Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I mean, what if anything do we think we'll be able to get from the Doctor? We'll be trying to force him to betray one of his intimacies, in all likelihood. That will give him a willpower boost to resist.
Also, again. Given how likely it is that this is at least in part a ritual site or something, they will probably not be terribly keen on drawing attention from law enforcement, let alone calling them on site, unless they're very sure that they can control/corral them. It only takes one of them getting a little too curious…
 
Also, again. Given how likely it is that this is at least in part a ritual site or something, they will probably not be terribly keen on drawing attention from law enforcement
Why? A safety inspector, or someone posing as one, might disrupt whatever their physical preparations are, like weird wiring pattern forming a summoning circle. Police is unlikely to do so.
 
How did they murder him and when could they do so?
We literally know that he died from terminal cancer at least in our World which is trivial to solve for the Old Ones to solve for the person who gained the Direct attention of them by awakening them the way he did.
Along with that we do know he stopped writing at least in our World due to his declining health which does not seem to be something the Old Ones who allow. Thoughts?

n late 1936, he witnessed the publication of The Shadow over Innsmouth as a paperback book.[d] 400 copies were printed, and the work was advertised in Weird Tales and several fan magazines. However, Lovecraft was displeased, as this book was riddled with errors that required extensive editing. It sold slowly and only approximately 200 copies were bound. The remaining 200 copies were destroyed after the publisher went out of business for the next seven years. By this point, Lovecraft's literary career was reaching its end. Shortly after having written his last original short story, "The Haunter of the Dark", he stated that the hostile reception of At the Mountains of Madness had done "more than anything to end my effective fictional career". His declining psychological and physical states made it impossible for him to continue writing fiction.[12

On June 11, Robert E. Howard was informed that his chronically ill mother would not awaken from her coma. He walked out to his car and committed suicide with a pistol that he had stored there. His mother died shortly thereafter.[121] This deeply affected Lovecraft, who consoled Howard's father through correspondence. Almost immediately after hearing about Howard's death, Lovecraft wrote a brief memoir titled "In Memoriam: Robert Ervin Howard", which he distributed to his correspondents.[122] Meanwhile, Lovecraft's physical health was deteriorating. He was suffering from an affliction that he referred to as "grippe".[e][124]

Due to his fear of doctors, Lovecraft was not examined until a month before his death. After seeing a doctor, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer of the small intestine.[125] He remained hospitalized until he died. He lived in constant pain until his death on March 15, 1937, in Providence. In accordance with his lifelong scientific curiosity, he kept a diary of his illness until he was physically incapable of holding a pen.[126] Lovecraft was listed along with his parents on the Phillips family monument.
Magic, presumably.
I have no idea. Just that it is Word of Jim that he was killed in the Dresdenverse.

This ends with police being called on us. Or combat breaking out immediately. We might be able to push past the receptionist (and even that's not a given, depending of how competent she is, and how deep in the cult). We aren't getting out without combat, or with intel.
1)Ongoing criminal enterprises do not invite the cops in for fear of exposure.
Let alone an occult cult doing something thats time sensitive, and which requires avoiding excitement in its sacrifices.

2) Combat was always a possibility whenever we chose to step onto the grounds of a cult's prepared place of power,.
Its just more obvious now we know its a custom-designed occult site for Pathfinder use.

If cultist mutants are going to transform and attempt to jump us, or lesser Outsiders are going to be summoned?
Id rather engage in combat at 12/12 Essence and with the element of surprise than after having burned 2 Essence trying to get access to the doctor.

I mean, do you think we can go and intimidate the doctor in his place of power and just walk out?
That whatever his patron is will let us walk with no consequences? That he will simply let us walk out and make a phone call to Dresden in Chicago or the other Wardens in Boston or NYC?

3)I will refer you to the opening scene of Grave Peril, where Dresden and Michael burst into a hospital's nursery.
Without permission, without so much as a bye your leave.

With Dresden in a duster and carrying a staff, and Michael carrying a honking big sword and wearing a white cloak with a red cross.
These are big men, btw; Michael is six foot six, and Dresden is three inches taller.
Consider us lucky that Michael has moderated enough to be willing not to wear the cloak sometimes.
Why? A safety inspector, or someone posing as one, might disrupt whatever their physical preparations are, like weird wiring pattern forming a summoning circle. Police is unlikely to do so.
I guess you dont realize how long American police can linger on a scene and poke.
Or how an incident can bring family members to the nursing home for the rest of the night? How that excitement can agitate the residents, disrupting their ritual attempts?

Indications are they are on the clock. They want to keep things quiet.

More seriously, whats your failure state?
We try to intimidate the doctor, he laughs at us, and invites the receptionist to escort us out.
Whats your Plan B?

You are hanging entirely too much certitude on the idea that Molly can intimidate the servitors of a notRaksha/mythological monster successfully in their own place of power despite having no idea what their powers or aptitudes are.
 
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More seriously, whats your failure state?
I have to ask - what's yours? They call the police. Or a private security firm. Escort us from the premises and file a complaint. Only now they are aware that someone is poking. At least in my proposed scenario we have access to their (nominal, in charge of mundane-ish parts of the operation) leader.

I feel that you overestimate how well we can pass for a building inspector. Also, you don't account for hostages. As in, all the mortals in the complex are, or can be used, as hostages. If we at least get in a room alone with someone in charge, that's mitigated a bit. Like this? Yeah, we might walk away, but we are putting ourselves in a position of weakness.
You are hanging entirely too much certitude on the idea that Molly can intimidate the servitors of a notRaksha/mythological monster successfully in their own place of power despite having no idea what their powers or aptitudes are.
We are near the maximum of how intimidating someone can be at 14-16 effective dice. Unless he has perfects (possible, but unlikely), I feel it's reasonable to expect that we can, in fact, do it.

EDIT:
I mean, ideally, we'd force an evacuation of the building. Cause an electrical short (or, better yet, simulate one). Maybe imitate an earthquake (would Lydia be up to it?). Do something to get people out before we start the direct confrontation. Hmm... @DragonParadox do they keep their servers on-site and who does the maintenance / administration?
 
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I have to ask - what's yours? They call the police. Or a private security firm. Escort us from the premises and file a complaint. Only now they are aware that someone is poking. At least in my proposed scenario we have access to their (nominal, in charge of mundane-ish parts of the operation) leader.

I feel that you overestimate how well we can pass for a building inspector. Also, you don't account for hostages. As in, all the mortals in the complex are, or can be used, as hostages. If we at least get in a room alone with someone in charge, that's mitigated a bit. Like this? Yeah, we might walk away, but we are putting ourselves in a position of weakness.

We are near the maximum of how intimidating someone can be at 14-16 effective dice. Unless he has perfects (possible, but unlikely), I feel it's reasonable to expect that we can, in fact, do it.

EDIT:
I mean, ideally, we'd force an evacuation of the building. Cause an electrical short (or, better yet, simulate one). Maybe imitate an earthquake (would Lydia be up to it?). Do something to get people out before we start the direct confrontation. Hmm... @DragonParadox do they keep their servers on-site and who does the maintenance / administration?
1)They have no security by WoG. If they had private security they would be on site, not on phone call.
And we know they have no particular influence with the local police department.


2)I am confident of Molly's ability to Excellency her way out of trouble with mortal officers for something as minor as trespassing. When Dresden and Michael got arrested for trespassing on a hospital's nursery in Grave Peril, they were released the next morning and no charges were filed.

I am not confident of Molly's ability to intimidate unknown supernaturals in their place of power.


3)Plan A is entering the closed wing in search of whatever they brought onsite and forcing the issue.
Plan B is bringing Michael and the Sword into those ritual sites we have identified on the map and seeing the reaction.

Plan C is using the Crown on those sites once we are inside them and can see/perceive them with our own senses.
Plan D is setting off the fire alarm and let the sprinkler system send running water through a bunch of ritual sites, disrupting magic.
Plan E is getting the place evacuated by calling in an anonymous bomb threat.


4)I am trying to move fast enough to make the issue moot.

If he has additional forces on site, they are in the closed wing, and interdicting that removes the hostage contingency.
You are proposing sitting in his office and giving him time to do things like send telepathic messages to any forces he has around or just press buttons under his desk to activate a silent alarm.


5)Molly's father Michael is a carpenter and building contractor. He has professional experience with them.
I have complete confidence in their collective ability to look like a building inspector team if its necessary, even without magic.


6)No we are not.
An intimidation-specced Infernal would have Manipulation or Charisma 5, Intimidation 5 and Excellency 10 for 20 dice of social.
At chargen. Before charms.

We're okay. We're not anywhere near close to maxed out.


7) To give you my perspective?
W20 rules allow a Fomor to have superhuman Attributes if necessary. A Fomor with Charisma 8 and Subterfuge 5 has 13 base dice.

Five foot four Justine went from being manhandled by random vampires to punching through steel when she was invested by Nemesis, and Papa Raith got enough magic immunity to ignore the Blackstaff after doing a deal with an Outsider.
Some of these things have a lot of power to throw around.

Or, just sticking with ExWoD, and looking at the options available to major servants of major baddies?
ExWoD rules for Infernalist Exalts(and presumably anyone who has sufficient favor) that have sold their souls gives them
-Righteous Lion Defense free
-Immunity to mind control except by their master,
-Inhuman Potential, which raises their Attribute cap to 8, and Ability cap to 6, for a max of 14 dice.

In addition, Pearl Teeth and Amber Eyes Treatment, found in both ExWoD and Kindred of the East, gives 4 dots to distribute between Charisma and Appearance and another 8 dots to distribute between Empathy, Etiquette and Expression.

This is an agent of an Old One, from an apparently multigenerational family of cultists, that has been in his service, or under the influence of whoever is in his service, for decades. And important enough to be in charge of a breakout attempt.
You have no idea what he's walking around with under the hood.

Assuming we can just walk in and wave our dick around is unwise.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Nov 6, 2022 at 8:00 PM, finished with 37 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Incognito, once you are in his office you can have that chat
    -[X] Use excellency (Subterfuge) to gain access to the doctor without alerting anyone
    --[X] Stunt: You and Lydia enter the Soul's Rest reception area, Michael following you. As you move towards reception, it's easy to act nervous in a way you aren't. A shift in posture, a moment of hesitation where none really exists. By the time you "muster the courage" to ask the receptionist if you could see the director of the facility about admitting your old Nana, she should be firmly convinced there's no risk in it.
    -[X] Use Excellency (Intimidation) when talking to the doctor
    --[X] As you enter the office of your target, his secretary leaving you alone, and closing the door behind you, your presence shifts. It is not a child of a distraught family that stands before him. It is someone who even his master should avoid, if it has enough mind to do so, lest it becomes the sacrifice on the altar of your epic tale. He, either a mortal or something who was once mortal, cannot do so, trapped as he is in the same room with you. The only option left for him is to offer his unconditional assistance.
    [X] Break in to the place 'under renovation'
    -[X]Subterfuge Excellency if necessary to blag receptionist
    -[X]STUNT: The receptionist looks up and freezes as you loom over her desk, hardhat on head and clipboard in hand, while radiating surety and authority. "Hello there miss..."you say with a brilliant smile while, putting on a show of peering at her nametag "....Sophie? Sophie. Me and my team are here to take a look at the building work. Make sure everything remains up to code for elder care." As her eyes go from Michael's blue collar bulk to rest on Lydia's slighter form, both in high vis jackets and hardhats, you whisper conspiratorially "Intern." You reach over the counter and grab a key card and a couple visitor cards. "We'll be starting with the wing with the construction work. We know the way."
 
What would be some existing examples of DF canon things that would be perfect attacks/defenses? I don't have the best feel for how widespread such things would be. I feel like it's safe to assume that things like Perfect mind-control at least would be rather rare, because I don't recall whether Michael or Lydia have Perfect mental defenses.
I can't find where Lydia's sheet is (do we even have access to it yet?), but beefy mental defenses seem like something that the Sword would give its wielder. That said, I'd rather not have to fight either of them.
What does happen if a Sword's wielder is mind-controlled?
Also, do we have any means to prevent our mental defense from being dispelled/disrupted/disabled?
 
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What would be some existing examples of DF canon things that would be perfect attacks/defenses? I don't have the best feel for how widespread such things would be. I feel like it's safe to assume that things like Perfect mind-control at least would be rather rare, because I don't recall whether Michael or Lydia have Perfect mental defenses.
I can't find where Lydia's sheet is (do we even have access to it yet?), but beefy mental defenses seem like something that the Sword would give its wielder. That said, I'd rather not have to fight either of them.
What does happen if a Sword's wielder is mind-controlled?
Also, do we have any means to prevent our mental defense from being dispelled/disrupted/disabled?
There are no canon examples in DF of perfect attacks I can think of.
Perfect defense? Mab vs Ethniu in Battlegrounds maybe.
But Im not sure of that even.

Sword wielders cant be mindcontrolled. Thats a flat no. You can frighten them, intimidate them, try to persuade them, prevent them from physically moving maybe, but you cannot take away the will of a Sword wielder in possession of their Sword.
And the Sword will sometimes exert an AoE effect to protect other people around it.

Our mental defenses are fiat Charm based. Shouldnt be touchable, because Defence Primacy.
There are mechanics in ExWoD for dispelling charm effects if you are playing a Mage game and so choose, but I dont think they apply here against our personal defenses.
 
[x] uju32

Generally underpaid workers (unless you think they're big enough to have someone in the know as the receptionist) really aren't in the business of doublechecking ID lol. Show up with boots and a hard hat and you're good to go lol.
 
I do not see a reason not go for Intimidation. We can easily hit 5 success IE, you are so scary people can have heart attacks level of scary.
Because we have had very little luck at getting detailed information on our opposition, and have been forced back on deduction.
Reading the room, so to speak.

This is not a cheap or easy project.WoG is they built this place from scratch. Just building the facility from scratch would have cost double digit millions, let alone the premium land costs on the lake shoreline, furnishing, licensing, staffing and bureaucracy and other stuff. There's good odds they are running this place at a financial loss to attract victims, and thats just the mortal side.

Never mind the actual supernatural ritual business.

You dont go to all that trouble, all that expense and have it run by a scrub. And Niemi's history suggests he's a 3rd gen cultist.
Either Niemi is Serious Business, or he's a meat puppet for someone who is. Either way, he's unlikely to simply fold because we rolled Intimidation. Especially not in the heart of his power, inside a building designed to amplify it.

Again, look at the Reds.
They do intimidation quite well. They can outrun any blowback by going home. They have declined to barge in here.
Consider why that is.

Its worth reading the room.
 
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Consider why that is.
Most likely because they want to take advantage of the situation. However, we should go and ask. We know that we can intimidate the reds. We should ask them why they haven't attacked yet, if they are here to stop the summoning.
They do intimidation quite well.
Nowhere near as well as we can, however.
1)They have no security by WoG. If they had private security they would be on site, not on phone call.
And we know they have no particular influence with the local police department.
According to documents they have no one hired as security. It's very possible that their medical personnel doubles as security. Or they'll throw enthralled mortals at us - and we have very little in the way of non-lethal takedowns.

And no, we don't know that they have no one in the police department. We can infer it, a bit, but we don't precisely know it.
2)I am confident of Molly's ability to Excellency her way out of trouble with mortal officers for something as minor as trespassing. When Dresden and Michael got arrested for trespassing on a hospital's nursery in Grave Peril, they were released the next morning and no charges were filed.
And while we are BSing our way out of the jail (and, by the way, isn't Lydia still a minor? Can we get her out? We are not related to her legally, and she's not emancipated yet, I think), they do their whole ritual.
Plan E is getting the place evacuated by calling in an anonymous bomb threat.
This, honestly, should be plan A, and we should be moving from there. A bomb threat, or having their on-site servers combust / break. @DragonParadox who is responsible for maintaining their internal information infrastructure? Their medical equipment, patient databases, their site, their cameras?
If he has additional forces on site, they are in the closed wing, and interdicting that removes the hostage contingency.
You are proposing sitting in his office and giving him time to do things like send telepathic messages to any forces he has around or just press buttons under his desk to activate a silent alarm.
Neither plan currently addresses hostages at all. They don't need additional hidden supernatural forces to take mortal elderly people hostage.
Assuming we can just walk in and wave our dick around is unwise.
By the same reasoning the receptionist, who is likely also a cultist, as, unlike in a normal organization, handling reception and contact with outside world would be one of the crucial positions for a hidden cult, also has supernatural stats. And the medical personnel are our combat peers. And we'd be walking into a trap.
 
The doctor's secretary.
...One person is responsible for everything? Ok... This raises rather a ton of questions from the perspective of someone who is tngentially aware of what it takes to run a technological facility in the 21st century:
1) What kind of medical equipment do they have? Specifically, medical equipment connected to the network. Diagnostic (like EEG, ultrasonic diagnostics, etc) and treatment equipment (like auto-masseurs, tanning booths, etc).
2) What is the actual amount of computer-connected equipment that they use? Hardware-wise. I.e. do they have a separate server room with a 19'' rack that houses the servers, or is everything run from a tabletop computer in the secretary's office?
3) Do they use any proprietary software besides Windows / Office? Or are they exclusively open source / freeware based?
4) Does the secretary have appropriate qualifications? Certificates for maintaining stuff. Would they be voiding the warranty on the equipment if the secretary does any repairs themselves?
 
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It's a small business in 2006. Their computer is a aging Windows XP box running software designed in the late 90s set up by a local "computer firm" which is a guy and his son working out of a store in Main Street. The medical equipment that exist will not be networked and results mostly shared through printouts stapled into patients files.

You guys keep forgetting how much digitisation has happened over the past 15 years. 2006 is very much a different era in information technology, especially in small-town America.
 
...One person is responsible for everything? Ok... This raises rather a ton of questions from the perspective of someone who is tngentially aware of what it takes to run a technological facility in the 21st century:
1) What kind of medical equipment do they have? Specifically, medical equipment connected to the network. Diagnostic (like EEG, ultrasonic diagnostics, etc) and treatment equipment (like auto-masseurs, tanning booths, etc).
2) What is the actual amount of computer-connected equipment that they use? Hardware-wise. I.e. do they have a separate server room with a 19'' rack that houses the servers, or is everything run from a tabletop computer in the secretary's office?
3) Do they use any proprietary software besides Windows / Office? Or are they exclusively open source / freeware based?
4) Does the secretary have appropriate qualifications? Certificates for maintaining stuff. Would they be voiding the warranty on the equipment if the secretary does any repairs themselves?

Oh I though you meant to has ultimate authority over the non-medical parts of the equipment. They have nurses and IT staff as you would expect for a facility this size. They do not have an in house hospital, just a small clinic so nothing large like an ultrasound. Files and recordings are just kept on the desktop PCs
 
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[x] uju32

At least our failure state here doesn't leave us in the director's office after having blown our cover.

We get caught out front and we're really suspicious, but not enough that they're likely to go directly to summoning monsters or activating higher power wards.
 
There are power sources that favor black magic, or can twist you towards them.
However, black magic isnt intrinsically based on power source, but rather on what you do with it; while many black mages acquire a distinct signature to their magic(see Corpsetaker), black magic is a matter of effect, not power.

Thats why you have Peabody doing black magic on large parts of the White Council for years, if not decades, and neither Mai's wardhounds nor any other wizard ever picks it up.

When Molly did black magic on Rosanna to stop her using drugs, it had nothing to do with any of those emotions;
She was angry at Nathan, however, so the effect was different.

And no, you are mistaken about necromancers; they use whatever power they can get.
It just happens that death and death-associated energies are easiest and cheapest for them to use. Good synergy.
We see Dresden call up Sue in a major act of necromancy. He uses the exact same power source he's always used.

Incorrect. From Dead Beat:

If they managed to turn a Warden, especially one of the senior commanders, it would give them access to a treasury of knowledge and secrets—to say nothing of the fact that they would effectively gain, in many ways, a wizard of their own. Vampires didn't use magic in the same way that mortal wizards did. They tapped into the same nauseating well of power that Kemmler and those like him used. But from what I understood of it, the skills carried over. A turned wizard would be a deadly threat to the Wardens, the Council, and mortals alike. We never talked about it, but there was a sort of silent understanding among wizards that we would never be taken alive. And an equally silent fear that we might be.​

Kemmlerite necromancers explicitly use a different source of power than wizards do, and it's specifically the same source of power that the Red Court's spellcasters draw on.

Whether it's also possible for Dresden to perform necromancy using regular magic is irrelevant.

And from Fool Moon:

Magic comes from the heart, from your feelings, your deepest expressions of desire. That's why black magic is so easy - it comes from lust, from fear and anger, from things that are easy to feed and make grow.​

And also from there:

I wouldn't be safe from the loathing I would feel, using a tool made of life's essence, its energy, to bring an end to life. Magic was more than just an energy source, like electricity or petroleum. It was power, true, but it was a lot of other things as well. It was all that was deepest and most powerful in nature, in the human heart and soul. The ways in which I applied it were crude and clumsy in comparison to magic in its pure form. There's more magic in a baby's first giggle than in any firestorm a wizard can conjure up, and don't let anyone tell you any different.

Magic comes from what is inside you. It is a part of you. You can't weave together a spell that you don't believe in.

I didn't want to believe that killing was deep inside of me. I didn't want to think about the part of me that took a dark joy in gathering all the power it could and using it as I saw fit, everything else be damned. There was power to be had in hatred, too, in anger and in lust, in selfishness and in pride. And I knew that there was some dark corner of me that would enjoy using magic for killing - and then long for more. That was black magic, and it was easy to use. Easy and fun. Like Legos.​
 
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