Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Rosie isnt poor. The latest update confirmed it.
You are making a mistake here. Rosie's father is rich / well off. Rosie's mother might be, but Rosie definitely isn't. We know the following:
1) Rosie was a victim of sexual molestation from her father's friend, and had to defend herself physically. Her mother (and presumably stepfather) chose not to believe her about it.
2) Her mother is pushing her to put the child for adoption, though not abortion.

In this situation, it is quite possible that Rosie will not be able to use her parent's resources, at least not without very significant pressure to dispose of the baby, or wouldn't be able to use the funds for the purposes of caring for the baby. This might well be "live under your rapist's roof, or starve on the street" situation.

[X] Magic and what he has seen of it
[X] The Church and and those in the know within it
[X] The unquiet dead you've... heard they can linger in hospitals

On further thought, I do agree that charities are a non-issue, given that we should acquire funds quickly.

EDIT:
For things that would normally need an extended skill roll, in this case technology the Crown does not give you the answers, but it can tell you which dark spirit or mad scientist to shake down for the answer or which library to look into.
So, no solving P=NP at a glance?
 
Last edited:
You are making a mistake here. Rosie's father is rich / well off. Rosie's mother might be, but Rosie definitely isn't. We know the following:
1) Rosie was a victim of sexual molestation from her father's friend, and had to defend herself physically. Her mother (and presumably stepfather) chose not to believe her about it.
2) Her mother is pushing her to put the child for adoption, though not abortion.

In this situation, it is quite possible that Rosie will not be able to use her parent's resources, at least not without very significant pressure to dispose of the baby, or wouldn't be able to use the funds for the purposes of caring for the baby. This might well be "live under your rapist's roof, or starve on the street" situation.

[X] Magic and what he has seen of it
[X] The Church and and those in the know within it
[X] The unquiet dead you've... heard they can linger in hospitals

On further thought, I do agree that charities are a non-issue, given that we should acquire funds quickly.

EDIT:

So, no solving P=NP at a glance?
That's true and you did mention not needing charities I would like to mention to others though charities are not a permanent fix at best they help you for a bit we live in a society where you can be permanently screwed and charities are small pick me ups not solutions.
 
Last edited:
[X] The Church and and those in the know within it
[X] The Denarians, you know a bit, but something tells you you are going to need a lot more understanding of them soon
 
So, no solving P=NP at a glance?

Unfortunately not and for the same reasons you can't use it to directly make new spells or learn a martial art, it can be instrumental to study but not replace it. Things like stealing lore right out of the Archive's head can fudge that, but it counts on someone, somewhere having solved it and written it down.
 
Yeah the whole charities thing is pretty stupid even if she was poor charities aren't permanent fixers. If anything charities are like alternative drugs where you go from one fix to another to stave off dying until the next charity except you know apositive thing. Just most aren't helpful at all long term. Even those that are charities cater to a thing most of the time. She's gonna be forced to go through anti drug things even when she's no longer addicted, then the help to get a job things which might not be needed, then the support for keeping.the baby charities which aren't much of a thing or to give them to adoption which doesn't help at all especially in this setting, and other stuff none of them are going to cater to all her needs. Meanwhile we have to actually look through all those things when we could just be helping her fix her problems.
Its not stupid per se. A lot of charities offer useful resources.
Its just that people are not updating their mental pictures to account for new information about Rosie's financial status, and are monofocusing on material concerns when there are also magical concerns in play.

You are making a mistake here. Rosie's father is rich / well off. Rosie's mother might be, but Rosie definitely isn't. We know the following:
1) Rosie was a victim of sexual molestation from her father's friend, and had to defend herself physically. Her mother (and presumably stepfather) chose not to believe her about it.
2) Her mother is pushing her to put the child for adoption, though not abortion.


In this situation, it is quite possible that Rosie will not be able to use her parent's resources, at least not without very significant pressure to dispose of the baby, or wouldn't be able to use the funds for the purposes of caring for the baby. This might well be "live under your rapist's roof, or starve on the street" situation.

[X] Magic and what he has seen of it
[X] The Church and and those in the know within it
[X] The unquiet dead you've... heard they can linger in hospitals

On further thought, I do agree that charities are a non-issue, given that we should acquire funds quickly.

EDIT:

So, no solving P=NP at a glance?
I dont agree.

1) The baby is not due for at least six months.
Its fate is a mediumterm concern, not a shortterm one. Everything before then is just words.

2)Note that until a couple weeks ago, Rosie was a heroin addict.
She's a teenager, and while street heroin is relatively cheap in the US, its not free. Where was the money coming from, other than her family, who would certainly not give her money once they realized she was using?

Did she steal money? Lie? Sneak out for drugs? Addicts will do a lot of stuff for their fix.
And that sort of thing kinda tanks your credibility when you later make a claim that requires people believe you and go out on a limb based on your testimony, like that your stepfather's buddy attempted to molest you.

A lot of predators do pick their targets with some care for their credibility.
A druggie kid who is known to be hostile to her stepdaddy would be a pretty attractive target; who would believe her?

3)This is Rosie's second teenage pregnancy. She miscarried the first.
They apparently didnt kick her out of the house after the first one, and they arent threatening to kick her out after this, or insisting she get an abortion. Her mother has been here in the hospital according to the nurse we met.

She's not abandoned. People care about her material welfare.
Care enough to make sure that her hospitalization does not screw over her education, even.

4) Molly has previously mentioned an aunt Liz who she expected would be willing and have the capacity to step in to cover Rosie's medical bills, and would presumably intercede or take her in if things with her in if relations with her mom broke down totally.
Thats before we found out that Mrs Wilson's husband is pretty well off.

The girl has more material options than 99% of the US population.

Basically, we have enough IC evidence that Rosie is not at risk of ending up on the street anytime soon.
Which means her shortterm concerns are not mundane, but magical, with regards to the magical talent she just developed, and how it makes her attractive to a whole array of magical predators, some of whom might be right there in the hospital.

====
Molly hasnt met Mrs Wilson onscreen, but I'm beginning to remember that Molly is not an impartial PoV character, and will reflexively side with her friend, who is herself not an impartial source of information.

Im beginning to sympathize with the woman, and we havent even met her; she's got to manage a teenage addict daughter who is demonstrably hostile to her husband, whether or not that emotion is reciprocated.
And she probably has other, younger children as well, whether her own or her husband's stepchildren.

Thats hard enough as it is.
 
Vote closed, let's see how this goes.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Aug 5, 2022 at 2:14 PM, finished with 77 posts and 17 votes.
 
I dont agree.

1) The baby is not due for at least six months.
Its fate is a mediumterm concern, not a shortterm one. Everything before then is just words.

2)Note that until a couple weeks ago, Rosie was a heroin addict.
She's a teenager, and while street heroin is relatively cheap in the US, its not free. Where was the money coming from, other than her family, who would certainly not give her money once they realized she was using?

Did she steal money? Lie? Sneak out for drugs? Addicts will do a lot of stuff for their fix.
And that sort of thing kinda tanks your credibility when you later make a claim that requires people believe you and go out on a limb based on your testimony, like that your stepfather's buddy attempted to molest you.

A lot of predators do pick their targets with some care for their credibility.
A druggie kid who is known to be hostile to her stepdaddy would be a pretty attractive target; who would believe her?

3)This is Rosie's second teenage pregnancy. She miscarried the first.
They apparently didnt kick her out of the house after the first one, and they arent threatening to kick her out after this, or insisting she get an abortion. Her mother has been here in the hospital according to the nurse we met.

She's not abandoned. People care about her material welfare.
Care enough to make sure that her hospitalization does not screw over her education, even.

4) Molly has previously mentioned an aunt Liz who she expected would be willing and have the capacity to step in to cover Rosie's medical bills, and would presumably intercede or take her in if things with her in if relations with her mom broke down totally.
Thats before we found out that Mrs Wilson's husband is pretty well off.

The girl has more material options than 99% of the US population.

Basically, we have enough IC evidence that Rosie is not at risk of ending up on the street anytime soon.
Which means her shortterm concerns are not mundane, but magical, with regards to the magical talent she just developed, and how it makes her attractive to a whole array of magical predators, some of whom might be right there in the hospital.

====
Molly hasnt met Mrs Wilson onscreen, but I'm beginning to remember that Molly is not an impartial PoV character, and will reflexively side with her friend, who is herself not an impartial source of information.

Im beginning to sympathize with the woman, and we havent even met her; she's got to manage a teenage addict daughter who is demonstrably hostile to her husband, whether or not that emotion is reciprocated.
And she probably has other, younger children as well, whether her own or her husband's stepchildren.

Thats hard enough as it is.
Exactly. As I've been saying, money isn't an issue right now and won't be for a while. The only real concern when it comes to Rosie is her health, physical and mental, as well as what impact various supernatural factors will have on it. Focusing elsewhere is a waste of time and attention, IMO.
 
I am 100% confident it was stated that she only knows stuff written down by humans.

Edit: What I am seeing as the source for this is Small Favour, ch 35.
Word of Jim:
2011 Marscon
Uh, could Ivy…does the Archive read digital? Or is it only print?
Does the archive read digital, or is it only print? No, she gets it all. Uh, and…yeah, and nobody ever planned for the amount of information that has actually shown up in the past 20 years or so. Uh, so yeah, that's not a good thing to be throwing on the…the little girl, don't-have-any-insulation-against-everything-Archive. (Jim chuckles evilly) Like, totally bad timing for that, haha. Uh, I think Ivy would punch me in the nose too
2011 DC signing
Does Ivy know everything Bob knows?
Man, talk about an obscure question. Probably the vast majority of it, yeah, although Ivy's more oriented toward things that are happening on Earth, and Bob has sources all over. [messing with the microphone] So, I would say it's more an issue of, they have different fields of information available to them. They don't, like, have a comparable database.
So Ivy doesn't get what Bob gets as soon as Bob gets it?
No

Basically, it seems the Archive gets primarily stuff on Earth.

But it doesnt really matter if it was written by a human, a nonhuman or a computer.
Which makes sense, given that the Archive was created to fight the Oblivion War against nonhumans; if it couldnt record stuff written by nonhumans on Earth, it wouldnt be able to coordinate action against the parthuman and nonhuman agents of the Outer Gods.
 
Word of Jim:



Basically, it seems the Archive gets primarily stuff on Earth.

But it doesnt really matter if it was written by a human, a nonhuman or a computer.
Which makes sense, given that the Archive was created to fight the Oblivion War against nonhumans; if it couldnt record stuff written by nonhumans on Earth, it wouldnt be able to coordinate action against the parthuman and nonhuman agents of the Outer Gods.
I just read that as the continuation of it being all human knowledge.

With the clarification that it isn't "written" knowledge literally, but recorded.

Technically you could say a computer doesn't write anything, but a human uses a computer to do so, as that may make a difference in too specific magic.

Edit: Though I guess looking at it again, Bob one disproves that.

It would require some interesting jumps to say "Bob doesn't record, his human users use him to record".

I am convinced, then.
 
Last edited:
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Aug 5, 2022 at 2:14 PM, finished with 77 posts and 17 votes.
 
Arc 1 Post 30: Of Matters Maleficent and Sublime
Of Matters Maleficent and Sublime

11th of July 2006 A.D.

"Where does the Church... er stand on magic?" you ask after a moment and a sip of tea. Obviously not 'suffer not a witch to live', but it would be nice to know how far you can count on the support of the Church and maybe Father Forthil himself. That feels a little mercenary even inside your own head but if an Angel saw fit to ask you not to look at what you aught not look at than you figure God Himself at least does not object to you looking in other places and doing other things and whatever else may be said, you did do good last Sunday and no ecclesiastic proclamation can take that from you.

"Ah well there is a hard question and no mistake." The old priest looks out the window for a moment, though you do not think he is seeing the evening sky. "I know for some in the Church who call magic all that is supernatural without God and miracles with God, so all magic is evil, or at the very least perilous to the soul by definition. Can you see the trouble that presents?"

After a moment's thought you hazard. "It presupposes that you always know what the judgement of God would be."

"Right," Father Forthil smiles, but he manages to do it without seeming patronizing, like he is genuinely glad you figured it out. "If let's say we were to ask a priest or prelate to marched with the armies of the Holy Roman Emperor in the Thirty Years War if the Protestant is able to know the love of God and he shielded by it, he would say 'no for that man is a heretic'. What then is the Protestant who raises a cross before a fiend or vampire performing unsanctioned magic? Or was he performing it then and his fellows are not now because canon no longer holds that they are doomed to hell who deny the Transubstantiation of the Flesh? It seems to me more reasonable that the eyes of men were blind than that God has changed His mind."

He delivers the whole speech in a even, but not monotonous voice, making what could have been a meandering walk though the woods of history and theology an engaging. Thus you find yourself leaning in to listen raptly.

"Now if we admit that the eyes of man can be blind in finding God's hand it follows that it would be wiser to err on the side of too much mercy over too much rigor. Innocent until proven guilty as the lawyer in me is inclined to put it."

Ah... lawyer that checks out, he isn't really preaching to you, it feels more give and take, like he is expecting you to measure his argument, the way a judge or a jury might do it. There has to be quite a bit of crossover though, you think impressed.

"That is I am happy so say where much of the Church is on matters of magic and the supernatural, even the Ordo Malleus whose fate is much tangled in the long and unhappy history of the Holy Office."

"The Inquisition," you catch on at once. "That's still out there? I mean sure the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is still in the Vatican, but that sounds like the are still opposing vampires, winter fey and the like."

The good Father seems a little taken aback by your interjection, but then his smile grows is anything warmer. "There aren't many your age who can drop the names of departments of the Roman Curia on a dime like that. You are right I don't mean the CDF, while its duties are of a grave and important nature such a public institution is ill suited in dealing with the occult and the supernatural. The Ordo Malleus as it splintered off the main stem of the Holly Office in the latter half of the last century is a far more informal affair, it recruits mostly in those areas that are in the most danger of the depredations of darkness, be they vampires, fey or false god. Its wandering agents are few and it is recommended that they not serve actively for a period of more than five consecutive years. It is all too easy to lose hope, and lose perspective if all you see is devastation before moving on. Leadership is for the most part collegial by necessity, too much control from above would open us to subversion from the many beings that can twist and warp the mind. We do answer to... certain figures within the Curia and through them to the Holy father, but that is a line left most often silent against utmost need."

"We," you catch on at once. "You are part of this Ordo Father?"

"I am, though I never found the will and the faith to serve as an itinerant member," he answers, eyes slipping wistfully to the window again.

"Father, you stayed at our house when the Denarians were in town three years ago, I think that is more courage and more faith than you would find wondering the four corners of the earth for fifty years not five."

"How did you know I was there?" he asks startled.

"I eavesdropped on mom and dad," you reply instantly and unashamed.

"And did you confess to doing so?"he probes watching you intently.

"It is bad form to confess to something you plan to keep doing." You pause in thought. "Though I guess now dad will just tell me stuff so I can stop listening at doors and that means I can confess."

"That is a very... interesting argument," he says. The tea does not quite go down smooth.

"I'm glad you think so father," you reply serenely. It was for a good cause.

After letting the silence linger a little while longer you set down your cup with a click you continue: "So those Denarians, I know a bit, but I have a feeling I'm going to have to know a lot more soon."

"A feeling?" Father Forthil sounds alarmed.

"Rational deduction not supernatural insight," you explain hurriedly. "If I am out there helping dad that changes things, tips the scales, they are going to want to tip it back." That sounds really arrogant you realize as soon as the words are out of your mouth, it also sounds as objectively true as 'the sun rises in the east' so you can't take it back either.

Fortunately the only thing you can read in his gaze is the gravity of the subject, not any doubt of your words. "The Order of the Blackened Denarius is seen by many as more of a plague or calamity to be endured than a foe to be defeated. By the Grace of God those who bear the Swords of the Cross may face them with some hope, if not to vanquish them than at least to stymie them. Forgive me for saying this but the thought of anyone as young as you being marked for their particular attention is... deeply troubling to me."

He says it with such deep sincerity you cannot bring yourself to resent it. "Can I show you something?" you ask.

At his cautious nod you get off the chair and take a step back to the center of the room, draw your sword from nowhere and set it alight with dreadful fire, letting it pour out of you until all is alight with the gaze of a thousand thousand baleful eyes. "I might not win, but I'll give them a fight they'll remember even if they live another two thousand years." The words are as finely balanced as the sword in your hand

Lost 2 Essence

You dismiss the sword as you sit back down, though you wave a little sheepishly at the many glittering eyes. "I can't turn that off, they'll go away after a while. On the plus side while they are out like that nothing can sneak up on me even if it's invisible intangible whatever."

"That sounds useful," his tone is dry, but you can read it in his tone that your point had been well made. As fiery eyes follow his every moment and hang on his every word he recounts what he knows of those Denarians which the Ordo Maellus knows of: First and most dangerous Nicodemus Archleone, ever wrapped in the blood-socked shadow of his own making, destroying records about himself as well as the witnesses to his deeds when he can, then Polonius Lartessa his wife, the last time the lovebirds had cooperated in earnest they had apparently produced the Black Death. They even had a kid in the family 'business', though for some reason Father Forthil is uncomfortable talking about her. You don;t push him, plenty of other monsters around. You learn who likes to recruit from the downtrodden and let desperation do most of the wok of corruption and who likes to set up elaborate schemes that take years to pay off placing a member of the Order in a trusted position. Apparently the Holy Order had lost twelve coins stripped from the Denarians in 1790 as Nicodemus took advantage of the chaos and bloodshed of the French Revolution to twist an old and well respected Jesuit to his side.

By far the oddest thing you learn is that there seems to be some kind of cycle to the coins when their last bearer has bee defeated. Even when a Denarian is killed but their coin is not recovered it takes at least another full year for the Fallen to publicly show themselves in the flesh of another host. Whether that be for their own arcane reasons, the will of their Dark Master or something deeper church scholars can only speculate.

But through the list of Angelic an mortal names, some only guessed at one thing jumps to your attention, the Church still does not know the name of Namshiel's host, the one you had Seen looking through Gorfel. Should you reveal it? It might well help and unlike dropping the whole conspiracy in the arms of the White Council this would not reveal the full power of your Crown... on the other hand anyone who traces the name to Father Forthil is not that far from you.

What do you do?

[] Reveal the name of Namshiel's bearer

[] Do not reveal the name of Namshiel's bearer


OOC: Asking about ghosts so you can hopefully protect Rosie better will be in the next update
 
Last edited:
[X] Reveal the name of Namshiel's bearer

Knowledge is useless without being used, the good father would not reveal it carelessly.
 
Three points worth making
1) Reallife, a lot of kids dont get adopted.

2)IC, whether or not to keep the child is not Molly's decision to make. She can certainly decide for Rosie, but she would be using charms to do so.

3) The history of what happened to Maggie Dresden's foster family the Mendozas, and what happened with both Dresden and Elaine in the foster system suggest that fostering a child is not the safest proposition for someone connected to supernaturals.
There's already a target on their backs.

4) There are canon indications according to the RPG that Molly using black magic was the result of a lowkey plot by someone.

Sandra Marling was a parttime volunteer at the homeless shelter where Molly served community service for drug possession and befriended Molly there. She was also the chair of Splattercon, and the person who "coincidentally" mentioned the use of fear to bypass addictions to Molly, which got Molly looking into fear spells and mental magic.

According to the RPG, when Dresden went looking, she had vanished so thoroughly afterwards that Dresden, an experienced investigator with magical resources, wasnt able to find her afterwards. That means Rosie's condition is the intended result of someone's plan aimed at Molly.

If she puts any kids up for adoption, someone's going to be interested for leverage.
Adoption rates vary by age; the younger the child the more likely the adoption. We don't need to rely on random chance either, we can use the crown to pick people who who can and will be good parents.

I'm aware that it's Rosie's choice, and I don't think I've implied otherwise. We are her friend though, and one of her key pillars of support. The advice we give matters, so we should actually consider all the angles and work out the best possible path forwards and why for when we have this discussion with her. Not just make a feel good decision on impulse.

The problem with Dresden's family was at least partially that Susan would continually visit and she herself was interesting. As of right now Rosie isn't interesting, or at least isn't interesting enough. It's worth noting that no one tried to leverage Rosie or her kid against Molly in canon, even when she stepped up to fill Dresden's shoes.

You want to talk about security? The more we involve ourselves the less safe Rosie is, and we can't actually stop a determined hit squad form doing whatever they want to her unless we're right there when it happens.

Is the RPG even canon? Those plot points never become relevant in the actual books, so I don't see much additional value in them. If whoever did it fucks off into the sunset they're not a problem, if they're so good they can pull a subtle job like this then we lack the capability to stop them both now and in the near future.

If the kid is adopted and we keep some separation from both of them they're probably fine, if we involve them deeply then Rosie and her baby both definitely become targets.
 
If the vote to share the names of Gorfel's superiors/co-conspirators hadn't been to leave that information for Harry to investigate rather than share it with Ebeneezer, I would be more willing to share Thorned Namshiel's name with the priest. Since the vote was to keep that info compartmentalized, I'm going to stick to that decision even though I didn't agree with it. It's been a couple days, so changing our minds so quickly doesn't make sense so quickly.

[X] Do not reveal the name of Namshiel's bearer
 
[X] Do not reveal the name of Namshiel's bearer

Sucks that sharing it is dangerous, but it's a little early to give the game away.

As an aside, now that we know Forthill is an inquisitor we should make him a fancy rosary for purely meme reasons at some point.

Possibly with the closest thing to a chain sword we can manage to go with it. :V
 
Back
Top