Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

Cetashwayo said:

Yeah, being all-male does not preclude radical politics or mean they will never be open to your own advances. It does mean they have issues which you will have to address.

I will remind members of the sect I have never mentioned a female member of the Scourge of God for a reason, and this will become an issue: Jurors are themselves a male-dominated order where women have no voice on the jury floor. There are no female Elder Jurors. Your sect is small, and this principle is so ingrained, that this hasn't yet become an open question, but it absolutely will if both the Convent and the Scourge keep growing.

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I am almost sure you've probably answered this, so my apologies, but how does this interact with the factory side of Juror bodies/etc? In terms of the composition of factory-workers by gender/etc, etc? Or am I misremembering something. I could be, tbh. (When I catch up I might just reread the whole Quest.)

The Laurent said:

I am almost sure you've probably answered this, so my apologies, but how does this interact with the factory-worker side of Juror bodies/etc? In terms of the composition of factory-workers by gender/etc, etc?

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Juror factories are generally very heavy industry-oriented and in male-dominated areas. It doesn't totally preclude women on the ironshrine floor but they're not usually hired and are instead sent into other forms of labour. The issues you might have expected historically with conflicts in the labour movement between men and women are present here, though the Ravs of Labour, importantly, are an all-gender organization and represent both men and women's issues, which is frankly more than a lot of labour orgs in the historical 19th century could claim.

Anchises said:

Yeah but why would we pick an open street battle? Hit and run + good press coverage seems like a far better idea?

We are in the age of machine guns which means urban guerilla is going to be a better approach than building barricades. Especially because we didn't arm ourselves for a head on fight.

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To be clear this is why I picked the Idol-Smashers, cause they have knowledge of urban warfare.

[X] With the Rage of Rehabam we destroy our foes [Fervor rises to Absolute, recruitment will continue, the sect will prioritize absolute militancy over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Makabam, the Idol-Smashers of Old Nach [Gain a contact in the Political Iconoclast sect and its experienced streetfighters, who give your sect special advice in urban warfare].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.

Blood in the night, you have awoken a hundred thousand voices.

[X] With the Wrath of Barabas we wipe away our enemies [Discipline rises to Absolute, recruitment will pause, the sect will prioritize absolute order over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend itself against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Makabam, the Idol-Smashers of Old Nach [Gain a contact in the Political Iconoclast sect and its experienced streetfighters, who give your sect special advice in urban warfare].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.

I am crying at this. I haven't cried at a funeral for a real person since my father passed, but this fictional kid whose subplot I wasn't even paying attention to until now...Jesus, Ceta, that's some writing.

TheMaskedReader said:

Comrade, don't know how to break this to you, but we are the ultrapugilists. Canonically we are the most radical pugilist sect in the city at the moment, as shown during the radical marches. Don't be worried about them swallowing our doctrinal progress - Rejoice in that through collaboration, our doctrine will spread!

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Ultrapugilism is the absence of political radicalism, its like the defanged version of pugilism that remained after the first wave of radical pugilism failed.

Ultimately I can't stop people from voting for the Mo'an but I'm not comfortable with allying with the all-male radical sports club that doesn't have a clear theoretical basis for their political radicalism. They defintively have potential to develop in the wrong direction imo.

With the Scourge already having a problem with women an all-male ally that's also focused on violence/fighting its also kind of a bad precedent.

I think Ohr offers us a smart way to fight the Jury in the chaos that is going to come and for the future they are a far more valuable all with their press connections and the abilities they offer us to develop our doctrine further. Its easy to forget but our doctrine is underdevloped and honing and refining it with bits from true confession is our best bet to unite our natural appeal to agrarian mouflons that all pugilists have with a modern doctrine that is attractive to urban industrial mouflons and jurors.

By the very fact that they were radical enough to get targetted by the Jurors in the first place means that they have more in common with us ideologically than not.

You cannot truly develop feminism and any other doctrine if you are afraid of allying with factions that share most of your foundational beliefs, but disagree with you, or at least have not even considered, one fact of your ideology. You win by allying with them and then either converting them or learning enough about them to backstab them in a weak point.

The very fact that they have the potential to develop into a bad direction is even stronger of an argument to try and learn about them and convert them now. If we can manage a conversion through shared struggles, we'll have less issues with claiming leadership with Pugilism in the future. And if we cannot, and Ma'on becomes a rival faction for domination, then well we would know enough about them to deal with them.

Fundamentally this method of putting your allies through an ideological purity test is very stupid. Its again, doing the work of the oppressors for them because you are the one applying divide and conquer to your own faction. Revolutions are build on Alliances, compromises and blood. We will not amount of anything if we are afraid to tangle with such a large source of manpower. It makes no sense.

You are viewing the Ma'on as an enemy and a threat when the Sword Altar Banner literally has a gun to everyone's heads. If you hate them so much after we survive the coming storm side by side with them, then fine. If we beat the Originating Juries and Circles, we'll cut ties with them. We splinter the United Front and duke it out to decide who will claim leadership of Pugilism and then rest of Vasp. That's how Revolutionary Struggles works.

But first, the Originators and the Sword-Altar Banner needs to die, and in order to accomplish that both the Sanhedron and our Sect need an allied army in this city right now in order to not get all murdered.

[X] With the Wrath of Barabas we wipe away our enemies [Discipline rises to Absolute, recruitment will pause, the sect will prioritize absolute order over the next few weeks as it prepares measures to defend itself against the Jury of Nachivan].
[X] Makabam, the Idol-Smashers of Old Nach [Gain a contact in the Political Iconoclast sect and its experienced streetfighters, who give your sect special advice in urban warfare].
[X] Elder Komandir Varhan Sarbadgar, who brings with him the support of his Pale Horse Standard and some of the most extreme veterans of the War with the Mare, many of them on leave in Nachivan and spoiling for a fight.

Going to come in on the side of Lightning over Flame, i think.

I cannot stress this enough, we are literally in the opening days of the Revolution, maybe just the Prelude to it.

It's possible that we remain allies with whichever Sect we pick all the way to the end. Or it's possible we'll splinter and kill each other. Its a marriage of convenience to stop the Sword-Altar Standard from killing everyone before the year is over, not a true love soul-mates match. If after surviving we find out we are incompatible, break the Alliance and go for the knife.

The CPC and the KMT did exactly this twice, and the second time was after the KMT purged the CPC down to like 1000 dudes running into the mountains.

[X] Ma'on, the gunpowder-fists of the Western Navel [Gain a contact in the Militant Pugilist sect and its squads of street-toughs, granting strong bodies on the ground].
[X] Makabam, the Idol-Smashers of Old Nach [Gain a contact in the Political Iconoclast sect and its experienced streetfighters, who give your sect special advice in urban warfare].

Force multipliers are well and good, but we first need a force to multiply, and no revolution was won without mass action on the streets backing it up even in the face of violent suppression. Still, I am quite sympathetic towards the Iconoclsam's causes and rhetoric, and therefore will include the vote for them as well. It really would do us a lot of good to establish a contact with them for cooperative action and training, if perhaps not right now.

Personally…
I think you have forgotten when we last marched with our fellow pugilists- that when you think of fighting the Sword-Alter you ask yourself what you have to fight with…And for manpower your eyes go no further then this temple!

But does not the whole of the city think that the Sword-Alter has accepted the mantle of Evil? And, following along with that, we were not the only ones targeted that cruel night, were we?

I think the Ma'ou will have little ability to preserve their thoughts if left to wither, and as we are not to be the only banner standing up to Evil, we do not need to think only in terms of recruiting more bodies by which to stay above the incoming Flood!

But! I will also say I have little head for all this complexity, and understanding what precisely should be done.

The people who are categorically stating that their option is the one and only sure-fire method to avoid immediate death are just wrong. If that was the case, if there was an actual objectively correct path forward and all other roads led to disaster, we wouldn't be voting on it. At best it reads like unwarranted panic and at worst like an effort to manipulate the vote through fearmongering.

Ma'on is a valid option, sure. It'll give us extra muscle and more pugilist support. But it is not the only option that will save us from being summarily murdered by the Sword-Altar Standard. It is not the only option that will allow us to be effective in the coming days. Those assertions are not backed by the evidence.

Moreover, allying with Ma'on is not the one path forward by which we prevent them from falling to fascism or from lashing out wildly and getting destroyed. Again, there is no evidence to back these assertions.

What we have are a series of options that will determine the character of the sect. I picked Ohr because I like Confession, because I think having movement (and attack, since there are arguments that conveniently omit the attack value) routes will make us agile and unpredictable in the coming days, and because what we need is asymmetrical tactics rather than meeting brute force with brute force. I avoided Ma'on because I don't like their all-male composition. I accept that these arguments are not universally accepted, and I don't claim that they're objectively true. If you want the sect to be more about frontal assaults or smuggling or guerrilla warfare, then those are all valid options. Follow your bliss.

What is not valid is casting this as the decisive moment in which we determine the entire fate of the sect and any option other than your preferred one will lead to immediate and irrevocable doom. Again, that's panic at best and fearmongering at worst. People should just vote for what they like without being carried away by doomsaying or being pressured by some made-up imperative for a specific course of action. That's why this quest is fun, after all.

Now, with that said, I want to rally people behind the Wrath of Barabas because I think what we need at this moment is a single focused lightning strike that will echo far beyond its actual material impact. Giving in to rage and popping off won't be nearly as cool as something planned and coordinated and targeted. We have a real opportunity to look like badass geniuses here. We shouldn't pass it up.

What is also not valid is calling Fervour blind rage. That choosing it automatically means we'll go half-cocked and immediately blindly lash out. That's not what Fervour is.

Cetashwayo said:

1) Fervour, the energy of the sect for radical and necessary change in the face of overwhelming odds, trusting only in God,

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Fervour is the energy and enthusiasm to act. The internal emotional strength to face a wall and have the mental energy to adapt to the existence of the wall. Yes, anger can and often is part of the energy to adapt and persevere in the face of adversity. But that's not a bad thing. Righteous anger towards injustice is what causes reforms and revolutionary change. It's the strength to be willing to stand up and not hide our heads.

(Note I am not saying Discipline is hiding that would be ridiculous).

Our Sect specializes in Discipline and with the winning votes will be getting the support of the most celebrated commander of our country and his most veteran soldiers, who can help with instilling discipline so that everyone is marching on the same track.

To claim that we'd go out in a blind rage and fuck things up is in itself disingenuous.

I think going with Fervor will be less disciplined than the Discipline option. I accept that it won't manifest in us just blindly charging into the foe, but it won't be as tightly coordinated as the other choice just by its nature. Personally, what I think we need right now is absolute Discipline so we can enact something really powerful against our enemies. Something that hits well above our weight class and resonates far beyond the action itself. Something tightly-wired. That's what I'd rather see, not a direct confrontation that could result in a lot more funerals.

etranger01 said:

What we have are a series of options that will determine the character of the sect.

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At the end of the day thiy yeah. I don't think Ma'on are the guys I want to ally with and play a role in how our sect develops.

Pugilism is a very populist schism and confession is a pretty scholarly schism. Intellectual input that gives us a solid grounding into what's wrong with Vasp's political and economic situation is really helpful for us and confession offers the best answers in that regard. Ohr as a scholarly movement is exactly what we need imo.

Safehouses, escape and attack routes also fit better with what we preach to the jurors. Fighting smart and preserving our lives instead of trying to fight the jury head-on.

etranger01 said:

I think going with Fervor will be less disciplined than the Discipline option. I accept that it won't manifest in us just blindly charging into the foe, but it won't be as tightly coordinated as the other choice just by its nature. Personally, what I think we need right now is absolute Discipline so we can enact something really powerful against our enemies. Something that hits well above our weight class and resonates far beyond the action itself. Something tightly-wired. That's what I'd rather see, not a direct confrontation that could result in a lot more funerals.

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Okay.

What would that be? This "something tightly-wired"

You cannot just say "I want something cool with Discipline that will allow us to punch above our weight" without actually giving a plan.

For all that some people rag on the people voting Ma'on and to a lesser extend the Makabam as idiots who want to fight the Jury head on. They have an operational plan already. In the former, its a concentrated push from the United Pugilists, united by Fervour and the Pale Horse, to threaten and potentially take the Grand Synod. Which would buy time for the Sanhedron Elders and our other allies to gather and coordinate more allies outside of the city.

With Makabam, with a coordinated strike. They can probably distract the Sword-Altar and tie them up in another part of the city, while the Sect and the Pale Horse take the Grand Synod in a decapitation strike. It lacks the means to force a stalemate, but immediate victory against the Synod to hopefully destabilize the Originators is not a bad idea either.

These are not the smartest plans, but they are simple and functional.

There are of course other plans. And I see other combinations that work. But people need to actually lay them out instead of saying "something cool and efficient".

@Deadly Snark you are voting on our allies. We don't get to dictate plans to them. Lets not pretend that voting for Ma'on is voting for the plan you laid out there. This is the scenario you think is likely but we don't know what is going to happen when the fight starts and lets please not pretend we do.

Repeating over and over that "we don't have the manpower to use the attack routes" Ohr offers us is <citation needed>. I like our chances more with secret tunnels we can use for lightning terror attacks or quick assassinations and other actions of that nature.

Deadly Snark said:

Okay.

What would that be? This "something tightly-wired"

You cannot just say "I want something cool with Discipline that will allow us to punch above our weight" without actually giving a plan.

For all that some people rag on the people voting Ma'on and to a lesser extend the Makabam as idiots who want to fight the Jury head on. They have an operational plan already. In the former, its a concentrated push from the United Pugilists, united by Fervour and the Pale Horse, to threaten and potentially take the Grand Synod. Which would buy time for the Sanhedron Elders and our other allies to gather and coordinate more allies outside of the city.

With Makabam, with a coordinated strike. They can probably distract the Sword-Altar and tie them up in another part of the city, while the Sect and the Pale Horse take the Grand Synod in a decapitation strike. It lacks the means to force a stalemate, but immediate victory against the Synod to hopefully destabilize the Originators is not a bad idea either.

These are not the smartest plans, but they are simple and functional.

There are of course other plans. And I see other combinations that work. But people need to actually lay them out instead of saying "something cool and efficient".

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I'm not the QM. I can give my opinion on which of the options presented I think will lead to the outcome I want, but I'm not an experienced urban guerrilla nor a radical schismatic nor the person who writes the quest. What specific form a disciplined, coordinated strike takes is not within my ability to predict or determine.

That said, I've got a sort of idea that Cetash can use if he likes. I think we should respond in kind by targeting their leadership rather than brawl with the rank-and-file. Attack-escape routes and our cache of rifles would allow us to set up ambushes or sniper attacks directed at the Sword-Altar officers. Our beef with the Nachivan Jury isn't with the guys who it sends out to pull the trigger, it's with the ones sitting fat and happy in their offices giving the orders. A targeted decapitation strike would let us take out the real enemy rather than losing our own people fighting potential future converts.

Anchises said:

At the end of the day thiy yeah. I don't think Ma'on are the guys I want to ally with and play a role in how our sect develops.

Pugilism is a very populist schism and confession is a pretty scholarly schism. Intellectual input that gives us a solid grounding into what's wrong with Vasp's political and economic situation is really helpful for us and confession offers the best answers in that regard. Ohr as a scholarly movement is exactly what we need imo.

Safehouses, escape and attack routes also fit better with what we preach to the jurors. Fighting smart and preserving our lives instead of trying to fight the jury head-on.

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The Ma'on are not 21st century Earth Reactionary Men's right Activists. They are literally just 19th century social clubs and pubs which self-select for men because that's how gender norms at the time worked. They are not against female rites exactly, though some of them will be, the issue with gender relationships and theory in this sort of period is that a lot of men simply do not think about it. They are not seeing the issue, and they will not see the issue unless it is pointed and demonstrated to them.

If you are afraid of approaching the Ma'on, who share our ideals in basically everything but that bit, then our push for Women's rites will never make much progress in the other parts of the country where people arent Pugilists who are already well inclined towards us for the most part. Doctrinally, this is actually a pretty good trial run for Women's rites. Because they are friendlies and ideological comrades.

Yes yes, the scholar + warrior combo is very good. But it's not what we need right now. You are putting the cart before the horse. The advantage Ohr offers is not the intellectual input, because intellectual input doesnt matter worth a damn when an army is threatening to kill everyone. You want to ally with them after this is over to get that intellectual and doctrinal development, sure, though I would prefer Amalism. Right now our priority is on survival. So this whole bit does not and will not matter unless we do survive.

And Ohr's main advantages on this front are the escape routes yes, and also their ability to help the Sanhedron elders rally allies. But the latter is something they'll do anyways. And the former, well sorry. But the Sect has 1000 Combatants. We are not going to secret tunnels guerilla victory our way to stopping the Originators with just 1000 combatants. Force multipliers needs a force to multiply.

Also no, that's not what the Doctrine of Extinguishment means.

Extinguishment does not preach preserving the lives of soldiers and Jurors at whatever cost. It preaches that the current military order is completely fucked. That Immolation has been turned into a tool of oppression by power hunger oppressors who do not actually care about the lives of their men and making reforms or learning lessons about their mistakes. It strikes at Martyrdoom becoming a way for Juries to shut off any criticism.

What the Sect preaches is that Soldiers should try to live and fight another day whenever possible. But that if they are in a position where they have to go fight and die, then it's better for the nation and their souls that they fight and die for causes they believe in, for people who love and care for them, instead of the parasites using them as tools to oppress the people. To both Live and if Necessary die for causes that are righteous and to Stand for Justice.

Now safehouses, secrets routes and etc do not go against the Doctrine of Extinguishment.

But at the same time, Fervour and mustering a united front of people willing to fight in the city also do not go against the Extinguishment. Because nobody is being asked to lay down and die for uncaring master. The Fervour votes are asking people to unite, rise up their heads and roar that they are alive in the of the Oblivion represented by the Sword. To defend the Sanhedron who at least is trying to reform, to protect the innocents who have done nothing, to guard the Schismatics who simply want to make the world better. To live in the light and if they have to die, die in the light for the cause of Justice.

etranger01 said:

Our beef with the Kedarkan Jury isn't with the guys who it sends out to pull the trigger, it's with the ones sitting fat and happy in their offices giving the orders.

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I think you mean the Nachivan Jury. The High Jury of Kedarkan which resides east of Nachivan in Makha Circle is the theoretical authority over the Jury of Nachivan which has lost control of its subordinate.

Anchises said:

Pugilism is a very populist schism and confession is a pretty scholarly schism. Intellectual input that gives us a solid grounding into what's wrong with Vasp's political and economic situation is really helpful for us and confession offers the best answers in that regard. Ohr as a scholarly movement is exactly what we need imo.

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Saying the quiet part out loud, eh?

Let's just say assuming that Confession has the Truth of everything wrong with Vaspukaran and the answers thereto is quite a big leap of its own. And at the start of the quest people voted to be Pugilists. Trying to turn the Sect into a de facto arm of True Confession by leaping on the Confessor options at every turn will not work. The HaKhofshim are more than capable of articulating their own perspectives and answers about conditions in Vaspukaran, as are other sects like the Amalists and Iconoclasts we can draw influence from.

As to the immediate needs of the situation we do not need more or better doctrine to face the Jurors. There look to be two options to pursue. One is to take advantage of feeling against the Sword and Altar Jury to engage in mass action aimed at turning the city and the country as a whole against the Originators. The other is to engage in direct action against the Jurors with hit-and-run attacks using the routes that Ohr has available. That is to say do we want bodies in the street protesting and rioting or do we want to be an urban terrorist group? Because that's what "hit-and-run" and "selective attacks" and "discipline for spectacular action" are. And generally speaking direct action and urban terrorism have failed miserably in the long run while mobilizing the masses has a better track record.

Then in the long run helping consolidate the Pugilists of Nachivan into a more united block, with significant influence over them, is the most obvious and direct way to make HaKhofshim a factor in the politics of the Sanhedrim and Patriarchate.

Cetashwayo said:

I think you mean the Nachivan Jury. The High Jury of Kedarkan which resides east of Nachivan in Makha Circle is the theoretical authority over the Jury of Nachivan which has lost control of its subordinate.

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Fixed!

etranger01 said:

I'm not the QM. I can give my opinion on which of the options presented I think will lead to the outcome I want, but I'm not an experienced urban guerrilla nor a radical schismatic nor the person who writes the quest. What specific form a disciplined, coordinated strike takes is not within my ability to predict or determine.

That said, I've got a sort of idea that Cetash can use if he likes. I think we should respond in kind by targeting their leadership rather than brawl with the rank-and-file. Attack-escape routes and our cache of rifles would allow us to set up ambushes or sniper attacks directed at the Sword-Altar officers. Our beef with the Nachivan Jury isn't with the guys who it sends out to pull the trigger, it's with the ones sitting fat and happy in their offices giving the orders. A targeted decapitation strike would let us take out the real enemy rather than losing our own people fighting potential future converts.

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Congratulations on rediscovering Propaganda of the Deed from first principles. It uh... didn't work the first time and probably won't now.

Anchises said:

@Deadly Snark you are voting on our allies. We don't get to dictate plans to them. Lets not pretend that voting for Ma'on is voting for the plan you laid out there. This is the scenario you think is likely but we don't know what is going to happen when the fight starts and lets please not pretend we do.

Repeating over and over that "we don't have the manpower to use the attack routes" Ohr offers us is <citation needed>. I like our chances more with secret tunnels we can use for lightning terror attacks or quick assassinations and other actions of that nature.

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That's a cope out. Allies might not dictate plans, but they can discuss them. If we are allying with others, we are going to want to come to them with a plan. They might accept or refuse, and then we'll debate. But its crucial that we actually have an idea of what we'd like to do, so that we can debate and hash things out with the Pale Horse and any other allies.

Going "well I dont know its not my job" is a failure for a Revolutionary Movement. The only true advantage that Revolutionaries have against ossified regimes is that their mindframes are not constrained and they can come together and consider various plans and then take political actions and make alliances in service of those plans.

The Sect has optimistically 1000 combatants per Cetash. 1000 can do some damage if the plan is correct, but crucially that demands having the outline of a potential plan first. Without that, just throwing them in a blood hit and run campaign at an army is a losing proposition. Because tactical victories dont mean anything unless backed up by good strategy and operational goals.

Cavalier said:

Congratulations on rediscovering Propaganda of the Deed from first principles. It uh... didn't work the first time and probably won't now.

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Hey, thanks for the condescending post. There's a reason I suggested targeting military officers instead of civilian officials. They're legitimate targets and also their loss would genuinely debilitate the opposition's ability to organize effectively. Going after the officers is a pretty time-tested battlefield tactic and happens to be quite effective. But don't let that get in the way of talking down to me, I guess.