We could debate classification forever, because genres aren't strictly defined and traits cross over between them. 2001: A Space Odyssey is presented as an epic in terms of how it's framed and filmed, but the story satisfies many of the defining characteristics of space opera -- it's set primarily in outer space, it focuses on a risky adventure, it ties into an ancient interstellar civilization... A good tool for analysis shouldn't stop being relevant when a work stretches the boundaries of a particular genre.

But fine. Let's look at Asimov's "Robbie" (the first section of I, Robot) for an example.

* The story is entirely devoid of anything supernatural, so Pure Archer is right out.
* The Scarlet Swordsman could be argued -- with an extreme stretch -- to make an appearance, in that the climax of the conflict occurs when a little girl bypasses the normal policies without regard for why the greater world around her is set up the way it is. But that's all the deeper it goes; there's no injustice or jealousy, just naivety.
* The Mourning Judge would again require an extreme stretch. The Talking Robot inadvertently self-destructs when trying to process a fact that it had no framework for understanding, but that doesn't have anything to do with following a false leader or pushing one's own ideas despite reality.
* The story doesn't involve life and death or passion, so Khloros Cowl isn't relevant.
* Morality isn't a major theme of "Robbie" (though it does appear elsewhere in I, Robot) so the Golden Maceman doesn't apply.

However, "I, Robot" does include another theme that's very common in space opera that isn't represented in these archetypes: the character that explores the boundaries not between life and death but between consciousness and unconsciousness -- when does an AI become a person? when does a human stop being a person? how can you tell if an alien lifeform is a person? -- and how they relate to the rest of the world. This is so important to character relationships in space operas that its omission is pretty glaring.

Robbie is a Golden Maceman story. It rejects the objective human/sapient cruelty that goes into making sapients for the purpose of having work done (in other words creating slaves) and replaces it with a subjective perspective of a rich family. In fact Asimov's entire Robots and Foundation series are examples of how a really bright mind can miss the point of critical thinking and solid morality.
 
So if I may weigh in on this here, I'd say that a definite point of import is that these works are what you define them as in your opinion based on an analysis that no one else in this thread has internalised or has any real cultural baseline for.

I don't think it's unfair to state that we respect your basis of opinion, but applying it to works and expecting us to understand the context even when you try to explain stretches the bounds of credibility. The problem here is that your definitions are just that: yours. There's no shared baseline, and your understanding and context slips away when others try to make sense of the framework. What to you might be something simply defined as a particular example won't be that to someone else - and neither party is wrong in this case.

Perhaps more crucially, I'm unsure the definitions you're using even apply. You've said that these are meta-analysis terms for works of space opera. I'm not entirely sure that Practice War or Secrets' Crusade classify as that, although I have you at a disadvantage here given my authorial knowledge.

To address authorial matters a moment, though: update progress is taking its time due to my major focus still being placed on irl things. I haven't actually touched this world in most of a month now, though I hope to alter that soon.
 
Fair enough. Sitting down on this one. Will explain it with better context and a different shared baseline if there is a next time in this thread.
 
In Memory's Halls
[X] Experience

Where could you begin? The answer to that question had seemed simple enough during your descent, a solid consensus built on your experiences in the tomb of the Zlathbu. And you'd been prepared for different options. You just weren't sure if there could have been any option so poisonously tempting as what your guide had just offered.

:But is it the right choice?: Vega considered, ahead of your Heartcircle's internal debate curve by the simple merit of being the primary node for its communication.

:Can we afford not to take it?: Mir asked in reply. :We know what happened here at the end,: a shudder swept through you as you shied away from that memory, :but nothing of how it started. Witnessing that history would be one thing, and it's what we agreed on before coming down here if the options were the same. But if we can experience those actions, don't we owe that opportunity due consideration?:

His words cut to the heart of the matter. The truth of this place's ending might not be fully known even to the Shiplords - the fact that an Uninvolved had involved itself so completely implied that the Shiplords had not been capable of stopping the Sphere from completing their horrific creation. But as horrible as that had been, Mir was right. That was just the end, and you were here to try and find another way out of this war.

:This conflict is far, far older than the Zlathbu.: You agreed. :And according to what we found in their home system, the War of the Sphere caused many of the changes that we've suffered for.: It was painfully obvious that that conflict was the source of the ban on use of the Second Secret, assuming one hadn't already existed.

:And we were sent to understand why. No matter how abhorrent their actions, we need to understand why they think it's justified.: Kalilah heaved a bitter mental sigh. :But do we want to do this now?:

:Will it truly help to wait?:
Lea asked, still in the second between one breath and the next. :We know that this option exists now. We know we will take it. You have accepted its costs, regardless of what they might be.: Not so hidden within that statement was the frustration of a concerned physician, one you knew well from the other side. Still not good at accepting it. :So why are we waiting?:

:She's right.:
Vega pulsed agreement through the words, translating through all the fears she knew you felt, yet the resolution behind it too. :The heart does what the heart wants. That's as it should be, and we've fought for that ideal. No matter how bitter it is now, we know that truth.:

Something in that statement rocked against the patchworked pain that had taken root so deep inside your soul. And for a moment, you let it and your friends guide you. You needed to see everything else to make sense of the end.

"Experience." You said to Kicha, the Shiplord who had greeted you. They swept their gaze over you all for a few moments, long enough to make you fear that your Masques had failed. Then they motioned in assent, and turned towards the closest of the smaller buildings that ringed the towers.

"Come, then. This way."

Kicha led you into the compound, and then directly to the closest building, down a walkway so well used that the composites had actually been worn away by countless footsteps. How many billions must it have taken to do that, you wondered. Groups of Shiplords passed back and forth along the wide path, some larger, but few smaller than your own, and each led by a member of the Hearthguard. A section of wall irised open as you approached it, revealing what a human would call an atrium, built wide to connect the dozens of corridors that branched off of it throughout the structure.

:Look.: Vega said. The word brought a direction with it, and you turned your head to watch a small party of Shiplords jump from the ground floor all the way to the top level of the building. Sensors examined it, identifying the use of Sixth Secret emitters, but that wasn't the interesting thing.

:No stairs.: You agreed, glancing around to confirm it. :No links at all between the levels, and none of the platforms that we saw used on the last world.:

:Maybe they aren't needed for internal spaces,:
Mir suggested. :Though there must be some sort of safety in case their suit systems fail?:

:Their suits can take high-intensity energy fire, Mir.:
Kalilah pointed out wryly. :Do you think they'd worry about something so trivial?:

:We would.:
Vega sent, as your guide directed you towards one of the ground level corridors. :But humanity is still acclimatising to Secrets-based technology being widely available. The Shiplords have lived with their abundance for millions of years. We were seeing the beginnings of cultural change in response before the Third Battle of Sol, but nothing close to this.:

:Not yet, at least:
You added quietly.

"Here." Kicha came to a stop, a gesture from the Shiplord opening the wall to reveal a surprisingly plain room.

:Wait.: Kagiso, Vega's Unison, spoke. And dozens of points across the walls of the room flared with light. :Look there. Hologram emitters, or something like them.:

:So it is a simulation.:
Kalilah said. You'd all guessed what this choice might mean, but this still didn't answer everything. A simulation, yes, that had been the most likely. But of what?

"To you I grant this space," Kicha hadn't stopped talking. "To experience the truth of this horrific war, and the hopes of all Hearthguard, that you might find another way for it to have ended."

Those words. They were so similar, and for a moment you found yourself far away, standing wreathed in power within the void of space, holding one of your dearest comrades in your arms. Spitting fiery words at the savaged elements of a Regular Fleet, withdrawing from Sol.

"If you believe you can find a better way, then please, find it swiftly."

That had been the message they'd left you with. The message that had, in many ways, made you willing to believe what the Uninvolved had told you. And here, perhaps, you had found the source of it.

"We shall try." You said, following your instincts in the words, and then again in the movement of a short bow. "All of us. To seek a better way."

For a moment your host froze again, so briefly that you almost missed it, before the feeling of a smile born of ageless anguish spread across their form.

"Go then." The Shiplord said tenderly, almost like the words were fragile. "Seek what none before you could find."

That was the end of that conversation, you all felt it. So you did as you were bid, all striding into the room, moving together. You felt something there, through the veil of pain that still fought you. The vitality and energy of combat, but not as you'd known it most recently. This was a battle, one that no Shiplord had ever won.

Could you?

The emitters all around you flared to life as you thought that question, and the world changed. A bare room slipped away, and a bridge appeared around you, filled with forms like your own. Shiplords, but there was something odd about the technology around you. It felt old, somehow, less elegant. A million years gives much time to perfect designs.

"The Deepscan Array was right, Captain." A Shiplord from the simulation reported, their attention clearly turned to you. It was an odd bridge, compared to human models. Those had a firm hierarchy to them, flowing out from the centre. Shiplord design shared the latter, but it focused all bridge crew around a central control column, allowing every member of the crew to see each other easily.

An image flashed up at the centre of that column, a star system that you recognised from your entrance through the shield around this star system, but there were so many differences. Ships flooded across the space between the two primary worlds, streaming through a cornucopia of orbitals and platforms like some enormous, multi-limbed beast of shifting lights.

"Two fully habitable worlds," another Shiplord said, so clearly excited by what they could see. "Massive orbital use. And look, here." The image focused on the system's star, where enormous gantries had been constructed. "They're building a convertor!"

Had you all been shoved into your own simulations, you wondered. Wait, you corrected yourself. There, on another panel, you saw Vega. Kalilah, quietly absorbing her own. How had they chosen to place all of you? And why were you in a position of command? Because you'd given voice to the decision you'd all made?

:You can pause, if you wish.: Sidra said, the Unison almost absentminded in their reply. You could feel why. Data poured from the simulation, into your Masque, and then into you. So much data. This wasn't the only simulation, there were others. From shipboard actions like this, what had to be Shiplord first contact with the Sphere, to massive strategic simulations. The later stages of the war?

And there, there! There was the Shiplord perspective of the end. Quasi-tactical, by the header. A command simulation? And this simulation directly interacted with the Masques, allowing for full use of your accelerated perceptions. You had time to experience it all, to plumb the depths of a war that had defined Shiplord society. But time enough to see it all, did not mean time enough to know it. Even your accelerated perceptions weren't up to the task of absorbing more than a millennia of war. Sidra was already copying as quickly as they could, spreading the information across your Heartcircle's storage for the analysts back on the Adamant.

But what did you do with it now? The simulation was still moving around you, reports flowing in from the memories or recordings of Shiplords long since dead. Was it truly giving you a chance to try to change things? To find a different path through the events that led up to a war whose remembered end had scarred you so deeply. Moments later, you had your answer.

:There's something around the simulations, linking them all together,: Sidra said, a deep awe flooding across your link. :It feels almost like Vision, but so much more.:

:And so much less.:
Vega said, her sadness a physical force. :It's all her power, and none of her will.:

:Would you want a creation like this to have a will?:
Lea asked. She drew your attention back to the simulations, to the links between them, and more. :This is their attempt to find a solution on their own. A solution that a perfect analyst couldn't think up.:

:It raises some other questions, though.:
Kalilah said, taking those implications squarely by the horns. :If they can create simulations like this, why don't they use them to keep younger races in line? Even if they need incredibly precise models, initial Tribute Fleet contact could give them that. They leave control mechanisms behind, but their subnet was so much less than this.:

:It has to be something cultural.:
You answered immediately. :We know the Tribute Fleets hold a place of near-reverence within their culture; this could be related. It's hypocrisy at a truly awesome scale, of course, but that's nothing new. There is a difference between predictive modelling and their chosen forms of control, of course, but either is oppression on a scale where comparisons lose meaning.:

:So what are we meant to do with this, then?:
Mir asked. :We came here to learn, and we expected a simulation. Our Unisons can read the simulation headers, too, so we can focus on specific points if we want to. But how much do we want to?:

:I'm not sure.:
Vega said cautiously. :There's so much here that we don't fully understand, that we can't fully understand without experiencing it all first. And what would we even call a victory here? We know how this war ended, what the Sphere was trying to create and the horrors they were willing to commit to do so. But did they start from that place, or did the Shiplords make them become that? Surely that has to be our first question.:

:Then we're in the right place, aren't we?:

:Maybe.:
Sidra being hesitant was unusual, but you couldn't deny that it made sense here. :There's one other simulation that happens close to this one chronologically, and there's a huge amount of connection between them. Whatever we do here will affect how it plays, but I don't think we can discover the truth of things properly without running through initial contact.:

:And there's another question there.:
Kalilah passed a data segment from the simulation around you into the Unison network. :Because this isn't a Tribute craft. It's much more like what the G6 polities sent to find us, just much more advanced. The simulation IDs it as the lead ship of a Contact Fleet detachment.:

You glanced across the central display, then to the scattering of pale dots hovering at the edge of the star system. Glyphs surrounded them as your attention shifted there, designations flowing into your HUD to provide you with details on capabilities and specific designations. And not just designations, these ships had names, too. When had the Shiplords stopped doing that?

:Where do we put our focus, then?: You said, pulling your focus back from that aspect of the current simulation. :Even with full perceptual acceleration, there's a limit to how much we can do here without drawing attention to ourselves. And we have to get a grasp of the wider war, too. We don't know nearly enough to make informed decisions right now:

:I think we can solve most of that using the higher level simulations.:
Sidra said. :I can read the headers, and there's more data on them if I dig. There are several strategic scale sims that modify the historic model depending on user input. I can use the standard settings to optimise our pathway to historic normal, let us ground ourselves with the knowledge that we already should have.:

You flashed the look of a question across the shared link.

:I don't see a better option.: Kalilah.

:Nor I.: Lea.

:Seems the best option we have.: Mir and Vega spoke together.

:Then let us begin.:

Time slowed, and the world around you blurred.

From a beginning of curiosity came concern, then suspicion, to be followed by horror as the full truth of the facade was revealed. A desperate escape, from the creations of brilliant minds seeking to chain anything that would stand against how they saw reality, a slavery as subtle as it was obscene. A slavery you had seen variants of - how had they rationalised the use of such things in your present?

Then came war. A war that shook the pillars of the galaxy, with all the horrors that you knew the one your actions had largely begun would bring. Worlds broke and stars burned, scorching entire systems in their death throes. Overstep and counterstroke, back and forth it went as the Shiplords fought to create something that could properly defend their worlds from the hordes at the gates. Their War Fleets had always been unstoppable, and that remained the case, but their territory had grown too large to defend against a conventional assault, and the Sphere was relentless in their growth. And the Hjivin had War Fleets of their own, besides.

World after world lost, to an enemy that held more resemblance to a plague than a sentient species. Many of them surrendered with much of their population, to fates that curdled your blood when you discovered them later. But that later did come, through new ships and fleets forged to combat Hjivin tactics, and their shared mastery of the First Secret. Then, as the war turned, the ending you had seen came to pass. What you had seen within one star system played out across scores more, the death of a species executed in the space of moments.

And from that ending came a great fear, cloaked in history that you did not recognise. Scars millions of years old then fuelled it, and was it truly so irrational? The Uninvolved that had finally acted to bring an end to the conflict had wiped away a race with all the apparent effort of swatting a fly. Who-

And then you were back where you'd begun. The simulation, the first simulation you knew now, enveloped you again. A tremulous gesture brought up the imagery you'd had in front of you a subject eternity ago, and you stared at it, finding it hard not to shake.

The point of this place, you understood now, was to try and find a different solution. To find a way for the war as it had been to be averted. Could you do that here? This simulation was part of a package under the Contact header, but was there anything you could think to try with what you now knew about the Sphere? Could humanity have survived meeting them?

:Depends on the humanity.: Kalilah's voice was steady despite the experience you'd all just shared. :I don't think they'd have had any luck against anyone like you, Mandy. Or Vega. But a pre-Sorrows humanity? We'd have just been another notch.:

:Which means it might not be about stopping the war at all.:
Vega suggested, and you could feel her mind leaping down the chains of possibility her Focus opened to her. But this was a matter of ending war, which made another of your Heartcircle far more capable.

:I don't think it is.: Mir agreed. :It's about finding a better way to peace. And I'm not sure if I could find one in this moment. We know what the Hjivin are now,: a wave of nausea surged across the link as you all remembered what you'd seen. :We know what they want, and how they...just don't seem to care what it costs.:

:What if the Shiplords understood what they were facing from the beginning?:
Lea asked, eyes shadowed behind the veil of her Masque. :That it was deliberate, all of it.:

:I'm not sure it helps.:
You replied heavily. :The Shiplords had to create the Regulars to win this war. Maybe they could have started building them sooner, but design and construction times were never a problem for them. Their bottleneck was moving all those ships into place in time. I don't think any amount of early warning could have saved their colony worlds on this side of the core.:

:So...what then?:
Lea demanded, and you could feel the frustration burning in her voice. :There can't be nothing.:

:Maybe not here.:
Mir said gently, one hand lifting to manipulate the simulation control. :But I was watching with more than my eyes as we went through these simulations, and my Focus latched on to two points more than the rest. The first is the simulation point right after this one.:

:That one?:
You forced yourself not to shiver. Mir nodded.

:Yes.:

Unhappy agreement flashed across the Heartcircle at the confirmation, and you grimaced. You trusted Mir, you just truly did not want to experience that simulation unless you had to. But, you reminded yourself, that was why you'd come here. And this was Mir's Focus to a tee.

:Sidra, could you set historical defaults for the current simulation and move us to the next one?:

The sim was already shifting as you formed the request, the close command space fading into a more spaced environment. Something like the ready room on the Adamant, you thought. And there you all were, sat around it, the nanoshells of the projected Shiplords reflecting deep concern.

It was about three human months after first contact with the Sphere, and the first true strands of suspicion were beginning to take root among the various Contact Fleet crews. The Sphere looked remarkably good on paper, a Second Secret primary polity that was capable of massive industrial output and appeared entirely open to diplomatic overtures. But there were rats in the walls, or something like them, and none of the detachment's Captains had quite been able to ignore them. So they'd gone digging, as was sometimes Contact's remit.

"All of the groupwide analysis point to the same thing." The posture of the detachment's intelligence lead was deeply withdrawn, a protectivity bordering on something very close to fear. "The Hjivin are hiding something, something integral to how their culture functions. I don't think anyone without Contact's experience with this could have found it, and we had to go looking. It wasn't obvious in the least. I know there have been disagreements in command channels about possible reasons, but I can say this with total certainty. This is not a mark of cultural shame, it's something still active in their current societal matrix. And they did not want us to find it."

"So where do we go from here?" One of the captains, not one of your group, asked. "Command has been asking for a formal recommendation for weeks now. And with respect, Rhyn, something that their culture didn't want us to find doesn't provide satisfactory reasoning to deny their current requests."

"But it does give us leave to investigate further." Rhyn replied sharply. "If the detachment commander wishes us to do so." And with that, attention swung towards you.

You knew that in true history, the Shiplord whose form you were currently wearing had chosen to undertake a limited covert probe into the nature of what the Sphere was hiding. It had succeeded, but not without consequence, and the whole point of this was to try something different. And you knew, as everyone who had likely ever entered this room, what the Hjivin truly had to hide.

So what would you do?

[] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?
[] Turn the full strength of the Contact Fleet's expertise to investigating the rotten truth beneath the Sphere's skin. They are close to matching the Shiplords of this time, but only that.
[] The Hjivin emissaries will not give you the answers you seek. But might their staff, or the servants below them? Dangerous to act right under the nose of a near-peer, but it just might work.
[] Write-in

A Note: Having experienced a flash of the entire known history from Shiplord perspective loaded into the simulation chamber, Amanda and the rest now have far more data on what is waiting for them behind these options. Given this and the combination of Sidra and the other Unison Intelligences rapidly copying all the data they can, your access to knowledge is now much higher. I am obfuscating in the narration here for effect, but if you have questions, I will answer as fully within the limits of the extensive sim data you now have access to. If people feel an Informational post on the war would be a benefit I will produce one, just let me know.
 
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Many thanks go to @Baughn and @Coda for betaing this for me, and for all the help they and @Queen Kit have given in shaping it into something where the vote wasn't just "What do you want to see next" with no real player influence on what happened. There's been some conversation on this matter in my technical channel, dealing with how a lot of SC hasn't been very quest-like. This section, and those that should follow it, are my first attempts to try and reverse that trend. I'll leave this vote open until Thursday or Friday - I'll shove an automatic vote-close into place this afternoon with the exact time - and work on the next update the next day. As I've said in the PW discord, getting away to see some friends has done wonders for my mental wellbeing, and that's had a knock-on effect on my ability to write and (I hope) write well.
 
[X] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?

Is it even possible to solve this situation?
 
Is it even possible to solve this situation?
See what Mir and Vega had to say on this. These sims don't appear to be about stopping the war from happening. They appear to be about trying to stop the war from costing so much - and preventing the actions of the Uninvolved in ending it from reopening an ancient cultural wound in the Shiplord psyche.

So....maybe? Amanda and co are pretty sure that they'll get an aggressive response if they try to talk, but at the same time Amanda is skating on the edge of glorious Solar bullshit where it comes to diplomacy. There's a reason it made it into the options.
 
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[] Turn the full strength of the Contact Fleet's expertise to investigating the rotten truth beneath the Sphere's skin. They are close to matching the Shiplords of this time, but only that.
[] The Hjivin emissaries will not give you the answers you seek. But might their staff, or the servants below them? Dangerous to act right under the nose of a near-peer, but it just might work.


I feel like the Shiplords would have tried these routes before. So I'm most inclined to follow the first branch.

[X] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?

Also just asking feels like what Amanda would do.
 
Seeing that informational post sounds very good.

:Look.: Vega said. The word brought a direction with it, and you turned your head to watch a small party of Shiplords jump from the ground floor all the way to the top level of the building. Sensors examined it, identifying the use of Sixth Secret emitters, but that wasn't the interesting thing.

:No stairs.: You agreed, glancing around to confirm it. :No links at all between the levels, and none of the platforms that we saw used on the last world.:

:Maybe they aren't needed for internal spaces,:
Mir suggested. :Though there must be some sort of safety in case their suit systems fail?:

:Their suits can take high-intensity energy fire, Mir.:
Kalilah pointed out wryly. :Do you think they'd worry about something so trivial?:

:We would.:
Vega sent, as your guide directed you towards one of the ground level corridors. :But humanity is still acclimatising to Secrets-based technology being widely available. The Shiplords have lived with their abundance for millions of years. We were seeing the beginnings of cultural change in response before the Third Battle of Sol, but nothing close to this.:
Yeah, from their point of view I guess the Sixth Secret tech is about as well-understood and reliable as a plank.

When we build a wooden flight of stairs, we don't rig complex nets underneath it in case of termites weakening it to the point of collapse. We don't include a rope alongside the stairs that you could shimmy up or down in an emergency. Any secondary technologies we build into the infrastructure are there for people who for whatever reason cannot use stairs, not because stairs are unreliable and we might need a backup.

Because humanity, collectively, effectively knows everything there is to know about building stairs out of wood. Including enough knowledge that we are confident we can prepare against failure modes, detect them, and respond appropriately without need for an installed backup.

From a beginning of curiosity came concern, then suspicion, to be followed by horror as the full truth of the facade was revealed. A desperate escape, from the creations of brilliant minds seeking to chain anything that would stand against how they saw reality, a slavery as subtle as it was obscene. A slavery you had seen variants of - how had they rationalised the use of such things in your present?
@Snowfire , just to be clear because it's a big quest and I read a lot of it quite a while ago...

What, precisely, are the "such things" that the Shiplords are doing, that remind Amanda of what she's seeing here?
 
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[] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?
[] Turn the full strength of the Contact Fleet's expertise to investigating the rotten truth beneath the Sphere's skin. They are close to matching the Shiplords of this time, but only that.
[] The Hjivin emissaries will not give you the answers you seek. But might their staff, or the servants below them? Dangerous to act right under the nose of a near-peer, but it just might work.
If the Uninvolved POV is to be believed the Shiplords were known as old mentors once, who taught others.

And I think I want to see the point of view their culture as teacher would make of the near-peer's own students. I think this might be the option they have tried.

[X] The Hjivin emissaries will not give you the answers you seek. But might their staff, or the servants below them? Dangerous to act right under the nose of a near-peer, but it just might work.

That said. @Snowfire can we later on try and see what the other options will result in?
 
@Snowfire , just to be clear because it's a big quest and I read a lot of it quite a while ago...

What, precisely, are the "such things" that the Shiplords are doing, that remind Amanda of what she's seeing here?
The infiltration nanotech that the Shiplords use to manipulate and control post-Tributary civilisations. First shown in this interlude and encountered by humanity in this segment of Second Contact.
That said. @Snowfire can we later on try and see what the other options will result in?
You will certainly be able to get detail of what the other options produce, if not direct narrative interaction with it as you will here.
 
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See what Mir and Vega had to say on this. These sims don't appear to be about stopping the war from happening. They appear to be about trying to stop the war from costing so much - and preventing the actions of the Uninvolved in ending it from reopening an ancient cultural wound in the Shiplord psyche.
Are the Shiplords even aware of the attempted ascension that set off the Uninvolved?

I do have one idea that is pretty dependent on how much the Shiplords know about that perspective: get the key information as quickly as possible and then try to get the attention of the Uninvolved early. Give them more time to react instead of needing to slam home an attack at the last second.
 
On advisement from Snowfire, copying the following from the Discord:

Hm. Do they run their people through these simulations still? Or has it just hit the point where only the extremely dedicated show up every once in a while to give it a shot, just to try to double check. I can see it's very culturally familiar though - to that Shiplord, it must have been like seeing a cat ask for a cheeseburger unprompted - except instead of silly internet memes, its made of cultural trauma.

The infiltration nanotech that the Shiplords use to manipulate and control post-Tributary civilisations. First shown in this interlude and encountered by humanity in this segment of Second Contact.

They've become something they once would have hated, in order to never face this sort of thing again. It's hard to imagine they can't see it, but I wonder how their cultural acceptance of this specific brand of nonsense is, versus their cultural acceptance of the tributary fleets.

Ultimately, though, I really feel they've missed the point. If all they're doing is aimed to prevent these kinds of disasters, then they failed at step one when they became that kind of disaster. They've failed structurally and definitionally. And if they know that, and are doing it anyway, that's not some kind of noble sacrifice or necessary evil. They've just moved onto traumatizing everyone, forever, until the end of time, because at least then they've got an illusion of certainty that ONLY the Shiplord(TM) brand of interstellar war crimes are allowed to exist anymore.
 
Are the Shiplords even aware of the attempted ascension that set off the Uninvolved?

I do have one idea that is pretty dependent on how much the Shiplords know about that perspective: get the key information as quickly as possible and then try to get the attention of the Uninvolved early. Give them more time to react instead of needing to slam home an attack at the last second.
Hm. Yeah.

And if we're shopping for answers that the Shiplords would literally never think of, even after billions of iterations of individual Shiplords trying... Well, that's a tough task, though probably easier than it would be with an equivalent number of humans because I suspect the Shiplords assert and establish more conformity in their society than we do.

But if you're trying to find such a solution, then taking this immediately to the Uninvolved? That's... very much something the Shiplords might never think of.

The Shiplords of that time wouldn't think of it because they view the Uninvolved as the happy 'off there somewhere' descendants of their 'children,' the species the 'shepherded' into ascent.

The Shiplords of this time wouldn't think of it because they view the rest of the galaxy with the eyes of a cruel and paranoid garrison state, and so the idea of so quickly abdicating control of something that important to anyone but the Shiplords would be unthinkable.

They've become something they once would have hated, in order to never face this sort of thing again. It's hard to imagine they can't see it, but I wonder how their cultural acceptance of this specific brand of nonsense is, versus their cultural acceptance of the tributary fleets.

Ultimately, though, I really feel they've missed the point. If all they're doing is aimed to prevent these kinds of disasters, then they failed at step one when they became that kind of disaster. They've failed structurally and definitionally. And if they know that, and are doing it anyway, that's not some kind of noble sacrifice or necessary evil. They've just moved onto traumatizing everyone, forever, until the end of time, because at least then they've got an illusion of certainty that ONLY the Shiplord(TM) brand of interstellar war crimes are allowed to exist anymore.
Yeah, pretty much. They've failed, they've turned the galaxy into a dystopia, and the only satisfaction they or anyone else could ever, ever get out of it is "at least the Shiplords are reasonably effective at making sure nothing Even Worse happens, and that their own race survives more or less indefinitely in its present somewhat frozen form."
 
But if you're trying to find such a solution, then taking this immediately to the Uninvolved? That's... very much something the Shiplords might never think of.

The Shiplords of that time wouldn't think of it because they view the Uninvolved as the happy 'off there somewhere' descendants of their 'children,' the species the 'shepherded' into ascent.

The Shiplords of this time wouldn't think of it because they view the rest of the galaxy with the eyes of a cruel and paranoid garrison state, and so the idea of so quickly abdicating control of something that important to anyone but the Shiplords would be unthinkable.
There's also the fact that as of the War of the Hjivin Sphere the Uninvolved are already known as the Uninvolved specifically because they don't act - there was some previous time they acted that ended up traumatizing the Shiplords.

Then, as the war turned, the ending you had seen came to pass. What you had seen within one star system played out across scores more, the death of a species executed in the space of moments.

And from that ending came a great fear, cloaked in history that you did not recognise. Scars millions of years old then fuelled it, and was it truly so irrational? The Uninvolved that had finally acted to bring an end to the conflict had wiped away a race with all the apparent effort of swatting a fly.

So from a Shiplords' perspective asking the Uninvolved to act is inviting an atrocity to prevent that very atrocity from occurring.
 
already known as the Uninvolved specifically because they don't act
I think the name "Uninvolved" comes from the notion that they have removed themselves from being involved in the universe, having transcended. They fled from reality as we know it instead of continuing to face the horrors of existence.

there was some previous time they acted that ended up traumatizing the Shiplords.
I'm not confident this is the intended meaning of that statement, but I'm also not confident I can explain it better.
 
As for my own vote... it's a tough one, but I think I have to agree with @RyubosJ here -- the other two options are just too obvious. They have to have been tried ad nauseum already.

[x] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?

But I may switch my vote if anyone has a good write-in.
 
[x] Contact Fleets were diplomats as much as anything else, but were any of their number ever as skilled as you? What might happen if you simply ask?
 
Are the Shiplords even aware of the attempted ascension that set off the Uninvolved?

I do have one idea that is pretty dependent on how much the Shiplords know about that perspective: get the key information as quickly as possible and then try to get the attention of the Uninvolved early. Give them more time to react instead of needing to slam home an attack at the last second.
They are, yes, but they only found out after the war came to the end and the cultural scars had already been inflicted. So the Uninvolved explaining was kinda like someone holding a nuke launcher standing over the smoking remains of an entire civilisation telling someone who was in Nagasaki that it was completely ok and that they'd never actually use the nuke launcher again unless they had to.

The idea you have here is...maybe possible? Definitely something crazy enough for humans to think of, though developing something like that could be pretty difficult for them, especially in the middle of a war. You can't exactly just 'pray' and hope an Uninvolved is listening. And from Amanda's own understanding of the Uninvolved they probably wouldn't act unless things had reached a point where there was literally no other choice.

Then again, Solar level Diplomacy bullshit.

There's also the fact that as of the War of the Hjivin Sphere the Uninvolved are already known as the Uninvolved specifically because they don't act - there was some previous time they acted that ended up traumatizing the Shiplords.
To clarify this. The action of the Uninvolved that ended the War of the Hjvin Sphere was one that triggered a related cultural trauma within the Shiplord psyche that goes back so far that Amanda and co. aren't sure there were Uninvolved at the time. It is also the specific reason for the Shiplords developing the anti-Uninvolved weaponry that they employed against humanity during the Third and Fourth Battles of Sol.
 
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I'll admit I'm a little confused. I get what the purpose of this simulation is for the Shiplords, but what are we hoping to get out of "solving" the scenario that we can't get from the recorded history? I know there was a bit of dialogue discussing it, but I didn't quite follow.

Also, if we do solve the scenario, does the simulation alert the caretakers and/or others? That seems like the kind of thing we'd program in.
 
@Shwaggy
The tribute fleets and the second secret ban seem tone because of this, as those are the only solution the shiplords could come up with.
 
I'll admit I'm a little confused. I get what the purpose of this simulation is for the Shiplords, but what are we hoping to get out of "solving" the scenario that we can't get from the recorded history? I know there was a bit of dialogue discussing it, but I didn't quite follow.

Also, if we do solve the scenario, does the simulation alert the caretakers and/or others? That seems like the kind of thing we'd program in.
Because part of what the Shiplords asked, back at the end of the Third Battle of Sol (section is linked in the update) was that you try to find a better way.

On the matter of an alert if you solve this? You're not sure, but it would be reasonable to assume one would be there.
 
It would certainly be interesting to see the ripples such an alert would send through Shiplord society.

Would certainly blow our cover, but it would be interesting.
 
Because part of what the Shiplords asked, back at the end of the Third Battle of Sol (section is linked in the update) was that you try to find a better way.

On the matter of an alert if you solve this? You're not sure, but it would be reasonable to assume one would be there.
So we want to use this as a test to see if our methods are, in fact, able to solve what they couldn't? Alright.

So ups and downs of using glorious SolarPractice bullshit to solve it (and I'm just brainstorming here):
-It's kind of Kirking the Kobayashi Maru, by bringing in a method that simply wasn't available in the scenario.
-While showing there's a better option now, it would be a justification of their past choices - sure, Practice fixes things, but they didn't have Practice so they have no reason to believe their methods until now were in error.
-On the other hand, if we can solve it that way it supports a statement of "You couldn't necessarily fix things without going full suppression, but we can, so you can lay down this burden of protecting the galaxy alone and rely on us."
-Though of course being able to solve the situation with our fancy totally-not-magic and prior knowledge of how it turned out doesn't necessarily mean we could have done it right in their place.
-This is also a predictive simulation based on their recordings and data, and using predictive logic they coded - there's not really any way of knowing what the Hjivin's reactions to a very different chain of events would have been. Unless this is superscience prediction on the level of Practice, grabbing accurate information from the ether?
-Also solving it through Practice and having that communicated to the Shiplords here may cause a reaction, whether a good, bad, or mixed one I couldn't guess. Also depends on if it just sends that locally, or automatically broadcasts it further.

As for the other listed approaches:
[] Turn the full strength of the Contact Fleet's expertise to investigating the rotten truth beneath the Sphere's skin. They are close to matching the Shiplords of this time, but only that.
-Yeah, hard to believe the Shiplords wouldn't have come up with "Go all in on investigating right from the start" and tried most possible iterations of that in the last millenium

[] The Hjivin emissaries will not give you the answers you seek. But might their staff, or the servants below them? Dangerous to act right under the nose of a near-peer, but it just might work.
-Again, would seem odd if they didn't consider this too, given their widespread use of infiltration tactics. Then again, there is a gap between that and just talking to them. Don't know if it's a large enough gap that it hasn't been tried a billion times, but it's at least a possibility. And the "Amanda effect" may help this one out just as the first, though not necessarily in the "hide it from the Hjivin" aspect

[] Write-in
-
To try and think outside the box here, perhaps the mistake is trying to fix it all by themselves. Were there any other races around at that time they might have called in for aid?
 
To clarify this. The action of the Uninvolved that ended the War of the Hjvin Sphere was one that triggered a related cultural trauma within the Shiplord psyche that goes back so far that Amanda and co. aren't sure there were Uninvolved at the time. It is also the specific reason for the Shiplords developing the anti-Uninvolved weaponry that they employed against humanity during the Third and Fourth Battles of Sol.
So and still - the core of the problem was Hjvin Sphere turning into a Deviant Uninvolved.

What I am asking - what precisely do the Shiplords have cultural trauma against? What is the problem this scenario is angling to solve?

If it's about finding a way to prevent the Uninvolved interfering in worldly matters then it's a Catch-22 scenario in the first place.
---Failing to defeat Hjvin Sphere in a timely manner will have the Uninvolved eradicate the Hjvin Sphere in a perversion of what they are supposed to be;
---Defeating the Hjvin Sphere in a timely manner would likely require confronting the core of the plan, creation of a perversion of what Uninvolved supposed to be.

Either way, the cultural trauma related to Uninvolved will take place... Or if I am reading it right, it will be a cultural trauma that was pre-existent since the times before even the Uninvolved but somehow related to what they did.

Ultimately, though, I really feel they've missed the point. If all they're doing is aimed to prevent these kinds of disasters, then they failed at step one when they became that kind of disaster. They've failed structurally and definitionally. And if they know that, and are doing it anyway, that's not some kind of noble sacrifice or necessary evil. They've just moved onto traumatizing everyone, forever, until the end of time, because at least then they've got an illusion of certainty that ONLY the Shiplord(TM) brand of interstellar war crimes
Or perhaps they didn't fail because prevention of atrocities was never their direct intention.

If their direct intention was to carve into the psyche of all the young races what the atrocities are like when experienced on themselves, then they undeniably succeeded. From a certain angle they are even reprising their role as the mentors of young races. If warped tremendously.

"Committing these acts is an atrocity that should never be tolerated. Let me demonstrate exactly why."

Teaching by providing an example of what NOT to do.



All that aside, if we look at the previous location we investigated... I think the lesson that Shiplords themselves took from Hjvin specifically was that they must be proactive when confronting possible threats. They cannot afford to assume their adversaries will be willing to resist temptation of doing something foolishly dangerous if they have the capability to do said foolishly dangerous something.

That is, after all, why they insisted on the people in question deactivating their nanites (IIRC, it's been a while) before any negotiations would properly continue.
 
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