A Simple Transaction I

Shard · Jun 11, 2023

Pittauro said:
this part actually confused me.

Aren't 5 picks fight basically fights you're REALLY supposed to lose, but you win anyway because you find a way through?

How would 10-picks fight even be viable? Isn't that basically the equivalent of a normal human fighting, say, Goku?

...well, I suppose a normal human could trick Goku or poison him, but you get what I mean. If the number of picks scale to your personal power, then there should be a number of picks (and I kinda suspected it to be 6 or 7 picks) when winning is outright impossible. Or are you meant to become stronger mid-fight? Wouldn't that LOWER the number of picks?

A HCB would be capable of handling the 5-pick version of the Maiden and be alright. When we only believed ourselves capable of handling only 2.

You know, the one with Flower of Victory, etc.

Wolfy · Jun 11, 2023

HoratioVonBecker said:
.
But you understand why people are worried about value drift?

Because they don't dare to argue Vengeance for what it is so they make up dumb strawman to hit instead?
We are not getting either of those by the way.

Microwave MKII · Jun 11, 2023

[X] Vengeance

ImperatorV · Jun 11, 2023

I am simply unwilling to vote for a 99+% chance of failure. Vengeance, in the long run, most likely results in a tragic ending, something I very much do not want and see no reason to risk.

This is especially true when we have a guaranteed small-scale success as the other choice. Hunger getting his family back and roaming the cosmos as a hero is objectively a good thing, the Vengeance voters just refuse to accept a good thing when they have the chance, even a very small one, of a more total victory.

And, of course, no Vengeance argument I have seen has addressed a very pressing issue, that of "But what if the Forebear returned fights against the Accursed, something the Accursed himself has brought up as a possibility?" This is a very serious problem and deserves more coverage then I've seen it get.

Wolfy · Jun 11, 2023

You didn't see it because "it's a trap option" argement is fucking stupid and people who make it are also fucking stupid. Is this answer satisfactory?
Hunger failing is just him dying in some time in future, no tragedy involved specifically.

ilbgar123 · Jun 12, 2023

Wolfy said:
You didn't see it because "it's a trap option" argement is fucking stupid and people who make it are also fucking stupid. Is this answer satisfactory?
Hunger failing is just him dying in some time in future, no tragedy involved specifically.

I trust The Accursed on this more than you dude.

ImperatorV · Jun 12, 2023

Also trying to argue that trap options can't possibly exist, in this of all quests, is just silly. Or was Absorb the Tower of Earth just a fluke? What about when Rihaku allowed Vengeance + Sword that Ends the World to make it to consolidation twice during the very first vote of the quest, despite the high chance that said combination would end the quest as soon as it began? We had the option to fight Seram Law FFS. This has never been a quest where every option is equally good and viable.

EDIT: On reflection, I think I should clarify a point here. I do not think Vengeance is an objectively inferior choice, which is how this post may have come across. However, I think dismissing the possibility that it results in Hunger turning on the Accursed in the long run is foolish, especially when the rational for that dismissal is "There cannot possibly be consequences that bad for taking the risk here".

HoratioVonBecker · Jun 12, 2023

Shard said:
A HCB would be capable of handling the 5-pick version of the Maiden and be alright. When we only believed ourselves capable of handling only 2.

You know, the one with Flower of Victory, etc.

Hey, remember how I and Aabcehmu actually voted for that? I think the latter might've been due to me calling a votemarker.
It's not like the final Maiden didn't have Shattering Blow. Or a diplomacy chance, for that matter.

Shard · Jun 12, 2023

HoratioVonBecker said:
Hey, remember how I and Aabcehmu actually voted for that? I think the latter might've been due to me calling a votemarker.
It's not like the final Maiden didn't have Shattering Blow. Or a diplomacy chance, for that matter.

Well, we would have lost. Probably.

Pittauro · Jun 12, 2023

I wonder if we could have afforded to fight a stronger Maiden...

GenericName · Jun 12, 2023

I have yet to see anyone say WHY hunger would fight the accursed beyond a blurb quote reminiscing on the hard fought battle they once had. There's zero actual reasoning, it makes no sense for Hunger to fight the accursed at all. He's a cursebearer, the entire point of vengeance is to lift the Tyrants curse. I can't reasonably argue against this, because there is no reasoning beyond the accursed making a blurb comment. If there were some level of discussion about WHY Hunger would rebel against the Accursed, I could argue against that, but any argument I make against the blurb will be countered by "well the Accursed knows more than you."

ilbgar123 · Jun 12, 2023

GenericName said:
I have yet to see anyone say WHY hunger would fight the accursed beyond a blurb quote reminiscing on the hard fought battle they once had. There's zero actual reasoning, it makes no sense for Hunger to fight the accursed at all. He's a cursebearer, the entire point of vengeance is to lift the Tyrants curse. I can't reasonably argue against this, because there is no reasoning beyond the accursed making a blurb comment. If there were some level of discussion about WHY Hunger would rebel against the Accursed, I could argue against that, but any argument I make against the blurb will be countered by "well the Accursed knows more than you."

Value drift. If Hunger just turns out as 'The Forebear, but with Progression.' that's not much of a guarantee that he won't end up at odds with The Accursed. Haeliel and Gisena will work to keep him in line, but there are limits to the former's ability to influence someone she sees a few times a year, assuming Apocryphal doesn't screw things up for her again like with Mordred. Speaking of which, Apocryphal would totally have them go at it for round 2. The Crowning Curses are potent enough to have real agency, and messing with Hunger as a proc to pit him against his current patron is the sort of play it pulled with Aobaru. The Accursed has Apocryphal too, after all.

Gisena will probably do better, but Hunger can only bend so far, and Inheritance prevents any further Tyrant Mitigation because it's just the way he is, so he won't bend any further. When was the last time Gisena opposed him on something he had seriously committed to and actually swayed him?

Honestly, if I had the money I'd ask R about Wishing up an EFB version of Slice Fate in hopes it would notably improve his odds for either or both options.

VII · Jun 12, 2023

[X] Vengeance

There was only ever one choice.

formalAI · Jun 12, 2023

GenericName said:
I have yet to see anyone say WHY hunger would fight the accursed beyond a blurb quote reminiscing on the hard fought battle they once had. There's zero actual reasoning, it makes no sense for Hunger to fight the accursed at all. He's a cursebearer, the entire point of vengeance is to lift the Tyrants curse. I can't reasonably argue against this, because there is no reasoning beyond the accursed making a blurb comment. If there were some level of discussion about WHY Hunger would rebel against the Accursed, I could argue against that, but any argument I make against the blurb will be countered by "well the Accursed knows more than you."

If we want to figure out why the Forebear reborn might one day again take arms against the Accursed, the obvious first question to ask would be why the original Forebear took up arms against him. And the answer is pretty obvious, Rihaku has dropped plenty of hint in the Discord:

R' — 06/07/2023 9:05 PM
Indeed. There are some who believe no one should be trusted with absolute power
and the Accursed certainly is not maximially compassionate among possible overbeings
So naturally there are those who oppose him by principle of that nature rather than his stated goals
even if they are ultimately
very sympathetic to the latter

R' — 08/17/2020 1:01 AM
it's not just that there were entities that
opposed the Accursed's vision
R' — 08/17/2020 1:01 AM
there were also those entities that simply didn't trust his ascension
how many people with good intentions would you trust with nigh omnipotence
R' — 08/17/2020 1:02 AM
even if he purports to reveal his true intentions to you
via a fail-safe method
how do you know he's not just THAT good
at lying
he's THAT good at everything else, after all

The Forebear was the very incarnation of Tyranny and that will also be true of the Forebear reborn:

Rihaku said:
Uttermost, End: The Doom of Tyranny is removed from Hunger's Curses; rather, it is simply how the Forebear is. 'Mitigation' is meaningless and impossible for such a fundamental pillar of the Forebear's essential nature.

If we now look at the description of the Doom of Tyranny as the Forebear originally inflicted it on the Accursed:

Rihaku said:
May you forever disregard the counsel of your lessors, no matter their wisdom or cunning. May you stifle all law and paradigm not born solely of your writ. May you carry on unswervingly until the bitter and uttermost end.

May you be doomed to tyranny in deed, and in name forevermore.

It's pretty obvious why the Forebear would never trust anybody else with completely unassailable power... Now, maybe the Forebear reborn will be better, after all the version of Tyranny Hunger received came pre-mitigated so as to allow him to listen to the Accursed:

Rihaku said:
[ ] Doom of the Tyrant - You absolutely refuse to submit to, or even acknowledge the legitimacy of, any rule, custom, law or authority above your own, unless that authority is at least as powerful as a specific instruction from the Accursed himself. Your ability to operate within the context of any organization you are not unequivocally in charge of is utterly crippled. Diplomacy is a laughable dream.

Enemies that are aware of this can provoke you via reverse psychology, though this can only cause you to attack them - you aren't compelled to do the opposite of whatever they order. This Curse comes pre-mitigated in that it does not affect the Accursed, but is very difficult to mitigate further.

Though given that the description of Uttermost, End state that "Mitigation is meaningless and impossible for such a fundamental pillar of the Forebear's essential nature" I'm not even sure that remains true if Hunger chooses to fully embrace his identity as the Forebear... Might be a good thing for Rihaku to clarify! But in any case, if Hunger chooses Vengeance, he is choosing to disregard a specific instruction from the Accursed himself, which is not a good sign, to say the least...

Ultimately it comes down to trust: Does Hunger trust the Accursed when the Accursed tells him to chose Freedom, because he doesn't want to have to fight the Forebear again? If you think Hunger would trust the Accursed, vote for Freedom, if you think he wouldn't, then vote for Vengeance. But if you do the later, don't be surprised if, in the future, the Forebear reborn also choses not trust the Accursed with ultimate, complete and unassailable control over everything, everywhere, forever.

If you are willing to trust the Accursed with that kind of ultimate Hegemony (escalated through NaN transfinite escalation of cardinalities, etc.) then you should also be willing to trust him to know which of Freedom or Vengeance is the best option.

Sara · Jun 12, 2023

ilbgar123 said:
I trust The Accursed on this more than you dude.

To be honest 99.999999999% of the reason I'm voting for vengeance.

It's difficult for me to get invested in further Cursebearer content if pretty much every argument involving a option with Accursed Favor devolves into 'well anything other then the vote that gives the most Accursed Favor is objectively wrong/dumb/suboptimal because he's a infallible god king and the curses that are his most defining feature have no meaningful effect on that judgement'

I'd gladly take even the slimmest chances to have a chance at even the most threadbare piece of evidence in future discussions that, maybe, sometimes, once in a blue moon, having the most accursed favor does not make a option the best.

Sara · Jun 12, 2023

Sara said:
To be honest 99.999999999% of the reason I'm voting for vengeance.

It's difficult for me to get invested in further Cursebearer content if pretty much every argument involving a option with Accursed Favor devolves into 'well anything other then the vote that gives the most Accursed Favor is objectively wrong/dumb/suboptimal because he's a infallible god king and the curses that are his most defining feature have no meaningful effect on that judgement'

I'd gladly take even the slimmest chances to have a chance at even the most threadbare piece of evidence in future discussions that, maybe, sometimes, once in a blue moon, having the most accursed favor does not make a option the best.

To springboard on this in a attempt to sound less harsh and to say something more constructive to the ongoing discussion, I'm actually preety keen on this Accursed guy. Would def be a partisan of the Victorious world if he was real!

But in the context of a quest narrative, large portions of the voter uncritically giving his personal feelings a omniscient morality license is absurdly detrimental to my ability to engage with any discussion where that's relevant,, because how could you possibly reason people out of that position, and takes a lot of the fun out of what I like quests.

The closest equivalent would be if we were playing some bibical themed quest where actual literal 'yes there actually all knowing and all powerful and all good' God would occasionally chime in to tell us what's the best move. Their'd be nothing to really meaningfully engage with because the counterarguements would always boil down 'okay but a literally omniscient being is telling us to do this so it must be correct regardless any other piece of evidence or reasoning that something else is better.

Which isn't Rihaku's fault, I'm almost certain part of the reason he created a lot behavior and cognition effecting curses was specifically to circumvent this problem, but it has not stopped a surprisingly huge amount of the voter base from treating anything the accursed has feelings on like the above example.

Wolfy · Jun 12, 2023

I mean, he is certainly not infailable. For normal person, the reason why Accursed prefers Freedom is because he irrationality but understanbly wants Hunger to rest even if that is inefficient for his overall goal.
Meanwhile delusional people think it is because Accrused is long thing afraid of what Hunger might become, as if that notion is not embarrassingly stupid to contemplate.

LordOfMurder · Jun 12, 2023

Projectile said:
The great plan of the (Hidden Ones/Apocryphal Curse/??) is to keep Hunger Tyrannical because that keeps the Curse active. Stop pressing the Tyranny button. I'm pretty sure the best way to help the Accursed is to stop cursing him.

From the first post, from the Freedom option. Freedom is Vengeance- we just wouldn't have known we'd succeeded, back then.

How did you read a quote that says the Lathe of Heaven is the promise of creating a kinder world, then a quote that reads that Apocryphal stops resisting us if we give up the Lathe of Heaven and decide that makes it a good idea?

The quote at the top of the post is also just Hunger's thoughts as to why he makes the decision in the world where he chooses that option.

Box Lunch · Jun 12, 2023

Wolfy said:
I mean, he is certainly not infailable. For normal person, the reason why Accursed prefers Freedom is because he irrationality but understanbly wants Hunger to rest even if that is inefficient for his overall goal.
Meanwhile delusional people think it is because Accrused is long thing afraid of what Hunger might become, as if that notion is not embarrassingly stupid to contemplate.

It could also be that Vengeance is wholly unnecessary for the Accursed's overall goal, and it is but one path for Doom of the Tyrant mitigation.

LordOfMurder · Jun 12, 2023

formalAI said:
You know who else isn't stupid? The Accursed.

If it's so obvious that the Forebear reborn will never again take up arms against the Accursed and we don't need to worry about it... Why does the Accursed bring it up as a possibility?

The Accursed isn't stupid! If he brings it up as a possibility it's because it's a real concern! If you seriously think you know better than the Accursed himself, then I don't know what to tell you...

Because the Accursed is a big softy who also operates on the kind of scale where he has to worry about things even if they're really unlikely? I mean given Hunger's odds of reaching High Cursebearer are considered incredibly good in comparison, the vast majority of Cursebearers he appoints are just being handed a death sentence. Yet he keeps doing it since ever so often even the impossible actually happens.

So even if it's basically impossible that Hunger with Gisena would actually betray the accursed I guess he still has to account for it?

LordOfMurder · Jun 12, 2023

It's time to truly begin the hunt for the Tactic. The tactic was a powerup method or way of fighting the Maiden that was so strong it compared with the powerup Hunger gets from taking Vengeance!

According to Rihaku on the 21/4/23 in Discord "There is a vague clue as to this tactic within a threadmarked post of mine within the last 100 pages of the thread"
This works out to a threadmark somewhere between Ever Brighter and Ineptitude V2 including those two threadmarks. There are 13 threadmarks in this range.

On the 8/6/23 Rihaku said "considering the person who posted the closest thing to the tactic was you, Orm Embar". Hopefully this is in the same time range as Rihaku's first clue since Orm has posted way too much for anyone to want to go back through all of them. If we take it to mean somewhere between Ever Brighter and the 8/6/23 then there are about 94 posts by Orm. Here is a multi-quote of the ones I found with a quick search that are obviously discussing Maiden fight tactics.

Orm Embar said:
To be fair, he's dead inside.

Anyway, it could be interesting to raise Vanreir for a chat about the Forebear's legacy, as he has perspective on what the other end of the equation looks like. Rereading his interlude knowing that Hunger was the Forebear's a bit of a trip. His father sacrificed everything just to prove the sincerity of their cause, the depth of their desperation... only for the reincarnated and amnesiac Forebear to come along and kill his own descendant. So much for the Forebear's promise:

What exactly happened here, anyway? The obliteration of the Foremost may have been a stop on the Forebear's Procession, but the Dynasty deployment process clearly went awry, if we're meant to pass judgment on the Amarlt line. Multiple civil wars, internecine strife, etc. Ceathlynn's the only other one remaining we know of, and she's an AU version of Hunger's wife! Forget a family tree, this is tumbleweed territory.

But that's a narrative consideration, honestly, and has no bearing on what tactics are optimal for this Apocryphal proc. I just like him as a character and think it'd be cool to read. Hunger hasn't discussed that revelation with anyone on-screen, though maybe Gisena weaseled it out of him during the last nine months. At best it could cash out to +Mental Stability or something.

Doesn't seem like there's anything here.

Orm Embar said:
Well, the Maiden's here and even more of a buzzkill than anticipated, which is saying something. I bet her emergence included one-liners with dramatic timing for everyone in Hungertopia, or at least every character of relevance. No need to expend Arete, there's an ~~app~~ Grace for that! What does she even want, other than serving as a proxy for Bad Cat's vengeance? Faeliad said she "would not take kindly to what he has made of her ancestral Realm," but what are her specific concerns? By what right does she presume to upend what he's made of the Sphere? 'Might alone,' that old chestnut? Her name on some cosmic lease dating back to the time of the Foremost?

If the Porcelain Faction from the first AST is representative, maybe she just has philosophical objections to autocrats whatever their commitment to their subjects' welfare. Nevermind that Hunger's reign will last only decades. Disregard his successor's laissez-faire inclinations. Who cares about the preferences of the people living in his lands? There's no ongoing Decimation; the Apocryphal Curse was previously well in hand. What an aggravating adversary, declining to lay out a coherent position for us to poke holes in. Really, this whole affair would call Hunger's taste in waifus into question had Gisena not already poisoned that well as thoroughly as she does every meal she touches!

...Like Letrizia looking down on Republic scum, taking potshots at Gisena is simply part of my core values. Even if Seram's own Remittance has been returned, even if her utility and loyalty to Hunger have been proven beyond question, I can no more stop than Hunger's subjects can rebel.

Anyway, my ability to generate tactics for a fight of this level is somewhat limited, but here goes. The Realm of Daylight 'complements and utterly opposes' the Realm of Evening. The converse is presumably also true. Yet evening is day's end; Hunger doesn't command the Realm of Night, but the subset of it which heralds the end of one's waking hours. Could be a conceptual vulnerability there. She can't truly rest, so an endurance-focused strat centered around wearing her down with Ruin could help, so long as she doesn't destroy the Sphere and trip the Geas' loss condition.

Making use of our subjects as something other than a cheerleading squad to proc Supreme Commander. With all the technological advancement going on, surely mankind's collective ingenuity with Gisena as project lead brings something to the table. Or so I hope. It'd be poetic justice to win because what Hunger offers hews closer to what humanity actually desires: security, an end to suffering. The zenith of the Foremost has come and gone, and the actions of their Shards (except the Emissary, you're cool) have done little to indicate that isn't for the best. Let the beleaguered and war-ravaged polities of the Sphere rest beneath Evening's aegis.

Then there's the nature of the vessel. However shredded by the sacrifices she's made to prosecute her vendetta, the Maiden's inhabiting Ceathlynn. If Hunger has resurrected Moren Tao, he might provoke the moment's hesitation that was decisive against Procyon again. Hopefully the Tyrant's Doom doesn't prohibit restoring those who died defying him, but Hunger's demonstrated respect for worthy opponents. Could be worth extending this 'play the man, not the ball' approach to the Maiden, consulting surviving Shards for information about her, but however fungible time's become there may not be enough of it to conduct research. But that's what Gisena is for.

Some tactics here but apparently the Tactic is limited to Hunger and broadly applicable so these don't seem to be quite right.

Orm Embar said:
I see it's 'produce tactics or die' time again:

Consolidate all Human Sphere armies under a single command, to ensure maximum benefits from Armies of the Shogun. Depending on the form of their empowerment they may be able to project Hunger's power and protect the Sphere.

The period before this scaling kicks in is dangerous. However, we see Letrizia manipulate time in the latest interlude, so it may be possible to grandfather in this remilitarization and training. Playing Syndics could count.

Speaking of training, if the Sphere Defense Force is able to hold the line Hunger can now benefit from regular Progression. Sparring with the upgraded troops en masse might also generate picks given the stakes.

Mentioned on Discord, repeated here for redundancy's sake: the Maiden is inhabiting Catherine of Amarlt (aka. Bad Cat), the last descendant of a defunct Dynasty. The Ring of Blood and/or authority as the Forebear could potentially exploit this.

Play the woman, not the ball. The Maiden's morality is a mystery, but according to Faeliad the stated reason she'd agree to this is that Hunger's trampling all over her ancestral Realm. It's possible Faeliad is referring to a step on the Forebear's Procession where he destroyed the Foremost, but the most straightforward reading is that she has principled objections to what Hunger's currently doing.

Principled objections imply principles. If she cares so much for the Sphere and the Realms within, perhaps she's unwilling (or reluctant to a degree that'll manifest in her tactics) to destroy it if that devastation would be difficult to reverse. Taking one's own fiefdom hostage is audacious, but eh. Desperate times, desperate measures.

Consider invoking Fisher King and letting the Decimation run. This is more of an Imperishable Night tactic, but if Hunger's composite forces exceed his own power by orders of magnitude then he doesn't need to do all the fighting himself. The twin Afflictions could be a worthwhile tradeoff if the Decimation hits the Maiden and not Hunger's own legions/territory. Could also be synergistic with attrition-based bleed stratagems. I'm aware there's a huge splash radius, but with the situation being what it is, I don't particularly give a shit.

Don't get betrayed by Aobaru again. Blood Halo places a lot of weight on someone whose loyalty has proven tenuous in the past. Once more, the Hero finds himself in a position to bring about Hunger's downfall. What happens if the Maiden makes him an offer?

Visit Nilfel or whatever part of Hungertopia has the most continuity with it. I have no idea if it's even a discrete polity these days, but we did spend a Heroic Advancement on Season's Greetings and then never used the Apocryphal leeway. Now is the time to cash in.

Closing the Fist, or some permutation thereof. Fuse with all Companions, or even the entirety of Hunger's forces if that's feasible! Striking the Maiden down as one composite entity would be a comprehensive rejection of both her and Catherine's ideals.

Alternatively, just fucking swap to Inheritance, applying True Sanctum to the entirety of Hunger's territories and obviating this problem. Much of the quest up to this point has been about how Hunger's sheer power carries the party past trials that would have destroyed them. In those few situations where strength fails, Gisena steps in to provide a solution. Inheritance is the most fitting final build for the quest we actually played: embracing the Forebear's identity at every turn, cutting through every challenge, and shouldering every cost through sheer will.

It also allows Arete generated over the course of the hiatus to contribute to Hunger's victory % directly, instead of just bolstering the odds of companion survival. Given the length of time elapsed the arsenal of content created is immense, so even the 'modest' conversion rate would be an enormous boon. Having come so far and triumphed so many times, it would be a shame to stumble at the final step, especially when it's in truth only the first of Hunger's Indenture.

Big tactics post I've bolded the ones that I think could possibly be a clue to the Tactic. Rihaku thought it was extremely unlikely that we'd properly support the tactic, not sure if that's because we didn't have enough time or voting sway or if the tactic itself would be repugnant to the voter base.

Orm Embar said:
Some ideas regarding tactics, in roughly increasing order of how harebrained they are:

Repeal the Interdict of Cognition using Hunger's domain of Law, then have Gisena create aligned intelligences. Within Hunger's sphere of influence time can be bent to facilitate growth; presumably Blood Halo's buffs will also be beneficial.

Send Aobaru into the Realm of Daylight to subvert it with his mastery of the concept and/or benefit from the same infinite training time that made the Maiden such a threat. It's possible whatever she's built with the Archsmith's Hammer is stored there too.

Abandon his love for Catherine. The Maiden's beauty transcends context, but that she resembles Hunger's dead wife can't help. Can be done through a supreme act of will or partial Shattering Blow fueled by his memories of her.

Attack the Maiden's vessel, either through the bloodline that was once a Dynasty or exploiting dissonance between her and Ceathlynn.

Manually reset Pillars of Creation's cooldown by manipulating time and/or the universe (credit to Addio for this).

Increase Hunger's power over the Realm of Evening through more Imprisonment. Toss traitors who started simping for the Maiden into gilded cages, crack down on Adorie's yard time if she still exists as a discrete person post-Vendetta, etc.

Something insomnia and Evening-related? The Maiden can't sleep, Hunger is both immune to fatigue-imposing effects due to Might's Repose and grows stronger with rest. Currently losing too quickly to see anything viable; would've been neat for Imperishable Night.

Bring back Dien and see if that fucker can come up with anything useful. If fully resurrecting the Arcanist anyway for the merger, maybe we can get other Foremost who'd be opposed to the Maiden?

Ransack the Realm in search of mitigation outside its confines or deeper secrets, like whatever granted us the Refinement of Battle. Perhaps some sort of... sharklike entity could assist?

Simply become the Forebear? How this could work beyond Hunger declaring himself such is unclear, but it's the prospect the Maiden herself is worried about:

I'm not too optimistic about strategies involving diplomacy with the Maiden. A ten percent chance that she'd be willing negotiate was the silver lining of Unbidden Grace, which we didn't pick. Perhaps the Apocryphal Curse is inflaming her hostility, but it's statistics like that which lend credence to Ilbgar's opinion of the woman.

Bolded likely candidates. A bunch of Realm of Evening hypotheticals in this one.

Orm Embar said:
It's almost certainly not the tactic that's been teased, as I don't see how a romantic resolution or Shattering Blow could improve Hunger's outcomes going forward and allow him to defeat a stagnant Nameless. But it is a tactic that could be relevant versus the Maiden, against whom it's been made clear we need all the help we're going to get - and plausibly some we aren't.

Resurrecting Catherine herself might work similarly but didn't make the list. Gisena's been raising people, but findross-based methods may not stretch beyond this universe and there are the consequences of stealing a soul from the Hidden Ones to consider. She's compatible with Lucenthorne, but Hunger's probably outscaled the 'nigh-limitless power of Hope, Love, and Determination' at this point. Which leaves harnessing the connection to her alternate self somehow, a tenuous prospect at best. At worst she'd be a distraction or die immediately.

Not sure what the second paragraph is referring to, but maybe?

Now I'm going to go read through all of orm's post and try and figure out which one might be talking about this tactic. Please help! Allegedly according to Rihaku if we find the Tactic it will improve the epilogue.

LordOfMurder · Jun 12, 2023

There are actually surprisingly few relevant tactics posts from Orm! I've checked all of his posts from the 4th of April 2021 till now and included the ones I think might be possibly relevant below. I excluded pretty much all of the CYOA related posts after skimming over them, hopefully Rihaku was referring to a tactic that directly referenced Hunger and not one Orm stumbled upon during the time this was a CYOA thread.

I found only 6 posts even vaguely relevant and including the quotes in my post above there only 3 posts where Orm spams a bunch of tactics! After this I'll go through the 13 threadmarked Rihaku posts and try and cross reference them to see if I can narrow down the clue to the Tactic.

Once again I've bolded the parts of the posts I think might be relevant but left them as is in case i'm suffering from tunnel vision.

Orm Embar said:
Losing the Azure is actually quite painful, since Hunger went through the entire Temple arc to get it. The party's capabilities as a whole aren't diminished - rather the opposite, in fact - but Archmage probably should've mentioned a non-Arete cost required to awaken it; some people were against Broken Kaleidoscope simply because it sacrificed the ring. However, it's hard to argue against the exigency of our circumstances. Hunger himself accepted and assisted with the Azure's destruction, so we can only trust his judgment of its necessity, just as he trusted Gisena's.

At least Adorie can appreciate the amenities of Hotel Hunger while he deals with Dien? Recent events have taken a psychological toll on her. A stay in the Realm of Evening would be beneficial if time passes for her while the party's outside (might not be the case if it's similar to Heavenly Tomb), especially with the Mental Stability aspect of November Sky in play. She can continue to contribute without being exposed to Dien's machinations; even the ivory tower isolation of her youth is made retroactively meaningful.

It's an elegant solution, as is implementing Archmage by applying Hunger's control over the Realm of Evening to reality itself. Training to control its functions should translate to power beyond its confines now. It's (pleasantly) surprising that we received the Sky in process. Whether that was a Wish or not, it's worth considering Heavenly Tomb and/or the Imprisoner's Refinement Praxis line to see if that aspect can be improved upon. Gaining proficiency with our expanded capabilities is probably going to eat up Arete, though.

We're presented with a paralyzing plethora of options: calling upon monstrosities like the Epochal Thing, repairing the Blade, amplifying his own cognition, reverting or even reverse-engineering Dien's creation for augmentation, manifesting findross singularities to be subsumed by the Sophont Halo, etc. It's going to take time to get a sense of Hunger's newfound limits, though that's a good problem to have. I've always liked the Cloak's aesthetics, so Archmage being a stealth Evening Sky option takes the sting out of losing.

Hunger being the Forebear was guessed back when OaF first appeared as an advancement, but good god it's gratifying to see the theory confirmed at last! Fortunate that Never Better was victorious, can you imagine the cognitive dissonance of Just a Moment when this bomb dropped? Fine was flat-out wrong. Those versions of Hunger might never have unlocked OaF II, and we'd have been left wondering. It's a testament to the writing's strength that a mage option winning feels thematically compatible with this revelation, though I assume it would've been disclosed regardless of which option won.

This could be an opportune time to pull a partial Pittauro and reread the quest, to see which passages have gained new nuance; the Light of the Soul is also the light of hindsight. Speaking of looking back, I really enjoyed Away and regret that it dropped at a time when I wasn't able to spare much time and energy to comment on it. It's beautiful, blurbs and all. Burning Mirror of Desire is also kind of terrifying, since the Seal of Odyssial being broken means Nilul might be able to target Uly with it.

Moon musing on the potential rehabilitation of the Yozis was a nice callback to the Malfean project groups at the tail end of the Odyssey. Perhaps the Unshattered Kaleidoscope encompasses Shards where that takes place, but reform is reserved for entities with the wisdom not to court their own destruction. Attacking Odyssial's children is an achievement worthy of a Darwin Award. This is simply natural selection in action; Dien would be proud.

Qaf's defection and Sacheverell's suicide are fitting reactions to Odyssial's Scouring of ~~the Shire~~ Malfeas. The former's 'indenture' paints the amusing picture of the All-Piercer as a Cursebearer getting Geas tasks, which would be strange for all involved. The interlude contains a lot of other tantalizing tidbits, like the HMK having expanded to encompass nearly all of probability space. Pretty cool, but also pretty concerning, especially since Odyssial considers him disturbing. Could be reflective of the Lunar focus on Attributes as opposed to Skills, being rather than doing. Hopefully he didn't manage to kill Lea.

Some musing about the Realm of Evening's uses.

Orm Embar said:
[X] Might Alone
[X] War Across the Stars

Raw power is Hunger's greatest advantage against Dien, and raw Rank's the only component of that where Dien has him beat. But as Bearic's fate demonstrates, sufficiently advanced Rank can override all other considerations. He should shore up that weakness before it becomes crippling. Rank also remains really good in its own right with perks like Companions of the King and Supreme Commander. Mostly the latter, party scaling is a perennial problem, but Might Alone's still a shot of relevance to inject the others with.

I'm not exactly deviating from the thread's consensus with this vote, but War Across the Stars is very versatile. They say if you want something done right, do it yourself. Well, now Hunger can be in up to a billion places at once. Which is convenient, because boy does he have a lot of work to do. Here are a few ideas:

Propaganda Actions. They improve Rank-ups and allow for Rank gains from less notable enemies. This term hasn't cropped up in a while, so forgetting it is forgivable, but martial feats aren't actually the sole means of accumulating Astral might! Hunger's just absurd. Crafting and reputation are also part of Accretion, and neglecting the latter aspect means we're underutilizing Breaker of Suns. Trinity II didn't increase our Rank directly, only our modifier when gaining it, but Hunger's memetic appeal is through the roof.

He should consider sending some clones into Association and Empire territory, casting as wide a reputational net as possible in pursuit of Rank and maximizing Supreme Commander. Grant interviews, give accounts of Dien's atrocities. Publicly pledge that he'll pay for what he's done. Make Hungerposting a thing on every messageboard and virtual space under every sun. Can you say #WorthTheDecimation?

Care should be taken to avoid provoking other Shards, as with his current powerset a media blitz is a logical precursor to invasion, but Dien is a great justification for getting away with shit. Send an emissary to the Emissary as well, while remaining mindful of the Tyrant's Doom. It's interesting that the Doom has disappeared almost completely, subsumed into what we think of as Hunger's personality...

After the party and Dien himself, the Emissary's coalition is the preeminent power in the Sphere. Ask Gisena for tips and for a full explanation of how she arranged for its formation, along with the dispositions & idiosyncrasies of its members. If she thinks interacting with the Emissary with halved social/mental stats is a bad idea, heed her advice. Might even be worth sending Hunger's actual body here. Shards have fragments of specialist knowledge but lack power; Hunger has power, but lacks lowercase-r refinement.

The Voyaging Realm. The primary objective should be to get data on what if anything Dien is doing in the Voyaging. Have other Shards awakened within? How does the suppression of the Arcanist interact with the latest Apocryphal proc? Send a few copies back into the Voyaging to check on Nilfel and the Elixir Kingdom. Hunger's wearing a lot of hats these days: Nilfel's Champion, nominal Elixir King, Ring-Lord and Reckoner. At last he'll have force projection equal to his responsibilities.

The secondary objectives are low effort, low-medium yield if there are relevant Surgecrafters or something. Mitigate erosion of Adorie's power-base by preserving the fig leaf used to justify accompanying Hunger. Maybe also drop in on Sten? Hunger did just destroy the Azure, the Temple should know.

Miscellaneous Ideas. Wraith-clones have a tenth of an ISH level in celerity; Aobaru has fractional ISH buffs of his own, which last twenty-four hours. Try and find a way to refresh the buff at range with some combination of Essence/Spirit/Union/Space. If not, blitz the hardest targets first, though given travel time the buff'll likely lapse before they're in position. The ability to get updates from clones (Mind/Space?) should also be high-priority for coordination and info-gathering purposes.

Obviously the Feeder Suns need to go, but subversion is better than destruction. Send clones for them, see about projecting the Sophont Halo's effects through them (Space/Essence/Union?). Chase down all the bait that Dien dangled to divert Hunger from the party's reunion. Ensure the younger party members get as much training as they can handle. Ennoble the forces liberated with the Galvanic Truss and other elements hostile to Dien. Does Hunger know Asterios exists? Because that's a nice Ring he's got, it'd be a shame if some spirits happened to steal it.

I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing, a lot can be done with a clone army; Hunger should have so many plates in the air they blot out the sun. In any case, rereading recent updates reminded me of other things. Most relevantly, this:

The Azure's destruction means the clock is ticking for Gisena. Thankfully Hunger has the Artifice domain now, but he needs to stabilize the Halo or we've essentially wasted 28 Arete. Energy, Essence, and potentially Time (reverting to a stable state) could be relevant to that task as well.

There are so many ideas it's difficult to enumerate them all, much less assemble something that could be called a coherent plan. How to sift the feasible from the fanciful? Which options are pipe dreams; which merely require skill Hunger doesn't yet possess? Where do his new limits lie? Only Rihaku has the necessary knowledge and intuitions to resolve these questions, and the answers are funneled through the bottleneck of limited wordcount.

This is the problem with Archmage. It's a pleasant one, but all we can really do is throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks. A couple non-clone tactics to conclude this already lengthy post, in no particular order of viability or utility:

Use the Mind domain to buff everyone during brainstorming sessions.

Use Mind/Time to delve into Versch's databanks in pursuit of Foremost lore.

Use Space to retain Adorie's Praxis buffs by transposing the properties of her 'prison' onto Hunger's surroundings.

Use Essence/Spirit to extend the duration of or enhance Aobaru's buffs, ties into refreshing clone buffs at range.

Use Essence/Spirit in conjunction with the Sophont Halo and/or Feeder Sun findross to make Aeira the Threnody Sorceress.

Assess the potential of the Life/Essence/Union domains for manufacturing Satiation targets outside the Realm of Evening.

Assuming resolution of the Halo's decay, use Time to accelerate Gisena's research.

Finally, check on the progress of her resurrection Grace. This is relevant not just for Letrizia; Aobaru's father died during the Rotbeast attack and Etrynome is Hunger's next hurdle. Dien's undoubtedly done all sorts of somatic shenanigans to upgrade it, but one weakness persists: a human pilot. If Ceathlynn remains unsubverted as Dien's PoV suggests, then she could be disarmed as a weapon by the promise of a resurrection, as Seram did to Sylvie; hopefully the Hero didn't clone Tao for Ceathlynn. Credit goes to Letrizia for this idea, since I was thinking about how the Archduke's death doesn't even enrage her anymore.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. So if we just talk Ceathlynn down we'll unlock the Subordination of War, right?! Puns aside, the question's worth considering: would Hunger's commitment to vengeance persist in the face of the Hidden Ones offering to resurrect Catherine and his companions, making a paradise realm of his previous world where they all might dwell in eternal idyll? Perhaps now that he's awakened to the truth of his previous existence as the Forebear, but these are the perils of fighting for revenge.

1270 words.

Thoughts on reputation Rank Gain, Clone usage, Imprisoner and Archmage hacks.

Orm also successfully predicts the Freedom option and voters 2 years ahead of the update.

Orm Embar said:
Yep! I believe Rihaku grants more Arete depending on topicality, but people (myself included) have posted things that are far less directly relevant.

Speaking of mitigation, Sliver of Evening can be applied against a Curse for two stages of mitigation lasting a day and a night instead of a perfect dodge. Might be worth using it at the end of the decade-long vacation, before Hunger's shuffled off to his next task? For that matter Hunger should consider popping it now to take the sting out of Dien's Apocryphal assistance.

It's unclear whether Silver stacks with preexisting mitigation. The Realm's effects don't, but it has enough power to fuel Stage VII while within... which in hindsight is either very promising or concerning, because that's what Haeliel has. Where exactly does Evening come from, anyway? If Nameless would have a tough time hitting Stage III it can't be just Foremost detritus.

Realm of the Evening questions.

Orm Embar said:
Hunger finds Aobaru's lack of faith disturbing? If not for his fragmented recollections and the thought not being spoken aloud, you could mistake this for a reference! Though the roles of Tyrant and Hero have ontological import here, Dien's dichotomy was excessively reductive and any system of moral thought that justifies his actions is questionable at best. That said, it's still worth thinking about how the Doom has changed Hunger: he's gone from dying as a result of attempted democratic reforms (itself staggeringly ironic for the Forebear) to an unstoppable steamroller of conquest (again).

Aobaru's not as useful a mirror in that regard as Catherine would've been, but the concerns dismissed here are at least understandable. Many might choose to kill Hunger if faced with the twin threats of Decimation and the Apocryphal Curse. Hunger didn't use Fisher King over the timeskip, despite Fault-Defeating Stance automating growth of the chosen domains, presumably because protecting his territory no longer covers enough of his Decimation radius to be worthwhile. Novakhron's supposed to have synergy with Fisher King, but further investment in that mitigation track may be necessary. Satiation only buys time and has proven unsustainable with Hunger's scaling, and the Realm of Evening's not a resource he can afford to sacrifice.

Recent events prove that Apocryphal mitigation especially is of paramount importance, so I'm going with Unending Hunger despite strong competition from Imprisoner True. This is likely Aobaru's Chains of Fate enemy, arriving in the Epistolary Realm for their Geas task as Hunger himself did in the Voyaging. Appearing as a wound in the world is concerning, as it's a reference to AST 0 regarding how Seram appeared from the perspective of Jotarun's forces in the Orcwaste. Using Imprisoner to seal the Epistolary Realm off from the Human Sphere entirely's one strat that comes to mind; throwing more troops in may only feed the engine of our enemy's hypothetical Progression.

[X] Refinement of Battle: The Best Defense
[X] The Unending Hunger

As for the other part of the build vote, an always-on Refinement of War would be amazingly strong. I don't think anybody's denying that. But keep in mind that if War follows the same upgrade track as Quickness, that may be possible through alternative means in time: Subordination for passive benefits at fifty percent power, Attainment making it permanent at full strength. Upgrading the Power of Ruin through engraving Battle is a much saner use of the Imprisoner's Refinement. If the Iron Fist's anti-mitigation removes the Doom's exception for the Accursed, that could be disastrous in the long run.

Though we're in the endgame of the quest, its conclusion is only the beginning of Hunger's journey. Now's the time to start steering for epilogue outcomes; we should see to it that our protagonist is well-equipped for the eons to come.

Fisher King

Orm Embar said:
[X] The Forebear's Blade - Inheritance

All three options are interesting and thematically appealing, but I'm not confident Imperishable Night has the ability to bring home the win. It depends too heavily on Hunger's ability to scale without removing the Ring's training malus as Blood Halo does and invests too much in quality of life. This is just not the time for that; sometimes victory requires sacrifice, that's the lesson of the Shattering Blow.

The revelation of the opening quote is groundbreaking; if Hunger is the Forebear of Dynasties in full and no longer metaphysically affected by the Tyrant's Doom, can he annull its effects on others? Perhaps the one who Doomed the Accursed to Tyranny in the first place could eventually rescind it. Complete mitigation of a Major Curse would basically be the holy grail...

All else aside I want to see my Wish reach its culmination and get the Haeliel Ending. Mordred kneecapped her screentime by delaying her next two appearances, but I have faith in the Seraph of Heroism's ability to inject the spark of hope Hunger's epilogue so desperately needs. Whatever wins here, whether Hunger himself wins, it's been a pleasure playing with everyone.

Included because in hindsight it seems like Inheritance unlocks the Haeliel Ending because without it we don't have a chance of reaching High Cursebearer.

Orm Embar said:
Point of order, the Tyrant's Doom is not a Crowning Curse; of all the burdens Hunger has shouldered, it's caused him the least inconvenience by far. My hope is that by assuming the mantle of the Forebear, who issued the Doom in the first place, it can be rescinded. What a coup that would be, removing an obstacle to Cursebearer collaboration on a cosmic scale! But regardless of that admittedly theoretical benefit, it's unlikely that any option which unlocks the Haeliel ending would constitute a guaranteed bad end, any more than Blood Halo dooms Hunger to eternal war with no prospect of surcease.

In this post Orm also predicts the Vengeance option!

So in the three tactics posts the most promising candidates seem to be Clone abuse, Realm of Evening exploration, Imprisoner abuse or Archmage shenanigans. Now to read through Rihaku's post in the hope of finding a clue that might point me in the right direction.

LordOfMurder · Jun 12, 2023

Okay I've finished going through Rihaku's threadmarked posts as well, I'm once again assuming and fervantly hoping that the answer doesn't lie in any of the CYOA posts. I've bolded the parts I feel are relevant.

Only two story posts in this time span. There are also a few build votes concering more options for close the fist and vendetta, but I left those out since they all cost arete and so probably aren't related to the Tactic.

The rest of the posts are all CYOA related.

Rihaku said:
Ever Brighter

"Grand Duchess." The former Republic officer bowed deeply, his compatriots falling swiftly to a knee. Admiral Justait Everkorn had been eight hundred years of age and ravaged by terminal nano-temporal infection even before Dien Bravo had enslaved and assimilated him; that he stood before Letrizia today was a testament to the Princess-Regent's ingenuity, and their overlord's sheer might.

The Grand Duchess smiled. That, at least, the former Republic dog understood implicitly. The populace of her rival polity had transformed from irredeemably corrupt to irredeemably cloying; nowhere within Hunger's dominion was support stronger or more steadfast than the resurrected sycophants she'd once sought entirely to destroy.

All things could change, mused Letrizia - the course of the stars, the fabric of time and space, the laws of metaphysics, her own essential nature - but the worthlessness of the Republic never would. Former Imperial territories were, relatively speaking, properly rambunctious and ungrateful to the ruler that had saved them from annihilation: just as her father had taught her they'd be.

Hunger's echo at her side shifted slightly, blinking once as it turned to regard the far wall. The wraith-clone was one of millions, its power so minuscule as to be humanly imperceptible against the supernova blaze of its progenitor; yet still this insignificant and non-sentient particle of their overlord's will held power enough to extinguish Armaments at a stroke; to engage with the force of entire universes compressed and emerge wholly unabated.

There was a time when such absolute power would have bothered her. As Aeira had once put it: all agency, all purpose, all will within the inescapable and infinitely-vast reach of Lord Hunger existed only at his sufferance, save for the actions of his Curses and perhaps those of the Princess-Regent.

Aobaru liked to think he had carved out some measure of independence; but if Hunger ever truly disapproved of anything that went on in the Voyaging Realm, the Cursebearer had already made manifestly clear that even his presumptive heir apparent could do little to oppose him.

Once such thoughts would have driven her towards a place somewhat akin to despair, but no longer. That part of her had been excised. It no longer existed.

Idly Letrizia shook her head. No, it was better to say it had been transformed, and of her own volition, so that she could become a person who could not only accept Hunger's reign, but thrive within it. With the power he had granted them - casual efflux of his passage, the barest shadow of his own might - it was trivial to reshape one's own mind, unbound by Curses as Letrizia was. Gisena had regarded herself as essentially perfect, only scaling up her 'effectiveness' in every parameter: and perhaps she was, in her self-appointed role as Hunger's - counterpart. But Letrizia had no such overriding purpose.

The Republic had been dissolved. Human Sphere geo-spatial politics were essentially irrelevant. Her relatives and subjects were all avenged or resurrected, their influence and prosperity nigh-incomparable even within the utopian abundance of Hunger's reign. She partook in rule because it'd seemed, at the time, like the thing to do... and because, with her new faculties of cogitation and manifestation, it was no more than a trivial distraction from her greater interests anyway. The science of Rank had exploded in leaps and bounds with the all-defining lodestone of Lord Hunger to serve as example, and Princess Allria had done Letrizia the somewhat condescending favor of neglecting to advance the field with her own inconceivably superior abilities.

A month ago Letrizia would have been piqued, but she now was so transcendently beyond humanity that such an emotion lacked all discernible context. Perhaps even Lord Hunger retained more of his essential nature than she had, despite being shackled by fundamentally inhuman curses.

They had all taken their own chosen paths to ascension, some more solitary than others. In that regard hers was the most unnatural mentality to emerge from the locus, but Letrizia in no way regarded herself as lesser, or weaker, for it. Regardless of emotion she could now always take the action her mind knew was correct, and no amount of negativity could weigh down or blot out the nigh-unspeakable joy infused into the perennial quanta of her existence. Nor did such radiant happiness undermine or compromise her decision-making faculties whatsoever. Unbound by space or time to the degree that it did not interfere with Hunger's own meta-perceptions, Letrizia surfed the Astral currents on vessels of thought and grace.

There were worse things to have become, she knew.

As a child, she had brought bread to a devouring monster, that she might wield it as an implement for the preservation of her House. She had forged herself into a weapon for nation and peoples, in lieu of her father that could do so no longer. She had understood that the thread of her own mortality was to burn brightly and briefly, and resolved to achieve all that she could within that vanishing window. If the battlefield did not claim her, Verschlengorge's very nature would. Many soldiers died younger still.

Yet in in the moment of her extremity, a second devouring monster had arrived. An impossible glorious monster that would gift her the adulthood she never thought she'd have, and set her against enemies she could never even have imagined.

Those monsters defined the epochs of Letrizia's life. And, with each emergence they offered an identical challenge: the cessation of her most urgent problems, if she could remake herself to survive. There was no doubt hers was a blessed life, for how many were offered even one such opportunity, let alone two so perfectly matched?

But with the natural course of her life having already been so truncated, it ought hardly be any surprise that she would end up the most unnatural of their litter. She understood why the radical extent of her transformation somewhat displeased the others, with Hunger himself feeling something akin to the guilt of responsibility, but such sentiments were simply misguided.

"Stop trembling," she told the Republic assemblage. "It was an errant thought, not anything you did."

It amused her that in this world where no one had to fear death or torture, the mere prospect of social disapproval still evoked such desperation in these men. Augmented or not they were Republic scum in the end. All she'd done was shake her head!

"Not only that," Hunger's echo rumbled beside her. "They thought you'd detected the assassination attempt."

"Oh?" she raised an interested eyebrow. That she'd failed to ascertain any such threat was nearly unprecedented in recent months, and possibly entertaining.

"A prank disguised as one, yes." He continued, nodding at the wall. "Set up by their kids. It would have been quite dramatic."

"And you just had to quell it," she pouted. "That's no fun. Why can't you stop being so overprotective? You're not my real overlord anyway!"

He shrugged. "I did as I desired. Just as you have been."

Letrizia's eyes widened. "Touche. I didn't know you guys had that much personality in you."

The echo glanced irritably at her. "You'd prefer it this way, and we aim to please. Or displease, in this eventuality."

"Hmph," Letrizia tossed her hair. "It worked well enough, so I guess you're forgiven. Not that you care, but I do take some pride in stopping these things myself!"

"Our most effusive apologies, Grand Duchess!" The officer bowed deeply, falling to his knees. "A youthful indiscretion, buoyed by the generous surfeit of bodily security that our most gracious sovereign has provided, led to this unconscionable-"

Bored now.

Letrizia departed this bodily shell, leaving a phantasm of spun aether to inhabit that flesh. To sophonts of the officer's level, the difference was indistinguishable. Diplomacy was only a temporary diversion from her studies, meaningless as it ultimately was. Even if she fucked up - a possibility that her desire for excellence would not permit - they could hardly rebel against King Hunger. It was quite literally more futile than fighting the tide, much like her current attempt to achieve transfinite Rank...

At least Verschlengorge could do something to that enemy. Maybe she would spend some time on the Infinite Soup Husk instead.

"Hey."

Aobaru was as old-fashioned as always, standing with his prime - and only - body in the entrance of her atelier. Letrizia leapt slightly through time such that she had always been present to greet him.

She had never been one to go crazy for boys, especially fellow redheads, but the lord of Vigorflame was objectively the most charming and capable peer companion she was ever likely to get. And that was an impressive feat given the dizzying array of fellow Augmented that had sprung up in the realm following Hunger's accession, many of them greedily incorporating as many systems of physical and magical interface as sanity - and the law - would allow. That Aobaru had limited himself to a single incarnation in exchange for vastly greater concentration of power was almost... cute. Especially as it made actually ruling the Voyaging Realm so impractical, he was forced to rely on subordinates for help!

"Hey, you." A wraith-projection of her true self ghosted forward to bump shoulders with him. "Here for a round of Syndics, or just to admire my resplendent self?"

"I might be up for another round," he said cheerfully, "if you weren't such a sore loser."

"That's part of my charm," Letrizia huffed. "Like, do you even watch anime?"

In truth, Aobaru had prevailed seven rounds out of ten in their long (long, long...) history of such contests. The no-holds-barred game of absolute civilizational domination was played with volunteer populaces, resembling nothing so much as total unrestricted warfare among parties of mutually unknown ability, values and number. Many participants incarnated themselves into fully-biological mortal manifolds, temporarily surrendering the majority of their memories to play with greater immersion. Sometimes Letrizia wondered if their own existence was but another layer in some similar game, infinitely iterated... when one had no fears of significance, what was more thrilling than the prospect of real stakes?

The underlying aegis of Hunger's Law ensured that nothing truly horrible could come about to the sprits of his subjects - this was but the furthermost exploitation of that feature. Official policy had not deigned to sanction or encourage the immensely popular pastime, save to note ominously that Princess-Regent Gisena had already 'solved' it.

"So," Letrizia continued, "How goes the Voyaging Realm these days? It's been a few picoseconds since I last checked."

"Sorry to bore you so much," Aobaru deadpanned. "That's what, centuries in your subjective experience? Sounds incredibly unappetizing. I'll stick with impossibly fast reflexes, thanks."

"Millennia now," she corrected, incarnating as a version of herself whose pale blue locks fell to butt-level. Aobaru raised an eyebrow, and she scoffed. "I'd have thought you of all people would see the benefits of dilated time, given how fast your experimental kingdoms are now running!"

"I can't see anything," Aobaru smiled wryly. "I'm as blind and dumb as any member of humanity 1.0. Power without wisdom, like a child with a flamethrower."

"More like an atom bomb," she replied pertly. "But at least you yourself earned some noticeable fraction of that power. Who among us can say the same? That's why, despite all your issues, you might be the most suited among us to hold actual responsibility, Shogun of the Voyaging Realm!"

"Liar." His expression was flat. "The most suited would obviously be Miss Gisena Allria."

"She doesn't count, she's a Remittance."

Aobaru chuckled. "Talk about politically incorrect..."

"I am neither political, nor ever incorrect," Letrizia asserted happily. "You'd understand if you ever pushed your mind just a little bit further."

"The Shogun went down that path, once," Aobaru confided. "We decided to try something new. Hunger has done fine while mostly retaining his essential humanity."

"Something new, huh..." Letrizia looked outward at an angle Aobaru couldn't perceive; out, and further out to some unthinkable shore, some faraway audience impossible to germinate within the curve of their present lives. "You know, Aobaru, for once you might be right. Let's try something new! After all..."

She waved brightly, once, and words in bright lettering appeared behind her: the dread phrasing that had concluded so many works of twenty-first-century Terran narrative -

"Our adventure's only beginning!"

---

"It isn't," said the Maiden, and the world became daylight.

Some interesting discussion of the blood clones. Also if I didn't know that there's no way Orm would have suggested it I'd think the tactic was just leave everything to Gisena.

Rihaku said:
Always

An infinity before, she had been Ceathlynn. Now, she was the Maiden in full: wax and wick both melted away, leaving only the flame imperishable. Endless eons of preparation had culminated in this single moment.

With an exercise of her Grace, the Epistolary Realm unfurled around her: falling to pieces like the petals of a lotus, become so much fuel and dross before the infinite emanation of wonder that was her heart. It was not in her nature to hesitate, only to prevail.

From the realm of unsparing Daylight she strode forth: blazing sun of halcyon white before which even the starry void itself could but retreat into noon-bleached impotence. The universe was recast instantly, become mere refracted luminance, moon to the sun of her yet-veiled visage.

And yet, some fraction of this realm did not leap implicitly into her service, but interdicted her: a territory chained by its bedrock axioms to a lord that presumed himself above even the Foremost. Upon his throne of midnight, the Imprisoner reigned still, embryonic spark that threatened ignition into the Forebear of Dynasties once more. How strange it seemed, to one of her matchless span, finally to face the enemy who she'd labored against for so long. A veritable eternity had been spent in the mustering; millenia beyond number passing with eyeblink quickness, and yet it had seemed at times that she would merely be preparing for ever.

In her heart of hearts, she was tired, and yet could not help but surge with vigor at the contest come at last. Like first break of dawn after a wholly-sleepless night, a second wind came over her: senses bleary but radically sharper, every nerve tuned to crackling readiness.

Behind her veil, she frowned minutely. Her power could not reach directly into the Human Sphere. It was not an unexpected outcome, yet she had hoped that the Praehihr would avoid this path, if only to expedite matters for them both.

In any direct contest, it was unquestionable that her Grace would evade the grasp of his Law - yet such was his dominion over Space that, within his proscribed territory, the very concept of evasion lost coherence. An effect she could counter by sheer weight of findross, but only if she entered the territory in question.

It was, of course, impossible to breach such a realm by conventional means, or even to conceive of its relative location. To her, such minute forbiddings were little better than tinsel, yet it would still be an exertion of her stamina - unthinkably vast, but finite - to cut through, and what was to stop him from immediately raising another?

Only her direct attentions.

She had anticipated this. It was one scenario of countless she'd simulated, and yet every victory along this path carried some measure of risk. The Praehihr had embraced imprisonment entirely; sacrificing all influence outside his fortress to become nigh unassailable from without. The path of Grace alone would not suffice. There would be no triumph by indirect means here, no usurper consigned to irretrievable oblivion by sheer cleverness alone. He would be undone from within his sanctum, or not at all.

So be it. She had hoped for a brisk execution, but would not shirk a proper war. It would only delay the hour of her victory in the end.

A moment, and she reached the borders of his sanctum.

The Human Sphere stood arrayed before her, war-machines of her errant governess bristling across the entire circumference of its bound, unseemly science perfected and turned towards the brazen annihilation of all intruders. Sorceress Allria had plumbed great depths of mortal prowess to bring forth the Human Sphere's outer rind: a septillion dreadnaught-Implements incubated across the Voyaging and Industrial Realms, fueled not by Curseweft but indestructible nuclei of Foremost Art. Each more than a match for a thousand of the incomplete Ereadhihr left to this domain, yet worse than hapless against a proper Maker.

With a single step she bypassed the shield-moat of their combined Pressure, and prepared to banish the Human Sphere in its entirety. Its departure would see the swift removal of the Cursebearer whose Geas anchored him therein.

She spoke two words.

Light came forth, scouring brilliance that left no remainder, as surely as the naked sun blanketed the eye: cataclysm that unopposed would see the Sphere reduced to naught; and yet the Praehihr did not act.

Instead she witnessed her destroying light pooling harmlessly in the palm of a red-haired child, the Chosen of the Voyaging Realm who with laughable hubris presumed to defy her. Empowered by the fury of his patron he was not inconceivably below her, and certainly impervious to her powers of light and heat; but that did not render him a serious obstacle to her like. She did not hesitate for a moment.
With a gesture she removed her veil.

She was the Maiden: her Grace was absolute, save that it was rivaled by her Beauty.

It was not in her nature to hold back, or contain her powers out of some misguided sense of responsibility. Her Grace was a force mastered utterly, and would not impinge upon even the indirect volition of a being unless so willed. But her Beauty by its nature was impossible to contain. It could only be concealed, and she despised the idea of unintentionally holding another in thrall. Nonetheless hypocrisy could be no impediment to victory.

Even her barest moue of distress was so shatteringly exquisite that Chen Aobaru fell to her feet awestruck, and three-quarters of her enemy's Implements rose immediately in fervent and unthinking rebellion. Helplessly they discarded the crimson panoplies of their Overlord to take up her sunbeam-and-lace banner, their master's influence waning as night retreated before the dawn.

She was the Maiden, her beauty preeminent and impossible, unreachable and unutterable; guiding Archetype towards which every Sorceress evolved, yet none could ever attain. It was so tiresome a weapon to utilize, yet she could not disdain a sword of this sharpness in the contest to come. The stars and Realms of this cosmos genuflected to her in hapless submission, trembling as they pledged to her service, aching as the very laws of reality followed to do the same.

At this provocation, finally, the Overlord appeared.

The merest glance at her close presence and he struck out his own eyes; unhealing wounds bleeding crimson to match the halo of light at his back. Gone his sight and his very capacity to appreciate beauty; ruthlessness worthy of her foe.

In his hands was the Forebear's blade, his armor pitted steel of similarly dull make. Upon his shoulders was the three-headed visage of his former Armament Verschlengorge, taxidermied now in perfect lunging voracity. In their half-opened maws was held a cloak of the night sky, velveteen dark teeming with stars and nebulae - as if the contents of the cosmos had, fleeing her light, now taken asylum within. She frowned, tears of blood falling from her eye. Even an Emperor ought show some restraint.

Without a word of preamble, he struck.

Fell the Forebear's blade as if gravity itself were the hilt; shear of its passage a scream across the world, canvas of reality shredding tissue-like in its wake. This was destruction embodied in an uncaring slab: not even a bludgeon but raw unmaking force, total ruin before which her defenses of light and grace would crumble as thistle beneath a mountain falling.

But Lord Hunger was newly blind, and his accuracy a hair from faultless. With inherent perfection she parried his blow, accepting the implosion of her arm into splintering bone to lash out with a lance of sunlight at his heart. Her equal in skill, he leaned at the last moment to turn her strike into a graze. The grey steel of his armor shimmered, melting before that heat; the skin beneath boiled.

And yet. While she had merely singed him, her arm was already reforming; his burn healed not at all.

Interesting. Perhaps the outcome would have differed if he'd struck her directly, but she had exerted her arm to destruction precisely in order to redirect, rather than match, the power of his blow. Nonetheless the gap in pure strength would have to be accounted for.

Already the astral plane was an eviscerated ruin, and the meta-texture of the realms above and beneath slowly disintegrating. All this was the mere inclement shock of Lord Hunger's first strike. As if breathing raggedly after tremendous exertion, the cosmos shuddered pitifully beneath the grip of his displeasure: only his own subjects, his personal Sphere, were spared that apocalyptic fury.

Tyrant.

The Maiden narrowed her eyes, resolve hardening in the face of such limitless strength. This man was the embodiment of all she stood against, the accession of a singular will above all others, the asphyxiation of greatness - destiny - volition - under the lowered boom of law. He would make all of the world a prison, and see nothing wrong in the doing, so long as he remained master of the cage.

Did it matter that his intentions might be just?

What mattered justice, to a people who had no ability to choose injustice?

She would see his end, one way or another. Victory was a certainty; her survival had never been.

Thus always to tyrants.

For a moment their wills met, each contesting the other's raw command of reality. Here too she was shocked at the depth of his power, nearly matching her own infinitely-cultivated reserves. The multiverse quaked. Stars and galaxies shivered, filaments of the real straining like bow-strings under tension. Entire subrealms snapped, ruptured and fell into disarray, infinite chains of being unraveling, whole hierarchies of cardinality schisming or outright invalidated by the paradox of their strife.

She grasped the shape of their respective dominions. Hers was the sharper and greater, his broader in scope. This was beyond the scope of her calculations; there was an aberrant factor she had missed.

In time she would prevail regardless, but it would be long seconds before his defenses were pierced fully. At present, with each of their domains nullifying the other's, the battle would long be decided by other means.

Even blind he was not unaffected by her beauty, for it was allure irresistible; perfected loveliness of movement and vibration, of voice and scent, that preyed upon the secondary senses unmercifully. The Forebear of Dynasties might be impervious to such temptation, but Lord Hunger was not the Forebear reborn. Not wholly.

Not yet.

As he wound up the return-stroke, Hunger spoke. "I see. I am what you fear you'd become. Fear not. My Rank is not as cruel a yoke as your form. And my wisdom, exceeds yours greatly."

Impertinence. Her throat heaved as if cut, his words themselves opening a wound upon her neck. Her essence spilled out at unnatural pace, but mustering herself she quelled the injury. Keeping it closed was a continuous strain. Modest, compared to the extremes that would be required if she sustained a blow from the blade proper.

Yielding an inch in their contest over reality, she redirected the output to strategically sever the chord of communication between them, removing rhetoric as a vector of attack while retaining her ability to comprehend her foe.

This was the gulf between them: Lord Hunger had to mutilate his own eyes merely to hold off her memetic valence, while she could simply filter his. But with each such expression of material advantage, each stream of findross reified from potential to form, the magnitude of that vantage diminished.

Hunger's second cut turned out to be a feint; closing the distance he shifted his grip to deliver a bone-crushing strike with the hilt at her temple. Pulverization of the essence and soul - space crinkled like shattering glass as she half-ducked beneath that assault, feeling eye and orbital crack from its mere passing weight.

Her hands were not idle, manifesting a blade of crystal findross to slice through his knee. The cloak of sky fouled her stroke, wrapping tenaciously around her wrist as that selfsame knee snapped up to catch her in the face.

She twisted off her own arm rather than let the blow land, hollow stump trailing blood as she fell to the middle distance and began to heal again. Her mind raced. How was Hunger able to withstand the power of her supreme Grace with only his Rank and magics alone? All else proceeded as she had anticipated, save this miscalculation that might be her undoing. But the perfection of the Maiden, extended to genius as well.

The answer lay in Chen Aobaru, imbued with a fraction of his might.

She was well familiar with the legend of the Foremost Shogun. Chief among their purported abilities was the empowerment of their subjects en masse, freely and without precondition.

Somewhere in this realm was an Army of the Shogun whose sole purpose was re-channeling their distributed power directly into Hunger's Rank. The encirclement of Implements was merely a distraction from that, as well as Aobaru's presence itself. An inefficient means of opposing her dominion, but likely the only viable method they had.

Where would such an army be located? She cast her mind out, all-revealing Daylight piercing even the murkiest shroud of Nullity - ah. The Voyaging Realm. A kingdom called Nilfel, part of the Arcanist's domain.

Her opponent pursued relentlessly, opening with a cross-cleave that also obliterated the Astral entirely, causing the uppermost textures to pancake down and shake the universe to its fundaments. Consequently the timing of her evasions was imperfect; her left shoulder was caught and reduced to a ragged mess, bleeding so profoundly even she couldn't afford to staunch it.

But this too was within her calculations. She could not directly witness the future of a Cursebearer, but her insight in matters of war was more than sufficient. Even as her left side collapsed into a grisly ruin, the knife-hand of her right plunged into Lord Hunger's chest, through the opening melted by her previous strike and directly into his heart. With her left arm useless, her leg shifted upwards, vertically flush against their bodies to point a shapely foot in the direction of the Voyaging Realm. From it leapt a spear of uncontrolled findross: simple bolt of self-propagating annihilation, which none of his allies would have the power to deflect.

Mere proximity to Lord Hunger was nearly lethal; at this range, the blade-light of his crimson halo sliced countless wounds into her face and limbs, her veil of lace repealed by one of blood. Rivulets of red traced like rain from her pale flesh as Chen Aobaru hurled himself before the Voyaging Realm; bolt and hero both disappeared in a flash of flame.

Clever. Her features briefly obscured, and the Chosen of the Voyaging Realm had mustered the will to defy her indirectly, if only to fulfill his given purpose of defending his home. Now her initiative was lost.

Despite his own injury Hunger spared not even a moment; his forehead crashed down with thunderous severity to impact against hers, even as the Armament-heads on his shoulder pauldrons released the cloak to swivel and bite down on her arms. Skull ringing, she tossed her hair with a savage burst of findross; impossibly fair the golden halo sliced through Hunger's face, claiming half his jaw and nose as she twisted aside.

With her remaining hand she tenderly pet the nearest Armament-head; all three went slack in bewildered rhapsody, and she leap free. Her bleeding left side she gave up for lost - a moment's will and it slid off her frame, a single clean cut seared closed by daylight. Fresh waves of findross now repulsed his lingering influence, wounds sealing flawlessly as her blood slowly began to replenish.

I have him.

Victory in twelve exchanges at the current pace. She dared not underestimate this foe; the depths of his will were bottomless, but neither his body nor essence could sustain combat at this level for long. The Praxis was his advantage, but its cost was grievous. Each blow from him was an uttermost exertion, while she had only begun to fight. The wounds she sustained would recover, if slowly, while his own injuries remained static at best. Now to close the circle against any desperate maneuvering from his quarter.

With the pace of his offense she was best suited to evasion and counterattack; the angle of his body now shielded the Voyaging Realm from future attempts. Even so it was only a matter of time. If she did not wear him down in direct battle, or land an errant strike on the Voyaging Realm, then eventually she would prevail in their contest of dominion.

And, if all else failed… she had her final recourse still. She prayed it would not come to that.

Win. That's all that matters.

—-

Hunger is weakening and both sides know it. Whosoever shows their trump card first, always loses - but surely the Maiden's Unveiling counts as one of her own?

Time to do his uttermost, as always. What strategem has Hunger prepared to invoke in his direst hour?

[ ] Close The Fist - Aobaru's resilience is as inexhaustible as flame; so long as one iota of heat burns across the multiverse he will spring forth uninjured anew. To fuse with Hunger would be to surrender that advantage in the pursuit of sheer power, but perhaps the apex of this conflict demands nothing less than absolute strength. Hero and Tyrant in all-ruling unison; gleam of the Blade like entombing fire.

*Aobaru is about a quarter as powerful as Hunger himself, so this is the strongest possible merge they can spontaneously manage. Expect something on the order of x40 All Stats and +.3 general ISH.
*+++++Raw Potency, but also +Simping
*Attempt to end the Maiden before she can deploy her final trump card, whatsoever it may be.

[ ] The Cavalry - They risk their lives and very existences to do so, but his lieutenants combined may be able to distract, disorient, diminish or delay the Maiden enough for Hunger to wind up an exsanguinating blow. Risks Aeira, Letrizia, Adorie, Aobaru and Novakhron.

*Dismiss half the Channeler Legions to instead empower each lieutenant's personal division instead, then have the entire lot outflank and assault the Maiden directly. If this fails, such grossly diminished Rank means the Maiden's Supreme Grace will exert effectively total control over reality in nanoseconds rather than minutes. Brief enough that she may theoretically be able to realistically stall for a victory regardless of what Hunger otherwise achieves. Also, the brigades involved may well die in this terrible charge against the princess of light.
*The potential loss of his companions hardens Hunger's resolve. +++Willpower, ++Lethality.
*Even more aggressive than Close the Fist, literally just try to distract her so Hunger can Cut Through. Good risk-reward given Blood Halo's Arete bonus; the kids' chance of success is unknown, but they're very unlikely to actually die.

[ ] Vendetta - Gisena has not been idle, but is the realization of her fury worth the cost?
*Gisena will Close the Fist with Adorie and a resurrected Augustine, then permanently merge with the Arcanist.
*This will be of great help against the Maiden, and is likely the overall most reliable means of improving Hunger's odds in the long run; not reliant on an all-in attack that can fail in the face of her strongest contingencies.
*+++Versatility, ++Raw Power and the contest of dominions now shifts to Hunger's side.
*———————Augustine, —Adorie. She always knew that Purple Bitch had it out for her!
*This is rather Tyrannical to Augustine, forcibly reviving and fusing her, even if somewhat deserved!

A bunch of references to Hunger as the imprisoner. A reference to findross allowing infinite potential. A description of the Maiden's foot as "shapely".

So checking through Rihaku's posts and cross referencing Orm's, the only commonality seems to be the blood clones and possibly Hunger's Imprisoner powers. It's possible the reference is more oblique and I'm just not picking it up or that the answer is buried somewhere in all the CYOA posts. But hopefully this narrows things down.

Aabcehmu · Jun 12, 2023

🤔 Would it be possible for Hunger to imprison himself, somehow? Or allow himself to be imprisoned by a clone, in order to empower a clone that is not burdened by his curses?

-e

Or alternatively, empower as large an army as possible (benefitting from the maximum overall strength created thereby), and then imprison them all to channel that power back into Hunger's personal abilities.

Zampano · Jun 13, 2023

Hunger is not enhanced by Findross. We could make a +30% attack speed Grace.

This is how Silver of Evening can still matter!

A Simple Transaction I

One and Many

The Laughing One

The Laughing One

Imperfectly Aligned

One and Many

Bhaal

Bhaal

Bhaal

Bhaal

Bhaal

Confusion as a Natural State of Being

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