-Naagloshii are the second or third most terrifying combat antagonists we've seen in the Dresden Files, short of Ethniu and Drakul.
They have broad-based Intellectus dedicated to how to fuck you up, in a setting where information superiority is a crushing advantage, and non-geographic intellectus is usually the preserve of the really Big Boys.
There are entities who are more broad-spectrum threats, and have done more damage. Strategic scale dangers.
There's also one-off combat abominations like the Coin-bearing Genoskwa.
But for an entire class of non-unique beings you might run into in an alley, you're gonna be hardpressed to do worse.
I mean, its worth recalling that Donald Morgan, second in command of the Wardens of the White Council, was willing to attack the Red King in open battle, cutting his way through multiple high-tier Reds on the battlefield to do so before the Red King ran.
This just happened like three months ago in-quest.
But his reaction to getting hunted by a naagloshii was to run the fuck away and risk a freaking nuclear test site in the 1950s/1960s, when they were cooking off cans of sunshine aboveground in the Nevada desert.
-Some Yama Kings are corrupted divinities. Some are uncorrupted divinities, like Yen Lo and Haha no Fukami.
But most do not appear to have ever been even minor gods prior to being YKs, including some of the most prominent and powerful, like Mikaboshi and Emma.
And we have text evidence for their being crippled just fine by material creatures.
Dont get me wrong, you can kill Dresdenverse Fae royalty. Its very hard, it requires timing and location, but its done.
The Courts promote someone and march on without loss of power. Yama Kings get killed, not regularly, but enough to be notable, and their Hells usually die with them, ripped apart and claimed by others. No timing issues involved
-Word of Jim states that the Erl King is a peer, but nowhere near an equal of Mab.
For the purposes of this quest? Naagloshii, Yama Kings, Mab and the Erl King are all Incarna-class entities.
Some are just a lot more Incarna than others.
*checks*
Some, not all.
Of course WoD often has higher tier magic feats than the Dresdenverse at the high end.
Still, no WoD sorcerer is getting into dustups with Dresdenverse Dragons, which are apparently Incarna-tier entities.
Bella still has the invulnerability of youth, I see.
And what kind of party was she going to at 5-6 AM on a Tuesday?
Man, rich people live different.
What we need is going to be dependent on what we think our worstcase projections are, plus a safety margin for recovering our people. 17 akuma.
Can they summon spirits/demons from Kakuri? Thats the question here.
I would love to send a message with our choices here.
Not enough to hire Odin himself, mind, (LOL) but enough that anyone else who chooses to go after Molly's people, and Molly's people themselves know that she will pull out the stops for them.
I'll note that dresden verse wizards while for the most part are no match they've still got some setting abilities which wouldn't be possible in wod for someone as relatively weak as they can be. Note sure its rare senior council stuff I don't think we have any direct damage abilities even at essence 5 as dresdens grandpa since he can trigger volcanoes and basically mcguyver a meteor via satellites. Also the amount of energy talented wizards can use I mean dresden can do medium damage attacks dozens if not a hundred times in a book over the course of a few days. Sure their not as powerful as we can do or conceptual most of the time still something to note.
"Minor". Its a naagloshii.
It has intellectus. Demonreach has intellectus limited to the island and its a critical advantage for its warden, enought to allow Dresden actually engage a naagloshii. Mab doesnt have intellectus as far as we know; neither does Titania. Or Kringle. Or the Erl King. Or the Fallen.
You have to step up to the Mothers and loyalist angels and archangels to find non-geographically limited intellectus.
In my opinion?
There's precisely one vampire/vampire-like thing in this setting that would be playing in the same weight class as the Antediluvians of canon WoD or better. Thats Drakul. Drakul himself, not his son Dracula.
And Drakul is Serious Business, even with his (alleged)vulnerabilities as something like a Black.
I'll say while its not said its at least fairly likely that the queens have limited intellectus probably limited to geography like their domains and/or related to their subordinates. I mean mab found dresdens corpse after all since it was in cold and darkness. Not that she couldn't get it without just I find it likely they have some form of intellectus for their duties even if its likely far more limited than the mothers or angels.
These high debt votes seem insane to me. I still feel like we should be able to win without any help and the fact that people argued against bringing the ghouls before seems to indicate that you all agreed. Adam would likely still be alive if we brought him on a assault.
But I suppose paranoia about unknown enemies is outweighing the known peril of being in debt to Odin. We already can't afford the AP to manage our current commitments.
These high debt votes seem insane to me. I still feel like we should be able to win without any help and the fact that people argued against bringing the ghouls before seems to indicate that you all agreed. Adam would likely still be alive if we brought him on a assault.
But I suppose paranoia about unknown enemies is outweighing the known peril of being in debt to Odin. We already can't afford the AP to manage our current commitments.
Assuming no new crisis, we should have at least 3 AP next turn that we can spend: one we are spending on kakuri this turn, one we are spending on preparing for Mab this turn, and one from coffee we'll get next turn. At 3 AP we could most likely clear the debt to Odin, if it's only craft. 1 AP is roughly equivalent to five days of work. 3 AP is equivalent to 15 days of work. With TTC, it's 75-150 days of work, with best possible tools. Definitely viable.
I am against paying with obligations in a fight because they will come back to haunt us, but we can afford craft.
Assuming no new crisis, we should have at least 3 AP next turn that we can spend: one we are spending on kakuri this turn, one we are spending on preparing for Mab this turn, and one from coffee we'll get next turn. At 3 AP we could most likely clear the debt to Odin, if it's only craft. 1 AP is roughly equivalent to five days of work. 3 AP is equivalent to 15 days of work. With TTC, it's 75-150 days of work, with best possible tools. Definitely viable.
I am against paying with obligations in a fight because they will come back to haunt us, but we can afford craft.
And we have a tie. Nice to see such lively discussion.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 13, 2023 at 4:42 AM, finished with 111 posts and 26 votes.
[X] Plan Brass Tacks
-[X] Offer:
—[X] Money 2 points
-[X] Receive:
—[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
-[X] A rune-caster 2 points
[X]Plan Sledgehammer -[X]Offer: 9 points --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) --[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points --[X] Forging baneful weapons for his einherjar 1 point --[X] Crafting vehicles worthy to carry them in battle in this age of iron and flame 2 points -[X]Receive: 9 points
-[X] A rune-caster 2 points -[X][Valkyries] Gard herself 3 points -[X][Einherjar] Frontline squad 1 point (5 Riflemen): x3 -[X][Einherjar] Heavy squad 1 point (1 Heavy Machine Gunner and 1 Mortal Team): x1
[X] Plan The forges of war
-[X] Offer: --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) --[X] Your skillful craft in: ---[X] Forging baneful weapons for his einherjar 1 point ---[X] Crafting vehicles worthy to carry them in battle in this age of iron and flame 2 points
-[X] Receive: --[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times) ---[X] 2X A warrior 1 Point ---[X] A rune-caster 2 points --[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times) ---[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
[X]Plan Green fire
-[x]Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) -[X] Share your wisdom regarding --[X] The flame that burns upon your blade 3 points -[x] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times) --[x] 3 warriors 3 Point --[X] A rune-caster 2 points
[X] Plan Minimum AP
-[X] Offer: --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) --[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points -[X] Assistance
—[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times) —-[X] A rune-caster 2 points —-[X] Gard herself 3 points —[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times) —-[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
I still feel like we should be able to win without any help and the fact that people argued against bringing the ghouls before seems to indicate that you all agreed.
The situation has changed since the time we discussed not taking the ghouls, and we weren't taking them partially because we feared exactly what's happening: right now, the enemy has hostages, you want overwhelming force to make sure you can rescue them as fast as possible and fight at the same time.
We had enough that we felt good for a brawl, and hostage rescue really isn't the same.
I am well aware of that. On second thought the craft time might not really be an issue. If we get our Kingdom we can likely get some cool stuff out of there.
I am well aware of that. On second thought the craft time might not really be an issue. If we get our Kingdom we can likely get some cool stuff out of there.
It certainly will, if we take advanced technology. This is the reason I am not pushing for doing crafting now. It'll all become obsolete the moment we get our kingdom. Because yeah, we are an Exalt with craft charms. Assuming we go for Fivefold courts, millenia old smith-monks who venerate us a deity, with access to magical materials and millenia-old enchanters who also venerate us as a goddess would certainly allow us to make better equipment than we can now in our family's garage out of scrap iron.
1)The first time we see the Einherjar in canon, they were performing a combat extraction of Dresden, Ramirez, the Raith House nobility and a whole passel of human thralls from the Raith Deeps in the teeth of an attack of uberghouls and an unknown wizard at the climax of White Night. Dresden explicitly recognizes some of them in Changes chapter 21 when he visits Odin at home.
They are precisely experienced at this sort of operation where necessary.
===
2)For one thing, stuff we make says nothing about how we function.
Furthermore, as far as we know, Odin has no reason to believe that Molly's artifice works any different from that of any other magical craftsman, besides being much higher quality. That was true as of Gard's Interlude, when we saw her report to Marcone .
Molly doesnt have Exalted Crafting yet.
And if staring at artifice revealed the secrets of the crafter, the svartalfar would not have the reputation for doing business with the Norse pantheon. Or with anyone, really. What makes Molly special is that she is apparently able to build modern gear to supernatural standards. Like we did in front of Gard with the EMP bombs.
I expect him to gather as much intel as he can without giving offense; he is an information broker.
But he isnt going to burn a relationship with someone
===
3)I agree that their value systems are different. Thats why things like weregild are considered acceptable ways of officially settling disputes, or expiating for the deaths of others. But that actually plays to our benefit here. A lot of things here happen on trust, because there are few if any legally enforceable options if the other guy chooses to screw you.
I mean, reputation matters, even for outright villains.
One of the goals of Mab's revenge in Skin Game was to destroy Nicodemus Archleone's reputation for keeping his word, which helped break his power. The quote is:
Mab was inside, seated at one end of the table, her expression distant and implacable, her back ramrod-straight. Her dress and her hair were both pitch-black, as were her eyes, all the way across her sclera. She was here, then, in her aspect of Judgment.
People die when Mab shows up in black. The last time I'd seen her in that outfit, two Faerie Queens had bled out onto the soil of Demonreach.
Seated at her right hand, wearing a charcoal-grey suit, was Gentleman Johnnie Marcone, Baron of Chicago under the Unseelie Accords-and made so, at least in part, by my own signature. There might have been slightly more silver at his temples than the last time I'd seen him, but it only made him look more distinguished. Otherwise, he looked exactly as he always did: calm, alert, impeccably groomed, and as merciful as a lawn mower's blade.
"You could have told me from the beginning," I said to Mab.
She regarded me with flat black eyes and tilted her head, a curiously birdlike gesture.
"You were balancing the scales with Nicodemus," I said. "But it was never about paying back a favor. And it wasn't about foiling his scheme. This was full-scale political vengeance."
Very, very slowly, Mab lifted her hands and placed them flat on the table in front of her. Her nails were black and looked sharp enough to slice silk.
"You set Nicodemus up from the very beginning," I said. "You, Hades, and Marcone."
Marcone tilted his head from one side to the other and said nothing.
"It's the only thing that makes sense," I said. "Why you sent Molly away-because she'd have known you were up to something. Why the plans to Marcone's vault were available. Why the bodies got cleaned up, and why the cops didn't crawl all over this thing when it was done. Hell, they're probably spinning the shoot-out and the explosions as some kind of terrorist attack. And I'll bet you anything that the squires found themselves offered a new job, now that their demigod has fallen from grace. Right?"
A ghost of a smile haunted Marcone's lips.
"Nicodemus violated your Accords," I said to Mab. "He kidnapped Marcone. He abducted the emissary appointed under the Accords. This was your payback. You arranged for him to get the details about Hades' vault." I turned to Marcone. "You built your vault specifically to create the link so that a Way could be opened there. All so you could set Nicodemus up, years after he wronged you both." I met Mab's unwavering gaze and said, "And you dealt him the worst pain you could imagine. You took away his daughter. No, you did even worse-you made him do it himself."
Neither of them said anything.
But Mab's raven black nails sank a fraction of an inch into the wood of the table, and her void black eyes glittered.
"Now he's lost his lieutenant," I continued. "He's lost his squires. When word gets out of his treachery, he'll lose his name. No one will want to work with him. No one will deal with him. From where you're standing, you've done worse than kill him. You've wounded him, strangled his power, and left him to suffer."
A long moment of silence passed.
I turned to Marcone. "And what did you get out of it? You got to build the vault, and to secure the clientele who use it. My money says that Hades was your first depositor. That when he made that gesture of trust in you, others followed his example-and that now you're holding in trust a treasure trove like none in the supernatural world. And if you got a little payback on Nicodemus as a side effect of that, you didn't mind it at all. And you'll have plenty of money to pay to have him hounded down, now that he's been weakened."
Marcone's eyes, the exact green shade of old dollar bills, focused pleasantly on me. Still, he said nothing.
Then Mab finally spoke, her voice sepulchral. "Do you have a point, my Knight?"
"I wanted you to know that I knew," I said. Then I turned to Marcone. "There were people involved in the robbery. People who aren't otherwise involved in this affair."
"People who violated my territory, nonetheless," Marcone said quietly.
Odin's reputation for fair dealing is a foundational aspect of how he does business. Thats why even enemies like Ethniu show respect. Dude isnt going to wreck a four thousand year old reputation because of one Infernal.
We're a very Big Deal and will grow bigger yet, but we arent a bankrupt yourself problem .
===
4)The counter argument is that its instructive to see how a person treats you when they think you have insufficient power or influence to react to being treated badly.
As opposed to showing up as head of state of a nation.
1) Fair enough, though I don't agree on them being a requirement.
2) Every tradition works slightly differently in a lot of ways, even if it doesn't give you any profound secrets it still tells you a lot about the nature of the crafter.
See Molly's potion making for an example. If Harry and Molly both made the speed potion IC a skilled observer would note that one operates as a pseudo construct thing and the other uses a tradition popularized by Ebenezer.
There's also the matter of how broad the tasks are. He isn't asking us to use a specific tool, he's asking for something to get done and then seeing how we do it. Super crafting rolls, bound spirits, enchantments, and alchemical super material are all very different approaches to handle the same problems.
It's not the most critical secret to keep, but it seems more likely to me that he wants a sample to show him in what ways we're superhuman and how that's expressed than that he wants a one off vehicle that will probably be a pain to maintain because it's all custom and the only one of its model they have.
3) Note that Mab and Marcone also have reputations for fair dealing to uphold, but still managed that whole scheme. Much like the fey's inability to lie, trusting that people dealing fairly means that they can't still screw you is a mistake. They just won't be overt about it.
I don't think he'd set us up, but I do believe he'd milk the situation for all it's worth and that we could have issues that stem from that. Debts getting called in at inconvenient times that obligate you to do stuff you'd never otherwise contemplate happens all the time in the DF, and most of the time it's perfectly fair by the standards of the players involved.
4) I'd rather not learn that lesson by putting ourselves in a position to get burned and seeing what happens.
It's worth noting that Harry and Anawn both think staying as far away as possible from this deal is a good idea.
If we really need a higher buy plan, then something spending the 5 points of material goods is better than 9 points including service based debt.
Dropping 2 squads of riflemen and the now unnecessary backup runecaster covered by Gard's presence in uju32's plan would get us the elements that actually support the extraction to a noteworthy degree without nearly the same exposure.
Adhoc vote count started by Acolyte on Mar 13, 2023 at 9:04 AM, finished with 121 posts and 27 votes.
[X]Plan Sledgehammer -[X]Offer: 9 points --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) --[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points --[X] Forging baneful weapons for his einherjar 1 point --[X] Crafting vehicles worthy to carry them in battle in this age of iron and flame 2 points -[X]Receive: 9 points
-[X] A rune-caster 2 points -[X][Valkyries] Gard herself 3 points -[X][Einherjar] Frontline squad 1 point (5 Riflemen): x3 -[X][Einherjar] Heavy squad 1 point (1 Heavy Machine Gunner and 1 Mortal Team): x1
[X] Plan Brass Tacks
-[X] Offer:
—[X] Money 2 points
-[X] Receive:
—[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
-[X] A rune-caster 2 points
[X] Plan The forges of war
-[X] Offer: --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) --[X] Your skillful craft in: ---[X] Forging baneful weapons for his einherjar 1 point ---[X] Crafting vehicles worthy to carry them in battle in this age of iron and flame 2 points
-[X] Receive: --[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times) ---[X] 2X A warrior 1 Point ---[X] A rune-caster 2 points --[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times) ---[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
[X]Plan Green fire
-[x]Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) -[X] Share your wisdom regarding --[X] The flame that burns upon your blade 3 points -[x] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times) --[x] 3 warriors 3 Point --[X] A rune-caster 2 points
[X] Plan Minimum AP
-[X] Offer: --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success) --[X]Aid Monoc Security in one battle of their choice[Lydia + Molly together]: 4 Points -[X] Assistance
—[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times) —-[X] A rune-caster 2 points —-[X] Gard herself 3 points —[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times) —-[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
[X] Plan Brass Tacks
-[X] Offer:
—[X] Money 2 points
-[X] Receive:
—[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
-[X] A rune-caster 2 points
[X] Plan The forges of war
-[X] Offer: --[X] Money 2 Point (1 Base +1 From Legenday Social Roll Success)
--[X] Your skillful craft in:
---[X] Forging baneful weapons for his einherjar 1 point
---[X] Crafting vehicles worthy to carry them in battle in this age of iron and flame 2 points
-[X] Receive: --[X] The aid of one of Odin's valkyries, the Choosers of the Slain who have walked battlefields uncounted (Can be chosen up to seven times)
---[X] 2X A warrior 1 Point
---[X] A rune-caster 2 points
--[X] Einherjar: These warriors have died once, a glorious death with drew the eye of the Wanderer they wander the world still honing their skills until Ragnarök comes (Can be taken up to 7 times)
---[X] Frontline squad 1 point ( 5 Riflemen)
