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Dungeon Crawler You!

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Personally don't think we need the damage.

You do 100 damage, or 100million, for mobs, dead is dead.
Elites usually have something like Invulnerable or other broken skills, and won't care either way.
DCC had an elite that auto charmed you. Or berserk your pet.
Another Boss no damage, except for a trick.
Another crawler reflected damage, so someone was credited for killing their team mate when he used his skill

No amount of combat potential will help you.

I vote for Hunting dog, only for the access of clubs. I don't mind Bomb sniffer or Seeing Eye tho
 
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Dreaming Circuit said:
It's being counted as a seperate vote, which should be fine 'cause eaglejarl consolidates votes as long as you make it VERY CLEAR what you meant. I'll still switch it out in a little bit.
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It's not a good idea to rely on my combining votes. If you're thinking of how I combined Drew's class votes with plan votes, that was a special situation and not one I intend to repeat.


Olivebirdy said:
There's Danger Sense, which will be a lifesaver, no doubt about it
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Note that Calliope has this from her race. It got edited in.

Olivebirdy said:
XP stacks with risk. If battles don't give us XP because Moose is too strong, taking weaker combat classes will reward us with more XP.
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True, or you can fight bigger challenges such as Neighborhood and even Borough bosses.

Sickul said:
I don't really understand why we are too powerful for this floor, is it just our levels? I honestly thought combat strength in the short term was a hole we needed to fill, Taylor and Leo pretty much don't have a class this floor, and Drew has most of one (though it is a strong one) and will get weaker next floor.
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The point that Levi is making is that yes, you need combat, but BOF was intended for human crawlers with human damage output. When you stack it on top of the base damage that Moose is bringing, it becomes so powerful that it's a problem. There's a few solutions:

1. Oh well, guess we'll be slightly underleveled when we hit the 4th or 5th floor. That just means we'll be getting bigger XP awards and leveling faster so it will balance out.

2. Drew has very high damage output with Wizard Supremacist and that's probably enough to deal with this floor. That means we could have Moose cover some other hole in the party, like preventing us from being instantly killed by a trap, or helping us find stairwells.

2a. There are multiple holes in our party composition and we're not going to be able to fill all of them right now. We probably can later through loot, FCA+copy, recruiting other crawlers, or hiring NPCs. Combat is a thing we will always need, and if we have Moose as a beatstick then Drew is free to take more niche classes.

3. Moose takes BOF and we go after tougher enemies, like bosses. We can find them via aerial scouting or hire out to other crawlers to join them on raids.


He's not saying "don't do it", he's saying "it's complicated."
 
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I'd like to point out that Moose is capable, with his size and strength, of carrying things much bigger than Taylor can. This doesn't sound relevant, until you realize that this means he can then store and release large objects.

While in flight.

Let's make anvils fall on our enemies with or without Drew's luck aura.
 
Cariyaga said:
I'd like to point out that Moose is capable, with his size and strength, of carrying things much bigger than Taylor can. This doesn't sound relevant, until you realize that this means he can then store and release large objects.

While in flight.

Let's make anvils fall on our enemies with or without Drew's luck aura.
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I am still hoping for alchemy based bombs.
Moose could do bombing runs.

With multi-Moose one could stay on ground and get reloaded while the rest play Luftwuffe.
 
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Moose could be basically Superman. Flying around with super-senses and saving people with a flying tackle. That's great for views, who wouldn't want to watch that?

Toboe said:
I just disliked the "crawler killer class" bit, it is an option, but it doesn't force us. And dunno if eagle would railroad us into pvp if we have a class that could synergize with it, if we show no interest in pvp. (Well, more than the narrative of Dungeon Crawler You would demand)

Also we got hints that PVP will come, either way.
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To go back to a previous argument, Bounty Hunter is a crawler killer class. It's built around killing crawlers. Sure, no one's going to force us into it- until the showrunners notice and the AI engineers a situation where we are. Taking this class signals a willingness to kill crawlers. The Angelic Approval benefit is too good to not kill crawlers for. Hell, I'll be pushing for it, multiple extra lives for Moose and an extra life for one of us? That's too juicy a temptation to resist. It's incorrect to say that the class doesn't force us to kill crawlers, our lives will depend on killing them. That's practically the definition of force. I can't argue that Angelic Approval is a bad skill, it's incredible, even though it'll just stop eventually, but it's not one I want what's practically a baby to have.

Bounty Hunter's Pathfinder is inferior to Seeing Eye Dog's in the majority of cases, barring those where we're hunting other crawlers. It doesn't come with information on mobs, nor does it come with enhanced acuity, which will help a ton with the huge minimap Pathfinder gives. Finding shiny needles in a huge haystack is hard, and Bounty Hunter doesn't have the Spot skill.

Taking bounties and finding criminal crawlers both pale in comparison to finding treasures and clues and finding any crawler we've met. Later, any crawler, period. The AI leaves clues for how to survive desperate situations. If you don't pick up on them, you die. The dungeon is full of very powerful items and loot, finding them is very useful and lucrative.

@2xMachina, I'd like to tempt you away from Bounty Hunter, so I'm going to point out that we don't need Angelic Approval or Plus One to get into both clubs. Beyond the likely ability to get different tattoos on different bodies, we have the ability to transfer other crawlers' tattoos. Club passes are in the form of tattoos. Admitted, Plus One is good for bringing the whole party to a particular club, but it's not necessary to get everyone access to both simultaneously-- we could pass around one tattoo of each so everyone could get a turn.

My offer to ditch BOF if someone else ditches BH is still open.
 
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Hey, if we get Moose Two Body Problem, wouldn't that be pretty incredible? Even more so than getting Child Actor classes for people, straight up having multiple BOF in our party would be increasing our combat strength by a ridiculous amount. I'd certainly vote for it as the Sysop charge we'll use before going to the 5th floor.

With one BOF Moose we can go around and fight bosses. With two, three, many BOF Mooses we could go and farm every boss on the floor for chests to Rollup.

[X] Class: Boring Ol' Fighter

Ultimately, I think the scaling Bounty Hunter gives pales in comparison to cloning BOF.
 
Impetus said:
Hey, if we get Moose Two Body Problem, wouldn't that be pretty incredible? Even more so than getting Child Actor classes for people, straight up having multiple BOF in our party would be increasing our combat strength by a ridiculous amount. I'd certainly vote for it as the Sysop charge we'll use before going to the 5th floor.

With one BOF Moose we can go around and fight bosses. With two, three, many BOF Mooses we could go and farm every boss on the floor for chests to Rollup.

[X] Class: Boring Ol' Fighter

Ultimately, I think the scaling Bounty Hunter gives pales in comparison to cloning BOF.
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I remember getting the Moose cloning race locked. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Mostly because it's a quantum tunnel thing and that might just be something multacorpolan are capable off.
(Spawning braindead clones might not help anyone...)
eaglejarl said:
Nothing is stopping you from giving it away but if you do so immediately then you might annoy the AI, which would lead to worse picks at the next floor."
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Me doing edit.
I can be wrong
 
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Impetus said:
Hey, if we get Moose Two Body Problem, wouldn't that be pretty incredible? Even more so than getting Child Actor classes for people, straight up having multiple BOF in our party would be increasing our combat strength by a ridiculous amount. I'd certainly vote for it as the Sysop charge we'll use before going to the 5th floor.

With one BOF Moose we can go around and fight bosses. With two, three, many BOF Mooses we could go and farm every boss on the floor for chests to Rollup.

[X] Class: Boring Ol' Fighter

Ultimately, I think the scaling Bounty Hunter gives pales in comparison to cloning BOF.
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Bounty gives utility for group play.
BoF is well FCA-able.
 
If we copy Angelic Approval onto the rest of the party, we'll all have some extra lives by the time we run out of other crawlers.
 
Bond674 said:
I remember getting the Moose cloning race locked. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Mostly because it's a quantum tunnel thing and that might just be something multacorpolan are capable off.
(Spawning braindead clones might not help anyone...)

Me doing edit.
I can be wrong
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Eaglejarl's response to your own question certainly implies that we can give away two body problem without much issue:

Bond674 said:
Gotta admit that TWO BODY PROBLEM not being race locked is rather weird.
Unlike the other skill, which is.
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eaglejarl said:
Yeah, it should have been. Mistake on my part.
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As such, I do not consider the idea that giving away Two Body Problem is actually a trap option to be very likely. And braindead clonses would definitely count as a useless Sysop usage.

By the way, I'm not really sure what your quote is intended to show? Because that quote was about giving away cloned loot, not cloning people in of itself.

Toboe said:
Bounty gives utility for group play.
BoF is well FCA-able.
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And does the utility Bounty gives compare to being able to farm bosses for chests and more? Utility serves to aid growth, and so does combat power. Being able to hunt bosses is a far greater reward than the potential reward of Bounty's utility.

And FCA does not replace Two Body Problem BoF, because Two Body Problem gives an extra BoF per floor. One usage of SysOp can either buff one Moose, or it can give multiple BoF. They're not comparable in power level in the slightest.
 
Impetus said:
And does the utility Bounty gives compare to being able to farm bosses for chests and more? Utility serves to aid growth, and so does combat power. Being able to hunt bosses is a far greater reward than the potential reward of Bounty's utility.

And FCA does not replace Two Body Problem BoF, because Two Body Problem gives an extra BoF per floor. One usage of SysOp can either buff one Moose, or it can give multiple BoF. They're not comparable in power level in the slightest.
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Yeah?
FCA + 2Body Problem
 
Toboe said:
Possible, but wouldn't copying 2body problem be better for the action economy?
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Eaglejarl said it was a mistake to not have that race locked, so I expect it to be patched after the first time we do it. Angelic Approval also has the potential to give a lot more extra lives and once everyone has it we won't need to have anyone spend all their badges at once.
 
Toboe said:
Yeah?
FCA + 2Body Problem
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That's... two usages of SysOp. Not one. We don't have enough of those to just throw them around to get a pale imitation of what we can do with a single charge.

As I'm sure you know, FCA, given before going floor 6, is going to be quite underleveled compared to one gotten on floor 3. You would be using two usages of SysOp to copy a low-level BoF. It's not just very efficient.

Edit: As a matter of fact, how is that combo in any way better than cloning BoF and getting Seeing Eye Dog with FCA?
 
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schlega said:
If we copy Angelic Approval onto the rest of the party, we'll all have some extra lives by the time we run out of other crawlers.
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Yeah, but this goes against being team players. There's reasons people might have skulls that don't boil down to being evil murderers, and we'd like to be able to play with them without them fearing we'll kill them for their extra life.

Angelic Approval's rez requires at minimum five skulls. To copy it hoping for a rez, it'd be five skulls each. There's not that many of them, we're going to need to kill a whole bunch of people to fill up.

We're flush with options for the Sysop transfer, we don't need to get Moose a class for yet another overpowered option, beyond what using it would mean.

As for scaling... Seeing Eye Dog doesn't scale as brilliantly as BOF, but there's no floor where the ability to quickly and easily find secrets, loot, and scan mobs before fighting them isn't worth having. Retrocognition isn't bad, either.

Edit: Actually, no. Seeing Eye Dog scales better than any of the options, including BOF. We're going to be saving a lot of crawlers with it, and every person we save is our strength. Every survivor is another scaling power, another pair of hands for humanity, another tool in Earth's toolbox. One of the people who'd otherwise die alone on this floor might be important on the next. Every person we save with its enhanced senses and ability to find crawlers is another compounding investment.
 
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Olivebirdy said:
Yeah, but this goes against being team players. There's reasons people might have skulls that don't boil down to being evil murderers, and we'd like to be able to play with them without them fearing we'll kill them for their extra life.

Angelic Approval's rez requires at minimum five skulls. To copy it hoping for a rez, it'd be five skulls each. There's not that many of them, we're going to need to kill a whole bunch of people to fill up.
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We don't need to kill everyone with a skull. I expect we'll have plenty of openly hostile crawlers to deal with.
And Angelic Approval only requires 5 badges to res someone else. It just uses 1 to give a full heal or one to keep you at 5% health instead of dieing if you're not quick enough or get one shotted.
 
The thing is that eventually we might be attacked by someone with a skull. Moose doesn't need to hunt them down, eventually it's an actual risk, if not an inevitability, that we'll be attacked by people who want to kill us. This allows us to work in self defense without getting marked as a killer ourselves. The narrative that bounty hunter will turn moose into a hardened killer out for blood is inaccurate, it will basically give us a warning if dangerous people are nearby and allow us to defend ourselves if they try anything.
 
GenericName said:
The thing is that eventually we might be attacked by someone with a skull. Moose doesn't need to hunt them down, eventually it's an actual risk, if not an inevitability, that we'll be attacked by people who want to kill us. This allows us to work in self defense without getting marked as a killer ourselves. The narrative that bounty hunter will turn moose into a hardened killer out for blood is inaccurate, it will basically give us a warning if dangerous people are nearby and allow us to defend ourselves if they try anything.
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I do not want to incentivize taking another human life in any respect; we're already an endangered species and there are only going to be less and less of us here - I'm perfectly happy with our pacifist playstyle this far in and want to keep things as they have been. Do I understand there are some people that likely need to be killed? 100%. Do I think we should have to be the one's doing it? Most definitely not. PVP is a practice I just don't want to even bother engaging in.
 
DaOneInDaCorner said:
I do not want to incentivize taking another human life in any respect; we're already an endangered species and there are only going to be less and less of us here - I'm perfectly happy with our pacifist playstyle this far in and want to keep things as they have been. Do I understand there are some people that likely need to be killed? 100%. Do I think we should have to be the one's doing it? Most definitely not. PVP is a practice I just don't want to even bother engaging in.
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If we didn't want him to kill people we shouldn't have brought him in. The player killers aren't going to care if you want a pacifist play style.
 
So, skulls are eventually common regardless of crawler morality. In the short term angelic approval will help eith crawler relations, but eventually it'll be a constant threat to allies. Hell, even now it could aliens southern pride. On one hand fuckem, on the other, they won't be the only ones.
 
eaglejarl said:
The point that Levi is making is that yes, you need combat, but BOF was intended for human crawlers with human damage output. When you stack it on top of the base damage that Moose is bringing, it becomes so powerful that it's a problem. There's a few solutions:

1. Oh well, guess we'll be slightly underleveled when we hit the 4th or 5th floor. That just means we'll be getting bigger XP awards and leveling faster so it will balance out.

2. Drew has very high damage output with Wizard Supremacist and that's probably enough to deal with this floor. That means we could have Moose cover some other hole in the party, like preventing us from being instantly killed by a trap, or helping us find stairwells.

2a. There are multiple holes in our party composition and we're not going to be able to fill all of them right now. We probably can later through loot, FCA+copy, recruiting other crawlers, or hiring NPCs. Combat is a thing we will always need, and if we have Moose as a beatstick then Drew is free to take more niche classes.
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Fundamentally if we have to spend this floor with Moose mostly on "air support", training his dodge and manoeuvrability as high as he can and only swooping down in emergencies... then we still get a giant hammer to smack bosses with in later floors.

But my preferred option would be more along the lines of:

eaglejarl said:
3. Moose takes BOF and we go after tougher enemies, like bosses. We can find them via aerial scouting or hire out to other crawlers to join them on raids.
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Honestly, this would be my preferred option for this floor, so long as we can find enough bosses. It somewhat negates the lack of XP from weaker enemies, and also means we're going to get a lot of guaranteed loot boxes for Rollup.

Also, on the socials/showing off side, organising a "Boss Rush" where we just absolutely blitz through a bunch of Neighbourhood and Borough bosses is probably going to do great things for our profile.

Is there an achievement for killing 10 Neighbourhood bosses on a single floor? I'd like to find out!
 
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