Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

If Molly is interested in returning to the original nature of her Exaltation in some way, or simply redeeming the Hellish aspects of her power, investigating the way that the Wan Xian became the Wan Kuei, and how the Wan Kuei try to elevate themselves from their fallen state may be applicable.
Well, in terms of "scrubbing the thin layer of shit that is Yomi Wan from the antediluvian glory that are Primordial Principles" we are... Well, we seems to be doing that simply by buying more charms and getting a lot of sux on charm activations.

In terms of unlocking more charmsets, or even Solar Charmset, Solaroid Exaltations can do that. There are even charms like Primordial Emulation Principle and Unconquered Hero's Faith, the latter of which actually got ported to ExWoD.

DP also mentioned unlocking charmsets as a possibility a couple of times, so yeah. Prolly valid to pursue.
 
That's a good point. I would still want to try and develop something to be an alternative to "off with their heads" treatment of warlocks.
Throwing a warlock in our maggot pit also works. Mercy in Servitude will keep them from being tempted by black magic and fear of us will keep them on the straight and narrow. And it doesn't actually seem more horrifying then soul surgery.
I still take issue the the rest though. Partially because I was taking this to be equating them the solars specifically, and printing out more of those than the unconquered sun and autochthon could manage together would be hugely significant and strange for a world that's supposed to be degrading.
They wouldn't be Solars or even Exalted. Exaltations leave on the person's death so under this theory they would be people that used to be exalted which given how Exaltation are picked means very impressive people, but it's possible that a single Solar Exaltation might have been used by hundreds of even thousands. In fact lots of Exalted manage to get themselves killed within the first few weeks.
 
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Then it propably wasn't the Skavis that gave the first impulse.

Could be that either some Elder Wan Kuei or a Yama King has a way of detecting an Exaltation being unleashed and they were looking for us since we left Arctis Tor.
Could be that something noticed us messing around on a Dragon's Nest by monitoring the Leylines (one could lead to Asia?), that would have been some longer time ago.
Could be that something picked up on the unleashed power when we first used our Shintai.

Generally, we are playing with really big amounts of power and if there's anyone who can notice that from a continent away, be it by some deeper understanding, by a magical device or by monitoring the leylines, it's propably a Bhodisvatta or a Yama King.
I could buy one looking for us, but the story we got implied that the thousand hells themselves barely knew what they had.

The ley line thing is ludicrous though. For one we haven't even really done more than stand in its presence yet. For another the amount of information involved in that is so high picking out specifics would be very difficult even if we were.

We haven't been the most subtle recently, but the level of detail available to the general public isn't exactly specific enough to pick us out from a higher Devil, some sort of empowered caster, or other half human entity.

It's possible they simply knew everything and were scrambling to find us from the beginning, but if that's the case they'd also have known enough to work this out significantly sooner.

They wouldn't be Solars or even Exalted. Exaltations leave on the person's death so under this theory they would be people that used to be exalted which given how Exaltation are picked means very impressive people, but it's possible that a single Solar Exaltation might have been used by hundreds of even thousands. In fact lots of Exalted manage to get themselves killed within the first few weeks.
What do you mean? There aren't any exaltations out picking people, and haven't been for ages. Unless you're suggesting they come back from people who would have exalted but didn't.

I can see the argument there, but then the question is how relevant that connection is to the exalted specifically. Immense willpower and something that makes a mortal stand out as heroic isn't exactly some esoteric property only the exaltations would be concerned with.

Jades are still actively being "born" and the canon explanation for why there aren't more of them around the planet is that they got outcompeted by other supernaturals for various reasons in other areas of the world.

The book also heavily implies that regular exaltations aren't involved by explicitly addressing it as a special case:

So, finally, the salient question: Can the Exalted rise again after death as the Hungry Dead? In a word, yes. If they meet the usual criteria – a soul sufficiently laden with bad karma to draw it into the greedy talons of the Yama Kings or some other malignant force, the spiritual resolve to break out of Hell – they can crawl back into their corpse and go walking about as one of the damned. They retain no special powers or other me- chanics differentiating them from any other vampire.

If being chosen first was needed then this passage wouldn't make sense.
 
Prolly later-day Terrestrial Exigents, tbh. Maybe someone in heavens decided that passing awesome elemental powers through bloodlines isn't such a great idea.

Sadly, Exigent lore is primarily E3 stuff, so I can't really comment terribly much, there. From what I heard about Flame of Exigence, if heaven collectively - Incarna and all other gods - decided to work out an alternative to Dragonblooded, they prolly could manage, if they are ready to diminish themselves very much.

Isidoros did something like that, apparently. In ExWoD, at least.
 
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I could buy one looking for us, but the story we got implied that the thousand hells themselves barely knew what they had.

The ley line thing is ludicrous though. For one we haven't even really done more than stand in its presence yet. For another the amount of information involved in that is so high picking out specifics would be very difficult even if we were.

We haven't been the most subtle recently, but the level of detail available to the general public isn't exactly specific enough to pick us out from a higher Devil, some sort of empowered caster, or other half human entity.

It's possible they simply knew everything and were scrambling to find us from the beginning, but if that's the case they'd also have known enough to work this out significantly sooner.

Just because one does not know the composition of gunpowder does not mean you cannot see the flash when it goes off. A lot of people have eyes and for those who dare to look upon it with sight that is more than sight its themes are if not obvious at least comprehensible.
 
Technically all ley lines lead to all other ley lines, it's a network, but any ripple in the power fades with distance in space just as it does in time
Using principles of Ancient Sorcery and the language that was used to program reality, we constructed a ritual invoking the True Name of a Neverborn. Little more than a month later we forged a god using our exalted power and authority. The first new god of a new age. The first member of a new celestial hierarchy, quite possibly. Not the greatest one, but the first. I am fairly sure there has to be at least one seer somewhere writing "the Monster is Here" in their own blood.
 
[X] As you are, no need to spook the spooks
-[X] All Thing Betray, using willpower
-[x] Etiquette Excellency
-[X] STUNT: Composed and regal, you move towards where the envoy of Jade Court is waiting for you, and your senses sharpen, expand, the shadows in the mists coiling to reveal to their mistress the hidden details of the world. You pass between a pair of trees mid-tact of the music permeating the area, momentarily hidden from sight of everyone present by happenstance and design, and when you are seen once again, your sword is there, a masterstroke of your outfit, making it clear that you are not someone to be trifled with. In your mind, Usum feeds you the lines appropriate for a first meeting with a foreign power.



Going with Yog.

Invite them to dance. Confidence, not needing to flex, is the greatest flex of them all. Are you more scared of a man who walks into a gunfight wielding a gun or a man who walks into a gunfight with a glass of expensive wine and not a care in the world?
 
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yeah, if they personally show up - sure. sending some running monkey on a mission? as I said - sus.
though I do like modern wan kuei better. pity WW dropped them from new editions - there are just a few vague mentions.

High Enlightenment Wan Kuei sending out minions is very much in theme. It's almost Dharmically required for the most enlightened to remain in seclusion and act through their pupils as far as I can tell.

Particularly for the Resplendent Cranes, for whom bureaucracy is almost literally a virtue.

This is inaccurate.
The Wan Xian were cursed because they began to predate on the very people and societies they were meant to protect agsinst the Yomi Kings. Not because of general impact.

Their sins also involved pitting the Henyoyaki, the protectors against the natural world against each other, subverting and preying on the Hsien (angels/celestial messengers), and causing natural disasters as side effects of their internecine wars.

It wasn't just predating on mortals.

Yes, Im aware that the Kueijin are a lot more active with spirits than other vamps.

However. This is Chicago. Not the Yangtze Valley, not Southeast Asia, not India.
Their setting up information collection here unnoticed is quite a feat to pull off, especially since Lydia has been immersing herself in the local community. And before that Arawn was active here for almost a year.

They have the capability to develop various kinds of magic that can help, including divination magic.

Fair enough on the timelines, if I'm in fact mixing things up.

I still take issue the the rest though. Partially because I was taking this to be equating them the solars specifically, and printing out more of those than the unconquered sun and autochthon could manage together would be hugely significant and strange for a world that's supposed to be degrading.

Even as terrestrials it's odd, because those aren't easy to set up either. Dragonblooded are technically the work of two unbroken primordials, just being weaker on their own doesn't mean making something like an exaltation at scale should be simple.

You've got a point with alchemicals, but they're the direct work of autobot himself in his home territory, so I wouldn't call them prime examples of what lesser craftsmen can do.

The liminals are an excellent counter example, but even they are still very rare and source their exaltations from something left over from richer ages.

I would also say it was a significant downgrade. The Wan Xian could draw Qi from many sources, but didn't require it to survive. The curse that degraded them forces them to stick to drawing power from the living, and they can starve without it.

It's also worth noting that the ExWoD book treats them as a species of supernatural comparable with other types of night people, going so far as to give explanations like this for why they aren't all over the place:

Alchemical are the indirect work of Autocthon, with mortals implementing protocols he left behind. The process to make the Wan Xian were, IIRC, created by the August Personage of Jade and implemented by the gods/personifications of Yin and Yang.

Seeing as the August Personage of Jade is basically the Chinese version of big G God, we should expect a process made by such as being to be capable of creating celestial exalts, analagous to Alchemicals.

And while Exaltation shards are incapable of diminishment, no one has said the same is true for different kinds of making Exalts. Compare a dragonblooded with legendary breeding to one without. It's quite obvious they've been diminished and received nothing in return.

Note that Wan Kuei are fully capable of eating spirits, both those that represent items or concepts or the physical world or ghosts while in the spirit worlds. If they don't want to eat mortals they don't need to after quite a limited amount of development, or if a basically skilled teacher takes them into the spirit worlds to hunt.

The key thing is that Wan Xian are thematically exalts. Mortals blessed with special powers after being found worth of being exalted into a greater state of being by a higher order entity. And the Wan Kuei are an extension of that with greater revised acceptance criteria.
 
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Alchemical are the indirect work of Autocthon, with mortals implementing protocols he left behind.
I thought so too, but no. Well, not exactly. Autochton is using mortals as avatars of sorts to channel his power to make exaltations:
Quotes from E2 Autochtonia book:
All stopped as, in the final years of his conscious
presence, Autochthon made his will known. He sent his
Divine Ministers to each of the cities, where they gathered
up the five most talented craftsmen and carried them off
into the Reaches. There, the assorted crafters underwent
holy instruction, and the secrets of Exaltation were blazed

into their awareness. Autochthon extruded the first eight
soulgems, soon to become the most important artifacts in
Autochthonia, and each bore the soul of one of the eight
heroes who had led the cities.
Soon, the craftsmen returned to their people, and the
first Alchemical Exalted came with them. Satisfied that his
human population would be well protected by their immortal
Champions, the Great Maker slipped away into his millennial
slumber, where he remains today.
EXALTATION
The secret of Alchemical Exaltation is jealously guarded
by the Five Magnificent Sodalities of Penultimate Truth and
Intransigent Gospel, each of which possesses only a fifth of
the knowledge required to bring forth Champions of the
Machine God. Only by working together at the vats may new
Chosen be imbued with life and Exaltation, and only then
by unanimous vote of a National Tripartite Assembly.
The Pious Harvesters of the Hallowed Flesh know how
to create and process the alchemical broth in which the
bodies of the Exalted are cultured and catalyzed.
The Glorious Luminors of the Brilliant Rapture keep
the secret of the temperatures and cycles to which the broth
must be subjected for it to imbue its mystic benefits to the
nascent Exalt.
The Prolific Scholars of the Furnace Transcendent
understand the complex Essence technologies of the vari-
ous implants and Charms that grant the Alchemicals their
superhuman might, and it is they who forge those wonders
that will initially be incorporated into an Exalt's body.
The Meticulous Surgeons of the Body Electric are
trained in the all-important art of molding the flesh of the
Alchemical Exalted. They pack clay and wax and grease
around the implants of the Scholars, but this body is useless
without the Essence-catalyzing broth of the Harvesters or
the proper cultivation of the Luminors.
Finally, the Illustrious Conductors of the Consecrated
Veins alone understand how to properly affix a soulgem to
the Essence-infused frame the other Sodalities have crafted
and prepared.
These steps are not undertaken independently. Over the
course of eight months, the five Sodalities work together to
perform a complex ritual that joins enormous quantities of
the magical materials with exactingly machined parts, rare
clays and precisely brewed chemical concoctions to produce a
crude approximation of a human form. Next, in a painstaking
procedure requiring eight days to properly complete, a flawless
diamond soulgem is attached to the figure's brow. The valves
to the Exalt's Essence reservoir are then opened, and for the
next eight hours the Alchemical's Essence supply is ritually
purified with repeated straining and efficacious prayers until
no contaminants remain. Finally, an elaborate prayer lasting
eight minutes joins magical materials, clay, brass, Essence
and soul together into a living being. The Alchemical's eyes
open, her personality catalyzes and solidifies, and she rises
from the vats to begin her service to her nation.
Alchemical Demiurge (Abomination): More than mere
combinations of souls and N/A-level artifacts, Autoch-
thon's Chosen are Exalted. The Essence technology that
enables the fusion of their spirits and bodies to create an
Exalt rather than a mere soul-bearing robot is as compli-
cated as any other Celestial Exaltation. The only being in
the Realm of Brass and Shadows who truly understands how
to create an Alchemical Exalt is Autochthon himself.
But the autonomic processes of his Design regularly
examine and select qualified individuals—these days,
always members of the five Sodalities with some form of
Craft rated at ••••+—and bestow this mutation upon
them. It transforms the mind and soul rather than the
body, creating a connection to the slumbering genius
of the Great Maker and allowing the Demiurge to share
Autochthon's nigh-unlimited cognitive bandwidth when
learning how to create Alchemical Exalted. This is how
a human mind comprehends and implements one-fifth
of the Alchemical Exaltation formula, and how a human
body's labors become a direct channel for the power of
the Machine God.
In his wisdom (and anger, and fear), Autochthon
bequeathed the secret of Exaltation to the mortals dwell-
ing within his world-body… and none other. Not only
are Exalted forbidden from ever obtaining this mutation
by any means, but even God-Blooded are never consid-
ered valid candidates for Demiurge status. Attempts to
interrogate a Demiurge or read his mind are doomed to
failure—the mortal himself only fractionally comprehends
the work of which he is capable, with the vast majority
of his knowledge distributed throughout the crystalline
Core of Autochthon. Likewise, watching a group of
Sodalts at work creating an Alchemical is as fruitless as
observing Lytek polishing and recycling an Exaltation
(a task that was undertaken hundreds of times over the
course of the First Age, to little benefit). The process is
merely a technological ritual permitting the Great Maker's
animating power to flow through the Demiurges and into
the nascent Exalt.
Ultimately, a Twilight who wants to create Al-
chemicals will have to force mortals to do so, probably at
sword point. The Great Maker, in the moments when he
was able to bring himself to contemplate such a terrible
eventuality, considered that theoretical Solar's endless
frustration to be just punishment for the betrayal of the
Mountain Folk.
 
Seeing as the August Personage of Jade is basically the Chinese version of big G God, we should expect a process made by such as being to be capable of creating celestial exalts, analagous to Alchemicals.
I don't buy it. Not every bit of lore should be taken literally or we'll have hundreds of almighty creators who made the world. We'd also have a stupid number of exaltations, and the setting would look nothing like what it does.

An entire species on level with celestial exalts is ridiculous, and doesn't fit with how the setting as a whole is laid out.

It certainly doesn't match how the jades are implemented in narrative or mechanics either.

I'm not sure what you're arguing with the dragon blooded either. Is or isn't the curse a downgrade, because you're flipping positions here.In any case, getting to keep prior merits after exalting isn't exactly the same as being made lesser in a base sense. Which is what the legendary background stuff reads as to me.

The spirit eating stuff isn't really relevant to my point either. They went from being able to regenerate their supernatural resource from whatever they wanted to obligate predation until they get developed enough to use workarounds.

At a more general level, how do you square people throwing an order of magnitude more celestials around than the age of legends used to kill primordials to kill off at a significantly lower order problem in a narrative of diminishment?

Or them still being around, and as far as your argument appears to be going potentially as strong as ever, without doing anything?

You're trying to argue that the solar deliberative but worse would be a quiet neighbor.
 
These are the kuei-jin analogues?


If so, the kuei-jin might also be better known in WoD lore as 'fancy revenants' so they might have business here of a damned -feral- soul 'escaping' a hell they want to pick up to induct into their cult. It's the only way they reproduce.
 
I don't think anyone would seriously say that the Wan Xian were Celestial Tier, even if they were some weird kind of Exalted?

We know many of their Disciplines from Blood and Silk. Those elemental Shintai the early Kuei-Jin had and that are stated to be the Wan Xian's abilities before they became the blood/bone/flesh versions of the modern age are nice, but they are certainly not on the level of Solars.

The Exaltation-knock-off theory sounds plausible.

Maybe, big maybe, the August Personage with the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen could have created a large but limited and even for Terrestrial Exalted weak species of Exigents?
That sounds possible at least.
 
These are the kuei-jin analogues?


If so, the kuei-jin might also be better known in WoD lore as 'fancy revenants' so they might have business here of a damned -feral- soul 'escaping' a hell they want to pick up to induct into their cult. It's the only way they reproduce.
Yes. Holden explicitly states that he dropped that name for being silly and racist sounding babble, but they're the same entities.

kUei-jin
This game chooses to omit the term "Kuei-jin" as a racist and frankly embarrassing relic of the mid- 1990s when Vampire didn't know better yet. It's a nonsense-word which I've never seen do any- thing but make speakers of the languages being smashed together while someone yells "Now kiss!" visibly cringe. Instead Exalted vs World of Darkness prefers to describe the vampires of Asia as the Hungry Dead, or simply "vampires" within the scope of this section. The Chinese-originating title of Wan Kuei has also seeped into the lexicon of surrounding communities of the Hungry Dead, and is sometimes used as well.
cite
 
Wan keui almost certainly were some sort of exigent exalted. Their entire lore makes sense from that perspective.


But that doesn't mean the ones that come back are at the same level. Because beginer once certainly aren't even weaker exalted levels. But through philosophical enlightenment they can certainly get on exalted levels. Because only 3 bodhisattva were fighting an Vampire Ante fairly equally. And thats massively out the league of any non combat speced high essence solars.

Also wan keui don't necessarily need to drink people, irrc then they learn to draw chi from the spirit world at high enlightenment and can make jade talisman that can collect and store chi for those vampires that haven't learned the skill, thats rare obviously but its there.


Also holdens take on the wan keui isn't canon, dude is just massively wrong there. The reason they only exist in asia is because people from there go the thousand hells while other cultures have their own afterlives, and fucking wraith exist. So dude is wrong on two counts.
 
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[X] As you are, no need to spook the spooks
-[X] All Thing Betray, using willpower
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] STUNT: Composed and regal, you move towards where the envoy of Jade Court is waiting for you, and your senses sharpen, expand, the shadows in the mists coiling to reveal to their mistress the hidden details of the world. You pass between a pair of trees mid-tact of the music permeating the area, momentarily hidden from sight of everyone present by happenstance and design, and when you are seen once again, your sword is there, a masterstroke of your outfit, making it clear that you are not someone to be trifled with. In your mind, Usum feeds you the lines appropriate for a first meeting with a foreign power.
The stunt is Bad.

1)You're carrying an unbound weapon at a diplomatic function.
Which will unnecessarily perturb the ghosts this dance was made for.

2)You are giving free intel to a Jade Court vampire.
Is there ANY reason why we should be waving our Demon Weapon 5 under their nose?
 
The stunt is Bad.

1)You're carrying an unbound weapon at a diplomatic function.
Which will unnecessarily perturb the ghosts this dance was made for.

2)You are giving free intel to a Jade Court vampire.
Is there ANY reason why we should be waving our Demon Weapon 5 under their nose?
This. So, so much this.

It really doesn't make sense, @Yog.
 
Wan keui almost certainly were some sort of exigent exalted. Their entire lore makes sense from that perspective.


But that doesn't mean the ones that come back are at the same level. Because beginer once certainly aren't even weaker exalted levels. But through philosophical enlightenment they can certainly get on exalted levels. Because only 3 bodhisattva were fighting an Vampire Ante fairly equally. And thats massively out the league of any non combat speced high essence solars.

Also wan keui don't necessarily need to drink people, irrc then they learn to draw chi from the spirit world at high enlightenment and can make jade talisman that can collect and store chi for those vampires that haven't learned the skill, thats rare obviously but its there.


Also holdens take on the wan keui isn't canon, dude is just massively wrong there. The reason they only exist in asia is because people from there go the thousand hells while other cultures have their own afterlives, and fucking wraith exist. So dude is wrong on two counts.
You are mixing up your canons, conflating ExWoD canon with WoD canon.

1)Thats not true.
The Ravnos Antediluvian was attacked by 3x Kueijin boddhitsava leading an army of kueijin as well as a host of supporting forces, including an entire sept of werewolves. It was eventually killed with strategic weapons by the Technocracy.

By contrast, ExWoD stats antediluvians as a very high end but doable encounter for a Circle of Celestials.


2)Wan Kuei need to eat people until they reach around Dharma 6.
Mortal flesh at 0, the fresher the better. Blood from 1-4. Breath from 5+. Environmental chi from 6+.Which is the point at which they can subsist off environmental chi.

Needless to say there arent many Dharma 6+, nor do they have the interest, or frankly, the capability to spend their time drawing environmental chi to feed lessers.
Furthermore, there's entire Dharma whose entire modus operandi is


3)Holden speaks for ExWoD. ExWoD canon =/= WoD canon.
 
1)Thats not true.
The Ravnos Antediluvian was attacked by 3x Kueijin boddhitsava leading an army of kueijin as well as a host of supporting forces, including an entire sept of werewolves. It was eventually killed with strategic weapons by the Technocracy.

By contrast, ExWoD stats antediluvians as a very high end but doable encounter for a Circle of Celestials.
I think there is a text that describes what was happening in that fight and those forces couldn't even approch the ante. It was constantly spawing illusion monsters that they were holding at bay while the bodhisattva fought the actually ante.

It was in the world of darkness thread on SB so i could find it easily enough if you need sites.


Exwod stats are massively nerfed versions of those guys. If you are talking about the ones at the end where it suggest using ancient sorcery as their extra powers.
Needless to say there arent many Dharma 6+, nor do they have the interest, or frankly, the capability to spend their time drawing environmental chi to feed lessers.
Furthermore, there's entire Dharma whose entire modus operandi is
The talisman can absorb the chi at low gauntlet levels i think so the high dharma ones aren't going to be the ones doing it.
3)Holden speaks for ExWoD. ExWoD canon =/= WoD canon.
Holden is literally just writting fanfiction about the actual world of darkness, of course their lore take priority. Holden himself refers to actual books in the EXwod write up, so the intent is almost certainly that those books are true.
 
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