies 30k Marines fought were far more dangerous than most threats in 40k.
The Orks, for example, would have been and most certainly were a far more dangerous threat than they are in 40k up until Ghazgul showed up as they had frighteningly little competition to keep them down and contained and so we're able to grow and expand completely out of control before the Crusade finally smashed them on Ulanor.
There were numerous pocket Xeno empires comparable to the Tau that they had to beat down. Numerous Human empires of varying strength with leftover Age of Technology tech that wouldn't bend the knee. And whatever in the fuck the Rangdan were.
The kind of shit that exists in places like the Ghoul Stars? Much more common during the Great Crusade before the Crusade itself wiped them from the face of the galaxy. The 40k galaxy is only so free of threats as it is because the Great Crusade cleaned house quite throughly.
A lot of people always attribute the Emperors hurry to conquer the galaxy as quickly as possible to him trying to stamp out Chaos. But very rarely do I see people point out that Chaos was hardly the only threat he was racing against the clock with in the early days after the Warpstorms of the Age of Strife cleared leaving a rather empty galaxy free for the taking.
Yep, that's why I said that there were some cases where the tech was more advanced. It's weird honestly, where you have a setting that's all about stuff from the past being superior, or at least better well known then the future, and then you've got suits of Armour that is superior to everything to the past. And this wasn't even 8th edition either, this stuff was as early as 4th edition.
I wasn't referring to just the Blood Angels. Their geneseed, at least on everything but their flaws were the same then as now. The difference in terms of inferiority, Just the widespread mess of the thirst and rage. Before the end of the Crusade, only like a handful of Marines ever fell victims to the thirst, and they were easily kept a secret. NOW? In the past 2 centuries (in modern 40k), the Blood Angels were nearly wiped out on 2 separate occasions. One was because their were more Marines falling to the twin curses then ever before, which almost led to their extinction and to Dante Asking his successor chapters to give some of their own scouts, marines and even geneseed for the Blood Angels, to stop them from falling apart.
The second time, was when they almost all got consumed thanks to the Black Rage, when Leviathan trying to pick their world clean and Kabanda showed up to say, "Nah Uh!", which caused several chapters to almost completely fall to the black Rage as soon as they saw the demon.
And it's not even the Blood Angels, the Fists and the Ravenguard, have lost several organs that should be completely useable and fine for them to use. And these are the first founding chapters. It's gotten to the point that the Ravenguard ask for more of their Older and more pure Geneseed from Mars than ever before, which only adds to their ever low numbers. And don't even get me started on the Space Wolfs and their Wulfen Curse, or how now they can only recruit from Fenris and nowhere else, despite everything in 30k prior to Leman, and even parts where he does show up contradicting that.
And theirs all of the other actual chapters besides the og ones that have their own set of problems. Or problems that show up, not as geneseed flaws, but Mental ones. Where the White Scars can enter battle list trances when their Blood gets high and there are people to kill. Or the Dark Angels and their complete and total focus on distrusting others and Paranoia that is an in-tabletop effect. And lastly, the Iron hands and their full self-hatred of the Universe and the Flesh they inhabit.
That was what I meant by degenerated. Either they have drifted so far apart from their beginning thanks to in built flaws that are just getting worse and worse over time, or organs are just no longer working and the geneseed just isn't making a good enough difference. Or, because of how a set of cultural ideas have been settled into the mind of a newborn Marine, it can act and become like a flaw, such as the Dark Angels or the Iron Hands.
And then theirs the differences that exist from successor chapters from their og ones, like the Excoriators having the "Darkness", which the mainstay Fists do not have, but the Excoriators do have. The genetics for Mainstay 40k marines, by comparison to their forbears have completely fallen off the rails.
Besides that, yeah. 30k Marines just have superior ease of actually getting stuff produced and made for them, and not have it be a relic that just needs one unfortunate accident, and boom, a priceless relic that can never be remade, is now lost forever.
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Metatron
Celestial Scribe Enoch
I get your points, and yeah mutations have occurred which limit their implants, but that happened in the GC to. The Imperial Fists lost their Betchers Gland before their Primarch even showed up, and White Scar Battle Trances were a thing long before the Khan took power. I was more meaning in broad scope rather than specifics; in that no legion has degenerated in such a way that it drastically effects their ability to fight. There is no legion which no longer has their post-human strength for example, no legion who now dies at a human lifespan, etc. But your point for smaller things is totally valid, certainly little things go missing every so often. And the proliferation of chapters distinct from their progenitor is a issue for mutation as well, and creates all kinds of divergent chapters.
Also the canon answer for the Wolves making new legionaries is that Leman Russ ordered that new Space Wolves only come from Fenris, and over time it became that only Fenris could create new Wolves. This is half millenia of adaption on both ends and half that the Wolves interbreed with their population excessively, and it slowly mutated the population of Fenris to Abhuman levels. Ever wondered why in Darkness Abound a Fenrisan woman blocked a World Eaters chainaxe with her forearm, before tearing it loose from his grip and beating him to a bloody pulp with her bare hands. That was a combination of Fenrisian genetics being bullshit and the World Spirit of Fenris flowing through her. A world spirit that only is as powerful as it is now because the Wolves fucked around with the population.
As for the flaws of the Blood Angels specifically, thats mostly due to them becoming more and more psykiclly attuned than ever before. The latest generations of Blood Angel geneseed have a 20% Psyker awakening rate, which is nearly equivalent to the Thousand Sons of all legions, and there is no Blood Angel who is not sensitive to Psykic powers and events. Which makes there flaws ever increase in scope and scale.
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Oh, my bad. Yeah, in terms of it being a detriment to their fighting ability, thankfully those haven't been quite so effectided, but I stand by the idea that the Geneseed of most of the Marines today, have been mutated and warped from even the most positive of occasions in the past. Which, can and does lead to both new problems presenting themselves for us in the future, but also new opportunities as well. Case in point with the Blood Angels as you already mentioned.
At least with the Avengers, since we have Ultramarine stock, we don't have to worry about impurities showing up nearly as much as those of other chapters. Not that it doesn't suck for them now.
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Metatron
Celestial Scribe Enoch
I updated my post by the by, with some additional information. And I agree with you as well that it certainly isn't as pure as old stock, I just think it has a as of yet limited impact on their ability to fight.
And yes, as Ultramarine descendants we are probably good on the mutation front. Unless we mess around with some things we shouldn't.
Spylobster
Centrist-Malenyevist
I thought it was sort of up to debate whether the Mk 7 power armour is better than the Mk 4? From what I understand, Mk 7 is easier and cheaper to produce and maintain but Mk 4 has better suit systems. It should be noted that the Mk 7 is technically a 30K design, too, with nothing really surpassing it in 10,000 years until the Primaris armours.
Any chance you'd be willing to add Defence Monitor - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum to the list?
Super cheap Warp-less system defense ships.
They have to get towed to the systems they will be stationed at.
The space wolf part, does not surprise me in the least. Props to the women tanking a solid ChainAxe to the Arm, but I'm also reminded of the Seige of Fenris, and… that whole thing.
As for the time bit, I originally had this part deleted as it was overly long and getting away from the argument.
Before the Gathering Storm, and if things had not decided to involve apocalypses happening right around the exact same year. Their could actually be a genuine argument be made, that Space Marines in general would fall extinct, not from combat (though that would most certainly be part of it), but thanks to just pure good old Genetics. If astartes Organs are no longer at a stage where they should be registering just fine, or inherited flaws start getting out of hand, Like the Rage and the Wulfen, then practically all of the Space Marines could just simply die from their own genetics failing them. It was a practical certainty for the BA before the Indomitus happened, and it finally also allowed other Space Wolfs to Recruit outside of Fenris again.
But like, had Cawl been late for another 500 years, or Abby had waited a little longer, at least 2 legions, and some of their successor chapters would have just purely fallen from their own genetic flaws and he wouldn't have even needed to touch them in order to make it happen sooner.
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As for the time bit, I originally had this part deleted as it was overly long and getting away from the argument.
Before the Gathering Storm, and if things had not decided to involve apocalypses happening right around the exact same year. Their could actually be a genuine argument be made, that Space Marines in general would fall extinct, not from combat (though that would most certainly be part of it), but thanks to just pure good old Genetics. If astartes Organs are no longer at a stage where they should be registering just fine, or inherited flaws start getting out of hand, Like the Rage and the Wulfen, then practically all of the Space Marines could just simply die from their own genetics failing them. It was a practical certainty for the BA before the Indomitus happened, and it finally also allowed other Space Wolfs to Recruit outside of Fenris again.
But like, had Cawl been late for another 500 years, or Abby had waited a little longer, at least 2 legions, and some of their successor chapters would have just purely fallen from their own genetic flaws and he wouldn't have even needed to touch them in order to make it happen sooner.
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Nah, it was an all round better armour in comparison to Mk. 4. It just had the flaw of Master of all, master of none. But then that was what the slow, painfully slow, roll out of the new and improved Mk. 8 was for. But then Cawl came and then it was all about the Mk. 10.
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