Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Location
- Terror Australis
I honestly think this is a fair bit worse than just not explaining. It is the sort of condescending "I am vastly wiser than thou" behaviour that is likely to rightly infuriate Murphy.
-I do not agree.
The customary response of shen, hengeyokai and the like to unclaimed and disruptive chih-mei is to kill them. Not to capture them for trade. Wyldfae are not likely to be any different.
-Molly was immediately pegged as an archdevil by a bunch of malks.
The idea that actual agents of the Yama Kings would pull an Annatar on fae doesnt actually pass the sniff test.
"Oh, we'll take these chih-mei off your hands". Fae are many things, but they arent stupid.
-This is not true.Wyldfae care very much about what the Courts think. When the Courts go to war, the Call of the Courts makes a lot of wyldfae choose to align themselves to either Court. And its general Court policy that the wyldfae are their business which deters a significant level of fuckery by random supernaturals towards the weakest wyldfae.
Do not mistake a small group of wyldfae, acting on the behest and as a weapon of an appointed Emissary of Winter, as being indicative of general wyldfae policy.
-Agree to disagree.
-Remember that Fae are creatures of Law. Whatever else they are, all Fae are scrupulous about rules.
And the Fae are still faithful to their function(s). The Yama Kings, and the Hells they rule, betrayed theirs.
They would pretty much be matter and antimatter.
-Also worth remembering that yugen chi?
Which Yama Kings use for upgrading greater akuma, and which is particularly nutritious to kueijin? Is essentially the eastern term for Glamor in World of Darkness. And in WoD, Glamor is associated with and can be harvested from fae and changelings.
Yama Kings are going to be just as interested in harvesting Fae as in hunting chih-mei.
No they arent.
The Solar Deliberative was roughly 300 Solars, 300 Lunars and 100 Sidereals.
They led tens of millions of Dragonbloods, Dragon Kings, Jadeborn and mortals to win the Primordial War and imprison the Yozi.
If the Wan Xian were ever wielding Celestial Exalt-level power, there would be no Yama Kings. Because they'd be all dead.
Hell, Dragonblooded brotherhoods were known to bully and kill actual Exalted gods.
And no, Wan Xian were never on the level of ExWoD's Celestials.
Go take another look at the Solar charmset, with especial emphasis on things like You Should Be More and the Medicine charms.
Take a look at the Secret Arts of the Sidereals.
And thats before we actually look at Exalted Craft.
Point of correction:
Exalted 2E had 700 Celestial Exaltations during the Primordial War. Total.
And while they werent alone, that 700 led the host that won the Primordial War and imprisoned the Yozi.
The idea that we had 10,000 Celestial Exaltations here for an Age and there is still a Yomi Wan doesnt pass the smell test.
1)They were fighting in midsummer, when Winter is weakest. They were fighting in reality, where you cant wield excessive amounts of power without breaking reality; thats literally why Ferrovax stayed out of it. They were fighting during a major Outsider offensive, when most of Winter's resources were focused on defense of reality.
Ethniu was a Titan, and explicitly stronger personally than pretty much everyone else on that battlefield.
And yet she was vulnerable to a mortal wielding a Sword.
A lot of the Dresdenverse is rock-paper-scissors.
2)The Fomor are signatories because they arent really very strong. The Courts had trashed them before and they ran. Noone outside the Fomor even knew Ethniu was alive, and Ethniu preserved her power levels by staying away from reality; the moment she showed up, she began to eat the debuff that the White God had declared on any divinity that chose to stay active in reality.
3)In Exalted, even 3CDs generally needed significant effort to kill a city. It wasnt a trivial issue.
For Solaroids, citykiller attacks needed either Solar Circle Sorcery along the lines of Rain of Doom or Total Annihilation OR Exalted Craft for Thousand-Forged Dragons or Soulkiller Orbs or Five Metal Shrikes OR creative reinterpretation of Sideral Martial Arts OR elder Charms.
Mab's ability to fuck the globe with personal powers put her firmly in 3CD territory.
4)Mab, Titania and a bunch of others are true immortals, not just unaging but undying.
You can kill them with sufficient effort, but you cant truekill them outside specific conditions with regards to date and place.
They'll just come back. Pissed.
3CD actually.
Ethniu is at the high end of the range, Mab and Titania near the middle to lower end of the scale.
Odin would probably be an unusually powerful 2CD with situational advantages, IMO.
If we really want a nuke? We spend 12xp to buy the 3 dot charm Principle Invoking Onslaught, and then use it to make and load a Davy Crockett launcher. Thats now infinite reloads for the rest of the scene. And as a charm, we can probably combo it with shit like Green Sun Nimbus Flare.
Bonus points if we buy Mind Hand Manipulation first.
- Location
- Germany
Are you all really sure about telling her the truth?
I know its a good instinct not to keep our friends or future friends in the dark. I really do and I don't like it either.
But this is not about Murphy. This is about a US goverment agency finding out the name of a potential traitor to a Yama King that we have a contact with.
Tell me, if you were a deep-cover agent or traitor in some place like, Idk, North Korea, would you want the USA to know about you and be able to play silly games with the value that your identity has?
I know its a good instinct not to keep our friends or future friends in the dark. I really do and I don't like it either.
But this is not about Murphy. This is about a US goverment agency finding out the name of a potential traitor to a Yama King that we have a contact with.
Tell me, if you were a deep-cover agent or traitor in some place like, Idk, North Korea, would you want the USA to know about you and be able to play silly games with the value that your identity has?
1) The gods/top end supernatural powers b int increasing limited on earth is a thing in Dresden Files. Gods used to be able to smite cities, I think, now they aren't allowed to. We're told that Mab can induce a new Ice Age; which is a lot more than one city.
Also; in ExWoD the reason the Black Vault was opened is because the battle against Ravnos (mainly by Wan Kuei Bodhisattva) destroyed Bangladesh as collateral damage. It's because there are monsters that can obliterate countries walking the night that the dragon blooded released the celestial Exaltations. They didn't need to when the only entities on that scale awake and on earth were the Wan Kuei arhats, because they don't do much.
The Wan Xian weren't pushed out if other territories. The Wan Kuei never successfully recovered from being cursed by heaven outside Asia. That's if the Wan Xian were ever present outside Asia at all. In WoD the Kindred spread and filled the niche before the equivalents of dharmas were invented elsewhere.
2) There are thousands of celestial Exalts in Authocthon. They still can't keep him stable. The many threats of the ancient world of darkness may have needed dealing with, alongside the many Yama Kings, who even on Earth are peers to arhats. Dark Ages Fae, for example, are pretty amazingly beefy. Nephandi Archmages in a world without much Paradox would be terrible threats.
Maybe we could explain why we don't want to talk? She's left in the dark all the time in the DF without an explanation why firmer than "because you're mortal and it's either too dangerous or not your business".
Once we're under wards explaining how delicate our trick is and the consequences of anyone learning of it isn't dangerous to us.
Once we're under wards explaining how delicate our trick is and the consequences of anyone learning of it isn't dangerous to us.
That's basically the point I was making though? I discounted everyone other than the celestial exalts, but if you had that many around they'd find or make something to serve as buffer.
Bet a lost nuke would make for amazing crafting materials though. Not sure what we'd make out of it, but it's got strong thematic resonance with Molly.
- Location
- Germany
I'd like to explain that much, if you find a way to say enough with saying too much.
Just letting her know that this is about a potential traitor, or that there's any idea of redeeming Emma-O is already enough for people to connect the dots, since we only met, fought and left alive one Elder Akuma in there.
And letting her know that this is about our long-term plans for Kakuri is as good as nothing.
I guess we could vaguely say that we have ideas concerning Eiko that require her to stays alive, but I'm not sure that's enough for Murphy and if it is enough I'm not sure it might not be too much.
I was wondering when this would happen.
The Nigntmare walked into her office wearing Dresden's face and mindscrewed her in Grave Peril.
Papa Raith mindwhammied her trivially in Blood Rites.
Later on, a maenad canonically whammies her in Last Call.
Intentions mean nothing without capability.
Promising to tell her the truth here puts not just her own life at risk, which is her prerogative, but other people, which is not her right to risk.
Murphy specifically has had people enter her head at least two times in the series so far without her having any ability to gainsay it.
The Nigntmare walked into her office wearing Dresden's face and mindscrewed her in Grave Peril.
Papa Raith mindwhammied her trivially in Blood Rites.
Later on, a maenad canonically whammies her in Last Call.
Intentions mean nothing without capability.
Promising to tell her the truth here puts not just her own life at risk, which is her prerogative, but other people, which is not her right to risk.
For the third time, I did not say the Wildfae capture Chei-Mei. I said that they'd inform people who turned about to be akuma of Emma-O about them. Those akuma then come and capture the Chei-Mei, and the locals say thank you very much and are grateful they didn't have to put down a dangerous supernatural predator. The locals may not ever know they dealt with akuma.
Yes, yes they are. Solo invading Hell is very much a celestial scale feat.
They're on the level of ExWoD celestials. And the main line solar power set is irrelevant. I never said they were solar tier. I said they were ExWoD celestial tier. And their discussed feats are.
Note that an Arhat or Antedeluvian is meant to be a threat to a circle of experienced celestial exalts. Arhats are less powerful than the elder Wan Xian.
And Exalted gods apart from the Incarna are generally shit. Most tier one WoD supernaturals would push them around.
[X] Promise to explain to Murphy why you let Lady Eiko live
-[X] Tell the truth
I maintain that if properly supplied, and developed, Murphy and Special Investigations can be a great asset. And Murphy herself is smart enough not to let her loose lips sink ships, as it was.
Also, for the next month and following that - it's allowed to donate money to specific police departments in USA, as I gathered. I think we should set aside at least 50-100 k per month for SI. This should buy us good will from them.
-[X] Tell the truth
I maintain that if properly supplied, and developed, Murphy and Special Investigations can be a great asset. And Murphy herself is smart enough not to let her loose lips sink ships, as it was.
Also, for the next month and following that - it's allowed to donate money to specific police departments in USA, as I gathered. I think we should set aside at least 50-100 k per month for SI. This should buy us good will from them.
Every akuma on such a mission will have Mask of Yomi which makes it impossible to supernaturally detect they're an akuma.
And that's why they'd pay for tip off about a chih-mei.
And do I have to repeat for the fourth time I did not say the Wildfae capture Chih-Mei.
We have never seen the Wildfae be reluctant to sell information. That's what they'd be selling, not Chih-Mei themselves.
And they're not really relevant, as we're not talking original Exalted.
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- Location
- Germany
More funding for the CPD is certainly not a thing that ever made anything better, IRL or in fiction.
Molly should just prioritise taking over the municipal government
We could buy Endless Torment Emanation and target such projects as "embezzling money from Special investigations". Use that hell magic to really root out the corruption.
This is for a different part of the convo. I don't even know what you are discussing what with whom.
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Give up and coming leadership training with Chirality Prohibition Index, have them fomor possessed, and use VEE to grant them leadership positions, and we can just tell them not to be corrupt, and they'll obey.
Apologies.
*singing* Everything is easier with demons. Demons make the world go 'round
- Location
- Terror Australis
They aren't even vaguely in the same league as 3rd circle Devas/Demons. I compared them to exalted gods for a reason.
Mab for instance in pretty much the god (of winter) version of Octavian, The Living Tower. She is has solid personal power and rules a large empire with strong underlings.
3rd circles are entities like:
Ligier - literally a sun, greatest smith in Malfeas, makes what are in DF legendary artifacts as a hobby.
Jacint - creates and maintains all the roads between layers of a shellworld between the size of jupiter and earths orbit.
Munaxes - a bottomless chasm that can cause earthquakes at will and possess a rather broad form of intellectus
Orabilis - the demon version of the archive except he also automatically knows of everyone who knows a secret forbiden by the Yozis and can make it rain glass.
Kagami - an entire living mirror world
All third circles function at a level of raw power that Mab, Ethniu and others never even approach. The only beings who seem to operate on the level of 3rd circle in DF are Angels and the Walkers.
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I will say this much, the universeis not what it was, if by some dreadful mischance the souls of the Yozis were to walk the living earth the pillars of existence would shake with their alien intrusion upon reality. So comparing their powers directly to modern supernatural heavy weights does not work that well with the canvas of 'what can be done and how' having shifted in the passing of ages.
Alrighty, just for the encyclopedic curiosity sake then, since I managed to find it.
Stats for Ligier weren't actually ever printed. Same for most other 3CD. Late lifecycle "Glories of the Most High" where we had seen stuff like Sol and his infinite damage spear ridiculousness never rolled toward 3CDs, and so they spent most of their E2.5 lifecycle as a couple of sample charms, and rough guidelines to trait statistics.
But what we do have is kind of telling.
Here is the Sword of Yozi. Ligier uses this thing when he is sandbagging, having fun and giving face to mortals and exalts he finds remarkable in some way.
Stats for Ligier weren't actually ever printed. Same for most other 3CD. Late lifecycle "Glories of the Most High" where we had seen stuff like Sol and his infinite damage spear ridiculousness never rolled toward 3CDs, and so they spent most of their E2.5 lifecycle as a couple of sample charms, and rough guidelines to trait statistics.
But what we do have is kind of telling.
Here is the Sword of Yozi. Ligier uses this thing when he is sandbagging, having fun and giving face to mortals and exalts he finds remarkable in some way.
When fighting in a contest of arms with his brass daiklave, Ligier wields the blade as a powerful solo unit, forcing his opponents to engage using the mass combat rules if they wish to fight him.
The blade's traits are as follows: Join War: 20 Sword of the Yozis: Speed 3, Accuracy 25, Damage 25L (piercing), Parry DV 13, Rate unlimited; provides Ligier with one reflexive perfect parry that refreshes each time he gets a new action Dodge DV: 15, Soak: 10A/25L/25B, Hardness: 6A/16L/16B Mass Combat: Magnitude 6, Drill 5, Endurance 25, Might 8
Health Levels: If Ligier suffers 25 health levels of damage while fighting with the Sword of the Yozis—scarcely a scratch for the Green Sun—he gracefully retires from the contest with a flourishing acknowledgement of recognition of his foe's worthiness against his favored creation.
He will not willingly rejoin combat against the same opponent for at least 25 hours unless that foe further challenges him, even resisting the bindings of sorcery.
Should an enemy press the issue, Ligier will respond with unfettered force, and it is up to the Storyteller whether his foolhardy attackers are doomed to tragic failure or are sufficiently epic to finally defeat the heart of Malfeas. His untapped All-Encompassing Divine Melee Subordination, coupled with completely untouched Principle of Motion action pools, pales in comparison to the infernal sorcery, realm-warping martial arts and sky-rending power the Green Sun might bring to bear when angered.
The blade's traits are as follows: Join War: 20 Sword of the Yozis: Speed 3, Accuracy 25, Damage 25L (piercing), Parry DV 13, Rate unlimited; provides Ligier with one reflexive perfect parry that refreshes each time he gets a new action Dodge DV: 15, Soak: 10A/25L/25B, Hardness: 6A/16L/16B Mass Combat: Magnitude 6, Drill 5, Endurance 25, Might 8
Health Levels: If Ligier suffers 25 health levels of damage while fighting with the Sword of the Yozis—scarcely a scratch for the Green Sun—he gracefully retires from the contest with a flourishing acknowledgement of recognition of his foe's worthiness against his favored creation.
He will not willingly rejoin combat against the same opponent for at least 25 hours unless that foe further challenges him, even resisting the bindings of sorcery.
Should an enemy press the issue, Ligier will respond with unfettered force, and it is up to the Storyteller whether his foolhardy attackers are doomed to tragic failure or are sufficiently epic to finally defeat the heart of Malfeas. His untapped All-Encompassing Divine Melee Subordination, coupled with completely untouched Principle of Motion action pools, pales in comparison to the infernal sorcery, realm-warping martial arts and sky-rending power the Green Sun might bring to bear when angered.
Forget redemption.
Even from a cold, realpolitik PoV, an opportuntity to turn an aggressively expansionist infernal power into a conservative isolationist one is something that anyone with two licks of sense would recognize as worth taking.
Both spooks and law enforcement can understand the rationale; spooks with international relations, and cops with organized crime.
Misread your reply.
My apologies.
Eh.
Thematic resonance is arguable, but like you said, I cant imagine what she'd be crafting that would use one of those.
Okay. So not capture.
Just follow and track and invest their own time and effort for something they could kill or evade.
Dharma 0 chihmei are more along the lines of nuisances than dangerous supernatural predators.
At least to fae.
And given they roam the material world, not the NeverNever.
-No it isnt.
Mikaboshi was a vanilla human geomancer who had grabbed some power when he fled to Yomi Wan and set up shop there.
There's Wan Kuei who are still there; Emma-O himself has some of them as rebels in Kakuri.
-Point of correction:
An antediluvian is statted to be a challenge to celestial Exalts. Not necessarily a full Circle either.
And I know there is no stat block for elder Wan Xian, so I dont see where you are getting this from.
-Thats untrue.
There's a broad spectrum of Exalted gods, and a bunch of the mid tiers are credible threats.
Hell, there's Exalted lesser elementals here that represent credible threats to tier one WoD supernaturals.
There arent very many people who have an interest in chih-mei, and only two groups who have any interest in taking them alive.
And supernatural people dont really deal with randos with no bona fides.
The only wyldfae we see sell information are wyldfae Dresden has an ongoing relationship with.
Toot Toot. The Za Guard. The brownies at the shoe store.
Wyldfae dont just deal with anyone, even when they have the information.
^^^
I mean, I understand a lot of people here arent American, but the Chicago Police Department has a reputation for a reason.
They have a yearly budget of around 40% of city expenses, coming to $1.7 billion in 2020.
For reference, thats around 10% the 2023 defense budget of Israel.
Money has never been the issue.
That does make sense, but when using such logic it comes down to how much you trust the Library of Congress to apply realpolitik in the direction Molly herself would
[X] Refuse to explain (Will damage your relationship with Murphy)
[X] Plan Kept in the Dark and Fed on Bullshit
I do not trust the Library types with this.
This is a secret with very far reaching consequences. And it only remains a secret as long as not half the government is aware of it.
[X] Plan Kept in the Dark and Fed on Bullshit
I do not trust the Library types with this.
This is a secret with very far reaching consequences. And it only remains a secret as long as not half the government is aware of it.
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Octavian? No.
You might characterize the Erl King as Octavian. In which case the Leanansidhe, or maybe Maeve, would probably be Mara.
Mab is....more. She may not be Ligier, but Ligier is literally Malfeas' only surviving fetich.
He's not a reasonable benchmark for 3CDs.
Of course, there are few direct equivalences here between DF and Ex2.
🤷
Fair.
I certainly wouldnt want to risk it.