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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
3)We dont finish the fight, some of our people might very well die.
Evil Bob is not harmless. The Corpsetaker is not harmless.
The only reason Michael isnt here is because the Corpsetaker crippled him, and Evil Bob almost killed Harry just now.

And if Holt left any contingencies around, they get activated in the middle of Chicago by Evil Bob or the Corpsetaker.
The fight is not over.

5)Gard is a rune sorceress, not a wizard. She hasnt cast anything we've seen so far, she has activated premade runes afaik, or used magic tools. We have no indication that she has more than one anti-muggle ward, or can mcguyver one in the field. We have no indication that she can carry a ward while in motion; the only person we know who did that in canon was the Merlin.
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We now have Arawn going after the Capriocorpus, between them I think Gard and Lydia can handle the boat.

And we've no reason to believe she can't use another anti-mortal rune. WE also don't have to walk out of the front door. There will be lots of exits to the museum.

uju32 said:
Arawn had dealings with fucking Kemmler.
His entire vulnerability to Holt and her friends stems from those dealings
I posit that our desire to spare Lydia distress does not translate to assuming that her father is on the up and up.


1)I dont call it fealty, it IS fealty.
It imposed responsibilities on both sides.

2)This is a false claim.
Lydia is not bound by the oaths of her father, hence this entire rigmarole.

2) Even today, go AWOL from the US Army with a nuclear weapon and see what that gets you.
The more so if you got the Russians or the Chinese to help you do so.

===
Arawn gave his oath freely, then broke them with the help of one of the people he was supposed to hunt.
Mab has every reason to be mad at him and to want the power out of his hands. So does almost everyone else in the supernatural.
Our interest here is to limit the damage to Lydia. That means keeping the man alive, it doesnt mean preserving his Mantle.
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And Harry deals with Marva and sundry other bad guys when he has to. Mab herself has cut many deals with the Denarians, who are much worse than Kemmler.

1) It's gone beyond fealty when there's no out and it lasts for eternity.

2) It's not a false claim. Mab want to enslave Lydia by holding her father hostage, forcing her to serve in his place. My claim is absolutely true

Arawn is still hunting necromancers, laying ghosts to rest, and has just saved Harry's life. He has proved himself sufficiently to extend him the benefit of the doubt. He has made himself a Mantle that seems eminently suited to his job, and there's no reason to stop him doing it.

uju32 said:
Imagine how bad Odin and the other Norse must have been for Kattrin to murder three of her sisters and go renegade


We are literally at the point where you are claiming that a thousand plus year old psychopomp and minor god is not culpable for his dealings with the greatest necromancer that Earth has ever known.
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Arawn, as far as we know, didn't murder anyone, so that's a false analogy. Kattrin has also joined the dark side and is an active necromancer in league with the forces that want to destroy the world. All our evidence is that Arawn is still one of the good guys. He's happy to go around killing necromancers, he just doesn't want to be enslaved to at best the lesser evil while doing so.
 
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the DragonBard said:
I might be a little more onboard with the leading vote if it wasn't for the fact we're in the middle of a battle against a freaking combat sub! And knocking Harry out leaves us a man down, and 'him' more vulnerable!

Not to mention no one is trying to stunt the vote so as to make it more likely we knock Harry out with minimal extra issues.
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Exactly!

Everything else is secondary, as far as I'm concerned. The possessed u-boat is still active, Evil Bob is still active, Capricorpus is still active, whatever contingencies Katrina might have setup may be active, we don't even have confirmation that Arawn isn't an enemy (even if he did save Harry), and who knows what kind of Undead shit might be wandering the museum.

Knocking Harry out makes him a liability and a target, one that can't defend himself from physical, magical, or spiritual threats. There are a lot of spiritual threats hanging around right now, and DP already confirmed that being unconscious makes Harry more vulnerable to possession.
 
Artemis1992 said:
You are kinda obscuring that he served for well over a millenium before that.
Anyone sane would call that a duty fullfilled.
Fey-law obviously doesn't, but that's not exactly a moral authority.
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1)Point of correction: He served for just under 800 years.
He swore to this Mab, Mab came to the job sometime after Hastings, and dude went rogue in the first decade of the 20th century.
Mab's been in the job longer. So has Odin. So has Gard, for that matter.

2)He's an immortal. Time does not mean the same thing

3)He could have passed the Mantle down to another Ankou.
Or cut a deal with someone else less....skeevy.
But he cut a deal with Kemmler.
 
Goldfish said:
Exactly!

Everything else is secondary, as far as I'm concerned. The possessed u-boat is still active, Evil Bob is still active, Capricorpus is still active, whatever contingencies Katrina might have setup may be active, we don't even have confirmation that Arawn isn't an enemy (even if he did save Harry), and who knows what kind of Undead shit might be wandering the museum.

Knocking Harry out makes him a liability and a target, one that can't defend himself from physical, magical, or spiritual threats. There are a lot of spiritual threats hanging around right now, and DP already confirmed that being unconscious makes Harry more vulnerable to possession.
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And Harry will be a lot worse off if he decides that he'd rather not stab the guy who just saved his life in the back and so doesn't call Mab right now, as she'll use that to claim that he broke his deal with her and now owes him even more.

It's for Harry's own sake that we need to knock him out before he gets the chance to make that choice. We can then stand over him and defend him from anything else that tries to attack while our allies clean up the situation. With Holt dead and Arawn on the scene, Harry and we can sit the mop up out.
 
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uju32 said:
Point of correction: He served for just under 800 years.
He swore to this Mab, Mab came to the job sometime after Hastings, and dude went rogue in the first decade of the 20th century.
Mab's been in the job longer. So has Odin. So has Gard, for that matter.
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Okay, I wasn't quite sure when the christianisation of Ireland forced him into a deal, I thought it might have been earlier.


uju32 said:
He could have passed the Mantle down to another Ankou.
Or cut a deal with someone else less....skeevy.
But he cut a deal with Kemmler.
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He could?
I mean, without fading from the world like an almost fully forgotten god?

That mantle was keeping him alive until Kemmler showed him an alternative.
 
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Alratan said:
We now have Arawn going after the Capriocorpus, between them I think Gard and Lydia can handle the boat.
And we've no reason to believe she can't use another anti-mortal rune. WE also don't have to walk out of the front door. There will be lots of exits to the museum.
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Arawn was explicitly vulnerable to Kattrin Holt, was apparently bound by her, and Corpsetaker was working with her.
So no, I would not list Arawn as an asset against Corpstaker here.

We have no reason to believe she CAN.
They are runes, not spells. Wards are typically anchored in one place, not carried around, unless you're a badass like Langtry.
Alratan said:
And Harry deals with Marva and sundry other bad guys when he has to. Mab herself has cut many deals with the Denarians, who are much worse than Kemmler.

1) It's gone beyond fealty when there's no out and it lasts for eternity.

2) It's not a false claim. Mab want to enslave Lydia by holding her father hostage, forcing her to serve in his place. My claim is absolutely true

Arawn is still hunting necromancers, laying ghosts to rest, and has just saved Harry's life. He has proved himself sufficiently to extend him the benefit of the doubt. He has made himself a Mantle that seems eminently suited to his job, and there's no reason to stop him doing it.
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1)Harry does not deal with them for personal power. Motivation matters.

2) Dude, thats fealty. Its not a job, its an allegiance.
Arawn wielded much the same power over lesser Ankou, and entered the agreement with full knowledge of who he was signing up with. And as far as we know, there is no evidence that Mab abused him.

3)False.
Mab cannot make Lydia do anything. She can make her a deal, but she has to agree to it.
And fealty is not slavery. It imposes responsibilities on both parties. We see this with Dresden as Winter Knighy.

4)No evidence for this claim.
We know he was hunting Corpsetaker. We do not know that he was hunting any other necromancers other than those with Kemmler information that might be a threat to him.

Critically, we know he wasnt in Chicago during the Darkhallow when the White Council could have really used him.
So citation very much needed.
Alratan said:
Arawn, as far as we know, didn't murder anyone, so that's a false analogy. Kattrin has also joined the dark side and is an active necromancer in league with the forces that want to destroy the world. All our evidence is that Arawn is still one of the good guys. He's happy to go around killing necromancers, he just doesn't want to be enslaved to at best the lesser evil while doing so.
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Literally no evidence for any of these claims.
Hunting Kemmlerites is one thing. No evidence so far he's been hunting anyone else.
Again, the Darkhallow almost happened and he was nowhere to be found.

You are being absurdly charitable to a guy we know fuckall about besides his personal dealings with one of the monsters of the superbatural world.
 
Artemis1992 said:
You are kinda obscuring that he served for well over a millenium before that.
Anyone sane would call that a duty fullfilled.
Fey-law obviously doesn't, but that's not exactly a moral authority.
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As uju said, it was more like 800 years. Also, what if he only served the 800 when he had pledged to serve for, say, a thousand years and a day? Again, we don't know nearly enough about Arawn, and he *was* willing to work with Kemmler to as far as I can tell gain personal power to whatever end, which is not an endorsement in my book.

2) It's not a false claim. Mab want to enslave Lydia by holding her father hostage, forcing her to serve in his place. My claim is absolutely true
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When was this stated?
 
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uju32 said:
4)No evidence for this claim.
We know he was hunting Corpsetaker. We do not know that he was hunting any other necromancers other than those with Kemmler information that might be a threat to him.

Critically, we know he wasnt in Chicago during the Darkhallow when the White Council could have really used him.
So citation very much needed.

Literally no evidence for any of these claims.
Hunting Kemmlerites is one thing. No evidence so far he's been hunting anyone else.
Again, the Darkhallow almost happened and he was nowhere to be found.

You are being absurdly charitable to a guy we know fuckall about besides his personal dealings with one of the monsters of the superbatural world.
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Harry did tell you Arawn has been hunting necromancers ever since he broke away to the point where it is a well kept secret that he is not in the service of Winter anymore.
 
uju32 said:
False.
Mab cannot make Lydia do anything. She can make her a deal, but she has to agree to it.
And fealty is not slavery. It imposes responsibilities on both parties. We see this with Dresden as Winter Knighy.
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If the deal is "Serve me or your father dies/stays on the ice-cross" that's close enough to slavery for my taste.

And that was explicitly the deal Mab intended, Arawns life for Lydia's service.
 
Artemis1992 said:
He could?
I mean, without fading from the world like an almost fully forgotten god?
That mantle was keeping him alive until Kemmler showed him an alternative.
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Yes, he could. Eles there would have been no other Ankou.
Mantles arent essential for your survival.
He was an immortal spirit/creature of the NeverNever. He could be killed, but he wouldnt die of old age.

I mean, my problem here isnt that he tried to get out of his deal; Id be neutral about that as long as noone else was hurt.
Thing is, he did so with Kemmler. And less than a decade before Kemmler helped set off WW1, meaning that Kemmler was already pretty well known for magic murder and mani0ulation.

That points to either a willingness to accept vast amounts of death and suffering of others for personal power and gratification, or an appalling lack of judgement in a more than thousand year old entity.
Neither stops him from being a good parent, but both point at someone who shouldnt be holding that power.

And I would dearly want to know what happened to Lydia's mother. Or if she had a mother.
 
uju32 said:
Arawn was explicitly vulnerable to Kattrin Holt, was apparently bound by her, and Corpsetaker was working with her.
So no, I would not list Arawn as an asset against Corpstaker here.

We have no reason to believe she CAN.
They are runes, not spells. Wards are typically anchored in one place, not carried around, unless you're a badass like Langtry.
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And Harry bound the Erlking. Arawn has now slipped whatever that binding was, which the bad guys needed Matthews for, and he's now busy running away, so we can be confident that Arawn can now engage the Corpsetaker.

We just saw Gard use a rune upstairs to get rid of the FBI.

uju32 said:
1)Harry does not deal with them for personal power. Motivation matters.

2) Dude, thats fealty. Its not a job, its an allegiance.
Arawn wielded much the same power over lesser Ankou, and entered the agreement with full knowledge of who he was signing up with. And as far as we know, there is no evidence that Mab abused him.

3)False.
Mab cannot make Lydia do anything. She can make her a deal, but she has to agree to it.
And fealty is not slavery. It imposes responsibilities on both parties. We see this with Dresden as Winter Knighy.

4)No evidence for this claim.
We know he was hunting Corpsetaker. We do not know that he was hunting any other necromancers other than those with Kemmler information that might be a threat to him.

Critically, we know he wasnt in Chicago during the Darkhallow when the White Council could have really used him.
So citation very much needed.
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1)

2) By that logic debt slavery is allegiance.

3) As I have said multiple times, Mab plans to make Lydia accept enslavement by holding her father's life hostage. Enslaving people by threatening their relatives is still enslaving them. The fact that she may be forced to speak some words to make that enslavement supernaturally binding doesn't mean that it's any better, instead it makes it much worse.

4) The way he was travelling around the world is strongly suggestive.

We know an awful lot else was happening around the time of the Darkhallow. He was probably busy.

uju32 said:
Literally no evidence for any of these claims.
Hunting Kemmlerites is one thing. No evidence so far he's been hunting anyone else.
Again, the Darkhallow almost happened and he was nowhere to be found.

You are being absurdly charitable to a guy we know fuckall about besides his personal dealings with one of the monsters of the superbatural world.
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See here:

DragonParadox said:
As far as Moly understands mantles this would not be rule-breaking, it would be putting on another costume, taking on another role. Keep in mind that as a god of death he's still hunting necromancers, so he seems to still be on the side of the natural order... only you know without having to grovel to Mab. Remember that Bob said about many of the old gods preferring to die rather than grovel to the fey. It is a fair assumption that Arwan who did make the deal did not have a light heart about it. Maybe it's just Molly's experiences with Winter, but she does not sound like a good boss.
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He's still hunting necromancers by WoG.
 
Artemis1992 said:
If the deal is "Serve me or your father dies/stays on the ice-cross" that's close enough to slavery for my taste.

And that was explicitly the deal Mab intended, Arawns life for Lydia's service.
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That is the deal that Mab intended, perhaps, but there may be ways by which that can be changed. If nothing else, Molly and whoever else can offer advice and moral support, perhaps even to help work out terms for the deal contract. If nothing else, IPM allows us at least to no-sell mind-altering magic, and presumably also to recognize when it is being used on us?
 
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uju32 said:
Yes, he could. Eles there would have been no other Ankou.
Mantles arent essential for your survival.
He was an immortal spirit/creature of the NeverNever. He could be killed, but he wouldnt die of old age.
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I don't believe that.
He's not some Fey like other Ankou he was a god and now he's a godwithout worshippers.

I'm not sure he would have literally died without the Winter-mantle, but propably yes.
 
uju32 said:
Yes, he could. Eles there would have been no other Ankou.
Mantles arent essential for your survival.
He was an immortal spirit/creature of the NeverNever. He could be killed, but he wouldnt die of old age.
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No he couldn't. His alternative was oblivion:

DragonParadox said:
To be fair it is not perceived betrayal, it's actual betrayal. One can argue about how fair or not the deal was when the alternative was oblivion and the deal itself was eternal service, but he did take it and then he broke it.
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Arawn wasn't a lesser spirit of the Nevernever. He's a god, like Hades. He needs a Mantle to be able to interact with the world. Without it he'd fade away.

TonedMite said:
That is the deal that Mab intended, perhaps, but there may be ways by which that can be changed. If nothing else, Molly and whoever else can offer advice and moral support, perhaps even to help work out terms for the deal contract.
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Why would we want to do that? Seems like a terrible deal for everyone save Mab.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Harry did tell you Arawn has been hunting necromancers ever since he broke away to the point where it is a well kept secret that he is not in the service of Winter anymore.
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Did he?
How does that square with Kemmler's career between 1906 and 1961?
Artemis1992 said:
If the deal is "Serve me or your father dies/stays on the ice-cross" that's close enough to slavery for my taste.
And that was explicitly the deal Mab intended, Arawns life for Lydia's service.
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No ice cross.
More along the lines of "I'll give you the power to resurrect him"

Lets be clear, it is very much pressure.
But she isnt compelling her at any point along this.
 
uju32 said:
Yes, he could. Eles there would have been no other Ankou.
Mantles arent essential for your survival.
He was an immortal spirit/creature of the NeverNever. He could be killed, but he wouldnt die of old age.

I mean, my problem here isnt that he tried to get out of his deal; Id be neutral about that as long as noone else was hurt.
Thing is, he did so with Kemmler. And less than a decade before Kemmler helped set off WW1, meaning that Kemmler was already pretty well known for magic murder and mani0ulation.

That points to either a willingness to accept vast amounts of death and suffering of others for personal power and gratification, or an appalling lack of judgement in a more than thousand year old entity.
Neither stops him from being a good parent, but both point at someone who shouldnt be holding that power.

And I would dearly want to know what happened to Lydia's mother. Or if she had a mother.
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All those other Ankou are also members of the Winter Court. This is getting into stuff Molly can only speculate about, but she assumes that going 'I hearby join the Court of Winter as a leal vassal together with all my people rather than face oblivion' and then turning around to say 'kidding I was just angling to be Wyldfae' does not work that well or else it would be used more.
 
uju32 said:
Did he?
How does that square with Kemmler's career between 1906 and 1961?
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By Kemmler being very powerful and dangerous to approach and he got more so as he aged. Just because someone managed to get the drop on him once requiring a bribe to go away does not mean he could do so again, but also...Remember why Arawn is so worried about the Heirs? It's because they know things about his condition and how to exploit it, Kammler himself would likely have known even more.
 
TonedMite said:
The deal as it stands, perhaps… That said, even if she can force Harry to back her, we still have at least ourselves and Gard to help hammer out more favorable terms… If we can get Michael here that would be ideal.
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The best deal for everyone save Mab is no deal at all. That's what we should be aiming for.

uju32 said:
No ice cross.
More along the lines of "I'll give you the power to resurrect him"

Lets be clear, it is very much pressure.
But she isnt compelling her at any point along this.
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Holding the life of a relative hostage to control someone is still slavery. Particularly when it is followed by magical mind control and them literally surrendering their free will, which is what taking up a mantle like this entails for Lydia , as I believe she'd have to choose her non-mortal side.
 
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[X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
 
Alratan said:
And Harry bound the Erlking. Arawn has now slipped whatever that binding was, which the bad guys needed Matthews for, and he's now busy running away, so we can be confident that Arawn can now engage the Corpsetaker.

We just saw Gard use a rune upstairs to get rid of the FBI.
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1)Harry bound the Erlking with a ritual, in a prepared location, near Halloween.

2)We do not know that Arawn has slipped the binding.
Or that it cant be reestablished. Or that he isnt still vulnerable to influence.
That Corpsetaker is running away is prudent when she's outnumbered, it doesnt mean she has no combat options.

3)Yes. A rune. Not a spell.
Canon is that those runes are prepared beforehand.
We have no way of knowing if she has any more.

4) Wards both take time to set up and are immobile.

Alratan said:
1)

2) By that logic debt slavery is allegiance.

3) As I have said multiple times, Mab plans to make Lydia accept enslavement by holding her father's life hostage. Enslaving people by threatening their relatives is still enslaving them. The fact that she may be forced to speak some words to make that enslavement supernaturally binding doesn't mean that it's any better, instead it makes it much worse.

4) The way he was travelling around the world is strongly suggestive.

We know an awful lot else was happening around the time of the Darkhallow. He was probably busy.
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1)Dont be disingenuous.
Arawn went to Mab. He was told the terms of the contract beforehand. She was not the only power around; at the very least, Summer was around as well, as were other pantheons. He held much the same power as king over the other Ankou.

The idea this is some sort of unjust practice imposed on him when he had no options is well offbase.

2)Its not slavery, its recruitment. Mab is definitely applying pressure, but she isnt compelling obedience.

3)WoQM is that he was, so I'll take it.
Doesnt change the fact that his cutting a deal with Kemmler is a large part of the reason that WW1 and WW2 were as protracted and bloody as they were.
 
uju32 said:
Its not slavery, its recruitment. Mab is definitely applying pressure, but she isnt compelling obedience.
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I really don't understand how you can keep denying this.

If someone held a gun to my father's head and told me to sign a contract or he'd die, would I be obligated to that contract too?
Would that just be pressured recruitment?

Being forced to work for someone through threats of violence against your family isnot normal, it's blackmail or slavery.
 
uju32 said:
1)Harry bound the Erlking with a ritual, in a prepared location, near Halloween.

2)We do not know that Arawn has slipped the binding.
Or that it cant be reestablished. Or that he isnt still vulnerable to influence.
That Corpsetaker is running away is prudent when she's outnumbered, it doesnt mean she has no combat options.

3)Yes. A rune. Not a spell.
Canon is that those runes are prepared beforehand.
We have no way of knowing if she has any more.

4) Wards both take time to set up and are immobile.
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1) So? Matthews is a specialist binder in a prepared location, powered up by Corpsetaker.

2) We can see that he's slipped it by the way he's not bound and is chasing the Corpsetaker and saving Harry's life. We can also be confident that he won't be bound again as Matthews is no longer possessed and is running away.

3) It also doesn't matter, as there are other ways out. We don't need Harry for this.

4) Not relevant

uju32 said:
1)Dont be disingenuous.
Arawn went to Mab. He was told the terms of the contract beforehand. She was not the only power around; at the very least, Summer was around as well, as were other pantheons. He held much the same power as king over the other Ankou.

The idea this is some sort of unjust practice imposed on him when he had no options is well offbase.

2)Its not slavery, its recruitment. Mab is definitely applying pressure, but she isnt compelling obedience.

3)WoQM is that he was, so I'll take it.
Doesnt change the fact that his cutting a deal with Kemmler is a large part of the reason that WW1 and WW2 were as protracted and bloody as they were.
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1) We don't know if he went to Mab. We also don't know if Summer could offer him a mantle. Death is much more in theme for Winter than it is for summer. And the other pantheons he'd be in contact with were also all being screwed by the rise of Christianity at the same time. If Odin, previous guardian of the Outer Gates needed to take a mantle from Mab, I don't see why Arawn would have been better off.

2) If I hold a person's family hostage and then say I'll kill said family if they don't do what I tell them forever, that's slavery. No ifs, no buts. Slavery.

3) He may have not been confident of defeating Kemmler (but Kemmler wasn't certain of defeating him), so we could well have ended up with a just as bloody or worse WW1 and WW2 with a Kemmler that was just as dangerous but no Arawn squishing lesser necromancers.
 
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