Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

No votes Uju32? I do not mind Yogs vote but what is your thoughts?

We are taking the girl as a minion. So they are going to find out anyway. So best get it out now and not later when it can explode jn our face.
I've been on and off busy for most of the day, so Im only really coming back to this.
My thinking is that
1)We dont want this information leaking willy nilly. Thats in the interests of noone who wants a stable society.
Not the Whites, not the wizards, not the rest of humanity.
We might want to release it a little at a time, and launder it through channels

2)Our word is Important. We dont want a reputation for ruleslawyering around promises
So we need to be careful about what promises we make here

Yog's general thrust is ......I dont like the stunt.
Gimme fifty minutes to do a reread.
Even the dumb members of the Denarians have better things to do them cause some minor political trouble. Also that could to more oversight of government which would be terrible for them.
o_O
Heinrich Kemmler spent over a hundred and fifty years engineering World War 1.

The idea that political trouble is minor and should be ignored is just horifically wrong given the setting. Exploding a multiparty, multisectoral political scandal on the eve of Congressional elections is how you get a bunch of people elected into Congress for two years just when an economic crisis is brewing.

Consider a situation where the 2008 financial crisis is ongoing and Congress is paralysed because you just elected a bunch of radicals two years ago on a platform of "clean hands" because a lot of the old set were tainted by association.
People are losing jobs but no action can be taken because the people in power wont do shit.

We've seen it happen before in the US and elsewhere. Its called the Great Depression.
Millions in penury and misery. Politicial upheaval. The rise of National Socialism in Germany, and sympathies in the US.
There's a reason I produced that Nicodemus quote: Apocalypse is a frame of mind.
 
Last edited:
"She intended to deliver the information to a group within the FBI which knows enough to believe her, yet not enough to have learned discretion. While I too would prefer a less blunt solution than simply killing Agent Greene she has known too much for too long to simply cloud her memories and in any case I do not possess enough of an understanding of the machine-minds..."
QUESTION
How did a Criminal Division special agent learn about a classified group of agents on the National Security division of the FBI?
To the point where she knows who to deliver shit to that will take it seriously?

I continue to have questions.
 
But those are supposed to be around baseline for an elder iirc.
They are not.

There is a mostly consistent trend of approx 1-2 attribute dots + 1-2 discipline dots drop across the board each time you jump an age category/go up a generation or two, stopping once you reach "non-elder" age. That is the "soft" mechanical tendency that you get from comparing character sheets and trying to unify rando visions of very different authors over many years of publications; the hard limit is that Vampire generations cap traits and disciplines, so non-Methuselah gen 6-7 vamps values are capped at lower values in comparison to their 4-5 gen progenitors.

In other words, Methuselah don't "just" get Ancient Bullshit Powers, their "baseline" statblock is better than statblocks of their vampire children. In pretty much the same way as Antedeluvian baseline statblock is better than Methuselah's.

That was a thing before ExWoD, btw. OWod Vampire books hammered in the inequality dynamic between old vampire dad and his babby vampire child being a thing for each vamp generation real hard, very consistently.

That foray into vampire power levels and age categories aside
Anyway, yes, you don't need all attributes at 7 + multiple disciples at 7+ to threaten current Molly. Things get dangerous way before that thanks to Celerity multiplying the damage output. Potence 5 Strength 5 Vampire with blood buffed Dex capable of breaking through Molly's soak and dealing, idk, lets say, 3HL worth of damage? Unpleasant.

Then that vampire activates Celerity, and makes that happen four or five more times. Result is - very sad Molly watching her 11 HL evaporate in a single round. Pain. Suffering. Agony, even.

Nvm miscellaneous statboosters, yes. Numbers could get sillier.

You don't need a Methuselah to create an "AAHHHH"-tier combat encounter for E2 Exalt without primary combat charms.

I didn't really expect us to get anywhere near that sort of stuff for a couple more arcs at least, but I guess DP decided that we were getting too comfortable being nigh-invulnerable to most entry-level gribblies.

EDIT - Anyway, kind of crashing here, sorry if the post is a bit of a mess. I have issues with text bloat in general, particularly when tired.
 
Last edited:
On the subject of introducing ourselves - not now. We can part with an offer of later meeting for the girl, and introduce ourselves to her. DPE + excellencies should be enough, I think, to get her to not disclose who we are.

I think the stunt could use some work. It reads too much like an unpracticed lie to me, because it front loads information. Like a kid trying to get the whole story in your head before you can think of any piercing questions.

It also establishes too many different details and points in my opinion.

They're curious about our motives and connections to this situation, but they don't actually need to know that much. The more we tell them the more points of comparison there are for determining that something doesn't add up and the less space there is for the target to convince themselves of things.

We're unlikely to come up with as convincing an argument to either of these people as whatever they dream up going over this after the fact.
Yeah, that's more than fair. What would you suggest? How should I change it? The main thrust of the vote is not the stunt, to be honest, but "wipe the computer while planting HMP into it".

Because right now its a flip of the coin between the Denarians and Nemesis.
Or she's a mortal seeking revenge. That's also possible.
QUESTION
How did a Criminal Division special agent learn about a classified group of agents on the National Security division of the FBI?
To the point where she knows who to deliver shit to that will take it seriously?

I continue to have questions.
That's easy enough. They were investigating her husband's murder, and she was already aware of the supernatural. From there finding an FBI analog of special investigations is not a big leap.

EDIT:
There's a reason I produced that Nicodemus quote: Apocalypse is a frame of mind.
Yes, and I apologize if I sound harsh, it is you (if I understand your position correctly), who is on the side of bad guys here. Not rooting out corruption is surrendering to the idea that all politicians are corrupt and will be corrupt and the situation can't be improved. It is the frame of mind that Nicdemius is talking about. A large, public multinational scandal is... unpleasant, but it is good. It shows that there are still those who are willing to fight against corruption.
 
Last edited:
I definitly think we want the data, though we might want to work with the Library or the FBI in actually using it. Can't trust Daedalus with something this big.

We can't really trust deadalus with anything anyway.

That translates to a minimum of 9 Soak, and possibly in excess of 12 Soak.

Ok, but does he soak agrav like that? Because our main advantage is that our soak is for everything while most have to go through hoops to have aggrav soak from what I understand.

If he cannot soak aggrav or soak it with difficulty, we have a significant advantage due to doing agrrav damage as a matter of course, at least in the soak department.

That doesn't mean telling them right now in the middle of a volatile situation where the assumption works in our favor though.

Wanted to see that we'll have to tell at one point or another, right now was indeed out, but there is an expiration date for that whole thing.

That on the other hand would work fine, the devil what literally uses the computer as its brain is at least as good at restoring data as a professional service

Well, I know what I want to do.

Someone as old as the elder will not know how far you have to go to actually erase data from a computer disc, so it's all on the young one.

Even if we don't use it right now, it's good to keep it on hand.

[x] Offer to wipe off the evidence of Raith crimes off all of Agent Green's devices
-[x]... and keep a copy (Roll opposed Charisma+Subterfuge vs the Elder's Auspex ???)


This is a gold mine. It's worth going for even if it means we have to run. Would like a stunt to increase our chances though.

Yog's vote is to do just that but in a better way, just saying.

fight is inevitable rather have some essence to spend

Not really?

Letting them have all they want is out, since it includes killing Greene, but we already got quite a lot of things on them just from the crown use, and we can delete the files without actually making them unrecoverable without that much problems, it is incredibly difficult to remove data without destroying the drive, and even that has been restored from.

As long as we negotiate well, we can all leave this place alive.

Fortitude 7+ is I am invulnerable for 10 minutes if you keep it going full blast. We can get around that but without suprise, it a real endurance match.

Well, that answer my previous question about him soaking aggrav, yeah, let's try not to fight this guy without reasons.

[x] Yog
 
Fortitude 7+ is I am invulnerable for 10 minutes if you keep it going full blast. We can get around that but without suprise, it a real endurance match.
That is simply wrong.
Fortitude 7 allows him to roll 7 additional soak-dice against Lethal or Bashing attacks, or 7 in total against Aggravated.

There's no special power that allows for complete invulnerability below level 9, and then only for one limb.

Now, if he is actually a Generation 4 Vamp with Fortitude 9, then I would agree with all the doomsaying.
But I really don't think that's the case.

Anyway, yes, you don't need all attributes at 7 + multiple disciples at 7+ to threaten current Molly. Things get dangerous way before that thanks to Celerity multiplying the damage output. Potence 5 Strength 5 Vampire with blood buffed Dex capable of breaking through Molly's soak and dealing, idk, lets say, 3HL worth of damage? Unpleasant.

Then that vampire activates Celerity, and makes that happen four or five more times. Result is - very sad Molly watching her 11 HL evaporate in a single round. Pain. Suffering. Agony, even.
Worst case would be pretty bad I admit.

But I refuse to believe that a White Court Elder would would go all-in on physical prowess like that. He has to have spend some XP on his mental skills and mind-disciplines.
If this were Black Court of the same age and demonstrated level of Fortitude I'd be a lot more worried, but it is not.

Also he can't have enough Bloodpoints/Round spending to use Celerity to its fullest extend and also activate the active version of Potency and Bloodbuff.

Either way, this fight would be fast and brutal and without any particular likelyhood of collateral damage since neither of us has a moment to spare to demolish the house, when we have to focus on each other instead.

[X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
-[X] Activate Melee Excellency and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton (both reflexive, 2 Essence cost)
-[X] (Stunt) This is a much bigger deal than you could possibly have hoped for, but in the immediate moment it is still more important to prevent the Vampires from killing another human, now or tomorrow. As the light of your soul fills the room and your armor begins to surround you, you kick a chair in the elder vampires direction, not even hoping for any direct effect, but maybe to keep his eyes of the sword that appeared in your hand a fraction of a second longer while you charge.
 
Last edited:
Or she's a mortal seeking revenge. That's also possible.
Against who?
A dump of information to Daedalus could be a strike at the Whamps.
A dump of information pre-election doesnt actually do any worse to the White Court than if it was after the election.

I found the timing and choice of murder victim used to frame Dresden troubling originally
And the fact that it is turning out to be proximate justification for this looks even more shifty to my rye.

That's easy enough. They were investigating her husband's murder, and she was already aware of the supernatural. From there finding an FBI analog of special investigations is not a big lea
Classified groups like that arent up walkimg around with office numbers on their ID cards.
I find it incredibly unlikely that she'd even know who they are.
These are mostly out of towners after all.

Yes, and I apologize if I sound harsh, it is you (if I understand your position correctly), who is on the side of bad guys here. Not rooting out corruption is surrendering to the idea that all politicians are corrupt and will be corrupt and the situation can't be improved. It is the frame of mind that Nicdemius is talking about. A large, pub
In the third book of this setting, Michael Carpenter, moral lodestone of the series, walked into a diplomatic ball of the Red Court without immediately beginning to kill off every Red and Black Court vampire around him. And teamed with a Whampire. In the fifth book, he and Sanya teamed up with the preeminent overlord of the Chicago underworld to attempt to recover the Shroud of Turin.

This setting has long establisned the need for recognizing lesser evils and there being a time and place for things.

Even the most moral people do not immediately jump to precipitous action unless there are lives at immediate risk
You do not deliberately time a dump of politically scandalous material on the eve of elections without a plan.
And in this case, the plan appears to be chaos.

The responsible thing is to make notes, and address this when we can minimize the chance of starting a war by accidemt and getting a whole ton of people killed.
I have zero interest in being party to a situation that makes shit worse out of a need to express moral superiority.
 
In the third book of this setting, Michael Carpenter, moral lodestone of the series, walked into a diplomatic ball of the Red Court without immediately beginning to kill off every Red and Black Court vampire around him. And teamed with a Whampire. In the fifth book, he and Sanya teamed up with the preeminent overlord of the Chicago underworld to attempt to recover the Shroud of Turin.

This setting has long establisned the need for recognizing lesser evils and there being a time and place for things.

Even the most moral people do not immediately jump to precipitous action unless there are lives at immediate risk
You do not deliberately time a dump of politically scandalous material on the eve of elections without a plan.
And in this case, the plan appears to be chaos.

The responsible thing is to make notes, and address this when we can minimize the chance of starting a war by accidemt and getting a whole ton of people killed.
I have zero interest in being party to a situation that makes shit worse out of a need to express moral superiority.
So let's assume we can talk Greene into a plan that isn't dumping the information at the worst possible time.

We still have huge amounts of evidence that can get WC-puppets removed from influence, can get WC human trafficking operations busted, can get WC accounts frozen and can give us a good pretext for killing some old vampires who really, really deserve it without legal repercussions.

You are propably right that the White Court is not the worst thing out there, but they are still a cancer in human society and we have here the means to make the antibodies understand that the cancer is a bad thing and act accordingly.
 
VOTE
[X]Plan Crash Override
-[X]Wipe the files
-[X]HMP Sarah's computer: 1m Essence + 1WP for autosux. Anima flare for surprise negation and to distract from HMP use -[X]Cyberdevil takes snapshot of computer, including all activity on it
-[X]Have Molly, with cyberdevil look through and delete relevant data as well as online backups
-[X]STUNT: "Indiscretion. Cant have that, of course." And if there's a little bitter amusement in your voice, you cant be sure at what. "Her life is still not your Court's to take. But I will attempt to disarm her of the weapon she wields." You walk, still in mid air towards the the home computer, which is already powered on. Pulling out the keyboard, you pause and talk over your shoulder."If you have enhanced...senses, looking too closely at what Im about to do is at your own peril." And as you type into the keyboard you call up another of your little helpers, with your many eyed anima banner unfolding around you like a malign flower.


RATIONALE
Spend 1WP for autosux on HMP.
Anima flare to give the impression that we are doing magic. And, as a little protective measure for us turning our back on the two vampires in the room, it puts our surprise negator up.

Warning because well, pointing a Level 2+ Auspex at an active Infernal anima banner might not be safe for your mind, given that Dresden and the Sight needed Molly to give advice for him to look safely without damaging his mind and picking up a Derangment. This way, it doesnt look like an attack.

Also might distract from the act of Molly calling a cyberdevil.
 
If we do anything other than kill the Vampire, he will still kill Greene.

Not today and maybe not tomorrow, but definitly soon.

She's the very model of a person who knows too much to be safely left alive.
Leaving her would be like the mafia leaving a witness against them because the think burning his notebook was enough to prvent him from squealing. Unlikely and stupid.

Edit: And he'll also look into us and possibly decide to kill us from ambush before we can interfere with the matter again. His chances from ambush are vastly better than his chances while we are both unprepared.
 
Last edited:
If we do anything other than kill the Vampire, he will still kill Greene.

Not today and maybe not tomorrow, but definitly soon.

She's the very model of a person who knows too much to be safely left alive.
Leaving her would be like the mafia leaving a witness against them because the think burning his notebook was enough to prvent him from squealing. Unlikely and stupid.
How much objection is worth it considering again, she spied for the Raiths? She didn't even have the excuse of some supernatural predatory hunger like the ghouls or Thomas did.

Take some reasonable effort to save her life? Take all reasonable effort to save her life? Take all reasonable and some unreasonable effort to save her life?
 
Against White Court, who she blames for either murdering her husband, or at least reneging on their implicit part of their agreement - money and safety for fealty.
Classified groups like that arent up walkimg around with office numbers on their ID cards.
I find it incredibly unlikely that she'd even know who they are.
These are mostly out of towners after all.
"Who are the guys that investigating my husband's murder?" is, like, the first thing she'd ask. And from there, I don't think it would be too hard to find out that they deal with "strange things". And from there, well, she knows what the strange things are. She doesn't need to know their mandate and history to get that they are special investigations department.


[X] Offer to wipe the files, you already have a good portion of the material just by knowing what's in them
-[X] HMP Sarah's computer before starting to wipe the files; spend no more than 1 essence on this, in order to avoid anima flair; use 1 willpower point for autosuccess.
-[X] STUNT: "Very well then, we shall help each other. I wlll dispose of the evidence you seek destroyed, and you will leave the mortal to me. I still have business with her before I have to depart" you say, as you make way to the other room, where you guess the computer is, making sure to be the first one to enter. A quick glance at the machine leaves it impregnated with a newly called devil.


Don't disclose cyberdevils or computer manipulation magic in general. He doesn't need to know specifics of our magic.
If we do anything other than kill the Vampire, he will still kill Greene.

Not today and maybe not tomorrow, but definitly soon.

She's the very model of a person who knows too much to be safely left alive.
Leaving her would be like the mafia leaving a witness against them because the think burning his notebook was enough to prvent him from squealing. Unlikely and stupid.

Edit: And he'll also look into us and possibly decide to kill us from ambush before we can interfere with the matter again. His chances from ambush are vastly better than his chances while we are both unprepared.
If we leave while he's still under impression that we are a Jade court elder, and that we have business with Greene, this should give us plenty enough time to relocate her, if he comes back.

As to finding us... What with? He won't be asking about Molly Carpenter. He'll be asking about a wan kuei elder. Who might or might not have been wearing a disguise.
 
This tally starts from Arc 5 Post 16

Adhoc vote count started by OctarineShrike on Jan 23, 2023 at 2:51 AM, finished with 174 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Offer to wipe the files, you already have a good portion of the material just by knowing what's in them
    -[X] HMP Sarah's computer before starting to wipe the files; spend no more than 1 essence on this, in order to avoid anima flair; use 1 willpower point for autosuccess.
    -[X] STUNT: "Very well then, we shall help each other. I wlll dispose of the evidence you seek destroyed, and you will leave the mortal to me. I still have business with her before I have to depart" you say, as you make way to the other room, where you guess the computer is, making sure to be the first one to enter. A quick glance at the machine leaves it impregnated with a newly called devil.
    [X] Offer to wipe off the evidence of Raith crimes off all of Agent Green's devices
    -[x]... and keep a copy (Roll opposed Charisma+Subterfuge vs the Elder's Auspex ???)
    [X] Introduce yourself properly, this charade has run its course
    [X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
    -[X] Activate Melee Excellency and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton (both reflexive, 2 Essence cost)
    -[X] (Stunt) This is a much bigger deal than you could possibly have hoped for, but in the immediate moment it is still more important to prevent the Vampires from killing another human, now or tomorrow. As the light of your soul fills the room and your armor begins to surround you, you kick a chair in the elder vampires direction, not even hoping for any direct effect, but maybe to keep his eyes of the sword that appeared in your hand a fraction of a second longer while you charge.
    [X] Kill the old Vampire
    -[X] Activate Melee Excellency and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton (both reflexive, 2 Essence cost)
    -[X] (Stunt) There is nothing left to say. They want to protect not the masquerade in general, but the crimes of their kind in particular and you have no reason to aquiescence to that. As you call on the armor of ruin around you bright light spills from your soul, starkly showing the girl's shocked expression and the Elder's lighting-fast attempt to draw his gun. Your sword is in your hand as you jump forward in a thrust hopefully strong enough to break through a true Elders hardened body.
    [X] Let the two vampires go, odds are they will try again, but maybe Agent Greene will get the evidence to Dedalus before she is killed
    -[X] Once they are gone return to speak to Agent Greene
    -[X] Have your cyberdemons acquire all of Agent Greene's evidence. Apply new ones to her devices if necessary.
    -[X] Leak evidence to Murphy
    -[X][Stunt] Alas, I still have questions for her. Try again another day.
    [X] Plan: Isn't It Ironic?
    -[X] Offer to remove the evidence of Raith crimes from all of Sarah Green's devices and insure that any backup hard copies she might have hidden elsewhere are also dealt with. We'll keep copies of the files, if possible.
    --[X] In addition to removing the threat of Sarah's evidence, we will also offer to assist her in finding the being responsible for her husband's death. This not only has the benefit of placating Sarah, it may also preserve her status as a useful agent, for us if not the Raith.
    --[X] We'll offer Sitha an opportunity to serve by creating and operating a charity. This will allow her to benefit from Mercy In Servitude with minimal input from us.
    --[X] If at any point combat starts, activate Melee Excellency and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton (both reflexive, 2 Essence cost)
    -[X] STUNT: "Ah, you seek to hide evidence of White Court involvement in the sordid affairs of the wealthy and powerful. So this is what's going to happen; I'll make certain that none of Sarah's gathered evidence remains, including any backups she didn't trust to electronic storage. Her threat will have no teeth, so to speak. I'll even go so far as to offer her my assistance in discovering who or what killed her husband. After all, my interest in Detective Greene's murder is what caused our paths to cross today."
    --[X] To Sitha explain, "You now have a choice to make that will set the tone for the remainder of your life. When you leave here today, you can choose to serve my interests and be forever free from the Hunger which resides in your soul. Or you can reject my largesse and become yet another predator preying on hapless mortals." Pause as if in deep thought before continuing, "Hmm, I have just the task in mind for you, my dear. I ask that you start a charitable organization, one dedicated to suicide prevention and the wellbeing of those impacted by suicide. You're young and inexperienced, so feel free to involve others as necessary, but you must dedicate at least 24 hours each week to starting and operating the charity, and all major decision making must remain under your purview. Give my offer some thought and contact me within 72 hours with proof of your commitment, or do not and seal your fate." Give Sitha a throwaway email address she can use to reach us.
    [X] Kill the elder vampire, he's too dangerous to let live
    [X]Plan Crash Override
    -[X]Wipe the files
    -[X]HMP Sarah's computer: 1m Essence + 1WP for autosux. Anima flare for surprise negation and to distract from HMP use -[X]Cyberdevil takes snapshot of computer, including all activity on it
    -[X]Have Molly, with cyberdevil look through and delete relevant data as well as online backups
    -[X]STUNT: "Indiscretion. Cant have that, of course." And if there's a little bitter amusement in your voice, you cant be sure at what. "Her life is still not your Court's to take. But I will attempt to disarm her of the weapon she wields." You walk, still in mid air towards the the home computer, which is already powered on. Pulling out the keyboard, you pause and talk over your shoulder."If you have enhanced...senses, looking too closely at what Im about to do is at your own peril." And as you type into the keyboard you call up another of your little helpers, with your many eyed anima banner unfolding around you like a malign flower.
 
So let's assume we can talk Greene into a plan that isn't dumping the information at the worst possible time.

We still have huge amounts of evidence that can get WC-puppets removed from influence, can get WC human trafficking operations busted, can get WC accounts frozen and can give us a good pretext for killing some old vampires who really, really deserve it without legal repercussions.

You are propably right that the White Court is not the worst thing out there, but they are still a cancer in human society and we have here the means to make the antibodies understand that the cancer is a bad thing and act accordingly.
1)Do we want to take the evidence? Yes. Do we want to weed the compromised out? Yes, thats wise.
And as long as we can avoid a masquerade breach, the Whites will shrug and lump it.
And spin up another scheme. Its what they do, and have been doing for four thousand years.


2)No it isnt.
The Whamps are a lesser evil, but while they fill their niche it prevents a whole lot more worse things from attempting to butt in. Wanna deal with Fomor instead? At least the current White administration knows limits.

This whole scheme seems to date from back when Papa Raith was in power, before Lara took over.


3)The Library is aware of the White Court.
They know about angels, and talk to the Catholics, of course they know about the White Court.


4)What good pretext?
If you want to kill old vampires go to South America. Whamps only do physical combat as a last resort.
They prefer to work through minions.

If we do anything other than kill the Vampire, he will still kill Greene.
Not today and maybe not tomorrow, but definitly soon.

She's the very model of a person who knows too much to be safely left alive.
Leaving her would be like the mafia leaving a witness against them because the think burning his notebook was enough to prvent him from squealing. Unlikely and stupid.
Its been a long time since you read the books, apparently.
How many attempts have there been to kill Murphy ever since she saw the Pale King commit murder in front of her in Blood Rites?
She literally knows where some of the bodies are buried on the Raith Estate.

As long as Greene has no evidence, if she chooses to make accusations she can be painted as a kook who lost it with the death of her husband.

Furthermore, if you successfully kill OldSkavis, precisely what makes you think the people who sent him will stop? Are you under the impression that he's the only hitter the White Court have in Chicago? Will you kill his niece too to prevent her fingering us?
How do you expect to dispose of the body?

Literally the only way Greene survives this entire episode is if OldSkavis goes home convinced, and convinces others, that killing her is more trouble than its worth. Else they can just wait a year, if the object is revenge.

Killing is easy.
Killing has to actually have an achievable purpose.
You are making the same mistake failson Madrigal Raith made in sending OldSkavis here.
"Who are the guys that investigating my husband's murder?" is, like, the first thing she'd ask. And from there, I don't think it would be too hard to find out that they deal with "strange things". And from there, well, she knows what the strange things are. She doesn't need to know their mandate and history to get that they are special investigations department.
The people investigating her husband's murder were Criminal Division.
Daedalus, in the form of Wright and his boys, only got involved while Dresden was a subject for around 48 hours because they saw a chance to shanghai him; after that they were all shunted into the Red Room Murders investigation.
 
Last edited:
If we leave while he's still under impression that we are a Jade court elder, and that we have business with Greene, this should give us plenty enough time to relocate her, if he comes back.

As to finding us... What with? He won't be asking about Molly Carpenter. He'll be asking about a wan kuei elder. Who might or might not have been wearing a disguise.
Black Rider is literally parked out front.
You know, the Mercedes we bought at auction where a Whampire assistant of Lara Raith was?
There's less than ten thousand of them in the US iirc.

We are walking around as a roughly six foot tall blonde woman with our face uncovered, our blonde hair dyed in colorful patterns, and a couple piercings.
We are distinctive.
 
3)The Library is aware of the White Court.
They know about angels, and talk to the Catholics, of course they know about the White Court.
I know they are aware of the White COurt in general.
But knowing its exact operations and puppets, or at least quite a few of them, would allow them to strike out against them in a way that simply knowing they have some high-tier influence doesn't.

4)What good pretext?
If you want to kill old vampires go to South America. Whamps only do physical combat as a last resort.
They prefer to work through minions.
That's why I prefer to fight them over Red Elders for our baby-Infernal.
I assume that right now a Lord of the Outer Night would have a very good chance of killing us, Shintai and all.

Furthermore, if you successfully kill OldSkavis, precisely what makes you think the people who sent him will stop? Are you under the impression that he's the only hitter the White Court have in Chicago? Will you kill his niece too to prevent her fingering us?
How do you expect to dispose of the body?
As far as I can tell Madrigal send this guy discreetly to deal with the problem before it comes out how much he fucked up for a single mortal informant to amass this kind of highly dangerous evidence.

We don't know if his next step would be to confess to Lara and allow sensible actions to be taken, or if he would continue to be stupid to cover his own ass.

Even if he does do the smart thing and let better people handle the situation, that would buy us quite a bit of time. He has to realise that old Skavis isn't coming back, he has to decide what to do, he has to tell other about the situation and they have to decide how to react.

As for the body, I remain convinced that our Tools can take care of that quickly.
 
On the matter of why set this off before the election, and I stress that this is Molly's guess, because Whites work best when they are undisturbed and able to play the long game. In that context the more chaos the better because it will make it all the harder to cover it up. There will be all sorts of people who see this as an opportunity to gain power or reinforce it, it's fishing with dynamite and Greene only has one stick so she would want to make it count.
 
2)No it isnt.
The Whamps are a lesser evil, but while they fill their niche it prevents a whole lot more worse things from attempting to butt in. Wanna deal with Fomor instead? At least the current White administration knows limits.

This whole scheme seems to date from back when Papa Raith was in power, before Lara took over.
Any further comments from me on this topic would likely be in breach of the forum's rules concerning politics, and might well get me in jail in real life, so... I disagree with this position strongly is the only thing I will say.
The people investigating her husband's murder were Criminal Division.
Daedalus, in the form of Wright and his boys, only got involved while Dresden was a subject for around 48 hours because they saw a chance to shanghai him; after that they were all shunted into the Red Room Murders investigation.
That involvement would be more than enough to start asking and receiving questions, especially if they also talked to her ("how did your husband know Harry Dresden?")
Black Rider is literally parked out front.
You know, the Mercedes we bought at auction where a Whampire assistant of Lara Raith was?
There's less than ten thousand of them in the US iirc.

We are walking around as a roughly six foot tall blonde woman with our face uncovered, our blonde hair dyed in colorful patterns, and a couple piercings.
We are distinctive.
He might, at some point. It's arguable if he will.

As to piercings and such - assuming the vote that was initially voted for was followed (given that it was, in fact, raining, I assume it's still valid), we are in a prim business suit with no piercings on right now, looking like we do when we go to church.
 
I know they are aware of the White COurt in general.
But knowing its exact operations and puppets, or at least quite a few of them, would allow them to strike out against them in a way that simply knowing they have some high-tier influence doesn't.
This is ONE blackmail operation.
A high-end one, one aimed at influential elites. Still ONE. The vast bulk of White Court operations, and the kind of thing they gravitate to, have never been secret to anyone in the know.

This is worth removing because of who its targetted and how broad its become, not because its some unique occurence.
Literally how they've operated thoughout recorded history.
Its not going to be the first time this has been done. Wont be the last.

Just like removing Soviet moles during the Cold War.
That's why I prefer to fight them over Red Elders for our baby-Infernal.
I assume that right now a Lord of the Outer Night would have a very good chance of killing us, Shintai and all.
Yes, a Lord would probably kill us at E2.
I dont know why you think Old Whamps are easier when the QM is statting them out with Fortitude 7 and elder Disciplines.
Thats without equipment, even. Or allies.

As far as I can tell Madrigal send this guy discreetly to deal with the problem before it comes out how much he fucked up for a single mortal informant to amass this kind of highly dangerous evidence. We don't know if his next step would be to confess to Lara and allow sensible actions to be taken, or if he would continue to be stupid to cover his own ass.

Even if he does do the smart thing and let better people handle the situation, that would buy us quite a bit of time. He has to realise that old Skavis isn't coming back, he has to decide what to do, he has to tell other about the situation and they have to decide how to react.

As for the body, I remain convinced that our Tools can take care of that quickly.
It doesnt matter what Madrigal does.

If a Whampire elder turns up dead or vanishes, even if he isnt nobility, every White Court agent and minion, every information source will be beating the bushes to find out what happened to him. His vehicle will be tracked. So will his phone. They'll look through the Chicago camera system. Use Occult means. That part is out of Madrigal's hands even if he tried to hide it.

And given that OldSkavis obviously doesnt like Madrigal, he almost definitely told people where he was going.

Besides, his niece is right here.
Do you want to murder her too? Because she'll talk as soon as she gets a phone.
Guaranteed.

No it does not buy us any significant time.
Even now, we dont actually know if the Skavises came here alone, or if they have getaway drivers and backup on the next street over waiting for them.


Hard disagree.
You are not cremating an adult man in the middle of a residential neighborhood quickly or discreetly.
Not in daylight.


Nevermind that you'd be in breach of essentially every supernatural code of conduct in attempting to jump the dude when you are talking and at implicit truce.
Thats literally the sort of thing Denarians are infamous for, and why they have such a bad rep in the community.

He might, at some point. It's arguable if he will.
As to piercings and such - assuming the vote that was initially voted for was followed (given that it was, in fact, raining, I assume it's still valid), we are in a prim business suit with no piercings on right now, looking like we do when we go to church.
It really isnt.
Not unless you think a vampire Elder with Auspex is blind and deaf.

And still doesnt change the fact that the piercing holes are apparent to someone with Perception boosters like Auspex, and that without hair colorings, Molly is a six foot tall blonde woman with blue eyes who looks like her mother.
The wife of Michael Carpenter.
 
Last edited:
If we do anything other than kill the Vampire, he will still kill Greene.

Not today and maybe not tomorrow, but definitly soon.

Or… we could put her under our umbrella, which would actually protect her, because killing that particular vampire does not prevent her death, the white court would just send another, killing the executioner here does nothing to protect her from the fact that the judge condemned her to death.

The Whamps are a lesser evil, but while they fill their niche it prevents a whole lot more worse things from attempting to butt in. Wanna deal with Fomor instead? At least the current White administration knows limits.

All it takes for evil to win if for good to do nothing.

Perfect is the enemy of done.

The kind of attitude you show there is not one I agree with, trying to get rid of one evil is not inviting another, we get rid of the white court and the fomor try to get in instead? Well, time to get rid of the fomor too, they can't be stronger than the white court, after all, they had to wait to take their place.

The concept of power vacuum is just an excuse to do nothing and let evil win, there is no reasons to think that anyone would let the new players take the place without jumping on them to stop it.
 
It really isnt.
Not unless you think a vampire Elder with Auspex is blind and deaf.

And still doesnt change the fact that the piercing holes are apparent to someone with Perception boosters like Auspex, and that without hair colorings, Molly is a six foot tall blonde woman with blue eyes who looks like her mother.
The wife of Michael Carpenter.
Do I think that he will eventually connect Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael Carpenter with an anonymous elder Jade? Yes, absolutely, for a number of reasons. Do I think we should introduce ourselves now? Absolutely not. Set up a later meeting in either a public place or an accorded neutral territory to talk about the fledgeling's future. Do not delay that meeting. Ideally set it up tomorrow. Possibly bring Thomas, or Michael with us (might be a bad idea, will need further discussion). Right now this is information that would only confuse him.
 
Back
Top