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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Good Seed and Omake Spreadsheet Rules:

    Firstly, if you have questions about Good Seeds and the like please read here. If that doesn't answer your question please ping me in thread, or on Discord.

    If you write a new Good Seed, or write an omake, please update the spreadsheet if you have access.

    If you do not have access, please ping a collaborator (Swordomatic, Alectai, Quest, TehChron, Insane-Not-Crazy, Humbaba, ReaderOfFate, Kaboomatic, no., BungieONI) letting them know what you want and they will update the spreadsheet here. To gain access, you will need a gmail account of some kind. Throwaway emails are fine (I'm using one for the spreadsheet), but to gain access it's as simple as sending me either your email via PM, via DM in Discord, or just in Discord's #spreadsheet-requests channel.

    This is mandatory. If a Good Seed does not record their omake by pinging collabs (or just requesting access and editing things themselves - this is the preferred option), I won't give out awards. If a new Good Seed is not recorded here, they won't advance. By doing this it makes the whole thing manageable for me - it's gotten pretty unwieldy!

    -----------------------

    Omake Writer Instructions:

    There are four fields you need to fill out.

    Omake Link, which is just a link to your first omake for the turn. This makes it easier for me to read them as I do the update - without this it's tough to know off the bat which omake were written this turn, and to properly

    Requested Bonus, which is your requested bonus for your omake. You can leave it up to me if you like. You can see more info in the Good Seed infopost here.

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    • TehChron said:
    What land route do you see this hypothetical raid of yours taking, exactly?

    There's only two: The one through the Devil Bees heartlands to the south, and the Colossus Footstep Path which opens directly into the heartland of the Strength Purity Sect, and from there requires navigating through their lands just to head south into RP held territory. Which is then a further journey south just to get into the parts of the Verdant South held by Old Cannibal and his faction.

    Both of these routes present insurmountable problems for your entire plan.
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    Daemon Hunter said:
    1. It's because OC is good at what he does, not to mention he has treasures of his own.
    2. By right there do you mean literally the diameter of the Earth away? That is far outside of reasonable reinforcement range without being spotted, which Mannuel absolutely would be if he just dropped what he was doing. If OC doesn't have spies in the Blacksmiths, he's an idiot.
    3. It's dumb to raid because it is absolutely easy for OC to deal with our raids.
    4. Sheng is good, he is not can deal with a Nascent alone good.
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    Past the Night Devil Fortress and into the Abyssal Bee Sect heartlands. Then a return from there. Diameter of the Earth or not, it doesn't take long for a Nascent to head across a single border.

    The argument against Raiding can't be 'because Old Cannibal', as that would cripple anything we do from second-guessing. If it helps, most of his Nascents are probably two or more territories away.

    Sheng is absolutely 'deal with a Nascent' good, that's the whole point of the Raid action. Every faction has a Nascent, and yet the Raid action is still a default option. Jingshen had two Nascents as well, before we got the boost of Sheng Yu's expertise.
     
    Olivebirdy said:
    The argument against Raiding can't be 'because Old Cannibal', as that would cripple anything we do from second-guessing. If it helps, most of his Nascents are probably two or more territories away.

    Sheng is absolutely 'deal with a Nascent' good, that's the whole point of the Raid action. Every faction has a Nascent, and yet the Raid action is still a default option. Jingshen had two Nascents as well, before we got the boost of Sheng Yu's expertise.
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    1. Any Nascent would be able to do what OC can here, that's why it isn't a good idea.
    2. Sure we can damage them, but none of the attacking force is going to make it out alive if they hit anything of importance.
    3. Blood Path generally doesn't have massive wealth mines to hit like the Jingshen did, we'd have to hit hundreds of targets to make even a minor note.
     
    Daemon Hunter said:
    1. Any Nascent would be able to do what OC can here, that's why it isn't a good idea.
    2. Sure we can damage them, but none of the attacking force is going to make it out alive if they hit anything of importance.
    3. Blood Path generally doesn't have massive wealth mines to hit like the Jingshen did, we'd have to hit hundreds of targets to make even a minor note.
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    I'm just going to point to the mechanics on this one. The mechanics don't care whether we're Raiding Jingshen or Abyssal Bees.

    Is your position that it's always bad to use the default Raid option, because any Nascent faction can wipe out our raiders?

    TehChron said:
    ...Look.

    Do you think that the home territory of.the Abyssal Devil Bees is literally empty or something?

    I cant fathom any other scenario where that explanation makes sense.
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    A Raid does not require the selected territory be empty. We're going in, wrecking and stealing, then going out. Either it's safer to attack the heartland because the armies are all invading the South, or there's a Nascent or two to bait to the desert border.
     
    Olivebirdy said:
    I'm just going to point to the mechanics on this one. The mechanics don't care whether we're Raiding Jingshen or Abyssal Bees.

    Is your position that it's always bad to use the default Raid option, because any Nascent faction can wipe out our raiders?
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    My position is that the Jingshen were weak enough to fold to raids, the Devil Bees are not. The difficulty varies based on who we target, it isn't some constant value.

    Any my position is that it's bad to use the raid option unless there's a way for us to deal with a Nascent soul deciding to show up. For the Jingshen, it was Mannuel showing up and protecting the raiders. For OC, if Mannuel goes far enough into the Devil Bees lands to protect them, that leads to him getting hit by OCs Nascents including himself.
     
    Olivebirdy said:
    A Raid does not require the selected territory be empty. We're going in, wrecking and stealing, then going out. Either it's safer to attack the heartland because the armies are all invading the South, or there's
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    So in the event that no Nascents respond to the bait, I have to ask:

    Why bribe the SPS at all?

    And doesn't that mean you just wasted Manuel's nascent action this turn on setting more traps then are already present in the area.
     
    [X] Plan For Hire

    I basically see The Blood of Silver and The Millennium Oasis Formation as essential, and this plan does purchase both.
     
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    TehChron said:
    I didn't know you were the one who made that determination.
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    Wasn't determining anything, 'twas wrong word choice and shouldn't have made definitive statements. To clarify, it could potentially be mechanically different, since it relies on external payment to pay for something out of budget, as compared to internal wealth generation. The plan's expenditures exceeds our available funds, so I'm trying to ensure that a Write-In Action is still valid for covering projected costs.

    I'm not trying to be pointlessly contrarian by nitpicking here, Chron. As can be seen, I'm still voting for your plan because it's still the best. What you perceive as "drumming up opposition" is me trying to scrutinize details to make sure everything holds up and point out possible flaws to tweak. So please chill with the passive aggressive replies.
     
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    People seem to think we can bargin down the 10 Purchase price on the Panoply for Kleisthenes. However, I don't think that is possible. Look back at the description

    occipitallobe said:
    An ancient spear and shield sit within Sorrowful Blacksmith territory, locked inside an ancient array that would take impossible power to enter. Yet with things as they are, Kleisthenes believes she can negotiate an entry for a little Nascent aid. These ancient arms are forged from Gravebronze from a Spirit Severing cultivator, and would raise Kleisthenes' strength to the very peak of Early Nascent Soul.
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    The diplomatic ability to try and enter is just for a "little Nascent aid". The actual cost is burning 10 Purchases of spirit stones to break through the ancient array, using our Bronze Blood as a key. That's not something that can be bargined down.

    This doesn't mean For Hire is a bad plan - I approve of getting as much back from the Sorrowful Blacksmiths while they are weak. But we cannot get the Panoply for cheap doing so, and anyone expecting as much will be sorely disappointed.
     
    nothingtoseehere said:
    People seem to think we can bargin down the 10 Purchase price on the Panoply for Kleisthenes. However, I don't think that is possible. Look back at the description



    The diplomatic ability to try and enter is just for a "little Nascent aid". The actual cost is burning 10 Purchases of spirit stones to break through the ancient array, using our Bronze Blood as a key. That's not something that can be bargined down.

    This doesn't mean For Hire is a bad plan - I approve of getting as much back from the Sorrowful Blacksmiths while they are weak. But we cannot get the Panoply for cheap doing so, and anyone expecting as much will be sorely disappointed.
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    This is correct. If the vote with this write-in succeeds we'll work to negotiate access, but cracking it open remains our problem.
     
    [X] Plan For Hire
    -[X] Dispatch Forces to Strength Purity in line with their request for aid. Maximum possible dispatch for as much wealth as can be feasibly paid to us in exchange.
    --[X] "It almost seems strange, to endlessly send our Legions out to war on the Plains when previously we shunned them to focus on our enemies in the desert. But yet it is not. For we have slain our foes and taken the desert for ourselves, and Strength Purity offers to pay us well, increasing out strength. For though we have slain one of our enemies...Yet still one remains. Waiting to the West for his time to strike at us in a great wave of blood. Let the Clan grow strong and disciplined at the expense of our friends in the Blood Defiance Pact."
    -[X] Manuel - Economic Activity - Carve arrays, scribe useful cultivation techniques onto scrolls, hunt down useful opportunities that might be dangerous to a Core Formation Elder. Make some money for the Clan. This earns you one purchase.
    --[X] "The desert is a hungry thing, as ever. Now most of all does that become apparent as the Clan seeks to consume it whole once and for all, digesting and making it our strength. Though the wealth of Jingshen is indeed staggering, it is not enough to feed our ambitions. So we shall find more wealth to contribute to the feast before us."
    -[X] Kleisthenes - Diplomatic Outreach (Sorrowful Blacksmiths) - They appear to have a problem with a Blood Path rebel at the level of Nascent Soul. One newly ascended to Mid Nascent, locked away in the mountains in fact. Finding things in the Turtlebone Mountain Range and killing Nascent Soul crafters, both of these are things you can do for them. For the right price.
    --[X] "A wise man once said that if you are good at something, never do it for free. Or was that a scoundrel? No matter, there remains a great number of Clan vaults hidden in the mountains beyond our casual reach. In exchange for the slaying of the fallen "Hammer Strikes Anvil Ten Thousand Times Righteously" the Sorrowful Blacksmiths are to assist our Elders with the opening of several such vaults in search of more strength to face this coming Great Era. At the very least, there is one that is most urgently necessary - the Gravebone Panoply we have on record, to better assist the Second Elder in facing her various Trials to come in this chaotic period ahead of us."
    -[X] The Underworld Devil Fortress (Major Purchase - costs 3 Purchases)
    -[X] Assault Gravity Itself (Major Purchase - costs 2 Purchases)
    -[X] Complete Control
    -[X] The Blood of Silver (20 Purchases)
    -[X] The Millennium Oasis Formation (5 Purchases)
     
    Olivebirdy said:
    She'd be delighted to see Altar Lord not hiding out by the Altar, but sure, yeah, it wouldn't be hard for AL to pop a clone and turn the fight into a 2v1 Late Nascent fight.

    That line of thought, though, would mean that Old Cannibal has free rein and can attack anywhere without any fear of a fight with the Wei Princess because Altar Lord will show up to help fight her.

    Edit: Actually, come to think of it, the idea that Altar Lord might join in makes fighting at the Sorrowful Blacksmiths an even better idea. Facesmasher could retreat to the bordering desert and turn her fight back into a 1v1.
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    Altar Lord can't hide out by the altar anymore. The altar is gone. Also, popping clones like that for the Altar Lord is apparently a brief and costly thing. Like, it lasts less than an hour or so, and it hurts, every time... and that's when he could drape himself over the altar while he was doing it.

    Let's recall here that the altar Lord has a Plan. His plan is not "Help Old Cannibal win by any means necessary". If anything...

    From what I see, as far as he's concerned, Old Cannibal is really useful as a way to soak up the attention of the Righteous Powers and the hate of the heavens... but the real win is in getting as many of the Golden Devil Kings up to Core Formation, and (hopefully) Nascent as possible, where they can maybe actually do some damage to the cause of heaven. Everything else - the entire blood path - is a splintering tool that he's hoping to use to get them limping across the finish line. He has broken the world in order to give us that much more of an opportunity to entrench and acquire power while Heaven and the Righteous Path are distracted. We should use this opportunity that we are given.

    Humbaba said:
    I mean to be honest, there is a significant difference between terrible fanfiction poetry and making naked statues. Well, naked statues that are easily identifiable.

    Damnit Yao.

    Look the point is that Glorious Face punching Princess can't do illusions or scheming, so she has to take care of things more directly than Manuel. She can't just illusion up clothes onto it.
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    I suppose, then, that "impromptu nude statuary" would be something they could bond over... if either or them were willing to admit to it.

    [X] Plan For Hire

    I'll admit it - it's a good plan. I might have a few points of disagreement on overall strategy, but the fact is that I'm not going to be able to theorycraft well enough to get better overall effects here even if I'm correct, so....
     
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