Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I don't think our long-term plans for the ghoulish race are important right now.
Longterm goal: Capturing Chitchen Itza and claiming it as a manse Dragons Nest.
To be done sometime after we have our own inner Hell up and running, and so have people to hold it.
:V
You could argue she's more of a demigod than a regular Changeling.
Big heritage.
Yup.
Big demigod energy right there.

She had the talent, but she was far from being a real Wizard yet.
And she lost the template.
She could veil, and she did selftaught mind magic. She was not White Council, but she was a wizard, albeit only early apprentice level.Doubt she's lost the template either, she just needs to learn to account for how becoming a vortex of magical power affects her abilitiy to wield sorcery.

Hence we can learn Sorcery Paths for essentially everything a Dresdenverse wizard can do, from Alchemy through Enchantment to Hellfire. We just have to do it individually instead of as a holistic whole.

If this was a more freewheeling game, she'd just homebrew a 4-dot or 5-dot charm for Dresdenverse wizardry, maybe commit/spend 1 Essence or 1 WP daily to keeping it running and be done with it.
But game balance concerns.
Has anyone considered that merely scaring the ghouls off might leave them able to attack Lydia?
She seemed to be moving in this general direction.
She could just as easily have run into the five we havent seen, or other underground denizens.
Its not really something in our power to control.
Especially since Undertown has no maps.
 
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But she hadn't developed that talent, she just had the potential, as I understand it. She wasn't at the stage where she was Soul Gazing people, I think, which is the defining trait of a wizard.
True, but she was doing magic already, and had techbane. So, in RPG terms, she had taken at least first, if not second level in wizard.
-Elder Ankou has not raised a teenager in centuries, and it shows.
Basically Lydia is Changeling!Molly, with powers beginning to come in and insufficient knowledge not to fuck with stuff she doesnt entirely understand. Molly is going to find that uncomfortably familiar.

Calling wildlife and making the earth shake with no training or idea of what she is doing makes her very powerful indeed by changeling standards, and a delectable morsel to be plucked while her father is distracted.
We shall be the bestest big sister in law for her.
 
Longterm goal: Capturing Chitchen Itza and claiming it as a manse Dragons Nest.
To be done sometime after we have our own inner Hell up and running, and so have people to hold it.
:V
Not a thing if extracting utterly loyal beings form the inner Hell was a possibility it makes Infernal's an unstoppable tide that even other exalted can't stop, and objectively the only exalted that matters. I doubt any native residents can even leave the Inner Hell.

If you want an army Demonic primacy of Essence, and Mana Maggot plague, to take over undertown. Train them with Chirality prohibition index, and buff futher with VEE. Given a few months you have several thousand strong army.
 
Longterm goal: Capturing Chitchen Itza and claiming it as a manse Dragons Nest.
To be done sometime after we have our own inner Hell up and running, and so have people to hold it.
Given what it was used for, I suspect that in this quest, there's a sidereal exaltation bound there, and that Red Court is using it to get access to perfects, similar to how demons were using our exaltation.
 
[X] Try to avoid a fight via Intimidation ( use Excellency)
-[X] As you take a step foward you look at the room. Dark, silent and with a heavy feel to the stagnant air. These creatures are not used to light and that might make enough of a difference. With a thought you let bright nuclear fire envelope your sword, uncounted burning eyes open above your head and your entire form is engulfed in a nimbus of green flames. Your next word is not the sound of a human voice, it is the dry, hot wind of deserts to be, the roar of infinite furnaces the sound that the world's end might make. "LEAVE".
 
[X] Try to avoid a fight via Intimidation ( use Excellency)
-[X] As you take a step foward you look at the room. Dark, silent and with a heavy feel to the stagnant air. These creatures are not used to light and that might make enough of a difference. With a thought you let bright nuclear fire envelope your sword, uncounted burning eyes open above your head and your entire form is engulfed in a nimbus of green flames. Your next word is not the sound of a human voice, it is the dry, hot wind of deserts to be, the roar of infinite furnaces the sound that the world's end might make. "LEAVE".
 
Well, I think we can say with high degree of certainty that she wasn't maliciuos in dating our brother. Because while Free Will is sacrosanct, I am fairly sure that a non-human magical trying to honeypot a non-involved Knight of the Cross's child would be shut down hard by White God. This gives us at least some information about her.
I don't know about shut down hard, but we would have gotten hints and signs. The white god doesn't seem to do anything blatant.
 
@uju32 unfortunetly you guys cannot get a signal underground with Clippy anymore than you would normally. Hollow Mind Possession is a very powerful charm for how cheap it is, both to buy and to cast, but it is also very limited. It does two things
  1. Puts an AI into a device giving it full control of what the device could already do.
  2. Hardens the device against loose mortal magic (though Harry throwing a Hexus at it would still work )
Your phone could not work in Undertown normally because of all the rock and dirt in the way and so it cannot work now.

On the matter of ghouls

Mercy in servitude would release them from the compulsion to feed and give them much more control when faced with a meal, but again they do need to get their superpowers somewhere so much like with the White Court ghouls would retain their need to eat a lot.
1)So magic cellphone goes way up on Molly's list of priorities. Noted.

2)Day to day ghouls dont seem to require a massive calorific intake day to day. They are allegedly always hungry

That said, turning it from a day to day compulsion to a requirement for big meals to refill the gas tank after sustained use of superpowers would make their condition a whole lot more manageable. Especially if it also allows for broadening diet; a twenty pound bag of beans with four pounds of chicken will feed a lot more ghouls than the same amount of chicken.

You dont need superpowers for the day to day, after all, just for actual conflict situations.

True, but she was doing magic already, and had techbane. So, in RPG terms, she had taken at least first, if not second level in wizard.
We shall be the bestest big sister in law for her.
Eh, they're both sixteen, and literally each other's first boyfriemd/girlfriend.
Very likely it doesnt last. Most relationships at that age dont.
Doesnt mean you cant remain friends, of course.


Not a thing if extracting utterly loyal beings form the inner Hell was a possibility it makes Infernal's an unstoppable tide that even other exalted can't stop, and objectively the only exalted that matters. I doubt any native residents can even leave the Inner Hell.

If you want an army Demonic primacy of Essence, and Mana Maggot plague, to take over undertown. Train them with Chirality prohibition index, and buff futher with VEE. Given a few months you have several thousand strong army.
1)Literally how Hollow Mind Possession works in this quest.

2)This is both implicitly allowed in the mechanics of the charm, and explicitly a thing in the lore of the Thousand Hells.
The Wicked City canonically has a lot of sway in the cities of southeast Asia for precisely that reason.

Furthermore in Dresden Files, the Warden of Demonreach can canonically parole some of the inmates as a combat force, and the Battlegrounds book was all about an actual invasion by Fomor being countered by the Winter Court and allies bringing forces into Chicago. Not to mention that in Ex2E Infernals, and indeed any sorcerer, could call up demons from Malfeas in significant numbers.

Its well in theme for all three settings involved here. The GM will determine how they choose to apply it here.

3) You think thats unbalanced?

Solars can massproduce WoD Mages with a one hour pep talk. One Solar could double the size of the White Council in six months.
Sidereals with Secret Arts can pull a mini-Chitchen Itza with no preptime. Lunars are what naagloshii want to be when they grow up; in fact, we can model Shagnasty as an experienced Lunar with Essence 3, sorcery, and ~4 dot Hearts Blood Background.

Infernals being able to access what human resources they have in their pocket Hell is only beginning to redress the balance.


Given what it was used for, I suspect that in this quest, there's a sidereal exaltation bound there, and that Red Court is using it to get access to perfects, similar to how demons were using our exaltation.
In vanilla ExWoD, it took the Black Vault from the First Age of Creation to hold the Solar and Sidereal Exaltations. It took all the power of the Thousand Hells to keep the Infernal Exaltations buried and quiescent.
In this quest it took the heart of Winter's Power to hold our Exaltation.

These are all top tier powers, or the products of toptier powers of their settings.
I dont really think the Reds have the swag to hold an Exaltation.
Let alone for several centuries.
 
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In vanilla ExWoD, it took the Black Vault from the First Age of Creation to hold the Solar and Sidereal Exaltations. It took all the power of the Thousand Hells to keep the Infernal Exaltations buried and quiescent.
In this quest it took the heart of Winter's Power to hold our Exaltation.

These are all top tier powers, or the products of toptier powers of their settings.
I dont really think the Reds have the swag to hold an Exaltation.
Let alone for several centuries.
Demons and Artcis Tor did. And we don't really know the origins of Chitchen Itza. It could well have been built there because the original site of the exaltation's prison was there. It could be a legacy of ages long past. If it's a lonely exaltation, and not all of them, I think it's plausible. Doesn't need to be true, of course. But it could be.
1)So magic cellphone goes way up on Molly's list of priorities. Noted.
It was always needed long-term, if visiting our Kingdom for longer than several hours was to be an option. Because we need to know when to leave, so bad guys can't use our absence against us.
Eh, they're both sixteen, and literally each other's first boyfriemd/girlfriend.
Very likely it doesnt last. Most relationships at that age dont.
Doesnt mean you cant remain friends, of course.
True. On the other hand, our brother is a good match for her in terms of supernatural politics due to his connection to Michael and Molly, so there's probably going to be support from her father for the match, and it could be true love.
 
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No she didn't, not exactly anyway. Remember the ruling we got that when she tried to pull on magic her exaltation eats it? That's why she can meditate for essence recovery. It takes all day to get our essence rating in motes back, but we can still technically do it.

Infernal Exalts, unlike solars, can be people who aren't fully mortal, and they retain some minor benefits from their original template. Dhampyrs, for example, can replenish essence by eating human flesh, and remain supernaturally lucky
Mercy in servitude would release them from the compulsion to feed and give them much more control when faced with a meal, but again they do need to get their superpowers somewhere so much like with the White Court ghouls would retain their need to eat a lot.

I'm rather surprised Mercy in Servitude works on ghouls. I can understand why it would work on White Court Vampires, as like bakemono, they're humans possessed by a spirit, so are analagous to them enough that a charm that shelters the mortal from the effect of possession would still work.

However, ghouls aren't possessed. They're simply scions, creatures that have an inherent characteristic of needing to feed. Mercy in Servitude wouldn't stop a regular WoD vampire or one of the Hungry Dead with insufficent enlightenment not need to eat humans, so I don't see why it would stop a ghoul from needing to?
 
Given what it was used for, I suspect that in this quest, there's a sidereal exaltation bound there, and that Red Court is using it to get access to perfects, similar to how demons were using our exaltation.
I think having some mid-tier gods bound there, as implied by canon, is more fitting for this situation.

If Molly's Exaltation proves one thing is that you have to keep your bound Exaltation away from any humans with the potential to exalt, or else they become several tiers harder to hold than they are anway.
And the Reds are not exactly keeping Mortals away from the entire area.
 
However, ghouls aren't possessed. They're simply scions, creatures that have an inherent characteristic of needing to feed. Mercy in Servitude wouldn't stop a regular WoD vampire or one of the Hungry Dead with insufficent enlightenment not need to eat humans, so I don't see why it would stop a ghoul from needing to?

They are scions which is to say descendants of what Harry calls Uber-ghouls and regular humans and the latter are pretty clearly beings of the nevernever, which would make ghouls spirit touched in with an inclination to spirits of gluttony and rage. I have to play around a bit with the equivalences because we are not in the same cosmology. Generally speaking I want to aim at what would make a more engaging story in line with the themes of the infernal exaltation. If I just said 'nope these are just mooks powered by cannibalism nothing you can do' that would close off a potential path for no real narrative gain.

Speaking of cannibalism, it should be noted that not all ghouls kill their meals. The ones who graduate to supernatural hitman and can function in mortal society sure, but the ones down here are more likely to come on the body of someone who has been killed by another predator with no interest in meat than they are to venture to the surface in search of prey.
 
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Damn it. Well if the path exists then we have to take it. Doing the right thing even when it's hard is what separates the heroic exalted from the horrific tyrants. Also it tends to be much richer in XP.

[X] Try to avoid a fight via Intimidation/inspiration ( use Excellency)
-[x]You walk into the room with the crown blazing on your head. With absolute certainly you state. "You work for me now. No longer will you be the bottom feeders of the world. You will be remade into something glorious all the greater for having rose up for the pit of depravation."
 
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[X] Try to avoid a fight via Intimidation ( use Excellency)
-[X] As you take a step foward you look at the room. Dark, silent and with a heavy feel to the stagnant air. These creatures are not used to light and that might make enough of a difference. With a thought you let bright nuclear fire envelope your sword, uncounted burning eyes open above your head and your entire form is engulfed in a nimbus of green flames. Your next word is not the sound of a human voice, it is the dry, hot wind of deserts to be, the roar of infinite furnaces the sound that the world's end might make. "LEAVE".
 
Ordering them to leave feels irresponsible. I am all for redemption, but just sending them away isn't the path to that. We need to take control.
 
We already have the power to take command of them by the power of empathy and charisma. If we can get them to follow us then solutions become much easier.
Not really. Being really scary for a scene isn't the same as running a reform program. Which we aren't really established enough to do.

There is an endless array of problems that will throw themselves at us now and in the future, if we jump in the deep end unprepared at every turn we'll rapidly lose the ability to help anyone at all.

We're barely one week out of our own emergency, and in the middle of sorting out another crisis right this second. We need to finish what's on our plate and try to get some things rolling resource wise at minimum before we try to become the patron saint of maddened subterranean cannibals.
 
Not really. Being really scary for a scene isn't the same as running a reform program. Which we aren't really established enough to do.

There is an endless array of problems that will throw themselves at us now and in the future, if we jump in the deep end unprepared at every turn we'll rapidly lose the ability to help anyone at all.

We're barely one week out of our own emergency, and in the middle of sorting out another crisis right this second. We need to finish what's on our plate and try to get some things rolling resource wise at minimum before we try to become the patron saint of maddened subterranean cannibals.
I feel like we should be able to find us for the ghouls in solving our current problems and the fact that we are in the middle of a big emergency means fast XP gain.
 
In the future, we'll be able to use Charms to solve their problems. Right now, we don't have those Charms, and are no more able to help them than any other. And since we're still scrambling for the more essential Charm purchases for our build (we don't even have Shaping defenses or soak Charms, yet), we don't have the spare XP to get that in the immediate future.

Scale back your expectations. Exalted grow, that's their Nature, and we have to walk before we can run. What you want to do is running.

[X] Artemis1992
 
I feel like we should be able to find us for the ghouls in solving our current problems and the fact that we are in the middle of a big emergency means fast XP gain.
So is this a mission of mercy, or are we farming them for cosmic power? Sure we can do both at once, but your pivot reads more like an attempt at distraction than an actual point.

We don't have time for an involved dialog here, since we can't guarantee Kat isn't aware of what we're up to, and we've got Lydia down here screwing around with something dangerous as well.

Sure this whole thing is a tragedy, but rushing doesn't help. It doesn't even measurably impact the actual problems at play. At best it soothes the conscience with the illusion of useful action.

Something we pay for by worsening the odds of resolving a concrete crisis we can actually do something about.
 
Demons and Artcis Tor did. And we don't really know the origins of Chitchen Itza. It could well have been built there because the original site of the exaltation's prison was there. It could be a legacy of ages long past. If it's a lonely exaltation, and not all of them, I think it's plausible. Doesn't need to be true, of course. But it could be.
Arctis Tor is the seat of power of one of the Great Powers of the setting.
All of Winter, which is not just Mab and Maeve, but Old Mother Winter, and all their vassals and allies. Its one of maybe two powers we've seen onscreen capable of holding an Exaltation against its will short of the forces of the White God in the Dresdenverse.

Chitchen Itza is pretty new as things go. Post-Christ settlement.

If the Reds had ever had the mojo to hold or even tap a fraction of the power of an Exaltation, history would be drastically different. For one thing, Cortez's expedition to the Americas, and all the subsequent Spanish claims on Central America and Mexico, would have been marked as eaten by the locals. Literally.

WoD had the Exaltations located in either the Himalayas or resting in the Spirit World.
It was always needed long-term, if visiting our Kingdom for longer than several hours was to be an option. Because we need to know when to leave, so bad guys can't use our absence against us.
Fair.
True. On the other hand, our brother is a good match for her in terms of supernatural politics due to his connection to Michael and Molly, so there's probably going to be support from her father for the match, and it could be true love.
Not really how supernatural politics works. Dynastic matches are not really a thing in DF, with very few exceptions.

Mab's daughters, for example, were the product of an affair with an Austrian composer by Word of Jim.
Not some political ploy.
The Dresdenverse is very meritocratic that way.
They are scions which is to say descendants of what Harry calls Uber-ghouls and regular humans and the latter are pretty clearly beings of the nevernever, which would make ghouls spirit touched in with an inclination to spirits of gluttony and rage. I have to play around a bit with the equivalences because we are not in the same cosmology. Generally speaking I want to aim at what would make a more engaging story in line with the themes of the infernal exaltation. If I just said 'nope these are just mooks powered by cannibalism nothing you can do' that would close off a potential path for no rel narrative gain.

Speaking of cannibalism, it should be noted that not all ghouls kill their meals. The ones who graduate to supernatural hitman and can function in mortal society sure, but the ones down here are more likely to come on the body of someone who has been killed by another predator with no interest in meat than they are to venture to the surface in search of prey.
Yeah, makes sense.

Even out in the wilds, some lion prides in Africa get upwards of 50% of their food from scavenging the dead and the kills of others.
Not to mention that trying to snatch humans for food is likely to make waves. Ghouls who make waves arent going to live very long before they stumble across someone who will take steps. And there is no healthcare for ghouls.

Even vampires generally rely on luring their victims into secluded locations where they can be predated on, not grabbing them off the street.
 
We don't have the power to do that yet.
Emphasis on yet.
This.
I feel like we should be able to find us for the ghouls in solving our current problems and the fact that we are in the middle of a big emergency means fast XP gain.
Not really. We dont have the charms to do this, we dont have the Resources Background or the Allies.

This is the point where we realize IC there is a problem in the first place with the ghouls, which spells further research.
But we do not compromise our primary mission, which is Cindy, or what looks like a secondary goal in Lydia.
The ghoul issue, if we take it up, is looking to be a significant problem in its own right, not something you rush.

Remember that, as @bengalqueen and @BronzeTongue have pointed out, we're a baby Exalt. Emphasis on baby.
We are not anywhere near equipped to guarantee our own safety yet, let alone taking responsibility for double digit numbers of facultative carnivores.

The best thing we can do for them now is scare them enough to run away, so we dont have to kill them.
When we're done with our necromancer problem, we can talk to Bob about ghoul magic biology, and Father Forthill on the ethics involved with dealing with them

Ultimately, I dont expect to get significant movement on this before E3, which is when we unlock the inner Hell as somewhere you can dump prisoners by the score.
 
Arctis Tor is the seat of power of one of the Great Powers of the setting.
All of Winter, which is not just Mab and Maeve, but Old Mother Winter, and all their vassals and allies. Its one of maybe two powers we've seen onscreen capable of holding an Exaltation against its will short of the forces of the White God in the Dresdenverse.

Chitchen Itza is pretty new as things go. Post-Christ settlement.

If the Reds had ever had the mojo to hold or even tap a fraction of the power of an Exaltation, history would be drastically different. For one thing, Cortez's expedition to the Americas, and all the subsequent Spanish claims on Central America and Mexico, would have been marked as eaten by the locals. Literally.

WoD had the Exaltations located in either the Himalayas or resting in the Spirit World.

Fair.

Not really how supernatural politics works. Dynastic matches are not really a thing in DF, with very few exceptions.

Mab's daughters, for example, were the product of an affair with an Austrian composer by Word of Jim.
Not some political ploy.
The Dresdenverse is very meritocratic that way.

Yeah, makes sense.

Even out in the wilds, some lion prides in Africa get upwards of 50% of their food from scavenging the dead and the kills of others.
Not to mention that trying to snatch humans for food is likely to make waves. Ghouls who make waves arent going to live very long before they stumble across someone who will take steps. And there is no healthcare for ghouls.

Even vampires generally rely on luring their victims into secluded locations where they can be predated on, not grabbing them off the street.
I'd like to note once we get wishes working up word of god we could make essentially boxes of infinitely replenishing pizza to the little fae for a single wish. A box of pizza which food respawns from honestly could feed an entire mortal town if just used 24/7 to produce as much food as possible. There might be some limits we can definitely with a fair few wishes feed an army though which is something to keep in mind and great. We could feed a lot of ghouls in a permanent fashion with enough wishes and the mercy power. This is of course long term planning its gonna be a minimum a few arcs from now likely more before we even start on this idea.
 
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