Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

You are currently an Infernal exalted in Shintai form with melee excellency active, while it is statistically possible for you not to knock out a baseline human, it is very very unlikely.
18 dice, dc8 was what you said, I think? Correct me if I remembered it wrong.

We succeed on 8,9 and 10. So 3/10 for success and 7/10 for failure. To not even get one success, we need to fail all 18 dice. Since it's a key ability 1s don't subtract.

(7/10 to the power of 18) = 0.001628....

So yes, we have less than 0.2% chance to not get a single success.
 
I would not say this is about trust.

We have a pretty good idea what Dresden will do, namely not calling Mab.
I think that is the right call even.
I just want to take over the burden of most of the Enemy: Mab rating that will result from this.
1)It IS very much about trust.
If Charity had bashed Molly over the back of the head to prevent her coming here and risking her life, Molly would be LIVID.
And Im pretty sure it would irreparavpbly damage our relationship in the eyes of some voters.

Dresden did not ask us to disable him.
When he wanted to be disabled in canon, he asked.
Thats how he arranged his own assassination.

You cannot in good faith champion Lydia's freedom of choice and then decide that a man twice her age does not get to make his own decisions.

2) Mab has no intention of making him an enemy.
She's grooming a Starborn Winter Knight candidate. One that to quote him, can set up a Darkhallow, and also has a Denarian offering him power. She's not going to push him hard.

Conversely, she has no such attachment to US. We would do very badly with a Mab Enemy rating at Essence 2.
And we specifically avoided it back when there was a Winter Knight up for grabs as we left Arctis Tor.
I have no interest in playing a game that is focused around our enmity with the world's preeminent supernatural superpower.

Michael can't take the coin away.
He doesn't have the means to get Lash out of Dresden's head and the spirits can teach rituals that summon the Coin no matter how the Knights store it.
Michael asked Dresden once.
Dresden asked about the consequences, was told he'd have to give up his magic as well, and declined.
Michael dropped the subject and never discussed it again.

And I will point out that whatsisface, Quintus Cassius, Snaky Boy, wasnt able to resummon his Coin once it was taken away.
Because the Church knows how to shield Coins to prevent them being resummoned. Thats why Nicky keeps having to physically steal them back.

By Word of Jim.
Also I'm not too worried about Mab as an enemy because it doesn't look like she can actually use her personal power against people who don't owe her something, or are her subordinates, or are in her territory.

I think she would have to rely on more undependant assets to harm us, like the Winter Knight ( oops doesn't have one) or mortals and changelings still living in the real world.

Not that that isn't a big problem still, but it can be the fun kind of problem that's good for a quest or story, instead of the non-fun kind that is Instakill;Quest over.
1)This is not actually true. That protection applies to mortals only.
Molly is an Exalt. Winter can take potshots at her if they have cause.
That Winter Court Enemy rating we have isnt just adorning our character sheet for play.

Furthermore, in deliberately interfering with Mab's business, you are knowingly making yourself subject to Winter retaliation.
Same as would Holt in stealing a Winter mantle.
Besides, we got Usum's shard from Arctis Tor. We are already linked to Winter.

And Mab's Rolodex is DEEP.
She has gods and demigods who owe her favors on there. Just ask Nicodemus about how he ended up murdering his beloved daughter after publicly breaking the Unseelie Accords and causing Mab offense.
 
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by the way does a 5 essence infernal exalt even have anything dakka wise comparable to ebenezar? since dude can likely wipe an island through dakka. much less you know gods and shit that can do worldwide affects with some effort.
 
Also I'm not too worried about Mab as an enemy because it doesn't look like she can actually use her personal power against people who don't owe her something, or are her subordinates, or are in her territory.
Greater fey can't use their power on anyone who hasn't become involved in there business somehow. Attacking her agents for the purposes of interfering with her future plans counts.

She also has a lot of options that aren't just pressing the smite button. Trusting those restrictions to protect us after something like this is like trusting their inability to lie to stop her from deceiving us.
 
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1)It IS very much about trust.
If Charity had bashed Molly over the back of the head to prevent her coming here and risking her life, Molly would be LIVID.
And Im pretty sure it would irreparavpbly damage our relationship in the eyes of some voters.

Dresden did not ask us to disable him.
When he wanted to be disabled in canon, he asked.
Thats how he arranged his own assassination.

You cannot in good faith champion Lydia's freedom of choice and then decide that a man twice her age does not get to make his own decisions.

2) Mab has no intention of making him an enemy.
She's grooming a Starborn Winter Knight candidate. One that to quote him, can set up a Darkhallow, and also has a Denarian offering him power. She's not going to push him hard.

Conversely, she has no such attachment to US. We would do very badly with a Mab Enemy rating at Essence 2.
And we specifically avoided it back when there was a Winter Knight up for grabs as we left Arctis Tor.
I have no interest in playing a game that is focused around our enmity with the world's preeminent supernatural superpower.


Michael asked Dresden once.
Dresden asked about the consequences, was told he'd have to give up his magic as well, and declined.
Michael dropped the subject and never discussed it again.

And I will point out that whatsisface, Quintus Cassius, Snaky Boy, wasnt able to resummon his Coin once it was taken away.
Because the Church knows how to shield Coins to prevent them being resummoned. Thats why Nicky keeps having to physically steal them back.

By Word of Jim.

1)This is not actually true. That protection applies to mortals only.
Molly is an Exalt. Winter can take potshots at her if they have cause.
That Winter Court Enemy rating we have isnt just adorning our character sheet for play.

Furthermore, in deliberately interfering with Mab's business, you are knowingly making yourself subject to Winter retaliation.
Same as would Holt in stealing a Winter mantle.
Besides, we got Usum's shard from Arctis Tor. We are already linked to Winter.

And Mab's Rolodex is DEEP.
She has gods and demigods who owe her favors on there. Just ask Nicodemus about how he ended up murdering his beloved daughter after publicly breaking the Unseelie Accords and causing Mab offense.
honestly we are explicitly still mortal she really shouldn't be able to just attack us even if we are powerful. Qm doesn't agree though which is disappointing though.
 
Greater fey can't use their power on anyone who hasn't become involved in there business somehow. Attacking her agents for the purposes of interfering with her future plans counts.

She also has a lot of options that aren't just pressing the smite button. Trusting those restrictions to protect us after something like this is like trusting their inability to lie to stop her from deceiving us.
fairly sure it has to be more direct since just inconveniencing them isn't enough. direct attacks, breaking promises, entering territory, asking for it, or breaking one of the rules they have.
 
honestly we are explicitly still mortal she really shouldn't be able to just attack us even if we are powerful. Qm doesn't agree though which is disappointing though.
Nope. From our character sheet:
Merits/Flaws
Enemy ● (The Winter Court)


This has been there since the beginning.
Winter has always been able to target us. We are just a minor irritant atm, imstead of an actual Enemy.
Drawing Mab's personal enmity, as Artemis is suggesting we should do, is a very different matter.
 
[X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
-[X][Stunt] With unnatural speed you skip across the watery floor. Graceful steps stealing force from the water's movement and directing you at your target. One hand drives your sword's pommel into Harry's solar plexus removing any air that could incant the dangerous name, and the other wraps around to steady him. "Sorry" you whisper as you meet his eyes.
 
The whole thing unpleasantly reminds me of letting someone "suffer the consequences of their actions" because they "made their choices". Sometimes the only choices available to someone are bad.
That is not what we're doing here; no one is suggesting leaving him out to dry.

The evaluation you're making right now is exactly saying you know better and exercising our agency over his because of that. His choices matter her because it's directly related to him.

He could have asked for or implied that he wanted this sort of help, but didn't. From what we know of him we can pretty easily infer he wouldn't want this. Anything else is just coming up with excuses.
 
I will repeat this one last time:
[X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
-[X][Stunt] With unnatural speed you skip across the watery floor. Graceful steps stealing force from the water's movement and directing you at your target. One hand drives your sword's pommel into Harry's solar plexus removing any air that could incant the dangerous name, and the other wraps around to steady him. "Sorry" you whisper as you meet his eyes.
If anybody treated us this way?
If Charity attempted to put sleeping/paralysis drugs in our food, or Michael attempted to choke us out to prevent us coming on this mission, or Dresden attempted to hit us with a sleep spell?

We would be LIVID. IC and OOC.
As in, relationship fracture, cutting links livid. And we would not trust the person with our business going forward.
 
Nope. From our character sheet:
Merits/Flaws
Enemy ● (The Winter Court)


This has been there since the beginning.
Winter has always been able to target us. We are just a minor irritant atm, imstead of an actual Enemy.
Drawing Mab's personal enmity, as Artemis is suggesting we should do, is a very different matter.
I said shouldn't not that it is. as mortal rules should really still apply and dresden after entering arctis tor in canon still has mortal protections.
 
I think it's worth noting that in practical terms there are a very limited number of situations where knocking out Harry is actually helpful. If Arawn is in any way hostile we're in trouble. If the spirit of knowledge containing the notes of a necromancer that needed killed like three times has any tricks left he's in trouble. If the corpsetaker has any tricks left he's in trouble.

If Mab decides the game is over now that her toy is out of play and gates here herself we're all in trouble.

All of that aside, we're basically writing him a shitty doctor's note to excuse skipping class, and Mab isn't an idiot. If she's of a mind to punish him for it "not fair" isn't going to stop her.

A plan that requires all of your potential antagonists to do exactly what you want them to and not attempt to exploit an opening is a bad plan.
 
I will repeat this one last time:

If anybody treated us this way?
If Charity attempted to put sleeping/paralysis drugs in our food, or Michael attempted to choke us out to prevent us coming on this mission, or Dresden attempted to hit us with a sleep spell?

We would be LIVID. IC and OOC.
As in, relationship fracture, cutting links livid. And we would not trust the person with our business going forward.
Molly already told Harry what she thinks about Dresden sacrificing himself. He really can't claim to be surprised about it.
"What's 'supposed to' got to do with it?" you cut him off, fear suddenly boiling over into anger. "I was supposed to still be nailed to that damn tree if you had not gotten to me and accidentally hit the ice-prison that held my Crown, if I was not the closest, most fitting bearer because I failed. Now I have power, if that means helping to keep you out of trouble well that is my call isn't it." Looking him straight in the eye you say: "I know you are planning something to help Lydia, well I want yo help too and I don't want you to get hurt. So let's not trip over each other, OK?"
 
I said shouldn't not that it is. as mortal rules should really still apply and dresden after entering arctis tor in canon still has mortal protections.
1) We read as an Archdevil to those with the senses and can banish Fallen Angels from their hosts.
Winter Court is supposed to be part of reality's immune defenses. If they werent able to target something like us, that would defeat the purpose. Its like saying that if Cowl successfully finished the Darkhallow, he would still operate under mortal rules

2)Dresden is a Wizard that has Mab's attentions.
His godmother is Mab's number two. It suits Mab not to target him, because the whole plot of Proven Guilty was a crazy mishmash of plots whose significance has not been revealed in canon, but which advanced Mab's plans somehow.
 
Molly already told Harry what she thinks about Dresden sacrificing himself. He really can't claim to be surprised about it.
And Dresden ignored her.
Just like Dresden ignored Lash when Lash tried to stop him risking his life to stop the Darkhallow in Dead Beat.

Dresden is very clear about what his principles are like. Those are not a mystery to anyone who knows him.
And Molly knows him. She Soulgazed him. She knows this would constitute a breach of trust and cripple any attempts to help him in the future, because he wouldnt trust her enough to let her close.

EDIT
Key phrase
"What's 'supposed to' got to do with it?" you cut him off, fear suddenly boiling over into anger. "I was supposed to still be nailed to that damn tree if you had not gotten to me and accidentally hit the ice-prison that held my Crown, if I was not the closest, most fitting bearer because I failed. Now I have power, if that means helping to keep you out of trouble well that is my call isn't it." Looking him straight in the eye you say: "I know you are planning something to help Lydia, well I want yo help too and I don't want you to get hurt. So let's not trip over each other, OK?"
That was the implicit deal. Disabling the man is breaking it, and the trust extended.
 
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Molly is still living with her.

So to a degree, yes.

I definitely expect some argument with Harry afterwards, but mostly because Harry would not want Molly to get Mab's attention or ire. Harry is a bit sexist in a "females are feeble and need to be protected" way like that.
She's living with her because we explicitly made an OOC vote that required a willpower roll to actually go through. In canon she had already moved out by the time she got involved with the fetches.

Harry had to make her moving home a requirement for her apprenticeship to get her to move back in, and she left as soon as possible after that. She literally lived on the streets rather than under the same roof as her mother for longer than she had to, and didn't reconcile to any extent until after she became the winter lady.
 
One last point that occurs to me:

Karrin Murphy. Thomas Raith.
Why they are Dresden's closest allies is that while they might argue on the course of action back home, once they are in the field, Harry can trust them to back him up and not secondguess him.

When Molly's trail led to Mab's HQ, neither of them told him this was crazy or tried to KO him for his own good. Thomas certainly could have pulled it off. They backed him up all the way into Winter's heartspring. Even Lash didnt try to stop him that time.
And that was a lot more personally dangerous.

Conversely, Dresden has stood up to Rashid the Gatekeeper when he tried to keep him out of a fight to save his life.
And he's gotten into fights with his grandfather and teacher Ebenezer McCoy when the man tried the same thing later in canon in either Peace Talks or Battlegrounds.

TLDR
Dresden takes it very badly when people try to make his decisions for him.
Well meaning or not.
 
Molly is still living with her. So to a degree, yes.

I definitely expect some argument with Harry afterwards, but mostly because Harry would not want Molly to get Mab's attention or ire. Harry is a bit sexist in a "females are feeble and need to be protected" way like that.
Females are feeble? HARRY???
The guy who has torched female Sidhe, ghouls and vampires a plenty?
Who has the shade of a female Fallen Angel in his head? You're thinking of someone else.

If would be incredibly surprised if we didnt suffer a full relationship rupture.
Because free will is one of his hot buttons. As in, thats how he introduces himself to Titania.
Just as her own freedom to make her own choices is one of Molly's.
 
1) We read as an Archdevil to those with the senses and can banish Fallen Angels from their hosts.
Winter Court is supposed to be part of reality's immune defenses. If they werent able to target something like us, that would defeat the purpose. Its like saying that if Cowl successfully finished the Darkhallow, he would still operate under mortal rules

2)Dresden is a Wizard that has Mab's attentions.
His godmother is Mab's number two. It suits Mab not to target him, because the whole plot of Proven Guilty was a crazy mishmash of plots whose significance has not been revealed in canon, but which advanced Mab's plans somehow.
we literally aren't though we are mortal and things should be able to detect that even if we've got a fuck off devilish stuff attached to our soul. Like not that they should be able to understand it except they should still be able to tell we're mortal. Also they defend from outside they have and do make deals with demons which are still native.
 
Females are feeble? HARRY???
The guy who has torched female Sidhe, ghouls and vampires a plenty?
Who has the shade of a female Fallen Angel in his head? You're thinking of someone else.
Harry has the children and women need to be protected before the males mindset.
It is very far from the worst of sexism, but it's there. Especially in the early books. He grows out of it later on.

We've literally seen him getting his damsel in distress button being hit despite Lydia's capabilities.
 
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Females are feeble? HARRY???
The guy who has torched female Sidhe, ghouls and vampires a plenty?
Who has the shade of a female Fallen Angel in his head? You're thinking of someone else.
In fairness he does have a problem with that sort of thing. He's aware that it's wrong on conscious level and tries to manage it, which I give him credit for, but it still informs some of his decisions.

That said, a bigger deal here is that Molly is as far as he knows functionally an ignorant should just old enough to be held accountable for her decisions by people who'll hurt her for them. Further, that she's the child of a close friend that he respects a great deal. He would not want Molly putting herself under the gun for him, and taking the choice away because we disagree would hurt him deeply on its own. It's a direct attack on how he sees himself and the world.

And before anyone goes on about being a quest PC changing things for Molly; this site has stabbed itself in the heart on the assumption it'd give them power before.
 
Females are feeble? HARRY???
The guy who has torched female Sidhe, ghouls and vampires a plenty?
Who has the shade of a female Fallen Angel in his head? You're thinking of someone else.

If would be incredibly surprised if we didnt suffer a full relationship rupture.
Because free will is one of his hot buttons. As in, thats how he introduces himself to Titania.
Just as her own freedom to make her own choices is one of Molly's.

Harry does have a bit of a damsel in distress fixation, but it is not so much that he thinks women are weak as that he feels he has an inherent obligation to protect them anyway. It is literal white knighting that comes from his unusual and traumatic adolescence IMO. As to how he would take you guys taking away his agency, that is up to you guys to judge.
 
If he survives the consequences of us bashing him unconscious in the middle of a life or death encounter with necromancers and Evil Bob, I'm pretty sure our friendly relationship with Harry is over. No more relatively easy access to Bob, for sure, maybe Mouse losing access to Burny, instruction in supernatural matters completely off the table, etc.
 
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