[X] Arts and Crafts
The Path Unending (A Cultivation Quest)
- Thread starter Vesvius
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@Vesvius Would you be ok with having a separate vote on whether we should DD on A Fractal View? It's a pretty contentious topic and now that we're on the cusp of either infusing or starting the DD, it might work out better to have it be separate vote rather than just part of the weekly plan votes. I'd like to avoid any tactical voting or salt in the weekly voting if possible. Just let it be majority vote so we can move on from it lol
Narratively it could be added to one of the tournament updates as Kong Zhi self reflects on his own charm while watching the contestants work or something like that.
I'll offer up this low quality meme to sway you.
Narratively it could be added to one of the tournament updates as Kong Zhi self reflects on his own charm while watching the contestants work or something like that.
I'll offer up this low quality meme to sway you.
Triple down or bust!
That would be insufficient.
Thinking about it, I think I probably agree that a DD go/no go vote is required.
From my reading of the thread, there are two camps, the 'just complete it, prior to Deer fight' camp and 'DD post Deer fight'.
I say this because while KZ can technically DD & infuse pre-Deer, therewas some math estimates posted recently that outlined the action cost at ~11, which is like 90% of remaining available actions which makes it completely infeasible, as it would likely leave KZ too unprepared.
The reality of the mechanics of voting between the two opposing camps is that DD camp have to 'win' two votes in a row (i.e. weekly plans that do not allocate AP to infuse) whereas Finish It camp just need to win either one of two votes.
It's not strictly balanced, let alone getting into scenarios like DD post-Deer potentially postponed/circumvented.
Getting even more meta, DD is problematic because narratively with single BT completion, KZ can & does specifically note the imperfections of the single'd charms construction. These imperfections might be invisible to anyone other than specialist charmcrafters, but KZ is a specialist charmcrafter and so obviously notes them.
For more workman like pieces/regular commissions (Fa's upcoming axe?) I think single BT is fine, but for integral pieces of KZ's kit, especially something like AFV which is singularly unique and is likely to be something KZ uses for the rest of his life, DD is the only fitting way.
From my reading of the thread, there are two camps, the 'just complete it, prior to Deer fight' camp and 'DD post Deer fight'.
I say this because while KZ can technically DD & infuse pre-Deer, therewas some math estimates posted recently that outlined the action cost at ~11, which is like 90% of remaining available actions which makes it completely infeasible, as it would likely leave KZ too unprepared.
The reality of the mechanics of voting between the two opposing camps is that DD camp have to 'win' two votes in a row (i.e. weekly plans that do not allocate AP to infuse) whereas Finish It camp just need to win either one of two votes.
It's not strictly balanced, let alone getting into scenarios like DD post-Deer potentially postponed/circumvented.
Getting even more meta, DD is problematic because narratively with single BT completion, KZ can & does specifically note the imperfections of the single'd charms construction. These imperfections might be invisible to anyone other than specialist charmcrafters, but KZ is a specialist charmcrafter and so obviously notes them.
For more workman like pieces/regular commissions (Fa's upcoming axe?) I think single BT is fine, but for integral pieces of KZ's kit, especially something like AFV which is singularly unique and is likely to be something KZ uses for the rest of his life, DD is the only fitting way.
Edit: Nvm, I probably shouldn't contribute more to this argument.
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Knight-Radiant
Recovering Rageaholic
There is more to life than numbers.
We could spend a month TDing the thing into triple digits only for it to provide practically no real buff to the charm because at the end of the day, it's just a number. Ves will take that BT number and turn it into whatever he wants. Adding 50+ to something may sound great mathematically...
But Ves fucking hates math lol
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Knight Im pretty sure they were meming.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
What Ves does love is narrative and rewarding player commitment.
I for one would be hard pressed to say that more effort, in character from Zhi and out of character from the players in the form of committed actions (you know, the thing that dirty number is just a representation for) is something Ves will ignore? That you can't see any narrative significance to a hypothetical focus on this charm? The number is besides the point, I agree, but that doesn't actually make this any less empty of an argument.
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Just because Zhi sees imperfections in the Charm doesn't mean they really exist. Zhi himself recognizes his crafting and thoughts on Fractal are shaped by Mania - that when he gets into the zone, he always sees flaws, always sees more space for runes, etc. I think that AFV will be an impressive masterpiece reguardless of if we DD onto it or not.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Of course it will. It just could be better - manic or not Zhi won't be outright wrong about factual matters like "I could add more runes to enhance this effect". Whether better is worth it? We can't say, that's the whole problem we'll have to decide on. It's not like Ves is subtle the update basically said that outright
A non-DD Fractal is an amazing charm, an impressive piece of work, the current masterpiece of his collection.
A DD Fractal will be better. How much better? We can't say. We also don't know how it will be better. But resourcing 4-5 more actions towards Fractal will have a benefit, both narratively and mechanically. It'll probably be worth the additional cost imo but both camps have valid points and dug in arguments.
Do we want Fractal in ~2 weeks (2 actions a week) or in ~3 weeks (3 actions a week)?
A DD Fractal will be better. How much better? We can't say. We also don't know how it will be better. But resourcing 4-5 more actions towards Fractal will have a benefit, both narratively and mechanically. It'll probably be worth the additional cost imo but both camps have valid points and dug in arguments.
Do we want Fractal in ~2 weeks (2 actions a week) or in ~3 weeks (3 actions a week)?
Yupp, it has 50% more BT than the box which was DD'ed up to 42 from 28 and the design and thought behind the charm is cool. It'll be awesome.
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Ummm @Vesvius
Will we have to vote on a theme to give them or are we just going to tell them to be creative? Will this be considered unrelated to charm crafting and might get us knifed in the back or mugged in the future?
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And are we judging by personal opinion or parameters? If it is personal opinion then we might have problems in too many contestants appealing to Mo Hanying instead of showing actual ability.
Will we have to vote on a theme to give them or are we just going to tell them to be creative? Will this be considered unrelated to charm crafting and might get us knifed in the back or mugged in the future?
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And are we judging by personal opinion or parameters? If it is personal opinion then we might have problems in too many contestants appealing to Mo Hanying instead of showing actual ability.
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- He/It/Argh!
Yeah, I'd be more interested in spending those extra 6 actions spent on a 50% improvement, on making something else where we get 100% value for time and it isn't such a big mystery box.
That said, I understand the DD arguments, and would compromise to a 50% extra work done. Although I doubt anyone would go for that if we aren't getting a mechanical reward.
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It's considered related to charmcrafting because we say it is, and we're the best charmcrafter in our circle, as shown by the duel.
And Mo trusts us (and Fan Zhao) - that's why she's got us judging to begin with. If someone tries appealing to Mo, they'll just get slapped down with "Judges decision is final". As was outlined in the update, we are seen as someone with status and authority in this area.
It's going to be contentious because you don't need artistic talent to be a charm crafter.
Jin made a shitty sculpture for the charm duel, but none of the judges said anything.
I expect some of the favorites getting booted since they're not that good at designing and crafting their pieces in this round.
A major theme of this quest is "you get out what you put in". I'm sure DD'ing will have effects.
But.
It's not a decision made in a vacuum. Effort spent on AFV is effort not spent on something else. DD'ing means 9-10 more actions to go instead of 3-4. There's a constant refrain that we have too many things to do and not enough time; those 6 extra actions are going to mean a lot of other things don't get done. It means putting off Fa's axe for another month, it means putting any other charmcrafting projects further than that. Not to mention the need to search for Wonders and integrate techniques, and to deal with other Caretaker actions.
Zhi was not sent ALT to make the best charm ever. He was sent it to help him fix a problem. Let's do so. We have delayed far too long for too little purpose.
But.
It's not a decision made in a vacuum. Effort spent on AFV is effort not spent on something else. DD'ing means 9-10 more actions to go instead of 3-4. There's a constant refrain that we have too many things to do and not enough time; those 6 extra actions are going to mean a lot of other things don't get done. It means putting off Fa's axe for another month, it means putting any other charmcrafting projects further than that. Not to mention the need to search for Wonders and integrate techniques, and to deal with other Caretaker actions.
Zhi was not sent ALT to make the best charm ever. He was sent it to help him fix a problem. Let's do so. We have delayed far too long for too little purpose.
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Kind of regretting my vote now that I think about it. Kicking out a bunch of people who are otherwise just as good or better charm crafters then the ones we pass because their not exactly like a Kong when it comes to value of artistic merit, especially since the contestants seem to generally to be otherwise without the resources too fulfill their potential, feels a little bad.
I'm now just imagining some poor girl working their ass off since they got here to learn how to make various objects, learn about materials, painstakingly understand how charm runes work, only to be kicked out in favor of someone who put in way less work but just happened to be a decent painter or have a eye for fashion.
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Valid points and kind of regret it to but everyone who made it this far put in a good amount of work into the craft. Also I think Zhi (and us) will judge the artwork more on just how talented they are. Art can be judged on the passion and hard work they put into it, instead of just how aesthetically pleasing it is.
Maybe Kong Zhi will get some input from Fan Zhao regarding who have done well in the previous rounds and take that into account?
New topic. Our favourite hammer, Chui Dao!
We know that it will have some kind of use in a fight, and I thinl it should be tested before the Deer. Not because it will be the deciding factor, but because it's an unknown.
I'd suggest trying some form of kata at the War Wonder. It's a kukuni of Steel and War after all.
In the future Chui Dao will likely be able to add it's own dice in a fight, so it'll be good to get it's cultivation up as well at some point.
Another thing is that while Chui Dao is a hammer originally it might not necessarily be so when fighting. Steel is malleable and War contains a multitude of weapon, so there is a descent chance that Chui Dao will get more control of its form at some point.