Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

We're thirty two xp away from being able to deploy a billions strong army of wardevils using magitech military grade weaponry against other Nevernever powers.

36 XP.

And we wouldn't be able to deploy them easily and absolutely not in these numbers, even in the nevernever.

Also, our hell isn't chosen yet, for all we know, every voters will decide to go for an empty hell with no natural inhabitants, sure it's extremely unlikely, but the specifics are not yet decided, including population and how fanatically loyal they are… or aren't.

I also disagree with treating our citizens as interchangeable soldiers like that, the main interest I have in Yog's idea of a hell is that they have a life and culture, their science and view on life is what I want, their soldiers would just be a bonus.
 
36 XP.

And we wouldn't be able to deploy them easily and absolutely not in these numbers, even in the nevernever.

Also, our hell isn't chosen yet, for all we know, every voters will decide to go for an empty hell with no natural inhabitants, sure it's extremely unlikely, but the specifics are not yet decided, including population and how fanatically loyal they are… or aren't.

I also disagree with treating our citizens as interchangeable soldiers like that, the main interest I have in Yog's idea of a hell is that they have a life and culture, their science and view on life is what I want, their soldiers would just be a bonus.

They're going to be devils. They're not autonomous people in a really meaningful sense but an extension of the Infernal themself.

And we can choose a very sub-optimal hell that will massively reduce the scope of what we'll ever be able to do to make the world a better place, or we can choose one that allows us to have the kind of impact.

And as for deployment, I don't think there are any limits on moving around the Nevernever beyond other entities stopping you. It's much harder to stop a the combined military of a hyperpower an orders of magnitude larger than anything known in history than it is most Nevernever groups, particularly when they could deploy WMD with little fear of MAD.

Infernal Exalted are almost completely dependent on their Hell to operate as the Solaroid Exalted they should be. The fact that they're a nation as well a person is what gives them their power.
 
DP: "As far as I can see there is no RAW for letting demons out, though it seems clear unleashing armies is very much not intended, I'll have to think how letting demons and mortals out works, maybe we will stick with 20 at a time to start."
"I don't want to make any snap promisses. We'll see when you actually have the charm"
Alratan:
We're thirty two xp away from being able to deploy a billions strong army of wardevils using magitech military grade weaponry against other Nevernever powers.

We have strong limitations deploying our devils on Earth, but against any group of supernaturals with significant presence in the Nevernever, we can easily be a massive strategic threat, even if we just have them squat on the Way and shoot anyone we disapprove of with heavy artillery.
And as for deployment, I don't think there are any limits on moving around the Nevernever beyond other entities stopping you. It's much harder to stop a the combined military of a hyperpower an orders of magnitude larger than anything known in history than it is most Nevernever groups, particularly when they could deploy WMD with little fear of MAD.
I think you have vastly exaggerated the deployability of wardevils and the commitment of the QM.
 
Infernal Exalted are almost completely dependent on their Hell to operate as the Solaroid Exalted they should be. The fact that they're a nation as well a person is what gives them their power.
The inner hell is just a tacked on idea that gets zero support for doing anything outside of itself. Their is no in universe way to get people out of the inner hell that where born/made by it.
 
The inner hell is just a tacked on idea that gets zero support for doing anything outside of itself. Their is no in universe way to get people out of the inner hell that where born/made by it.

I will say this much, there will be some way to take people and stuff out of your Hell, otherwise all it is good for is being a sanctuary and is that is the case an extra-dimensional box would no just as well. If this is going to be an entire realm of existence with its own people, history, mores etc... than it should matter to the rest of the story.
 
They're going to be devils. They're not autonomous people in a really meaningful sense but an extension of the Infernal themself.

Have you actually looked at the options and what people wants?

-One: the population can and probably will contain humans, not just devils.

-Two: the hell's existence is retroactive, the inhabitants are their own people not just extensions of us, and shouldn't be treated as such.

-Three: we are playing as Molly Carpenter, not random sociopath number 164737271, she won't accept treating them as mindless automatons anyway.

-Four: as someone else pointed out, we have no current reasons to think that we actually can deploy them that easily even in the nevernever, best not to plan around it.

The inner hell is just a tacked on idea that gets zero support for doing anything outside of itself. Their is no in universe way to get people out of the inner hell that where born/made by it.

Yeah, the simple fact that there is no canon way to actually use them for anything but dumping ennemies really is a waste and do imply that it was thrown in as you say.

I will say this much, there will be some way to take people and stuff out of your Hell, otherwise all it is good for is being a sanctuary and is that is the case an extra-dimensional box would no just as well. If this is going to be an entire realm of existence with its own people, history, mores etc... than it should matter to the rest of the story.

Thanks you.

No need to allows us to suddenly conjure armies, even just being able to take some of our citizens put for support is already far more than the nothing it gives at base.
 
Have you actually looked at the options and what people wants?

-One: the population can and probably will contain humans, not just devils.

-Two: the hell's existence is retroactive, the inhabitants are their own people not just extensions of us, and shouldn't be treated as such.

-Three: we are playing as Molly Carpenter, not random sociopath number 164737271, she won't accept treating them as mindless automatons anyway.

-Four: as someone else pointed out, we have no current reasons to think that we actually can deploy them that easily even in the nevernever, best not to plan around it.



Yeah, the simple fact that there is no canon way to actually use them for anything but dumping ennemies really is a waste and do imply that it was thrown in as you say.



Thanks you.

No need to allows us to suddenly conjure armies, even just being able to take some of our citizens put for support is already far more than the nothing it gives at base.

Any actual devils in your Hell will be in a sense extensions of the Greater let's say Dreaming Molly same as a SGI clone would be, mortals however will just be mortals who live in your world-soul and which may or may not worship you depending on what you choose. Keep in mind the Primordials were creator deities.
 
The inner hell is just a tacked on idea that gets zero support for doing anything outside of itself. Their is no in universe way to get people out of the inner hell that where born/made by it.

Yes there is. It's a Hell that follows the rules of the Thousand Hells as described in the book of that name. There are several ways for devils or people to enter or exit them. It's not trivial for them to entire the real world, but it's possible, and much easier for them to enter the rest of the spirit world. They can, for example, walk.

Have you actually looked at the options and what people wants?

-One: the population can and probably will contain humans, not just devils.

-Two: the hell's existence is retroactive, the inhabitants are their own people not just extensions of us, and shouldn't be treated as such.

-Three: we are playing as Molly Carpenter, not random sociopath number 164737271, she won't accept treating them as mindless automatons anyway.

-Four: as someone else pointed out, we have no current reasons to think that we actually can deploy them that easily even in the nevernever, best not to plan around it.

Even if we have mortal humans in there, why would we use them as a military rather than devils? They're worse at it in almost every way. Why we'd want people in there is another matter. I think it's a simple error and cruelty to do so.

The devils of the hell are not people.

Treating soldiers as soldiers and sending them to war does not mean treeing them as mindless automatons. Where on earth does that idea come from?

And if we can't deploy them, the charm may as well not exist and a major feature and power of the Infernal Exalted, taking up substantial wordcount, is almost completely useless and might as well just be an imaginary world.
 
Easy solution to "An entire magical superpower at your beck and call at E3" is "you need E4 and E5 to fully leverage it. Perhaps some additional charms, too."

Not allowing Hell to influence anything is lame as fuck tho, so it is cool that DP intends to allow some immediate utility straight after purchase.
The devils of the hell are not people.
This particularity not going to be a popular point of view.
 
Quoted from Page 232, our Hell Realm is "Within our own essence"

Infernals who purchase The King and the King-
dom develop a new Hell-Realm within their own Es-
sence. The rules found below can be used to design the
Exalt's new Hell.

So I'm under the impression Molly's Hell will not be in the nevernever but inside her own soul.

Edit: There's also page 200 in the Charm description, which places our hell inside our Exaltation

System: The Infernal crafts a new Hell-realm with-
in her own Exaltation.
 
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I mean this literally. WoD spirits are quite fundamentally alien, with only the most powerful having something resembling free will, and the same very likely applies to our devils here.

Are we talking Masquerade/Apocalypse/Ascension or Requiem/Forsaken/Awakening spirits here? The wiki article I found was ambiguous.(Spirit (WOD))

I mean I can get Requiem/Forsaken/Awakening spirits being alien though what with their essence maximization at all costs thing.
 
So I'm under the impression Molly's Hell will not be in the nevernever but inside her own soul.
Soulgazing Molly after she gets her kingdom is going to be interesting.
I will say this much, there will be some way to take people and stuff out of your Hell, otherwise all it is good for is being a sanctuary and is that is the case an extra-dimensional box would no just as well. If this is going to be an entire realm of existence with its own people, history, mores etc... than it should matter to the rest of the story.
It's also a very strong background, to be fair. Like, resources 5 at least, essentially.
Any actual devils in your Hell will be in a sense extensions of the Greater let's say Dreaming Molly same as a SGI clone would be, mortals however will just be mortals who live in your world-soul and which may or may not worship you depending on what you choose. Keep in mind the Primordials were creator deities.
This doesn't mean they aren't also people, however.
 
So I'm under the impression Molly's Hell will not be in the nevernever but inside her own soul.
Hell-building rules allow to define exit/entry points, through which the inhabitants are supposedly allowed to either enter or leave to, idk. Somewhere.

So weird magical dimension travel rules are probably in effect.

More specifically, our Hell is probably connected to the Ebon Road/other magical super-structures that connect other Yomi hells, same way as you could reach anywhere from Endless Desert during the Age of Sorrow.
 
[X] Offer to wipe the files, you already have a good portion of the material just by knowing what's in them
-[X] HMP Sarah's computer before starting to wipe the files; spend no more than 1 essence on this, in order to avoid anima flair; use 1 willpower point for autosuccess.
-[X] STUNT: "Very well then, we shall help each other. I wlll dispose of the evidence you seek destroyed, and you will leave the mortal to me. I still have business with her before I have to depart" you say, as you make way to the other room, where you guess the computer is, making sure to be the first one to enter. A quick glance at the machine leaves it impregnated with a newly called devil.
 
The devils of the hell are not people.

Look at my signature, now think about what it implies and look back at what you said.

Or in plain text: I am currently stopping myself from ranting at you, these very much are fighting words.

I mean this literally. WoD spirits are quite fundamentally alien, with only the most powerful having something resembling free will, and the same very likely applies to our devils here.

Alien=\=no free will, and humans are not any special, we are animals, just like all other animals, we are not superior, we are not the only sapient beings, we are not important.

The entire point of the primordials soul structures was that they were beings so big that their souls were full on people, yes, I am talking about all of them, from third circle to first circle.

Edit:

Actually, about your *devils are not people*, allow me to disprove it in one feel swoop:

*points at Usum*

There, Q.E.D.
 
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Perhaps you could run an experimental encounter, then post the results. I eyeballed approximate dice results, but a more clear demonstration of How Things Work would be better for the thread.
Okay, I said I'd try, so I'll try.

First let's try to give some stats to generic old Skavis.

An Elder should have high values in all areas of his interest, about 4-6 Dots maybe, with more in one or two special cases, like this guy's Fortitude.
I will work under that assumption, though I can't fully rule out that he is a true Methusela and his Fortitude is the average or lower end of his focus-disciplines. But if that were the case he wouldn't be doing favors for Madrigal Raith, he'd literally be better than Lara.

So assume a combat-relevant statline somewhere in this area:
Generation 6
Strenght 4, Dex 6, Stamina 5
Athletics 5, Brawl 4, Melee 4, Firearms 5
Celerity 5, Potence 4, Fortitude 7

I put the strenght and Potence a bit lower than the other stats because Whampires seem to rely less on raw strenght than other vamps and I have given him Firearms as highest combat-abilty because he first reached for his pistol when we came in, rather than taking out a knife or turning his hands into claws.

Besides the mentioned Disciplines he will certainly have high-tier mental Disciplines, like Presence and Dominate, or that Auspex-trick that allows him to deal straight up damage by mental attacks. But all of those fail instantly against our IPM and if he wastes blood and time using them, our victory becomes much easier.

It is entirely likely that he has one or two more surprises, all Vampires that get seriously old have some, but I can't guess those.

Round 1, roll initiative.
Molly does 7+1d10, the vamp likely along the lines of 9 to 11 +1d10 even without adding Celerity, so let's assume he wins.
Still, we can activate our Reflexive actions without honoring the initiative, so we get our Melee Excellency active and our VLE for big soak. We don't even have to do that to draw our sword and light it on fire with BRR. We have 6 Essence left.

He uses his first action for a full dodge, preserving his Celerity bonus-actions at the end of the round to shoot back. For someone who got that old survival will always take priority over a quick victory.

Molly strikes first, but splits her dicepool for a later parry.
First attack in melee is 9 (Melee +Dex) x2 (Excellency) -1 (Split action) +2 (Stunt) = 19 at difficulty 6 (+1 from wetness, -1 from split action)
I got 12 Successes (since we don't substract 1s)
The Elder dodges with a Dicpool of 11 (Dex+Athletics) +3 (Celerity-dice not spend on extra-actions later) = 14S6
I got 7 successes

That means Molly rolls 6 (2+Str) +4 (Successes over requirement) = 10 Damage-dice at DC6
Bad roll, only 3 successes
He soaks with 7 Dice (Since only fortitude counts against Aggravated) at DC 6
5 Successes.
Narrativly, he just managed to dodge most of our attack and the rast barely scratched his harder-than-steel skin

Then he uses his bonus actions from Celerity.
First Shot with his handgun: 11+3 =14S6
5 Successes
Molly parries: 18S6
9 Successes, the bullet goes poof against the Hellfire-blade.

But oh no, the Vamp has yet another action to shoot us!
Second shot: 14S6
He totally fucks it up, only 2 successes when the average is 7.

With a heavy handgun that's 5 damage +1 from having more successes than he needs to hit
1 Success
Against 8 Soak at difficulty 5, that is ridiculous
5 Successes, the bullet barely gives a "pling" as it bounces of our brazen abs.

Round 2
We use another reflexive action to activate Steel Skin, adding 9d10S8 to our soak.
Bad roll, we only add 1. Essence is at 5.

He readies a dodge again.

We strike, this time more confident in our soak and without splitting actions, so 18 dice at DC5
12 Successes
He dodges 14S6
Only 4 successes

We have a solid 13 damage-dice
8 Damage
He soaks with 7 Dice
Only 2 Successes

He takes 6 damage, already almost finishing him, as we activate Green Sun Nimbus Flare, for another 4 damage
He soaks and barely gets his 4 successes.

Since he understand that he has no chance to run away while crippled, he might use a mental discipline right now. But for the game's sake I'll let him attack again.
He uses willpower to surpress his wound-penalties, if these were mere cuts he would use blood to heal them, but Aggravated says fuck you.
As he just learned that his bullets are not great he pulls a knife and attacks us to utilize his vampiric strenght.

Brawl+Dex is 10 at DC 6
3 Successes

He adds Potency to deal not just 6d10S6 damage, but also add 4 auto-successes
8 Successes
We soak with 9 dice now
5 Successes
We take 3 damage, which still leaves us at 0 penalty.
After this it is extremly unlikely that he tries another attack. Every instinct in his body and soul must be screaming right now not to get burned by hellfire again, while his attacks shatter against brazen flesh.

He will submit, try to flee by some trick or use mental disciplines and fail.

I admit that the Vampire got a bit unluckier than Molly in this scenario, but all the rolls were real and due to our greater health-pool we simply have more room for error.
Also the Vamp spend 4 Bloodpoints per round, which is not very sustainable either.
 
Need to run errands. Replies might be spotty for a couple hours.
Dad is beholden to the mysterious ways of God if he wants to work at full efficiency.
We are certainly not.
Also he's one man with a sword, we are one Essence and a Charm away from being a Nation.
Michael is in large part the human moral lodestone of the series.
And he's not just one man with a sword, he's a paladin with a Sword. He's killed a Dragon, and darker things. His dayjob is to contest Fallen Angels. Situations like Cleveland are more or less routine.

If he, and the people who give him direction, think there is no shame in prioritizing, and in leaving lesser evils be?
Its worth thinking twice about making broad moral judgements in-setting.
Yes. And Charity teachers her children that some fights can't be won. After which they hack the (school) system. ETE allows us to deny various nefarious forces entry into political arena. Yes, we don't have a charm to boost anyone, but NWS + ETE + RVD allows us to visit all the political rallies, check all the political candidates, then totally screw their campaigns over.

We are, in fact, equipped (or can be equipped) to keep forces of evil from taking advantage of political vacuum. Unless you assume that there are no good, uncorrupted politicians, we can, in fact, get those in power and then keep them uncorrupted.
This is a mischaracterization of the entire episode.

Charity doesnt teach some fights cant be won. Furthermore, what Leech did didnt actually solve the problem; Dyslexic Girl is still dyslexic, still isnt getting the help she needs, and now she could be in trouble when she doesnt perform to the standards of her tests. Indeed, this entire episode can be presented as evidence that she can work harder to get good grades.

Forging a person's academic records doesnt stop them being dyslexic.
The problem is still there, and the consequences for the victim have worsened.


Its almost as if having someone with the powers of an Infernal Exalted running around the US political system will generate pushback. I mean, do you think people will absolutely trust the good will and judgement of someone with the powers of an archdevil in executing a largescale intervention in the US political system, sight unseen?

Consequences are a running theme of every Exalted chronicle. There's a reason for that.
They didn't see Molly till she was at the door, they have no idea how we got here.
If we send the car away and get picked up somewhere discreet it could be a considerable period of time before they figure out the connection.
The window is open. We parked on the curb.
The Whamp has Auspex 2, with all its passive boosts to Perception.
He can literally see the car.

On disclosing our identity leading to combat.
Not really a valid argument.
Dude has been staring at us with Auspex. He rolled 4 sux.
If we were channelling the magic of a Fallen Angel, he'd be able to tell.

They're going to be devils. They're not autonomous people in a really meaningful sense but an extension of the Infernal themself.
Point of correction:
Most of the inhabitants of our Hell will be human, with a prior history.
Devils and other supernaturals will be a minority, and its an option you actually have to buy with points when speccing the Hell.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 23, 2023 at 12:44 PM, finished with 122 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Offer to wipe the files, you already have a good portion of the material just by knowing what's in them
    -[X] HMP Sarah's computer before starting to wipe the files; spend no more than 1 essence on this, in order to avoid anima flair; use 1 willpower point for autosuccess.
    -[X] STUNT: "Very well then, we shall help each other. I wlll dispose of the evidence you seek destroyed, and you will leave the mortal to me. I still have business with her before I have to depart" you say, as you make way to the other room, where you guess the computer is, making sure to be the first one to enter. A quick glance at the machine leaves it impregnated with a newly called devil.
    [X]Plan Crash Override
    -[X]Wipe the files
    -[X]HMP Sarah's computer: 1m Essence + 1WP for autosux. Anima flare for surprise negation and to distract from HMP use -[X]Cyberdevil takes snapshot of computer, including all activity on it
    -[X]Have Molly, with cyberdevil look through and delete relevant data as well as online backups
    -[X]STUNT: "Indiscretion. Cant have that, of course." And if there's a little bitter amusement in your voice, you cant be sure at what. "Her life is still not your Court's to take. But I will attempt to disarm her of the weapon she wields." You walk, still in mid air towards the the home computer, which is already powered on. Pulling out the keyboard, you pause and talk over your shoulder."If you have enhanced...senses, looking too closely at what Im about to do is at your own peril." And as you type into the keyboard you call up another of your little helpers, with your many eyed anima banner unfolding around you like a malign flower.
    [X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
    -[X] Activate Melee Excellency and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton (both reflexive, 2 Essence cost)
    -[X] (Stunt) This is a much bigger deal than you could possibly have hoped for, but in the immediate moment it is still more important to prevent the Vampires from killing another human, now or tomorrow. As the light of your soul fills the room and your armor begins to surround you, you kick a chair in the elder vampires direction, not even hoping for any direct effect, but maybe to keep his eyes of the sword that appeared in your hand a fraction of a second longer while you charge.
    [x] Offer to wipe off the evidence of Raith crimes off all of Agent Green's devices
    -[x]... and keep a copy (Roll opposed Charisma+Subterfuge vs the Elder's Auspex ???)
    [X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
    [X] Introduce yourself properly, this charade has run its course
 
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