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Written by the Victors (Warhammer Fantasy)

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Aranfan said:
Did I say you were using stone to build the walls around Halomik Town?
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No, but at that point, I would point out that basic wooden fortifications could be done in a few days (towers, man sized spiked walls, and the like something that could keep a siege going for months if you have manpower parity or even just a 2:1 disadvantage), and if you wanted to get a full fort done it'd take you a few months to a few years depending on how thick you want each wall to be, and how many you want.

Mind, you undead manpower being able to work around the clock rather than ten-hour days would help speed this up especially with laxer safety regulations but let's just assume that the necromancers won't be as good at this as an actual work crew, and it all roughly balances out as a result.

Regardless, as you can see at this point even putting aside the whole watch tower thing where it shouldn't be possible for an army to reach one of our villages before they have to make camp for the night, and are therefore intercepted by our army it still stands to reason that either of our villages but especially Muckridge should be able to withstand siege for however long it takes us to arrive to relieve them.

And, they should be able to do so without casualties because I'd note that even during the era of firearms, and cannons there were sieges of forts that maintained access to the sea, and were used as tourist attractions to amuse people because so long as you weren't defending the fort you weren't in any real danger.

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Aranfan said:
Skeletons don't need to sleep. Necromancer's do.
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Vampires are necromancers who don't require sleep, and we have three.
 
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So it seems that one of the main limitations of our forces right now is simply due to a lack of necromancers. For this initial skirmish at least, our current forces seem to have been more than enough to repel them. As far trying to buy warpstone, I don't think that's the greatest idea at least before we build some merchant connections.

[X] Plan Necromancers Needed
-[X] Try to spread your viewpoint among your neighbors, the people not the elites - 1 dice
-[X] Build Necromancy School in Halomik Town - 1 dice
-[X] Create Reference Tome "Second Principles of Necromancy" - 1 dice
-[X] Train Necromancers - 1 dice
-[X] Outfit a Skeleton Legion - 1 dice
-[X] Improve Walls around Halomik Town - 1 dice
 
Fireiy said:
So it seems that one of the main limitations of our forces right now is simply due to a lack of necromancers. For this initial skirmish at least, our current forces seem to have been more than enough to repel them. As far trying to buy warpstone, I don't think that's the greatest idea at least before we build some merchant connections.

[X] Plan Necromancers Needed
-[X] Try to spread your viewpoint among your neighbors, the people not the elites - 1 dice
-[X] Build Necromancy School in Halomik Town - 1 dice
-[X] Create Reference Tome "Second Principles of Necromancy" - 1 dice
-[X] Train Necromancers - 1 dice
-[X] Outfit a Skeleton Legion - 1 dice
-[X] Improve Walls around Halomik Town - 1 dice
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I like the idea, but I worry that training necromancers while also building a necromancy school (which would reasonably require necromancers to teach in it) would have a level of negative synergy.
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
Vampires are necromancers who don't require sleep, and we have three.
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They're also the executive council, they have tons of shit to do that isn't 'supervise skeletons'.

Also please stop arguing with the QM, good god that is obnoxious.

EDIT : Also like, you're just fucking wrong. If you want the walls to last rather than be a one use palisade, even if you're building them from wood, 'a few days' won't cut it to wall in a whole village. Wood has to be sourced, wood has to be cut down, wood has to be transported, wood has to be cut into shape, wood has to be treated, pits have to be dug, adhesives and nails need to be produced, planning and survey needs to be done, and then the damn things need to be properly put into place. With a preindustrial production base all of this takes ages, skeleton beef crew or no.
 
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hghwolf said:
They're also the executive council, they have tons of shit to do that isn't 'supervise skeletons'.

Also please stop arguing with the QM, good god that is obnoxious.
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They can take a few days off to destroy the imminent threat that is an army barreling towards one of their settlements it's not even historically unsupported nobles, and monarchs used to take time out of their schedule to campaign after all, and they took more than a few days out of managing their domain directly to do so. Plus as I've been over they only have to do this if they don't feel like waiting which is also completely permissible.

Also how about no. QMs are people as well they can be talked to because they don't think of everything.

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hghwolf said:
EDIT : Also like, you're just fucking wrong. If you want the walls to last rather than be a one use palisade, even if you're building them from wood, 'a few days' won't cut it to wall in a whole village. Wood has to be sourced, wood has to be cut down, wood has to be transported, wood has to be cut into shape, wood has to be treated, pits have to be dug, adhesives and nails need to be produced, planning and survey needs to be done, and then the damn things need to be properly put into place. With a preindustrial production base all of this takes ages, skeleton beef crew or no.
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I was speaking of producing the kind of one use palisade that is literally just a trench, wooden stakes/spikes, and then a couple of days to produce basic watch towers that's why I gave out the garrison requirements as numerical parity to half as many men as the army besieging you rather than less because you need that many men to hold the walls at that point. And, at that point, once you have those kinds of fortifications, and garrison forces you're capable of holding off an attacking force for at least a few months which is where the whole civilian casualties as a result of a siege thing comes into play.

Therefore, since our guys should have better defenses even at our worst defended settlement, and because any siege would at max last a day but is not even necessary at all a scouting action is not neccessary.
 
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Two villages. The entire coalition + you would qualify as a small minor barony in the Empire or Brettonia. You are tiny, you are new at sedentary life, you are poor, you have preindustrial technology.

Undead menial labor is a huge buff, but it isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was then the Necromancers would have taken over the Empire during the Age of Three Emperors instead of... trying and failing.
 
Aranfan said:
Two villages. The entire coalition + you would qualify as a small minor barony in the Empire or Brettonia. You are tiny, you are new at sedentary life, you are poor, you have preindustrial technology.

Undead menial labor is a huge buff, but it isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was then the Necromancers would have taken over the Empire during the Age of Three Emperors instead of... trying and failing.
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I have to seriously ask at this point. What's out, and out wrong with not scouting?

Because I just don't get it these are the most basic of basic fortifications all it is, is digging a trench, and shoving sharpened bits of wood into the far side of it to form a wall the spikes don't even have to be super large, and that's all you need on top of a garrison of relative size to the enemy as the watchtowers are more to warn of the enemy approach than anything else. In these conditions, a minor barony should not have the troops to take out a forewarned army of 300 troops manning that considering a minor barony shouldn't have more than seven hundred people living in it total as that was how many people lived in an average barony let alone a small one.

And, then on top of that, I'm raising four more skeleton legions which even going with Hghwolf's more conservative estimate of 50 rather than his more generous estimate of 100 that would still give me 200 more skeletons defend the other settlement with. To even match the defenses of this second settlement in terms of numbers the coalition would need to have a ~29% enlistment rate which is including the like 100 or 200 people we most likely have between our two villages, and if we take that away their enlistment rate shoots up even higher ending up at 33% to 40%.

Like, am I insane here for thinking that's a winnable fight?
 
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Sir LagsAlot said:
I have to seriously ask at this point. What's out, and out wrong with not scouting?

Because I just don't get it these are the most basic of basic fortifications all it is, is digging a trench, and shoving sharpened bits of wood into the far side of it to form a wall the spikes don't even have to be super large, and that's all you need on top of a garrison of relative size to the enemy as the watchtowers are more to warn of the enemy approach than anything else. In these conditions, a minor barony should not have the troops to take out a forewarned army of 300 troops manning that considering a minor barony shouldn't have more than seven hundred people living in it total as that was how many people lived in an average barony let alone a small one.

And, then on top of that, I'm raising four more skeleton legions which even going with Hghwolf's more conservative estimate of 50 rather than his more generous estimate of 100 that would still give me 200 more skeletons defend the other settlement with. To even match the defenses of this second settlement in terms of numbers the coalition would need to have a ~29% enlistment rate which is including the like 100 or 200 people we most likely have between our two villages, and if we take that away their enlistment rate shoots up even higher ending up at 33% to 40%.

Like, am I insane here for thinking that's a winnable fight?
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You have several mistaken assumptions. First off, you are assuming that the coalition is fielding a levy or something. It is hiring mercenaries to wage war against you. This allows them to actually compete with your numbers, at least for a while before they have to back off and build up a warchest again. Finally, you are dealing with a very small area, which means the enemy can move fast. The watchtower helps, and gives you a chance of forewarning, but active scouting makes sure you know where the enemy troops are and that they can't outmaneuver you on the field.

It is true that it is winnable, but just because a fight is winnable doesn't mean you want to have it. Do you think the populace of your villages will like being sieged for a while? If your skeleton plantations, which are outside the defenses because the farms have to be, get burned then that's a lot of food you are out.

You are very strong in a direct confrontation, given where you are. But that isn't the same as invincible.
 
Shit right, votes...

[X] Plan Our Dark Army

I'd prefer a building rather than agitprop but this is close enough to what I'd do anyway that I'm fine with it.
 
You know all this talk of scouting has revealed something interesting about us. We do not need population for the same reason as everyone else. Our military power is not a function of people with weapons hitting things, it is a function of wizards, the more people we have the more of the gifted we find, the more armies of the dead we can field. That does make for rather good potential for growth, but it also makes for odd internal power dynamics. I mean sure we have an assembly to write the laws and vote on them and we will have arbitrators to enforce them, but really most of the power of the state comes from the loyalty of the necromancers and vampires and that is not going to change going forward. If they decide as a group that this republic thing is silly and would like a mageocracy now who is there to stop them?
 
[X] Plan Our Dark Army

DragonParadox said:
You know all this talk of scouting has revealed something interesting about us. We do not need population for the same reason as everyone else. Our military power is not a function of people with weapons hitting things, it is a function of wizards, the more people we have the more of the gifted we find, the more armies of the dead we can field. That does make for rather good potential for growth, but it also makes for odd internal power dynamics. I mean sure we have an assembly to write the laws and vote on them and we will have arbitrators to enforce them, but really most of the power of the state comes from the loyalty of the necromancers and vampires and that is not going to change going forward. If they decide as a group that this republic thing is silly and would like a mageocracy now who is there to stop them?
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That is a big issue. Currently its enforced by the beliefs of the strongest vampires. It should be noted that Necromancers are no more resistant to assaination then normal humans and vampire are only slightly tougher when it comes to having a stake driven through their heart while sleeping. In the future it would probably be worth having a rival power block or two that could stop a magocracy that also wouldn't try to place themselves at the top of the hierarchy. We have time to figure that out though.
 
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That is a big issue. Currently its enforced by the beliefs of the strongest vampires. It should be noted that Necromancers are no more resistant to assaination then normal humans and vampire are only slightly tougher when it comes to having a stake driven through their heart while sleeping. In the future it would probably be worth having a rival power block or two that could stop a magocracy that also wouldn't try to place themselves at the top of the hierarchy. We have time to figure that out though.
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I'd say guilds, but those are usually bad for industry power. I don't think dividing the mages into groups is ideal, since it'd make hoarding innovations a thing.
Maybe have vampire houses ennobled and appointed (temporaly) for village/city/etc?? The meritocracy part should make it so innovativeness and efficiency be pretty important, and vampires like elves have lots of time to build Experience.
I'm against the Church having any power(in state ruling) tough, since its imo a bad idea.
Another easy counterblock would be the military, but I have no idea how necromancy would impact it.
So we remains with a mercantile/s faction/s, pretty much the people who benefit from more trade, and the mages/vampires.
This is pretty complicate and I have no idea how to do shit.
 
Lupercal said:
[X] Plan Our Dark Army



That is a big issue. Currently its enforced by the beliefs of the strongest vampires. It should be noted that Necromancers are no more resistant to assaination then normal humans and vampire are only slightly tougher when it comes to having a stake driven through their heart while sleeping. In the future it would probably be worth having a rival power block or two that could stop a magocracy that also wouldn't try to place themselves at the top of the hierarchy. We have time to figure that out though.
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Whatever we do it cannot be too obvious with the death threats, because the mindset of necromancy is fear of death. Granted that is necessary in small doses, but if they go overboard that is how you get big N with the iron bones. We need some kind of soft power block.

asonia said:
I'd say guilds, but those are usually bad for industry power. I don't think dividing the mages into groups is ideal, since it'd make hoarding innovations a thing.
Maybe have vampire houses ennobled and appointed (temporaly) for village/city/etc?? The meritocracy part should make it so innovativeness and efficiency be pretty important, and vampires like elves have lots of time to build Experience.
I'm against the Church having any power(in state ruling) tough, since its imo a bad idea.
Another easy counterblock would be the military, but I have no idea how necromancy would impact it.
So we remains with a mercantile/s faction/s, pretty much the people who benefit from more trade, and the mages/vampires.
This is pretty complicate and I have no idea how to do shit.
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  1. Our army is made up of the dead which are controlled by necromancers. There is no way a living army could compare to the lethality of that. Also even if we wanted to field it people would rightly wonder what the hell we are risking their lives when you can send a pile of bones in their place.
  2. We cannot really have a church, unless you want a Lahmia style blood cult because if there is one thing Sigmar agrees with Khorne and the Lady with Tzeench, it is that vampires are the worst, so no god will have us anyway
  3. Just breaking them up by region is IMO unlikely to work because they would have no reason to have greater fealty to the region than with each other
  4. As for the merchants, well there is nothing currently keeping the necromancers from getting into trade
 
Wwind said:
feels like quest is underselling the fear people would feel towards undead/necromancers.
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Which people? The ones we started from are the descendants of a people who were ruled by vampires for centuries and which were still ruled by vampires on the road. Vampires are our honored elders. As for the people of Muckbridge... well they are in the Border Princes, this is where the mad the desperate and the heretics go. It's not like there is some sort secret that the greenskins will kill you sooner rather than later. There are places out here that openly worship chaos, and yes there are canonically Strogoi who set themselves up as lords.
 
DragonParadox said:
  1. We cannot really have a church, unless you want a Lahmia style blood cult because if there is one thing Sigmar agrees with Khorne and the Lady with Tzeench, it is that vampires are the worst, so no god will have us anyway
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I think we can form a strong religious block between the Shallyans we have already invited and some of the other gods like Taal and Rhya or Ranald. We aren't trying to make a kingdom of the dead or mess with souls remember. We are using skeletons are essentially labour saving machines. Getting the blessings of the agriculture goddess and the hunting god should be doable.

The only gods who are explicitly anti-undead in their doctrine are Sigmar, Myrmidia and Morr. Those first two are because of historical undead invations as well. Even then Morr is the only god who seems to never be okay with undead no matter what, Sigmar has given his blessing to undead before and Chaos doesn't like *vampires* but is fine with necromancers (see Heinrich Kremmler).

We might be able to bring Morr around eventually as well since his mean issue is with people messing with souls which we explicitly avoid. On the other hand we might not want to make nice with Morr since our Necromancy gives us the potential to form a different and more transactional relationship with our dead.
 
Lupercal said:
I think we can form a strong religious block between the Shallyans we have already invited and some of the other gods like Taal and Rhya or Ranald. We aren't trying to make a kingdom of the dead or mess with souls remember. We are using skeletons are essentially labour saving machines. Getting the blessings of the agriculture goddess and the hunting god should be doable.

The only gods who are explicitly anti-undead in their doctrine are Sigmar, Myrmidia and Morr. Those first two are because of historical undead invations as well. Even then Morr is the only god who seems to never be okay with undead no matter what, Sigmar has given his blessing to undead before and Chaos doesn't like *vampires* but is fine with necromancers (see Heinrich Kremmler).

We might be able to bring Morr around eventually as well since his mean issue is with people messing with souls which we explicitly avoid. On the other hand we might not want to make nice with Morr since our Necromancy gives us the potential to form a different and more transactional relationship with our dead.
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The thing is we are messing with souls, meet the vampires, eternally blessed and cursed to linger in the world beyond the will of the gods and at least according to Tome of Corruption Chaos really hates vampires because they are a denial of everything it is. They are unchanging and eternal, they are resistant to mutation and they wield Dhar the stuff of chaos itself without being consumed by it.

A vampire is the ultimate heresy to all gods, a once-mortal soul that is answerable to none but itself. Gods like broadly speaking are likely to see that the same way a Bretonian noble would see... well peasants governing themselves, except where Bretonian nobles must by necessity grasp that they cannot actually conquer every republic on the map gods are generally speaking a lot less limited.

What makes Shallya different is that Mercy is her domain, it defines her, be it by choice or by literally being made it it (depending on which theory of the divine you ascribe to)
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is we are messing with souls, meet the vampires, eternally blessed and cursed to linger in the world beyond the will of the gods and at least according to Tome of Corruption Chaos really hates vampires because they are a denial of everything it is. They are unchanging and eternal, they are resistant to mutation and they wield Dhar the stuff of chaos itself without being consumed by it.

A vampire is the ultimate heresy to all gods, a once-mortal soul that is answerable to none but itself. Gods like broadly speaking are likely to see that the same way a Bretonian noble would see... well peasants governing themselves, except where Bretonian nobles must by necessity grasp that they cannot actually conquer every republic on the map gods are generally speaking a lot less limited.

What makes Shallya different is that Mercy is her domain, it defines her, be it by choice or by literally being made it it (depending on which theory of the divine you ascribe to)
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and we have a total of 3 vampires in the entire republic. We are much more a necromancer faction then a vampire one even before we factor in any growth we have planned.
 
Lupercal said:
and we have a total of 3 vampires in the entire republic. We are much more a necromancer faction then a vampire one even before we factor in any growth we have planned.
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I do not think gods or their faithful are minded to play numers games here. When you have in your leadership a walking talking affront to everything the gods represent they are unlikely to round down to zero as it were.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not think gods or their faithful are minded to play numers games here. When you have in your leadership a walking talking affront to everything the gods represent they are unlikely to round down to zero as it were.
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I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the nature of the gods then. I don't see most of them as being as authoriterian as you do. Outside of ones like the Chaos gods or that have specific beefs with necromancy and the undead I don't think most will care too much if a soul is outside of their power.
 
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Lupercal said:
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the nature of the gods then. I don't see most of them as being as authoriterian as you do. Outside of ones like the Chaos gods or that have specific beefs with necromancy and the undead I don't think most will care too much if a soul is outside of their power if.
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We will have to see yes, for what it's worth I do hope you are right. Being able to have temples of he local gods would make things a lot easier on a lot of fronts
 
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