Truthful Lament
Context is the foundation to understanding. Without knowing the surroundings of an image, there's so much that even the brightest minds can miss. Which was why you restrained yourself. You needed to understand what was said next, and the only way to do that was to ask the right questions. Build towards the answers that Entara's chip had made you desperate to learn.

"This place isn't a memorial, is it?" You asked. The walls had cleared back to glossy black as the images faded, but they weren't what you meant, not entirely. "There's too much here to just be that, too much invested to just be a citadel to guard the Teel'sanha's bones."

"No, no it isn't." The answer was what you'd expected, but it didn't stand alone. "This place holds the memories that we couldn't bring ourselves to leave behind in the great museums outside. Why we laid aside our weapons after taking them up, and much more."

There, a place to go from here. That would do. "Why did you? What could they have possibly said to make you stop?"

The walls shimmered and new images formed there. Two War Fleet detachments flickered across space, one Shiplord, one clearly not, engaged in the deadly dance of FTL hunter-killers. Spits of light marred the endless starfield as the recording played out, bereft of any reference points but for whirling, unknown constellations.

Then the Shiplord craft, reduced to a third of their number, stood back from the field. And a craft in the same model as the diplomatic craft you'd seen in the recording of the First Sorrow appeared in their place. The Teel'sanha War Fleet retreated too, and a - presumably - diplomatic vessel of their own flickered into being beside the Shiplord one.

The two ships approached and silvery nanotech formed a connection between the two, a neutral space reliant on both vessels to maintain integrity. You glimpsed a Shiplord form approaching from one side, a Teel'sanha delegation from the other.

"The Shiplords told us the truth," the system said, disrupting your examination of the meeting. "The whole truth, for maybe the first time in their history, and certainly the last."

"What truth?" You asked. You wanted to denounce anything that the Shiplords had said, refuse the answer this place had been created to protect. But if it truly had been created to do that, you couldn't afford not to hear it. Tahkel had said, and you'd agreed, to try and find the truth of them.

That didn't mean you had to believe anything you were told here, but you still needed to listen.

"The truth." Energy surged from the walls, cascading through the chamber in a way that felt somehow familiar- like the touch of a hand you couldn't quite remember. "The only one that really matters."

"But what truth?" Your repetition ground to a halt, and the world slid into glacial slowness around you as the power rippling in the wall arced invisibly into the room between them. Sidra had triggered your perceptual accelerators the moment the leashed energy had formed coherent branches into the chamber, and Iris had brought Mary's online for her in line with standard protocol.

:I get it now,: Elil sent into that near-stillness. You felt the wonder and the soul-deep curiosity that had made him an Insight Focused in the words. :Why it feels familiar.:

:Is it dangerous?:
Kalilah replied immediately. :To any of us?:

:I don't think so,:
Elil sent, his attention shifting towards the youngest member of your Heartcircle. :Mir? Any clue from your Focus?:

:I can't feel anything dangerous from it, but you know that isn't perfect,:
the younger Peace-Focused sent in reply. :But why is it familiar, Elil?:

:It feels like Project Insight,:
Elil said, and for a moment the feeling of leashed energy doubled, tripled, memories flickering across the link between you. :I tested with the project before I became a Unisonbound, and since then I've felt it every time the Project cycled. It's hard to miss for those close to it.:

:Not a geographical closeness, I assume?: Lea asked. Affirmation flowed back from Eli, mixed with thankfulness for the recognition. :So what does that mean?: She added.

:It means that if it's not flagging as an immediate danger from anyone here,: Vega said. Swirling energy had pooled around the Harmonial, reflecting your own, greater, instinctive gathering. :Then it should be safe. And we should see where it takes us.:

:Even for Mary?:
Iris asked.

:Even for Iris?: Mary asked, at almost exactly the same moment.

There was a moment of expectant quiet, then you felt the curious attention flutter beyond the control of those around you, focused on your lack of response. Laughter bubbled inside of you, so strange, to find that here.

:I know better than to ask.: You infused the sent words with a fraction of the love and trust you felt for those around you, a warm breath of companionship whispering above the worry that still gripped you. :And it's not as if there are any exits here. We do this together.:

:Like we should be.:
The chorus answered you.

You and the other Unisonbound moved, taking up position in a loose ring around the more fragile members of the group. And as the energy arcs inched steadily closer, you reached out to touch the closest one to you. The point was simple: diffuse the energy around the Unisonbound, to protect those less experienced with soul manipulation.

The one you'd reached to split apart as it touched your hand, reinforced as it was with the presence of your Aegis, twining around your hand. Then it pushed deeper, past your Masque, past flesh, to the ephemeral you that existed beyond.

:Oh heavens,: you breathed. Because you recognised this. What Elil had said was true, the familiarity, the connection, but the source of it wasn't what he'd thought. Not that it was his fault for making this error, anyone but you would have.

Despite all attempts to the contrary, you were the only human alive who'd ever spoken directly with an Uninvolved. Lea's work with Project Insight to connect with Tahkel had been lucid, but not personal. Yours had been, deeply so, and that gave you experience that no one could match.

:It matches.: Sidra's words were calm, but the Unison's presence around you was more tangible than you'd felt them in weeks. :This is the creation of an Uninvolved. The power left behind would be theirs as well. And that means-:

Your mind flashed ahead of the thought-words, and for an instant you almost did something incredibly unwise. The strength of an Uninvolved was orders of magnitude above the powers you'd wielded at the height of the Third and Second Battles of Sol, and you didn't know if anyone here could survive that. What stopped you was a simple realisation, met in concert with your Unisonbound.

:Anything built here would have been built for those without Practice.: It had to be true. Nothing else would make sense. No Secret had ever suggested the ability to peer into the future; the creations of the Seventh at the Third Sorrow had been simulations of a past the Shiplords had lived.

So instead of throwing your strength against the creation of one so vastly your greater, you welcomed it. You grasped the crackling ribbon of power firmly, wrapping your fingers around it, and brought it to breast, just above your heart. It was like holding a live wire, blurring your vision and making your body shudder. You'd no words that could explain why you were doing it, just instinct. Instinct and that strange, fragile thing called faith.

:Ready?: You asked. You felt the flickers of worry from the others, Lea's most of all, feeling the pain that you were suffering from holding what they were all trying to diffuse.

Sidra's reply came with the feeling of a tired smile, yet as resolute in their support as ever. :Ready.:

:Mandy,:
Vega began.

:Harmonise us, Vega,: you said. You turned your head to the younger woman, and you knew she could see the entreaty on your face through the nanoveil hiding you from Shiplord detection. :Please. We need to see, and I can take us there.:

:Lea?:

:Keep her alive,:
Lea agreed wearily. :Not my first time.:

:I'll be alright,:
you added quickly, mostly to the two most important people out of the group. The two without Unisonbound senses, and therefore the link of the Heartcircle to the whole. :I can see what we need, and it doesn't want to hurt us.:

:You'd better be.:
Iris had no give in her tone, and Mary's silence made it clear she spoke for the both of them. Fair enough, you could manage that. And if you couldn't, your Heartcircle would keep you safe.

So you closed your fist around the blue-white arc of Uninvolved power. It came apart into tiny streamers, each of them racing past your hand and into your body. They slid through your Aegis like it simply didn't exist - perhaps to them it didn't - digging down through the barriers of space until they reached the core of your being.

You hissed in sudden pain as it found it, the touch of impossible lightning playing across the fabric of your soul. You'd felt worse, when Kalilah had almost killed herself at Third Sol, burning herself out into a vengeful and defiant star. You'd survived that, and saved her besides; you'd survive this too.

The pain abruptly vanished.

The other ribbons of light snapped out of existence, leaving only the one you'd taken, feeding out to the others through Vega's abilities.

And, swelling inescapably before you, the shifting image of the Shiplord and Teel'sanha delegates enveloped you. Emotions tore through you, thousands of them, but two resolved out of the whirlwind above all. A mournful pride in the peerless performance of their navy, and a terrible sorrow for what their loss must now require. The conflicting viewpoints made it clear: Teel and Shiplord.

"The terms of the agreement are very clear," the Teel delegate said calmly. Their mouth didn't move in anything close to Earth Standard, but it was perfectly understandable. "We understand that you didn't want this, but we have proven ourselves, old teacher. A promise was made, it must now be upheld."

The Shiplord looked down, and you'd never once seen one look so vulnerable. Not even Kicha presented with the truth of the Third Sorrow, or proof that it could've been avoided.

"It is understood," they said. "And you are right, a promise was made, and you have proven yourselves. I just wish…

"It matters not," the Shiplord shook their head. "You will see what is true, and I hope that you will understand, even if you cannot forgive what we are becoming."

"We never said we couldn't forgive, teacher," the Teel replied, and something in their posture seemed…hopeful. "There are ways back from this. There must be. Sometimes it is the duty of the student to educate."

"Perhaps," the Shiplord said. They keyed a sequence on the panel before them, and you took a moment to survey the room. It was largely featureless, a table with several chairs - none of them in use. There were two transparent panels looking out into that starlit void, with no star close enough to distinguish from the others. And on the table, a panel. An actual one, with buttons marked with Shiplord glyphs. That was unexpected.

"You have asked why our methods are shifting," they continued. "Why we've taken actions to tighten the use of the Secrets by younger races. That was the initial agreement, and I want to know that it hasn't changed."

"It has not."

"Very well," the Shiplord touched a final button, and a display projected itself into the air between the two. A moment later, they stepped around the table to stand beside the Teel'sanha delegate. "This may well be my last lesson to your people. I hope it will suffice.

"What you're looking at," they gestured to the image of a very familiar galaxy, "is our galaxy as it existed three million cycles ago. When only a handful of races were known to exist. One of those was us, and as now our people looked ever outward, struggling forward to discover and chart the wonders of our universe.

"This much you know already, I know, but you don't know the whole story. Other than us, only the Neras do now, and they'd rarely speak of it. Because this galaxy, this universe that we charted, we did so without the Secrets."

:They did what?: Mary's voice was incredulous, but also impossibly excited. The surge of emotion from your viewing partner was almost enough that you missed the next sentence. A reply from the Teel.

"What do you mean?" They asked.

"I mean that before this empire that you know, before we were teachers, before we could step between stars at the flick of a switch, we were explorers of a universe that chained our explorations to the speed of light."

The Teel simply stared, no doubt as stunned as you all felt, and the Shiplord kept talking. "We learned how to extend our lifespans, splicing and changing our genetic structure until we could enter a form of cryptobiotic stasis for millennia, waking only when our ship systems required us to do so. And one day, we found a species that we'd come to know as the Consolat.

"They looked inwards as we did out, searching for answers to the universe amidst a deeply philosophical science that we never properly understood. Perhaps if we had, ah," the Shiplord sighed. "They were the first race we met who we found a connection to, young one. The first race that sought to understand us, to talk to us, and in time to come and live among us. We were close enough in evolution to do that, and modifications made by our own sciences allowed us to bridge the gap further.

"They looked at our wonder for the world, our desire to seek distant wonders and far-flung stars, and they smiled and gave us a name. A name that all except the Neras call us."

"Shiplords," the Teel said. They took a shaky step back, and almost fell into an odd-looking chair. "That's why you call yourselves that?"

"It is hard to explain even now how deeply the Consolat touched our race, even millions of cycles later." The old - somehow they felt old - Shiplord chuckled. "And we'd never realise it until it was far too late."

"What happened to them?" the Teel asked, and the Shiplord sighed again, an awful sadness gathering around them. They touched another button, and the image jumped, the orientation of the galaxy shifting. You weren't sure how far it had gone, though.

:A little over half a million cycles.: Iris reported. :Closer to six hundred thousand than five.:

"We shared the universe for over half a million cycles," the Shiplord said sorrowfully, wistfully. You felt Iris' surge of satisfaction, but she restrained it well, focusing on the now. "We came together, learning, charting, showing them what we'd found and learning from what it told them. But no matter how much we learned, we couldn't breach the chains of light's cage.

"We could only ever explore so much, only ever see so much of the endless beauty of the galaxy. It made us sad, and that made our friends sad. So they set out to find a way to change it," the Shiplord's voice cracked with emotion. "And they succeeded."

:Wait a second,: Elil sent. :Did they just-"

The Shiplord continued. "They promised us an answer, a solution, a way that we could see more of reality and understand it. We thought little of it at first, perhaps it would be another way of seeing the world, a philosophical framework that could satisfy our wanderlust. If only it had been so simple…

"Instead," the Shiplord paused, marshalling their words. "One day, a few decades short of five hundred and seventy centuries since our first meeting, every single Consolat life ended. One moment they were there, across the few worlds we'd come to make and share as our own. Then they were gone. And with their death came the Secrets."

The Teel started to speak, asking a question, but it was forgotten in the roaring of blood in your ears, and the stunned silence of your fellows. You'd started to guess that something had made the Secrets, maybe someone, maybe an Uninvolved of some type, billions of years ago. But if this was true…you shoved the logic chain away, trying to force it to continue running in the background for now. Later, later.

"When those who'd been left behind on Origin found our worlds a decade later," the Shiplord said, answering a question you'd missed about how the Shiplords had reacted, "travelling on First Secret drives so primitive that you'd barely credit them with the word, they found us cast adrift. Lost, until their messages brought us understanding. Our friends had left their archives behind, all their work, and those of our people left behind had been able to find some answers.

"Never a full one, never one to the greatest question of why they'd vanished. But enough to unlock the beginnings of the Secrets, and to recognise the dangers and vast responsibility we'd been given. It was only the initial dangers, not the real ones, not yet. But it was enough of a purpose for the people we were then to grasp it with both hands. We were the only race other than the Neras with First Secret technology for several centuries, and we used that time wisely."

"But how does that explain what you're doing now?" The Teel demanded. "We didn't fight and die for a history lesson, teacher. We did so for answers."

"And I'm trying to give you them," the Shiplord said. "But you need to understand the background first. You've been to our Sorrows, you've seen our mistakes, and you fought to help us contain the last one. But you never were able to understand them, because we hid some of the truth. I know you've wondered why the First Sorrow was so destructive to us at a cultural level, and the Second doesn't really answer that question."

"No," the Teel agreed. "It doesn't."

"Then allow me to rectify that," the Shiplord said. Another gesture and the space around them filled with stills. Nebular clusters, young stars, the roaring hunger and hawking fountains of black holes. Life flowering across hundreds of worlds, the barren mountains of those that would never feel its presence.

"When the Consolat were taken from us, they left behind a legacy that could shatter creation. They gave us the ability to break the cage of light, to seed life on dead worlds and to tap the very stars. But those very same things were also capable of becoming weapons. With the Consolat gone we were the only race with real information on how their Secrets worked.

"Perhaps we could've shared that burden better, in the early days, but we weren't the people you knew then. For all our age, we were terribly uncertain what the right choices might be. All we could agree on was the need to protect the reality we'd always seen as so beautiful from the unintended - we hoped - side effects of what the Consolat had given their existence to provide."

"That's why the War of the Sphere's ending affected you so deeply," The Teel said. "You'd seen something like it before."

"Yes." You barely heard the reply, it was so quiet. "And why we reacted so badly to what the Gysians tried to do. The Secrets had been given to us, to reality, through sacrifice. And they were going to abuse them at the cost of everything. And then the Sphere did abuse them, and one of those we'd taught hundreds of thousands of cycles before today stepped in to prevent it."

"Wasn't that a good thing?" It was a good question, and the followup made you like this long-dead Teel more. "Wouldn't more guards, more protectors, have helped you?"

"That would have required us to trust them," the Shiplord sighed. "It was my hope, young one, that one day we could've shared it with you. But the Authority has already voted, and that amendment never made it far."

"I'm sorry to hear that," the Teel said sadly. "What now, then?"

"You will be given leave to explore the truth of our beginnings," the Shiplord said. "To visit the Consolat Origin and read the archives there. I hope and would pray for you to find something there that we have not, for that is the only way that the Authority will turn from the course that has been decided. You sought a challenge against us to find answers, and that will be given."

"But you won't turn away?"

"I'm not sure we can." The Shiplord turned away, tapping a final sequence on the pad. "But if you think you can succeed where we have failed, then this is the place you must go."

A set of coordinates formed above the table, parsed in Shiplord standard. And around it formed the shape of a star system. One star, five planets and two asteroid belts. Surprisingly mundane really, for a system that had reshaped the galaxy.

And now you knew where it was.

"Then go there we shall," the Teel answered.

The vision of the meeting broke apart, shattering into streamers of light, each one lancing out across the stars. One dove towards the coordinates you'd just seen, full of fragile hope and desperate curiosity. Two more retreated back towards feelings of home, full of regret for a universe descending into madness.

The rest split away too fast for you to track, except for one more, that descended down into the straining foundations of a terribly wounded nation. It took root there, growing and bringing those around it closer, a desire for resistance and a will to have hope for the future even if there was none for them.

Belief that a better day could come, and that all they had to do was leave behind the tools to make it real. And acceptance for how they'd never be alive to see it. The Shiplords couldn't be healed by the Teel'sanha, but one day, there'd be someone who could.

Maybe that was meant to be you. You weren't sure how you'd be able to do that, there still wasn't enough time. But maybe…

:They were waiting for someone who understood the science of the soul,: Mary sent. A singular focus had overwhelmed her usually boundless curiosity. And you…felt something in that sending. A flicker, and then another, below the measure of normal awareness but just within your own.

:Someone who could see something they only glimpsed,: your friend continued. :Enough for them to build this place, but not enough for them to do anything with it.:

:But what?:
Vega asked, and you felt Mary's impatience well before her words.

:Something in the archive that the Consolat left to the Shiplords,: she replied :Something that the Shiplords never found, and that the Teel'sanha couldn't do more than realise was there. This place was made to wait for someone who could see in a way that neither of them could. That's why it let us in.:

:What do you mean?:
The world took shape around you again, the dark panels, low table and tangible presence of ancient power. Like you'd never left.

:The Shiplord delegate said it,: Mary pointed out. :The Consolat looked inwards like the Shiplords did out. They searched the world inside of them, whilst the Shiplords explored everything that was beyond that. I think the Teel'sanha must have been similar to the Shiplords in that, but wouldn't that make sense? They'd been taught by them, moulded, even if it wasn't entirely deliberate.:

:Just like everyone else the Shiplords would ever trust in the Sorrows,:
Kalilah's voice was sharp with pain. :Anyone who might have been able to see the deeper meanings never made it that far. Or just…didn't exist.:

:Until now,:
Iris said, voice small as the scale of this started to sink in. :They believed there was a chance that someone might find this place, one day. And now we're here, and we know. And we aren't like the Shiplords - none of us. We look out at the world, at its wonders, but the greatest of them have always been said to lie within. Look at our literature, our culture, everything that we treasure at the deepest levels. It's inwards facing. We look out to extend it, to defend it.:

:We're like the Consolat,:
you finished for your daughter, and a surge of fierce agreement flooded through you. :Not as old, not as wise. But how we see the world is similar.:
Just
:I think so,: Iris said, nodding minutely through her Masque.

:Then…: you trailed off, and in that moment the interface spoke again.

"Further data required?"

:We should ask for information about the Teel'sanha, and this place.: Vega said quickly. :It's what we need most, to understand them and their reasons. To make sure that we're right.:

:Agreed.:
The affirmative pulsed from all across a fluttering moment. :But then what?:

The answers to the immediate questions came in the form of the informational posts you've already read. What would you like to do after receiving those answers?
[] Ask more of the interface?
- [] Write in (ping me for approval)

[] Return to the Hearthguard memorial to
- [] Witness
- [] Remember

[] Return to the
Adamant to assess and plan your next move.

If you return to the
Adamant you will not be able to return to the Last Memory.
 
This one took a while to get right, and I really hope I've managed it. There is a lot of information in this update, and I would advise rereading if you're not quite sure of things because it's important. I'm...struggling to put into words how hard it has been to not just outright say any of this for the last several years, and how it feels to finally be able to do so.

Huge thanks as always to my betas @Baughn and @Coda, and to you all for reading.

Happy voting!
 
While I was helping proofread, I realized what my vote would be, so I'm going to go ahead and post it now:

[x] Return to the Hearthguard memorial to
- [x] Remember

We can always come back here afterward. I feel like there's too broad a scope of possibilities to know what to ask right now, and we might find something at the memorial that we need help understanding.
 
The most tragic aspect of this to me, is the Shiplords forced the same type of sacrifice the Consolat made on the Dragons, at least going off the information we have on where it came from in the first thread.
 
Seems at least a few of my previous musings were on point. Of course, I've been so scattershot with my suggestions I'm not sure how much of an accomplishment that amounts to!

So, the Lament don't quite lay it all out explicitly what happened after this meeting, but the implication from the surrounding context is that they wouldn't/couldn't do what was necessary to defeat the Shiplords by force of arms, and they ran into the same issue the Shiplords had where...

Oh, it was just like the dragons, wasn't it? The dragons had an idea of something, but while the Consolat might have had longer to learn and grow and engage with the possibility, it had literally never been done before. The Consolat archive is fundamentally incomplete, because the Consolat didn't even have Secrets as a starting point to familiarize themselves with. And however perfect the resulting gift, it was fundamentally impossible to test all the consequences for it from the position where they were standing.

And whatever's at the Origin, the Shiplords and the Teel'sanha couldn't find any way to fix however many million miles of inaccessible soul-based plumbing that makes that gift work. And with the political will of the Shiplords swinging inexorably to limiting the possibility of another Hjiven or Gysian type incident, and the Shiplords flush with a monopoly on force the likes of which seemed impossible to break if the Shiplords just... used it, their political class just inexorably lead the march towards genocidal hegemony.

And of course, when you lay it out like that it sounds like, hey, maybe they needed humans and Practice for a viable alternative. The Lament couldn't find anyone up to it, couldn't live with waiting indefinitely in what seemed an endless challenge in a universe under the Shiplord boot. And obviously, if anyone can actually push out some patches in the workings of the secrets, it would be Amanda's team, but...

This didn't have to happen. How many species had the tools that the Lament and Shiplords lacked, but never survived to put them to use? There's even another one in the galaxy right now, we met them during Second Contact! But they'd never get a Shiplord to tell these secrets, and they'd never make it into the Last Memory without getting a genocidal stomping. Without Practice it would have been really hard but it was really hard for the Consolat too! If it took them a hundred millenia or more, it could still be worth it! How many potential helpers have the Shiplords slaughtered or driven to go Uninvolved by now?

And all these stupid memorials and they go out of their way to not even let the galaxy remember the name of the species that created the Secrets??? Only ever speaking of it once in recorded galactic history? Could any of this, from the very start, have been what the Shiplords' old friends really wanted? It sure doesn't seem like it.

Edit: I really can't imagine it would be worth it to go back to the memorial. It's clear by this point that we won't get anything important from them. We need answers from the Consolat - no point getting another round of apologia. With the information posts filling in the story from the Teel side, however nice it is that the Hearthguard are trying they're still being Shiplords in the process. There's no chance the meeting we just saw and the crux of why the Teel really became the Lament will receive any honest explanation.

I'll throw in behind asking more from the Memory if anyone has an idea, but otherwise...

[] Return to the Adamant to assess and plan your next move.
 
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@Snowfire how feasible does Amanda think it is that the Shiplords might be under the effect of a decaying unmaintained social Artifact that their culture has long since ceased to properly interlock into? As in, if the Consolat did something like the Circles and then all sacrificed themselves to make the Secrets leaving the effect to grind into malfunction over the eons.
 
Huh. The Consolat ended up being more than a friend species of the Shiplords. It felt like by the end there were almost in a symbiotic relationship with the Shiplords and both their peoples had melded together to form two halves of a united society/culture.

No wonder the loss of the Consolat is such a trauma for the Shiplords and no wonder the Shiplords became increasingly neurotic about maintaining control over the use of the Secrets after the first and second Sorrows.

They've basically had the introspective half of their society ripped out in their most formative period and have been operating as a society with a gaping hole that's been barely covered.
 
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Here's a theory I've been working on before I even got to the "Consulat made Secrets" part of the update. What if every Uninvolved made a Secret, not just the Consulat? So every time a species reaches the point in can make itself Uninvolved it "makes" a Secret, something with reality bending properties and everytime that happens it puts another weapon in the hands of the younger races that they could use to destroy the universe. That's why the Shiplords need to be so heavy handed with their policing, not just to stop races from breaking the universe, but also to stop them becoming Uninvolved and thus making more Secrets that need to be policed.
 
[X] Ask more of the interface?
-[X] Write in (ping me for approval)
Asking for @Snowfire's approval for the following questions:

  1. What exactly is the problem that the Shiplords wish solved? Is it really just the question of how to protect the stars from Secret abuse, or is there something else?
  2. What did you (Teel and Shiplord) discover at the Consulat Origin?
  3. Do you know why our best scientist, the one who has delved deeper into the Secrets than any other, felt such a visceral, instinctive revulstion at the First Sorrow, one that even she believed was unusual?
  4. Did the Consulat create all of the Secrets that we know (First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh)? Do you know of more, and what they do?
  5. Do you know how the Shiplords find species? Is there some sort of galactic monitor that records when a species discovers / uses a Secret for the first time?
  6. Do you have anything that we can take home to help protect our people from a Shiplord progrom?
Ultimately what I'm trying to do is shorten the amount of time we need to spend at the Origin, since that's ultimately where we have to go, doing basic research: the Shiplords and the Teel have both likely spent thousands of cycles (and in SL's case millions) researching, cataloging, and iterating on what must be a research archive of unimaginable scale, and we just don't have time to reinvent whatever wheels and bridges that the Teel and Shiplords have already forged.

Also, it'd also be nice to get a goodie bag to take home with us. :V ...I mean, a whole lot of people have died already, and it'd be nice if we could save some of them. :(
The most tragic aspect of this to me, is the Shiplords forced the same type of sacrifice the Consolat made on the Dragons, at least going off the information we have on where it came from in the first thread.
Not forced, but the Consulat saw how the Shiplords yearned to see the entire universe, not just the bit they could travel to at relativistic speeds, and created at least the First Secret to let them get there. They probably didn't realize that they were all going to kill themselves in doing so, or they'd have held off a bit, if only to help the Shiplords prepare for their departure.

Here's a theory I've been working on before I even got to the "Consulat made Secrets" part of the update. What if every Uninvolved made a Secret, not just the Consulat? So every time a species reaches the point in can make itself Uninvolved it "makes" a Secret, something with reality bending properties and everytime that happens it puts another weapon in the hands of the younger races that they could use to destroy the universe. That's why the Shiplords need to be so heavy handed with their policing, not just to stop races from breaking the universe, but also to stop them becoming Uninvolved and thus making more Secrets that need to be policed.
I kind of hope that not all Uninvolved create a new Secret; if so there would be thousands, maybe millions, out there, each one possibly making the universe that much more fragile.

"How dare you profane that gift and persist," they said. It has been more than four years, but at long last we know exactly what gift they believe we are profaning, and we know that they are wrong.
I mean, at this point I'm still stuck on: "Nice motive; still murder." Fundamentally I'm just not impressed with the Space Nazi's pain: they've voted themselves into being an authoritarian, omnicidal, xenophobic polity, whose "final solution" policy of mass-slaughtering weaker species in order to stock up on god-killer weapons, and then sort of arbitrarily turning others into weird, crippled zoo exhibits in order to drive them to commit mass-suicide, doesn't even fundamentally solve the problem that it's purporting to solve. Hell, I'm kind of shocked that this whole regime hasn't already ended the universe simply to spite these awful people and their genocidal pogroms, or that one of the Uninvolved hasn't done so given that the entirety of the current crop got there from generations of their people suffering under the worst atrocities.

Never have I ever heard a bigger lie than "For all that I am, I am not your enemy," uttered by a Shiplord Tribute Fleet captain. I'm sure we're going to find in Vega's data from the First Sorrow something that makes the Shiplords at least partially tragic--at the moment I'm thinking something along the lines of the Shiplords accidentally group-Practicing themselves into Shiplords 2.0, Nazi Edition by taking the exact wrong lesson from the First Sorrow and reflecting it back on itself over and over for a million cycles--but unless we find something there that completely removed their agency and turned them into enslaved automatons (in which case Kisa couldn't exist so I doubt it), there's still a lot of Shiplords that will deserve at best to be sentenced to death for the good of the universe.
 
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This one took a while to get right, and I really hope I've managed it. There is a lot of information in this update, and I would advise rereading if you're not quite sure of things because it's important. I'm...struggling to put into words how hard it has been to not just outright say any of this for the last several years, and how it feels to finally be able to do so.

Huge thanks as always to my betas @Baughn and @Coda, and to you all for reading.

Happy voting!

You're talking about the Skin. Or is it Skein? Just like all of Warhammer is talking about the Wyld. Only you are willing to let people in and deal with the big problem while Games Workshop just milks it for money.

There is no such thing as a singleton in these matters, yet most of sci-fi I've read over the years only ever considers a singleton when even at the most basic there are ten to Grasp.

I'll explain this better sometime later, but for right now understand we have found out that the Consolat are the Old Ones of this Universe.

Never have I ever heard a bigger lie than "For all that I am, I am not your enemy," uttered by a Shiplord Tribute Fleet captain. I'm sure we're going to find in Vega's data from the First Sorrow something that makes the Shiplords at least partially tragic--at the moment I'm thinking something along the lines of the Shiplords accidentally group-Practicing themselves into Shiplords 2.0, Nazi Edition by taking the exact wrong lesson from the First Sorrow and reflecting it back on itself over and over for a million cycles--but unless we find something there that completely removed their agency and turned them into enslaved automatons (in which case Kisa couldn't exist so I doubt it), there's still a lot of Shiplords that will deserve at best to be sentenced to death for the good of the universe.

Tragedy is defined by having villain protagonists, so even if they are tragic, they are still villains.
 
Tragedy is defined by having villain protagonists, so even if they are tragic, they are still villains.
Romeo and Juliet aren't villains; they're just stupid kids.
Hamlet? Othello? Debatable. Both trusted the wrong person and were goaded into murder, but it's hard to call them evil compared to others in the story.
King Lear and Macbeth? I'll grant them as villains, but in both cases there were far worse villains driving them too.

Overall though I'd say that calling tragic figures villains is a bit off the mark. What makes a figure tragic is that the flaw that causes their fall is relatable; you can see someone being a stupid kid like Romeo, or going way too far to get revenge for your father's death like Hamlet, or being ambitious and reaching for the crown like Macbeth, or being a bit boneheaded and thinking that rhetorical ability correlates to genuine affection like King Lear.

The Shiplords, though, are still not relatably flawed, at least not for me. It's not just the scale and scope of how many they've murdered, although the scale is unimaginably monstrous. It's not just the lack of specificity, the way that they seem not merely inured to the way their methods result in trillions of innocent deaths but seem to revel in maximizing the number of innocents massacred, although that too is sickening. It's not even the religiousity of the chosen methods of Tribute and infiltration, the rock-solid belief in the righteousness of their xenocidal progroms that have marginalized dissent and ensured that the eureka moment that Kicha is about to spring on the Authority won't bring an immediate halt to their campaigns; hell, given what's been going on in politics lately pretty much forever that last one is almost relatable.

What gets me is that the Shiplords' current methodology, the systematic pogroms, followed by oppression of the survivors, seems tailor-made to cause exactly the kind of resentment and spite that gave rise to the Sorrows in the first place. The Shiplords seem to have decided, "Hey, the Gysians and the Hijivians irrationally hated us, and tried to destroy the universe to spite us. We don't understand why they did that, so to solve the problem let's deliberately engender the wrathful ire of thousands of species all across the galaxy. What could possibly go wrong?"

It's as if someone, while attempting to use a hammer to hang a picture, accidentally misses the nail and puts a hole in his wall, twice. In response, he decides to pick up a sledgehammer and starts swinging wildly at every wall in his house. How exactly is this supposed to fix the problem?

I know that I'm missing something fundamental here, but I'm not quite sure what. How did the Shiplords decide that their current actions could be anything but a gigantic disaster in the making, and frankly why hasn't their current strategy not spectacularly failed and doomed the universe yet?
 
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Romeo and Juliet aren't villains; they're just stupid kids.
Hamlet? Othello? Debatable. Both trusted the wrong person and were goaded into murder, but it's hard to call them evil compared to others in the story.
King Lear and Macbeth? I'll grant them as villains, but in both cases there were far worse villains driving them too.

Overall though I'd say that calling tragic figures villains is a bit off the mark. What makes a figure tragic is that the flaw that causes their fall is relatable; you can see someone being a stupid kid like Romeo, or going way too far to get revenge for your father's death like Hamlet, or being ambitious and reaching for the crown like Macbeth, or being a bit boneheaded and thinking that rhetorical ability correlates to genuine affection like King Lear.

I agree with what you said on Shiplords in this post, but I want to clarify that yes I do consider stupid kids villainous. A petty sort of villainy, but villainy all the same.

Also Hamlet and Othello don't protect themselves from themselves and that is evil and makes them villains as well.

And finally just because a story has worse villains doesn't suddenly make the villain protagonists not evil. Just less evil.
 
It's as if someone, while attempting to use a hammer to hang a picture, accidentally misses the nail and puts a hole in his wall, twice. In response, he decides to pick up a sledgehammer and starts swinging wildly at every wall in his house. How exactly is this supposed to fix the problem?
Also, they refuse to discuss with anyone the fact that they're trying to hang a picture, only answering "why are you swinging this sledgehammer around" with "this is the only way" or "if you have a better idea I'd love to hear it." Their house is regularly visited by people who hang paintings professionally, but they never actually find out because they're too focused on the sledgehammer.
I agree with what you said on Shiplords in this post, but I want to clarify that yes I do consider stupid kids villainous. A petty sort of villainy, but villainy all the same.

Also Hamlet and Othello don't protect themselves from themselves and that is evil and makes them villains as well.
This sounds like it's more about where you personally perceive villainy than it is about tragedy as a genre.
 
"How dare you profane that gift and persist," they said. It has been more than four years, but at long last we know exactly what gift they believe we are profaning, and we know that they are wrong.
I think that's a big part of the tragic of the SL: They got a gift from their friends which cost them their existence as far as the SL could see, and then they discovered that they could use the gift but didn't understand it really. And others could, too - use it to destroy everything. And it was the SLs fault for getting the gift but not understanding it; if they had never bothered the Consolat so much all this would never have happened (at least I think that's the SLs trauma, even if that interpretation is lacking). But because the problem exist because of them it's on them to make sure it isn't a problem that ends existence. We know where that downward spiral ended.
I know that I'm missing something fundamental here, but I'm not quite sure what. How did the Shiplords decide that their current actions could be anything but a gigantic disaster in the making, and frankly why hasn't their current strategy not spectacularly failed and doomed the universe yet?
Because they didn't see another solution that didn't risk existence. That lack of perception is at the root of the whole SL dilemma.
 
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Yeah I don't think too badly for the Shiplords screwing the pooch-ultimately it's like asking a Warrior or a Fighter to cast a World-changing Ritual.
It's out of their field and even for those IN their field, it's extremely difficult to manage.
It DOES feel a tad hare-brained for the Consolat to do that but…
Well.
The real question is how does Amanda proper humanity replace the Consolat, in effect?
 
Consolat: So, you're facing an overwhelming emotional crisis where everyone is isolated from everyone else?
Shiplords: No, we're just a little distressed by the speed of light thing. We want to reach every star!
Consolat: Right, because there could be new friends there.
Shiplords: ...I mean, we have a friend.
Consolat: You collectively have one (1) friend, but you also aren't collectively even a contiguous people because of the speed of light.
Shiplords: You're losing me here. And, I guess the Neras are cool?
Consolat: We have identified the problem, and are somewhat concerned you can't. Let's fix this!
Shiplords: *Are united as a contiguous people by a horrifying experience of species-wide loss and grief that traumatizes them*
Shiplords: *Do NOT look inwards to resolve their trauma, and instead look outwards, where they do NOT find new friends due to trauma*
Shiplords: *Start to inflict horrifying species-wide loss and grief on others as their go to social tool because healing from it is unthinkable*
Consolat: Okay, I know we're long, long dead at this point, but PLEASE STOP!!!
 
I'm not sure what your argument here is? Could you elaborate?
The problem is that this sort of view:
I agree with what you said on Shiplords in this post, but I want to clarify that yes I do consider stupid kids villainous. A petty sort of villainy, but villainy all the same.

Also Hamlet and Othello don't protect themselves from themselves and that is evil and makes them villains as well.

And finally just because a story has worse villains doesn't suddenly make the villain protagonists not evil. Just less evil.
just results in inappropriately labeling people as evil. Tragic figures who are guilty of crimes of passion, stupid rich trust fund babies who weren't taught better and didn't have the life experience to know better, trusting idiots who trusted the wrong person, etc, are not evil, even if they may end up doing something wrong.

The larger issue is that, once you start down the road of labeling people "evil" who don't necessarily deserve it, well, that's precisely the issue with the Shiplords, isn't it? They found a couple of bad actors, got burned, and then decided that everyone they met for the rest of their existence were all evil monsters in disguise. If you kill everyone you meet because you think somebody might do something wrong at some point in the future, well there's not going to be a whole lot of people left, are there?
 
A couple things regarding the latest discussion:
I suspect there are a lot more political complexities under the surface of the Shiplord Assembly than we have any idea exist at the moment, and that will probably be important later if we try to manage a not-purely-force-based solution... which is the whole point of this overall arc.
Second...
I know that I'm missing something fundamental here, but I'm not quite sure what. How did the Shiplords decide that their current actions could be anything but a gigantic disaster in the making, and frankly why hasn't their current strategy not spectacularly failed and doomed the universe yet?
Generally, the thing to do there is re-examine your axioms. In this case, the idea that the Shiplords' actions (which we know have changed over time, and which we also know we don't know enough about them) are deterministically a disaster in the making. Horrifically evil, and a perversion of the values that they previously espoused? Yes. That it's lasted this long without causing a disaster* suggests that it is in fact not a "gigantic disaster in the making".
Also, I suspect that the dominant Shiplord faction is not great at thinking in terms that make them recall what the Consolat actually were.

*And that the current potential failure is due to something probably unforeseeable by the dominant Shiplord mentality.
 
Also, I suspect that the dominant Shiplord faction is not great at thinking in terms that make them recall what the Consolat actually were.
That's where the long history plays a role: after this long it's quite easy to believe that there aren't any original thoughts/ideas left, and 'visiting the Sorrows' is like an Atheist going to church on Christmas because it's what you do; and it's a reinforcement of 'we couldn't do anything differently' - because for literal millions of years no-one found an alternate solution. So they bear the SLs hard burden, knowing that there isn't an alternative but that only their noble sacrifice keeps existence existing.
 
Remember, the Teel'sanha, close friends of the Shiplords, did the "outside perspective" thing and failed.

The Shiplords probably also tried bringing other species/polities to the Sorrows. The results were almost certainly either "nothing" or "something went wrong, they tried to destroy the galaxy, and we had to exterminate the entire species."

It's easy to justify not repeating an experiment when the result of the last time you tried was "and then we had to exterminate the entire species" with a side of "and some of our best friends couldn't do it either".

Is it a mistake? In my opinion, yes: if things have gotten that bad that you're routinely subjugating or eliminating every new sapient species you find, it's probably better to keep hammering away at even the low-probability-of-success alternatives. Is it understandable, particularly as the creep of millions of years of steadily degrading conditions? Also yes.
 
The Shiplords probably also tried bringing other species/polities to the Sorrows. The results were almost certainly either "nothing" or "something went wrong, they tried to destroy the galaxy, and we had to exterminate the entire species."

That's what I expected the Fourth Sorrow to be - but that turned out not to be the case. So I guess I'm a bit unclear on why this is a Sorrow.

I guess that's a good question, even if it's probably not that important in the big scheme of things. The last polity that could have conceivably been a bit of a speedbump for Shiplord galactic hegemony became the Lament instead. Where do the Shiplords think they failed here? I mean, some of the Hearthguard might say they failed to listen to their objections or failed to trust them - but as an overall polity why do the Shiplords consider this a top five (plus one) Sorrow, system shields and all?

If they wanted to honor the Peoples and reinforce the futility of opposing the Shiplords, you'd think they might have left this open to the public. But they went full permanent masks on instead - kicked off the Tribute system, used their fleets like a hammer and made everything a nail forever.

And their new public persona was, well, mask off on the ethical rot even as they went masks on in public relations. The Fourth Sorrow was the last time they allowed anyone to approach the Shiplords on other terms - from then on, the Shiplords would be setting the terms of engagement without compromise. And the Fifth Sorrow was the last time they allowed any outsiders to perceive that the Shiplords might want another way, the last time they properly tried to engage in diplomacy at all.

Voting is open now, I think. And... while I still think the right choice is to ask questions of the Last Memory or leave, I think that it might be appropriate to Remember first. Witness will tell us the Shiplord version of events, but to Remember, and perhaps talk to some of the Shiplords before this starts to become about the Consolat and the Secrets...

Well, Amanda and the rest came here to open diplomacy up with the Shiplords by any means necessary. Now that there's not the big overlying trauma they refuse to explain being hidden from us, maybe we can shock some actual full honesty out of one of them, in their own words even, without having to use Practice to pull information out of the ether. If we can't believe it's possible to have an honest dialogue now, finally, then what are we even going to do when we get to the Origin?

Sure, maybe there's some bugs in the system that humanity could hopefully maybe patch (hi, vacuum collapse bombs, forcing the unwilling to join an uninvolved, whatever else we still don't know about might deserve to be on the list) but if we can't do diplomacy, the Shiplords will have their ridiculous military and no political will to listen to us rather than use their military might. (There could be more monsters. Humans and the group of five are the current monsters. Kill all the monsters, it's worked since forever.) What's left at that point? Smash things until hopefully the Secrets break, dooming interstellar civilization but ending a galactic scale war in a single blow? Give up and go home? Go full magical girl squad and try to alpha strike Shiplord political leadership? Let the war keep going, maintain Amanda's Shiplord guise and run for president of the Authority at the next election?

[X] Return to the Hearthguard memorial to
- [X] Remember
 
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