BOTH options will have Hunger do a lot of good, though Freedom is on a lower scale while Vengeance will also have to cause a significant quantity of pain on the road to FAR more good than Freedom could accomplish.
I wouldn't agree with this, in large part because of what Inheritance is and includes:
Ruin Incarnate: The Forebear is Ruin itself and casts its pallor across all that he touches; every person, object, polity or phenomenon with which he enters contact is doomed irrevocably to ruin. Though, being its absolute master, the ending of his favored kingdoms may come only after the long and gentle decay of a vigintillion eons; while the barding of his enemy disintegrates in moments.

*Merge Rank and Ruin. The wielder's Rank now drives all within its influence to ruin of some form, though the wielder has great discretion over the nature and timeframe of manifestation.
*If Rank is infinite, its cardinality is now determined by the wielder's prior Rank and the might of their Power of Ruin.
Everything Hunger touches will come to ruin irrevocably. That Hunger might do good for viginintillion eons, what does that matter in face of infinity? Even in the Winter Dynasty the Princess had not the power to overcome the certitude of the End.

Eventually what this means Hunger, or rather the Forebear, must be removed for the sake of existence. It's like Decimation, but less... fixable.
 
so, again. life of pain in service of a higher ideal, or life of happiness while doing what good he can (which is a lot) until the day a bigger fish appears. They're both valid options
That's the thing, they are not. If you took this out of context and ask people what character would they prefer, the one who went all out for 1% chance of starting chain of events that would eventually lead to super salvation of everything or the one that didn't do that to chill in their personal heaven, well you can guess how that would go. The reason why you get these cope arguments such as "Vengeance is secretly a trap option where we become evil" or "Freedom will totally accomplish the same as Vengeance without taking the same risk" or "Accursed wants us to sit and enjoy instead of saving entirety of everything, and he is smartest" is precisely because if you take Vengeance for what it is, and Freedom for what it is, Vengeance is just way more compelling than being Nameless 2.0.

What makes Freedom competitive option is that, yes, it is a good end for Hunger, and we always need to take in consideration that massive portion of SV is risk averse to a fault, preferring safe options regardless of how morally or practically sound they are just as long as they are not immediately dangerous. It doesn't matter that "loss" Vengeance can leads to still has Hunger living a fulfilling life of heroism and power escalation and combat, as it is a loss people still want to avoid it because they are risk averse like that.
 
I don't mind freedom winning but I don't like some of the arguments that people bring up for it and to try to make it the answer that somehow solves both.

Freedom already has its points and Vengeance also has its points so there is no need to try to make one pointless by saying it's big point can also be accomplished or what is accomplished by Freedom is also good enough.

Stop trying to half ass the choices please, this is the vote for making a clear decision on Hungers future by voting for what you find most important, a peaceful life or the small chance to make a truly big impact.
 
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Everything Hunger touches will come to ruin irrevocably. That Hunger might do good for viginintillion eons, what does that matter in face of infinity? Even in the Winter Dynasty the Princess had not the power to overcome the certitude of the End.

Eventually what this means Hunger, or rather the Forebear, must be removed for the sake of existence. It's like Decimation, but less... fixable.

you think that the kingdoms Freedom-Hunger would rule over won't fall eventually?! We don't even know if he'll LIVE that long in either of the endings, that's a problem for Future Hunger (and Accursed)

That's the thing, they are not. If you took this out of context and ask people what character would they prefer, the one who went all out for 1% chance of starting chain of events that would eventually lead to super salvation of everything or the one that didn't do that to chill in their personal heaven, well you can guess how that would go. The reason why you get these cope arguments such as "Vengeance is secretly a trap option where we become evil" or "Freedom will totally accomplish the same as Vengeance without taking the same risk" or "Accursed wants us to sit and enjoy instead of saving entirety of everything, and he is smartest" is precisely because if you take Vengeance for what it is, and Freedom for what it is, Vengeance is just way more compelling than being Nameless 2.0.

What makes Freedom competitive option is that, yes, it is a good end for Hunger, and we always need to take in consideration that massive portion of SV is risk averse to a fault, preferring safe options regardless of how morally or practically sound they are just as long as they are not immediately dangerous. It doesn't matter that "loss" Vengeance can leads to still has Hunger living a fulfilling life of heroism and power escalation and combat, as it is a loss people still want to avoid it because they are risk averse like that.

his personal heaven is also immense.

I won't to state it here that I do NOT believe the "vengeance is a trap option" and ""freedom will accomplish Vengeance stuff", and I think I made it clear.


They're simply "do more good, with chance of ABSOLUTE good, at cost of personal happiness and some more suffering delivered in the mid-time" and "do less good, but also be happy".
 
That's the thing, they are not. If you took this out of context and ask people what character would they prefer, the one who went all out for 1% chance of starting chain of events that would eventually lead to super salvation of everything or the one that didn't do that to chill in their personal heaven, well you can guess how that would go. The reason why you get these cope arguments such as "Vengeance is secretly a trap option where we become evil" or "Freedom will totally accomplish the same as Vengeance without taking the same risk" or "Accursed wants us to sit and enjoy instead of saving entirety of everything, and he is smartest" is precisely because if you take Vengeance for what it is, and Freedom for what it is, Vengeance is just way more compelling than being Nameless 2.0.

What makes Freedom competitive option is that, yes, it is a good end for Hunger, and we always need to take in consideration that massive portion of SV is risk averse to a fault, preferring safe options regardless of how morally or practically sound they are just as long as they are not immediately dangerous. It doesn't matter that "loss" Vengeance can leads to still has Hunger living a fulfilling life of heroism and power escalation and combat, as it is a loss people still want to avoid it because they are risk averse like that.

A Vengeance loss could also lead to Forebear 2.0 getting into another fight with The Accursed and making things worse.

you think that the kingdoms Freedom-Hunger would rule over won't fall eventually?! We don't even know if he'll LIVE that long in either of the endings, that's a problem for Future Hunger (and Accursed)



his personal heaven is also immense.

I won't to state it here that I do NOT believe the "vengeance is a trap option" and ""freedom will accomplish Vengeance stuff", and I think I made it clear.


They're simply "do more good, with chance of ABSOLUTE good, at cost of personal happiness and some more suffering delivered in the mid-time" and "do less good, but also be happy".

Without Apocryphal, Indenture+Tyrant+Decimator is Procession-. It's not even as bad as the Procession, and Hunger beat that in his previous incarnation. Cursebearer protections limit the risk of 'bigger fish ate you' so I'm reasonably confident that Hunger could, in fact, finish the whole Indenture.
 
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One thing to note is that we also get Inheritance. Inheritance gives all that infinite willpowers stuff, of course, but that is just powerlevel shit that doesn't matter at this juncture. What does matter is
Inheritence represents the past, Hunger's identity as the Forebear of Dynasties, the culmination of ancient promises, Hunger's relationships with Gisena and Haeliel; victory though at grievous cost and the might of Hunger alone. ++Gisena, +Haeliel, unlocks Haeliel Ending.
unlocks Haeliel Ending
Pog? 👀
 
One fun thing I was doing re: Vengeance was considering how good Inheritance and BH work together, as we have unique opportunity to have two Heroic Advancements work side by side. Now most of this is not actually relevant here as we are past power level stuff being important, but it is still fun exercise.

First thing to consider are STATS:
Inheritance
*+800% All Attributes
*+1000 Might +s
BH
*+100,000 Might and AGI, +10,000 INT, WITS, APP, PROT, and Prowess
You will notice that Inheritance focuses on % all attributes while BH gives us flat value, meaning that they stack multiplicatively. Not only that this gives us truly absurd amount of important mental stats, but we also get a wholly absurd amount of Might - which is especially important because:
Inheritance
*If Rank is infinite, its cardinality is now determined by the wielder's prior Rank and the might of their Power of Ruin.
Our Rank power depends on Might which, with BH, is around ten thousand times greater than it would have be otherwise. Not only that, but with SitS active, our infinite Rank will be transmitted through entirety of our territories, fighting any potential foe and working to improve outcome of our populace.

The strongest part of BH is of course:
*+1 ISH in battle, applied to all direct offensive actions and relevant forms of defense.
Which is now applied to:
Inheritance
*Apply Imprisoner True's Sanctum effect to the entirety of Hunger's kingdoms.
This would mean that our entire kingdom would be protected by Sanctum's 4.5 ISH(currently) effect, as well as our many times infinite + 1 ISH Rank. A truly absurd combination(November Sky is helping too!) which focuses on wide area denial. Combined with:
*Armies of the Shogun: Absorbs the Shogun to acquire the following ability - no matter how powerful the wielder becomes, the military forces under his personal command will always represent a significant contribution to his overall strength. This operates by empowering the wielder's subordinates so long as they exist within the context of an army, squad or military corps. Informal associations thereof (furious mob, adventuring party, hive-mind creature swarm) also qualify. The force in question must receive the wielder's personal leadership in combat; but once it has done so and is recognized as such, will persist with a significant fraction of its newfound strength even should the wielder fall. Only one force may benefit at a time, be it single yojimbo or limitless self-multiplying horde.

Forces of greater size, cohesion and quality enjoy a larger increase: the leader of a squad might find them empowered only to half his own strength, while the Shogun of a millions-strong army would see its combined might eclipse his own 100 times. Diminishing returns apply beyond that level.
We can have eternal war strategy where our greatly empowered troops go out to expand our area of influence in quite literal way, while being able to retreat to safety of ever present sanctum and Rank coverage. In case that we are ever truly challenged, we can use troop power loop and SitS activation to deal with stronger foes.

Final synergy is somewhat less obvious, or perhaps it appears less direct, and yet is most important of them all. With Inheritance, we get infinite Willpower to spam Praxis with, and that same Praxis is then elevated by BH +1ISH boost(plus +0.4ISH from SitS OaF II). This allows Hunger to fight at extremely high level, and lets him easily grow in power short term by just getting strong Praxis techniques and then employing them in combat.
 
Has anybody thought about that the Accursed favor going up might not have that much to do with what he gets out of it in the end and instead what he wishes for Hunger to do because of compassion amoung other things?

Yes yes I know "are you saying you know better than the Accursed?" But I still think the Accursed aim might be more on Hunger living a happy life instead of fighting forever to might free him from a whole curse at the end but that's just my thoughts.

Also this is basically a dead end, a part of freedom side argues that freedom's ending will be enough curse mitigation while people from Vengeance side say back that it just won't be enough to matter because of the big gap between Hunger and the Accursed and that to actually get something meaningful from it we need to take the risk or not and let Hunger have a peaceful life instead.
These are generally assumed to be true, at least as far as I've seen. The Accursed's all about that kinder world, underneath the Lathe his motives are pretty traditional.

I mean, his title is the End of Stories - I'd be surprised if he didn't prefer people bowing out instead of running themselves ragged.
Stop trying to half ass the choices please, this is the vote for making a clear decision on Hungers future by voting for what you find most important, a peaceful life or the small chance to make a truly big impact.
The greater good is nothing but that shit. Turning moral concerns into a numbers game is done because it makes everything into a loaded question.

So, no. The hubris intrinsic in trying to casually multiply the amount of conceptual good you are doing is very much a part of this debate and should not be written off.
 
The greater good is nothing but that shit. Turning moral concerns into a numbers game is done because it makes everything into a loaded question.

So, no. The hubris intrinsic in trying to casually multiply the amount of conceptual good you are doing is very much a part of this debate and should not be written off.
Not gonna lie, seeing SV bend itself into a pretzel over trying to explain how doing the impossible to fix reality is actually a bad thing is pretty fun.
 
And that's your good right to want but others want to take the risk so all we can do is see who's desired end is gonna happen.

(at least ones we know what we want)
 
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I can try agrument that "we can do isekai kingdom builder" with freedom choice.
But technically we already do kingdom building.
 
Inheritance also removes Hunger's ability to mitigate his fraction of the Doom of the Tyrant. Which is, obviously, a bad thing.
Hunger hasn't been able to mitigate the Doom since restoring the Forebear's Blade following Vanreir, a state of affairs that's caused him very little trouble during the quest. It's honestly hard to imagine what Hunger would be without it. In that regard Vengeance simply acknowledges a preexisting truth, freeing him from the Curse by incorporating it into his nature. I believe Freedom restores his ability to mitigate it, but Freedom is definitely not the anti-Doom option.

Moving away from Curses, let's address an even more contentious topic: waifus! Does Hunger truly yearn for Catherine's restoration? Obviously, all else equal, he would rather his wife and child be restored. But he rarely thinks about Catherine, and has done so progressively less over time. The tragedy is a source of resolve, a well of motivation to be drawn from whenever his reserves flag, a representation of the world's injustice. At this point she's more idea than woman, while Hunger the man has mostly moved on thanks to time, Gisena, and the influence of his Ring.

And honestly, while I was a fan when Hunger flashed back to her final moments the first time he Cut Through, every subsequent bit of information has made her less appealing. Her alternate universe self's insane vendetta doesn't reflect well on the original. Ceathlynn's run support for not one but two Apocryphal antagonists, aiding and abetting Dien of all people - not that the Maiden attempting to blow up the Human Sphere is much better than his horrors. Catherine herself was a possible proc, and that version of her would've fought to weaken Hunger against the Surgeon. "She will do what she believes is right, no matter the cost," but at this point I have zero confidence that Catherine's moral compass points to true north, especially not with whatever remains of the Maiden inside her. Conviction without clarity to see the correct path is destructive at best.

Hunger is a different person than the hero-that-was. His memories are all but completely gone. His name has been obliterated beyond the possibility of retrieval. He was a rebel; now he bears the Tyrant's Doom. If the best argument for taking Freedom is that the Accursed's asking it of him, what does that say about the strength of Hunger's bond with Catherine? If pining for her had received even a fraction of the wordcount devoted to fishing, I'd be fine with Freedom. But as-is, I don't see Hunger being willing to cede any chance of true relevance at the highest levels for her.
 
I'm of the simple opinion that vengeance makes more sense thematically with everything hungers done so far. Maiden tries to emotionally blackmail you into giving up your burdens to suit her own ends? Cut through her and move on. Hunger is a man with a goal, who will stop at nothing to achieve that goal. He would be happier in freedom, but I don't think happiness was ever what Hunger was searching for.

I would rather see the struggle for a true victory, even if that may just be a dream.
 
To be quite honest, judging Catherine by the actions explicitly caused by Apocryphal inflaming her alternate self's fanaticism to tremendous heights just feels off to me, Orm.

As a reminder about how that Apo proc vote looked like:
By the power of the Apocryphal Curse, Ceathlynn's hatred of the Anomaly and the tyranny it represents has been inflamed to fanatical levels. While she cannot condone Dien's horrors, she see's Hunger's subjugation by Rank to be no less total in effect.
 
Another question is - does Hunger actually deserve Accursed stepping in to lift Apocryphal Curse? While Hunger's ascent was meteoric, to say the least, realistically we only fought a couple of five picks and a couple of four picks. Compare this to HCBs, which require infinite 10+ pick level fights to get there - Hunger's own exertion seem quite paltry in comparison, don't they?

Really, how would Haeliel feel, doing like 15 picks fights every day, while Hunger discards whooping one in thousand chance to free Accursed from one of his Curses? No wonder Seraph of Heroism does not condone Freedom, for it is not a choice any self respecting hero would make....
 
But it's not him doing it? The deal's sponsored by the Apocryphal Curse, thus why it reflects her interests. See here:
"No." She shook her head. "To return her would require more than all that remains of me. But your Crowning Curse has already promised its aid. Catherine would thereafter be Foremost, and myself a mere part of her. It would not be possible were her nature not already aligned with mine. You already know, better than any, how small a change that would be."
2) In Freedom, The Apocryphal Curse is departing because Freedom is an interesting enough ending for the story of the Forebear and Hunger. But if Hunger did not relinquish Progression, it would not so depart. The former is the cause; the second is a necessary additional condition. Buying a ticket entitles you to ride the train, if you are also tall enough to ride.
That he would prefer it personally doesn't mean he's funding it. If he were, it would cost favor instead of rewarding it.
 
Another question is - does Hunger actually deserve Accursed stepping in to lift Apocryphal Curse? While Hunger's ascent was meteoric, to say the least, realistically we only fought a couple of five picks and a couple of four picks. Compare this to HCBs, which require infinite 10+ pick level fights to get there - Hunger's own exertion seem quite paltry in comparison, don't they?

Really, how would Haeliel feel, doing like 15 picks fights every day, while Hunger discards whooping one in thousand chance to free Accursed from one of his Curses? No wonder Seraph of Heroism does not condone Freedom, for it is not a choice any self respecting hero would make....
this part actually confused me.

Aren't 5 picks fight basically fights you're REALLY supposed to lose, but you win anyway because you find a way through?

How would 10-picks fight even be viable? Isn't that basically the equivalent of a normal human fighting, say, Goku?

...well, I suppose a normal human could trick Goku or poison him, but you get what I mean. If the number of picks scale to your personal power, then there should be a number of picks (and I kinda suspected it to be 6 or 7 picks) when winning is outright impossible. Or are you meant to become stronger mid-fight? Wouldn't that LOWER the number of picks?
 
Gah! What a time to remember this story. Without catching up I feel it's wrong to vote for the final decision.

Except, well. I do remember the basics of Rihaku quests. Always press the red button, yeah?

Waiting warmly for the resolution.
 
I made my peace with my choice, and I made my peace with the probability of it losing. I just want want an non-ambiguous happy ending for Hunger. Mostly because IRL is kind of shit right now, gonna admit.

Anyway, FWIW, both choices grant Accursed Favor, even if Big Boss has a clear preference. I don't think that probability of Hunger being turned against Accursed is particularly great, in comparison to just dying waaaaaay before reaching HCB status or any real relevance to Accursed's cosmic struggle.

I think this choice is very much what it is on tin; trillion years of relative misery and a minor possibility of eventually achieving utopia, or trillions years of happiness, and a minor possibility of eventually getting swept off the board by some manner of hyper-cosmic ISH ∞ murderfish who'll merely kill you if you are lucky.*

*Rihakuverse is kind of existentially terrifying, and Hunger already gotten fucked up by cosmics accident/malicious will of higher entities several times. It happening for the third time is something I cannot not consider, especially over periods of time like trillions of years and octillions of years and whatever of years, you get the gist.
this part actually confused me.
By generating an obscene amount of arete, probably.
 
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Luckily, neither Hunger nor Gisena (nor Haeliel) are fucking stupid, so we don't need to worry about them doing most obvious dumb thing there is.
You know who else isn't stupid? The Accursed.

If it's so obvious that the Forebear reborn will never again take up arms against the Accursed and we don't need to worry about it... Why does the Accursed bring it up as a possibility?
"Once you proscribed to pay me back for the powers I had imparted on you. Do me this favor, old foe: rest. Let me never again be forced to take up arms against you...

…It was a difficult enough fight the first time."
The Accursed isn't stupid! If he brings it up as a possibility it's because it's a real concern! If you seriously think you know better than the Accursed himself, then I don't know what to tell you...
 
Tyrant's Doom is likely the most impactful non-Crown curse we can get rid of(Decimator is up there, but Decimator seems much easier to mitigate with effort, and at Accursed level its effects likely just abstracted to "universe is a bit worse place to live"). Tyrant actually fundamentally how Accursed can approach both his allies and other relatively peer entities, and giving Accursed more agency is just beyond valuable.
I don't think it is too arrogant to say that successful removal of Tyrant might start sequence of events that would eventually lead to Victorious World. Not taking a chance now that we have been offered it would just be criminal.
Are you counting Culling?
BOTH options will have LONG lives, because Hunger is just that awesome.
Actually, @Rihaku said 'trillions of years'. Literally a hundred quadrillion times less than the thousandth of the Indenture his success chance implies he'd survive. Might just be him being bad at math?
One fun thing I was doing re: Vengeance was considering how good Inheritance and BH work together, as we have unique opportunity to have two Heroic Advancements work side by side. Now most of this is not actually relevant here as we are past power level stuff being important, but it is still fun exercise.
Yeah, and it also does some things we might want to avoid, even just tactically:
[ ] Regalia of Strife [3 picks, 50 Arete OR Heroic Advancement] - Req. The Forebear's Blade, the Tears of Winter, the Evening Sky, King of Winter, Breaker of Suns - Supreme Commander, Core Panoply, Closing the Fist.

Inset upon that iron guard like jewels atop a crown, like stars plucked from evening's face and forge-bound into covenant; the tears of the sky adorn that murder-weapon, wed might to glory that all under heaven shall yield to its reign.

*The Tears of Winter are fused with the Evening Sky, then set upon the hilt-guard of the Forebear's Blade. Integrates, upgrades, and imbues Breaker of Suns and Core Panoply into the Blade, causing the resulting Advancement to be available to the worthy wielders of that weapon. This does mean that effects which renounce the blade, even temporarily such as Sword in the Stone, will deprive the wielder of those Advancements for the duration.
*Retroactively apply the % Rank Gain from Breaker of Suns to the Rank acquired from Core Panoply.
*Combine the wielder's Might with their Charisma. Combine all Attribute +s, sum all % Modifiers, and effects that augment or draw upon the Attributes in question now interact fully and seamlessly with the new combined Attribute, named Potency. Refinement of Battle now multiplies Potency, increasing both the character's physical and interpersonal force with undiluted effectiveness; Vigor Incarnate adds the character's full Potency to their Protection. Holy Shit doubles the character's Potency against individuals weaker than him. However, Sky Veil now reduces physical strength alongside charisma if employed.
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++Potency, Potency minimum modifier set to 500%
*The intensity of Supreme Commander is automatically maximized regardless of feats. Even unmoving does the character's power distend the Astral wheresoever his name is known.
*Add the Prowess Attribute to the character's trainable qualities. Perhaps with sufficient skill the consequences of power overwhelming might be mitigated.
Can't use Sky Veil for its' job anymore.
[ ] Refinement of War: The Iron Fist - Causes the technique to become permanently active, at the cost of a permanent 90% investment of the character's present and future Praxis Endurance, and one half-stage reduction of his mitigation of the Tyrant's Doom. This may cause behavioral changes beyond that of an unmitigated Doom.
The Doom isn't mitigatable thanks to Inheritor, and the half-stage reduction it starts with - which is what allows Hunger to take orders from The Accursed is removed. (I'm not sure it only starts with a half-stage reduction, but if it was a whole stage I'm not sure why base-level Gisena could mitigate it any.)

Now, those are a Conjunctional Advancement and a Praxis Advancement, respectively, and I'm vastly more worried about the latter, which seems slightly less likely to be autogained by picking Vengeance.

But you understand why people are worried about value drift?
 
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