- Location
- Europe
I'm not actually sure what you're trying to argue.
We both seem to agree that assuming the Accursed is Hunger's enemy is unproductive.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
We both seem to agree that assuming the Accursed is Hunger's enemy is unproductive.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
I'm saying if it's possible the Accursed is Hunger's enemy then Accursed favour is meaningless and it's better to keep fighting with Vengeance than give up with Freedom.
If Accursed is confident that Hunger in his current configuration as a 4bear reborn is gonna end up being an enemy, and an enemy that actually sort of matters, a little - why allow 4bear Blade as a remittance?
Why allow Progression, even?
That's the argument of that post, as far as I understand it.
- Location
- Europe
Well... that is an opinion you can have.
It doesn't seem to be their argument, not as they just phrased it.
Yeah, now I noticed. Oh well.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Yeah that's the main thrust of the post. If the Accursed is benevolent and near omnipotent why the quest? And if not why do we think he knows better than us what decision we should make?
I mean this argument is basically just aimed at Qwolfs whose entire reason for voting Freedom seems to be that the Accursed says we should and the Accursed always knows best?
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
It could be that the Accursed thought it was unlikely that Hunger would turn into an enemy when the Accursed first made the offer of Progression, and is chiming in now because Hunger is going down a path that could turn that "unlikely" into "a bit less unlikely". Like if he was willing to put up with 0.01% odds of a relevant foe returning if it meant saving his old enemy that he pitied, but now things are creeping towards a 0.5% and he decided to say something about it before things get any higher.
We don't know what the odds of the Forebear Returned turning full evil are, only that the possibility is implied to exist. Both by the Accursed's words, and by certain flavor text.
If you read the Vengeance option, there's a lot of ominous wording - "If the Forebear's standard shall be a pennant of blood, then the future will know only war." and "You see now the self-same machinations behind the evil that set you first upon the Procession of Worlds and then your doomed mortal life. Resigned to tyranny you may be, but it need not be so for the Accursed; and if you should reach heights sufficient to extirpate the Forebear's curse from him then the victorious world will be all the closer.
As you chose in the beginning, so too now do you choose, with knowledge fully realized: not a life of joyful frivolity for the Forebear of Dynasties, for that is neither his gift nor his burden. Only the forward march, into sorrow, into greatness, into the terror and dusk; for none can bear it better than him, and he brings not peace but a sword."
This is not language that is very reassuring with regards to what Hunger will become.
And, really. Does Hunger not deserve a happy ending at this point? After all the things he's been through in both of his lives? It would be unreasonable to demand he keep sacrificing his wellbeing and perpetuating violence and tyranny over and over again forever, for a small chance at a better world which, at that point, he would be wholly unsuited for living in.
We don't know what the odds of the Forebear Returned turning full evil are, only that the possibility is implied to exist. Both by the Accursed's words, and by certain flavor text.
If you read the Vengeance option, there's a lot of ominous wording - "If the Forebear's standard shall be a pennant of blood, then the future will know only war." and "You see now the self-same machinations behind the evil that set you first upon the Procession of Worlds and then your doomed mortal life. Resigned to tyranny you may be, but it need not be so for the Accursed; and if you should reach heights sufficient to extirpate the Forebear's curse from him then the victorious world will be all the closer.
As you chose in the beginning, so too now do you choose, with knowledge fully realized: not a life of joyful frivolity for the Forebear of Dynasties, for that is neither his gift nor his burden. Only the forward march, into sorrow, into greatness, into the terror and dusk; for none can bear it better than him, and he brings not peace but a sword."
This is not language that is very reassuring with regards to what Hunger will become.
And, really. Does Hunger not deserve a happy ending at this point? After all the things he's been through in both of his lives? It would be unreasonable to demand he keep sacrificing his wellbeing and perpetuating violence and tyranny over and over again forever, for a small chance at a better world which, at that point, he would be wholly unsuited for living in.
- Location
- Europe
The Accursed is near omnipotent, and doesn't seem to be particularly malevolent. He is also opposed by similarly powerful entities, and restricted by his Curses. That is, in fact, the entire reason behind the Simple Transaction.
I'm not sure why you'd want to remove his Curses if you thought he was Hunger's enemy.
I vote for Freedom because the Accursed is calling in his favor. It has nothing to do with him always knowing best.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
The Accursed changing his mind in regards to Hunger would mean he was originally incorrect in his assessment, which means he's fallable, which means we can choose the option he's not in favour of without being automatically wrong.
I don't see the wording as ominous I see it as resolved. Hunger sees the hands of the Hidden Ones at work and resolves to accept the burden of Tyranny in order to become the Forebear once more and keep going until the job is done.
What's the point in a happy ending before the story is over? For someone who will live as long as Hunger the matter of who wins the war in heaven is actually important. Hunger stopping now would be like Frodo giving up at Rivendell and leaving the ring there because the journey tuckered him out and surely someone else will come along who can deliver the ring.
As far as participation in A's cosmic efforts, Freedom still shoulders the Curses, H is still a Cursebearer. By his mere existence, he makes A's job easier. A doesn't typically picks Cursebearers with a goal of producing more HCBs; he generally just wants someone to make his burdens easier.
That isn't nothing. If Freedom does manage to survive for longer than Vanguard, that's pretty respectable value, as compared to Tyrant and Decimation going back.
That isn't nothing. If Freedom does manage to survive for longer than Vanguard, that's pretty respectable value, as compared to Tyrant and Decimation going back.
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
This is also true. Hunger has been consistently honorable and has held to his deals throughout this quest, it's a major part of his character. To betray that now, to the person who Hunger owes the most, is a pretty clear breach of Hunger's own morals. A very concerning sign.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Vengeance and Freedom both live for a very long time, but since Vengeance has progression and higher stakes fights and thus more picks it seems obvious that it picks up more mitigation and is thus presumably more useful.
If we have a shot at achieving High Cursebearer I don't see why we shouldn't take it. Hunger's life expectancy is still incredibly high and it's not like he didn't get moments of downtime during this quest and Vengeance sounds like more of what we were already doing.
I wouldn't quit my job as a favour to my boss, so I don't see why Hunger should. If he wants Hunger to stop progressing just take it away.
- Location
- Italy
I'm voting for Vengeance, but I'll point out that the Forebear Returned doesn't have to be EVIL to become the Accursed's enemy.
He could just... think he knows best.
Like, maybe he could end up believing that "hey, now that I think about it I could do the Accursed's job better than the Accursed, and obviously even if I trust him I trust myself more".
As Rihaku said, not everyone that opposes the Accursed does so because they oppose his goals.
Some oppose giving anyone that much power. Some might think THEY are the most suited.
If, like we believe, a Cursebearer bears a growing fraction of the curse as they become stronger, then shouldering a bigger share for a shorter time might be worth more than a smaller share for longer.
Another thing that seems to have been lost in some of these talks in favour of Freedom:
The Accursed explicitly prefers Freedom (in my opinion because of compassion and because... well, he is the End of Stories, and so he'd like to see Hunger get a happy ending, even at the cost of making his job very slightly more difficult. That's hardly that weird, considering Hunger DID sometime took choices that were not technically optimal because of his values).
The Accursed does NOT explicitly HATE the Vengeance option though. After all, it STILL gives Accursed Favour.
Presumably he is very slightly worried (or at least considers it possible) that the Forebear Returned might one day rise against him... but if he thought it certain, he'd likely not offer favour for that option... unless, maybe, he thought the benefits from more curse mitigation AND what another HC might do for him BEFORE such a betrayal would STILL outweigh the cost of putting down the betrayer eventually... but I wouldn't worry too much about that.
I'd keep it to a more simple "what do we want for Hunger. What do we want for the Story"
- Location
- Europe
You don't have to worry about it at all. Rihaku has explicitly said that the expected outcome of Vengeance benefits the Victorious World more than Freedom. That is an undeniable positive for Vengeance.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
"The price of my hand?" She replied, returning his smile with her own. "A simple transaction. Take up a portion of my values, and proliferate them by your reign. Worry not. What I intend to request, even you will find reasonable."
Is what the Maiden says here literal? i.e Do we incorporate some part of the Maiden and her values into Hunger's being. Like +Maiden Corruption or something?
If not how does Hunger prevent the Doom of the Tyrant acting up in the Freedom ending? Also why can he even consider a compromise with the Maiden in the first place when the description of the curse says diplomacy is a laughable dream?
Is what the Maiden says here literal? i.e Do we incorporate some part of the Maiden and her values into Hunger's being. Like +Maiden Corruption or something?
If not how does Hunger prevent the Doom of the Tyrant acting up in the Freedom ending? Also why can he even consider a compromise with the Maiden in the first place when the description of the curse says diplomacy is a laughable dream?
That's a fair point. I suppose that would swing on whether his loyalty is of the personal, man-to-man kind, or the professional, liege-to-levy kind. There's room to argue either way; the choice made back with the Ring is inconclusive here and their interaction during the economic collapse of Nilfel wasn't very long. It wouldn't be much affected by ideology either, as Hunger doesn't let things like that bother him.
She's better at this than us. A subjective eternity of reading blurbs will do that to you.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
The Maiden is not telling Hunger what to do, she is making an offer. The Tyrant's Doom does not prevent those suffering from it from doing things of their own accord. Nor does it prevent deals if the Tyrant in question finds said deals to be personally acceptable. Presumably, in this option Hunger will accept some amount of Maiden-ideas into his personal code of conduct, which is not affected by the Doom because it comes from Hunger, not others.
Remember, Hunger was capable of working for the Elixir Sovereignty for money, and paid the toll to enter Nilfel. A deal can get past the Tyrant's Doom if Hunger considers the deal fair and worthwhile.
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
Sorry for the late reply, but I finally finished catching up!
##1379 Words arguepost that the best revenge is living well, no actually.
I think it's a good idea because the language of this last update (well, especially) is very specific. Not just "giving up" but "relinquishes his command over" the Lathe of Heaven. The Lathe of Heaven which references most often what we call Progresion but also the Accursed himself.
This command that Hunger has over the Accursed is the Doom of the Tyrant.
The Doom of the Tyrant is nothing more than the way the Forebear is, as shown by Uttermost, End. As above, so below. It is my belief that the Doom of the Tyrant can be removed at, and from, the end of the story.
I further believe that Vengeance -here and at the start of the story- is the will of the Hidden Ones. They don't want to die, obviously, but drawing aggro is the only way that the Tyrant, the Forebear, can be so manipulated. If he is monomaniacally focused on Vengeance, that same personality will continue to function as a catalyst to check the Accursed. Which is why they were so focused on the specks of Hero and Tyrant at the beginning of the story, why Fate seemed to be able to use his friends as ablative armor despite the lesser Tyrant's seeming mastery.
That's my answer to why the departure of the Apocryphal Curse is not actually a resounding condemnation of Freedom. It wasn't a tangent, prone as I am to such tings. That which is apocryphal is hidden, all credit to wikipedia. The Curse is not departing because they already have what they want from Hunger (...though maybe also that, depending on how much their love for stories is fundamental to their being, relative to their grudges? That's not the part I care about though). It's leaving because what it wants from Hunger (using him as a tool of Vengeance against the Accursed) will no longer be possible. I think.
From a mechanical perspective, it is profoundly arrogant of me to say that Hunger, with his merely infinite power, can technically become a High Cursebearer right now. And without @Wolfy here to call me out on it, let me be even more clear; I am in fact saying that Freedom will accomplish the goal of Vengeance (well, the most ubercosmically relevant one), committing one of the highest sins of quest-related arguing.
But the time for mechanical power is gone, at the end of the story. It's about the story itself, the narrative- I haven't brought up the Apocryphal Curse yet (well, actually I have, Apocryphal=Hidden), but it knows the lesson I'm trying to learn and put into words here - that no amount of biggatons on the part of a mere character can match the power of the person writing the story. Or reading, even.
That's one of the reasons the Accursed hasn't beaten up Rihaku yet, but I have faith in him.
Broadly, the word choice in this story update is... congruent with my interpretation. I listed the bits that seemed most important, but I feel like it will dilute my argument to bring up every shadow I'm jumping at- so don't read the spoilered stuff if you actually want me to convince you! Because I'm too weak to restrain myself here.
We have been inured to ominous blurbs of varying vagueness. Forebear picks are always spooky and it's fucking awesome.
Though I won't say the flavor text has ever been irrelevant, we have been/would have been fine if we treated it as such. Don't worry so much about the words, just bask in the vibes and don't be paranoid when Hunger is strong and stalwart.
The vibes of Vengeance are the same as ever, but complacency and cool prose can mask how it almost says many things.
It almost says that HCB Hunger would avenge himself against the Hidden Ones. It does say that he will "realize his vengeance against the HIdden Ones." Obviously I am intended to interpret this as "cause" or "fulfill," which is the second definition google gives, and not "understand fully," which is the first.
You would be correct to say that this is both awkwardly phrased and psychotically paranoid! However, the Hidden Ones are in fact out to get us.
I mentioned it in a previous post, but I belive that the Vengeance blurb is written from the POV of the hidden ones.
From my paranoid POV, I am clearly meant to read this as Hunger crystallizing his resolve against the same type of fate/higher power bullshit that has kidnapped and tormented and killed his wife twice now. That 's not merely almost true, but it is incomplete. It's the same machinations explicitly, in bullshit fairy language and not sloppy human language.
What you see now is a manipulation, the most Mondo of Baits. (Rihaku wrote as if) The Hidden Ones are using the text to almost say things.
They almost say that Hunger will remove the Doom when strong enough. I would hope as much, of course, but Acts relevant to the Accursed are not necessarily to his benefit, as his name suggests. I don't want to overstate my opinion on this one - I believe that this fits the pattern I mentioned, and the Hidden Ones' plan, but such a thing could hardly be set in stone no matter their command over destiny.
Another example - debt of the sword. Presumably synonymous with vengeance. Who left the Forebear's sword lying in that tomb in such a forgiving ontology?
And I'm less sure of this next one, since "Patron" has frequently been used for the Accursed. But the husk of a prisoner who has lost all of his friends and his memories of them, waiting to die? In the Procession of Worlds, the Foremost said something like... such meager atrocities could no longer move him. The lowest point would have been at the nadir of the descent, surely.
Most importantly, it almost said that we can help hasten the Accursed's victory. Forgive me if there is Discord/Patreon/other RIhakuverse evidence explicitly saying that the VIctorious World is his. I have not seen such. And I strongly dislike the combination of this thought with the reticence of the blurb to be 100% explicit about how HCB Hunger's interaction with the Accursed.
We have been inured to ominous blurbs of varying vagueness. Forebear picks are always spooky and it's fucking awesome.
Though I won't say the flavor text has ever been irrelevant, we have been/would have been fine if we treated it as such. Don't worry so much about the words, just bask in the vibes and don't be paranoid when Hunger is strong and stalwart.
The vibes of Vengeance are the same as ever, but complacency and cool prose can mask how it almost says many things.
It almost says that HCB Hunger would avenge himself against the Hidden Ones. It does say that he will "realize his vengeance against the HIdden Ones." Obviously I am intended to interpret this as "cause" or "fulfill," which is the second definition google gives, and not "understand fully," which is the first.
You would be correct to say that this is both awkwardly phrased and psychotically paranoid! However, the Hidden Ones are in fact out to get us.
I mentioned it in a previous post, but I belive that the Vengeance blurb is written from the POV of the hidden ones.
From my paranoid POV, I am clearly meant to read this as Hunger crystallizing his resolve against the same type of fate/higher power bullshit that has kidnapped and tormented and killed his wife twice now. That 's not merely almost true, but it is incomplete. It's the same machinations explicitly, in bullshit fairy language and not sloppy human language.
What you see now is a manipulation, the most Mondo of Baits. (Rihaku wrote as if) The Hidden Ones are using the text to almost say things.
They almost say that Hunger will remove the Doom when strong enough. I would hope as much, of course, but Acts relevant to the Accursed are not necessarily to his benefit, as his name suggests. I don't want to overstate my opinion on this one - I believe that this fits the pattern I mentioned, and the Hidden Ones' plan, but such a thing could hardly be set in stone no matter their command over destiny.
Another example - debt of the sword. Presumably synonymous with vengeance. Who left the Forebear's sword lying in that tomb in such a forgiving ontology?
And I'm less sure of this next one, since "Patron" has frequently been used for the Accursed. But the husk of a prisoner who has lost all of his friends and his memories of them, waiting to die? In the Procession of Worlds, the Foremost said something like... such meager atrocities could no longer move him. The lowest point would have been at the nadir of the descent, surely.
Most importantly, it almost said that we can help hasten the Accursed's victory. Forgive me if there is Discord/Patreon/other RIhakuverse evidence explicitly saying that the VIctorious World is his. I have not seen such. And I strongly dislike the combination of this thought with the reticence of the blurb to be 100% explicit about how HCB Hunger's interaction with the Accursed.
Tremble (in ecstasy), you who (correctly) thought yourselves invincible. (Your Puppet) The Forebear is returned, with both his blade (which, transitively, is yours) and your ruin (The Ruin that you own as he did).
Distinctly not written by the same voice as the other, this blurb will not shut up about Tyranny. This is interesting because he's infested with curses, what's so special about this one, which isn't even the Crowning Curse? Justifiable outside of my paranoia based on the theme of the recent conflicts, but the focus on that theme was also a choice.
Since it's not written in doublespeak, it's less juicy to analyze except for the "relinquish his command" bit I already discussed. I would like to take "consigned to ruin" seriously, but past that is the point where my nitpicking starts to fall to the regular level of mudslinging towards the option I'm not voting for. Instead of the taboo-breaking I feel justified in engaging in because the last option is different.
Instead I'll focus on the greatest a serious weakness of my argument here!
+10 Accursed Favor ain't shit. That's the wrongest thing I've ever said, of course, but on a scale of "this guy has been self-destructive for eternities and is finally healing" to "removing a curse," it seems closer to the first than the second. Possible counterarguments are that Accursed Favor scales on lolmath like many things here, that +10 Relationship is the companion EFB threshold, psychological limitations, etc.
What I think is the biggest non-exclusive possibility is that, though I said something like "pushing a button" to remove the curse before, it's not that easy (shock). It could still be that Freedom is simply the most important step on that path. No matter the specifics, to conclude-
Since it's not written in doublespeak, it's less juicy to analyze except for the "relinquish his command" bit I already discussed. I would like to take "consigned to ruin" seriously, but past that is the point where my nitpicking starts to fall to the regular level of mudslinging towards the option I'm not voting for. Instead of the taboo-breaking I feel justified in engaging in because the last option is different.
Instead I'll focus on the greatest a serious weakness of my argument here!
+10 Accursed Favor ain't shit. That's the wrongest thing I've ever said, of course, but on a scale of "this guy has been self-destructive for eternities and is finally healing" to "removing a curse," it seems closer to the first than the second. Possible counterarguments are that Accursed Favor scales on lolmath like many things here, that +10 Relationship is the companion EFB threshold, psychological limitations, etc.
What I think is the biggest non-exclusive possibility is that, though I said something like "pushing a button" to remove the curse before, it's not that easy (shock). It could still be that Freedom is simply the most important step on that path. No matter the specifics, to conclude-
I could very well be wrong, not being a Genius(TM).
But the chance that @Rihaku is indulging in degenerate metatextual wankery (affectionate) will never be lower than 1%.
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here.
The Lathe of Heaven doesn't represent the Accursed, it's the other name for the power of Progression and if I remember correctly it was something Odyssial was trying to build back in the exalted quests.
"This command that Hunger has over the Accursed is the Doom of the Tyrant.
The Doom of the Tyrant is nothing more than the way the Forebear is, as shown by Uttermost, End. As above, so below. It is my belief that the Doom of the Tyrant can be removed at, and from, the end of the story."
I'm not sure what this means? Do you mean it in the context of Hunger's previous incarnation the Forebear cursing the Accursed with it?
You think the Hidden One's plan is to get Hunger to turn into the Forebear in order to keep the Accursed preocuppied? Why would he get distracted from the Hidden Ones when killing them is half the point of Vengeance and the other half is helping the Accursed?
The argument that somehow giving up our quest for revenge somehow achieves our revenge is ridiculous. Also are you trying to say we have a better chance to become a High Cursebearer without the power of progression?
I'm confused as to how this interpretation of the Tyrant's Doom even qualifies as a curse? It's considerably less restrictive than several real world personality quirks, let alone what you'd expect from metaphysically compelled Tyranny. Maybe everyone we've ever talked to has just been so amazing it hasn't mattered but we seem to have managed diplomacy several times despite it being described as nearly impossible.
Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
[ ] Promise - Hold true, O Lord of Hunger. You have an Oath to keep. An Oath to those that died to the Tyrant, to bring them back, but you are yet not strong enough to keep them safe, and still those that orchestrated their fall have yet to experience the same fate; until then, you may not lay down your Sword...
And Yet...
Could you allow yourself to become the same evil that set you first upon the Procession of Worlds?
Would you resign to Tyranny and become the Tyrant of Tyrants in Truth?
Consign yourself to ruin in every word and every deed?
It was not his sword by which you chose to be named, but the Ring
For once you may not simply Cut Through, lest you Cut Yourself. The Maiden offer you shall take, but it will not be A Simple Transaction, but an oath sworn.
You shall take up a portion of her values; in return, she shall not return your Wife to imbue herself into and use to enforce the compact but instead imbue herself in Gisena.
*Break the cycle of your Forebearer and stay True to the path of Vengeance without faltering or losing yourself
*Mental Corruption from the Maiden to Gisena would result in her becoming more like your Wife anyway
*Gisena would be no mere Renaissance Woman, but a Revolutionary Woman
*Swear an Oath to Gisena as she grants you a Ring
*Fulfil your Promise
Excerpt from the Oath sworn
"I, Hunger, swear to you, Gisena,
to uphold from this day forward
the virtues you hold dear
through trials and tribulations
through afflictions and conditions
from this day forward
until death do us part
May We Live In Interesting Times"
And Yet...
Could you allow yourself to become the same evil that set you first upon the Procession of Worlds?
Would you resign to Tyranny and become the Tyrant of Tyrants in Truth?
Consign yourself to ruin in every word and every deed?
It was not his sword by which you chose to be named, but the Ring
For once you may not simply Cut Through, lest you Cut Yourself. The Maiden offer you shall take, but it will not be A Simple Transaction, but an oath sworn.
You shall take up a portion of her values; in return, she shall not return your Wife to imbue herself into and use to enforce the compact but instead imbue herself in Gisena.
*Break the cycle of your Forebearer and stay True to the path of Vengeance without faltering or losing yourself
*Mental Corruption from the Maiden to Gisena would result in her becoming more like your Wife anyway
*Gisena would be no mere Renaissance Woman, but a Revolutionary Woman
*Swear an Oath to Gisena as she grants you a Ring
*Fulfil your Promise
Excerpt from the Oath sworn
"I, Hunger, swear to you, Gisena,
to uphold from this day forward
the virtues you hold dear
through trials and tribulations
through afflictions and conditions
from this day forward
until death do us part
May We Live In Interesting Times"
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Some more musings on Freedom.
The Accursed seeks to construct a kinder world. That's his ideal, and the ideal the entire Cursebearer system is built with the intention of pursuing.
Is it right to betray your ideal in the process of trying to achieve it? The Accursed wants Hunger to pick Freedom, because the world he's trying to build is one that has neither the need for or the possibility of Vengeance Hunger. People claim that Vengeance is the path that contributes the most towards the Victorious World... But is it not better to achieve the Victorious World without compromising the ideals of that world? A more complete victory, because we did not stoop to the same methods that define the current world.
Whenever people resort to "The ends justify the means" as a mentality, the means always become the ends. Because systems always seek to perpetuate themselves, as thus a system built that allows for those moral sacrifices will always attempt to keep itself going, all parts of itself, including the moral sacrifices. Perhaps, with the Rihakuverse being what it is, at some distant unimaginable tier of power beings become so divorced from cause and effect that the above no longer applies to them, but I am not so sure. Regardless of how high the power scale goes, the people at those distant ineffable heights are still recognizably people, who act in ways that people could be expected to act. Only the scale and breadth of actions available to them changes. I don't think the nature of people changes that much at the highest tiers - in fact, they must not do so, otherwise the Accursed's thesis wouldn't make much sense.
Perhaps Vengeance does indeed bring about the Victorious World faster, but, in the process, it does many things that run counter to the ideals the Victorious World represents. The first of which, is make Hunger suffer. Is it really so much of a better choice, if it's perpetuating the very systems that the Accursed set out to destroy in the first place? At what point does the ideal being realized in the future become more important then living out the ideal in the present?
The Accursed seeks to construct a kinder world. That's his ideal, and the ideal the entire Cursebearer system is built with the intention of pursuing.
Is it right to betray your ideal in the process of trying to achieve it? The Accursed wants Hunger to pick Freedom, because the world he's trying to build is one that has neither the need for or the possibility of Vengeance Hunger. People claim that Vengeance is the path that contributes the most towards the Victorious World... But is it not better to achieve the Victorious World without compromising the ideals of that world? A more complete victory, because we did not stoop to the same methods that define the current world.
Whenever people resort to "The ends justify the means" as a mentality, the means always become the ends. Because systems always seek to perpetuate themselves, as thus a system built that allows for those moral sacrifices will always attempt to keep itself going, all parts of itself, including the moral sacrifices. Perhaps, with the Rihakuverse being what it is, at some distant unimaginable tier of power beings become so divorced from cause and effect that the above no longer applies to them, but I am not so sure. Regardless of how high the power scale goes, the people at those distant ineffable heights are still recognizably people, who act in ways that people could be expected to act. Only the scale and breadth of actions available to them changes. I don't think the nature of people changes that much at the highest tiers - in fact, they must not do so, otherwise the Accursed's thesis wouldn't make much sense.
Perhaps Vengeance does indeed bring about the Victorious World faster, but, in the process, it does many things that run counter to the ideals the Victorious World represents. The first of which, is make Hunger suffer. Is it really so much of a better choice, if it's perpetuating the very systems that the Accursed set out to destroy in the first place? At what point does the ideal being realized in the future become more important then living out the ideal in the present?
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
The Lathe of Heaven represents the Accursed. It's also everything you said- it's a lot of things.
Gisena called it his heraldry, so it definitely represents him, and for a much more flimsy argument-
Apo-chan speaks of it as if is personified. Given that Apo-chan is also a weird personification, perhaps this shouldn't be taken too seriously, but I'm taking it seriously since I do believe the Curse is both a process and a person. Much like I'm now arguing that the Lathe of Heaven, informally called Progression is both the power the Accursed bestows and the man himself.
Or that the Forebear is the Doom of the Tyrant, thinking it in such terms. Huh. That's sort of my answer to your next question.
I am talking about what we were shown of the moment of the cursing, yeah.
May you be me, really. The Forebear, now called Hunger, is not like the Doom of the Tyrant, the Doom of the Tyrant is like him (or so I argue). If so, a change in the man could be reflected by a change in the curse.
Despite Hunger's weakness, being the one who cast the curse in the first place might narratively give him some power over it. Except maybe "first" is wrong, he's just passing on to the Accursed what the Procession had forged him into. Or the Accursed inherited it, say?
The Hidden One's plan is relatively unambitious. They already won, they just have to keep it that way. Hunger already is the Forebear. Moreover, he always has been, from the moment of the Curse until now. At least in one respect, at least enough.
Okay, note the differences between Inheritance and the original Tyranny blurb.
Part of the actual curse-text unmentioned in the first post seem less curselike and maybe even admirable. "May you carry on unswervingly until the bitter and uttermost end." This absolute, heroic, determination is presented as a weakness that the Forebear inflicted on the Accursed. Presumably, in a conflict with their mutual enemies, it might also be a weakness in Hunger.
The defining feature of the Forebear is his willpower, sharpened in an endless fight against implausible foes. With power alone he broke free of his prison - with his freedom, he presumably went fishing at some point but he also Cursed the Accursed. There's no evidence to suggest that the Hidden Ones planned for that result. I actually do think the Forebear got one over on them there, maybe.
But when the diminished Forebear got isekai'd and put through hell, to face it with that determination, and then bore the Crowning Curse that ensured there would always be a whetstone for that absolute will that has something to do with the Doom of Tyranny? Adversity only makes Hunger more determined. The Hidden Ones know this.
You say that Hunger won't be distracted from the HIdden Ones. Yes, exactly! They're thrilled that he can't be deterred from his current path of Cutting and Cutting until he Cuts Through them, because if he did swerve from his current course, he might find one that would actually work (better).
The actions of the Hidden Ones have always increased the Forebear's resolve. Why would that be to their benefit?
My hypothesis is that Uttermost Will, the Forebear's "essential nature", is not only the method by which he managed to enact the Curse (okay, that's just a fact, that's the only way he does anything), but also the method by which the curse persists. Because it is the curse.
This is a ridiculous argument, because it's a ridiculous, fairy tale curse with a ridiculous escape clause. It might seem far too fragile, but who would bet against the will of the Forebear? That was the wrong choice last time, right?
I am saying that Hunger can become a High Cursebearer by definition, by removing a Curse, the definition set forth in the Vengeance blurb. Not in the way of stat or Rank +'s. Without Progression, Hunger will obviously be far, far weaker.
But he will have won, and I've heard that's all that matters.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[x] Freedom
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
You know, another vengeance option we kinda completely missed at the time? Terminal Advent. Figuring out how to aim at the Hidden Ones would admittedly have been difficult, and the collateral damage thing is just unconscionable in normal circumstances, but having the ability to inflict the Apocryphal on HCB-level enemies is actually probably proportionate to shoving them through the Procession.