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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • TehChron said:
    And why wouldnt we be?
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    Cus siding witg old cannibal isnt winning. Thats the agressive short term get ahead option. When combined with the wealth buff i think it could be the start of a steamroll for us and just be insanely good overall. However i dont currently see it winning and i dont think we will get enough land in the negotiation and def the new sect options to really justify taking the wealth buff.
     
    From Aletai's convincing on discord, doubling our income from breaking Thin Qi permamently is better than weaker trials (last trials were historically bad,remember)

    [X] Blind the Thief
     
    DangerKitty said:
    Cus siding witg old cannibal isnt winning. Thats the agressive short term get ahead option. When combined with the wealth buff i think it could be the start of a steamroll for us and just be insanely good overall. However i dont currently see it winning and i dont think we will get enough land in the negotiation and def the new sect options to really justify taking the wealth buff.
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    The Reason Old Cannibal isnt winning is because with that option the only one who'd get more massively pumped than us would be Old Cannibal himself

    It's an Insanely bad idea
     
    Anyway, we did get some good Q&A going on.

    1) We're actually very good at playing the Soft Power Game, while we're not diplomacy stacked we more than make up for it by being better at intrigue. "Lady Jiao might be able to charm your socks off, but Manuel has pictures of you in your underwear" was the specific example given. Righteous Path also grandfathers in our current experts, the big downside is that we don't get to repurpose the flesh and body parts of our defeated foes anymore, which boils down to "Less loot from smashing victories." Oh well.

    2) Blind the Thief effectively pushes the Curse of Impoverishment off the table. Getting it lifted on our core territories was never going to be in the cards, but the Boon means it shuts off now, when it otherwise would last just long enough to twist all of our gains in this war. Given how Jingshen's best socialite is currently looking to be in awful condition to do so and Manuel is coming off the high of a short victorious war, even getting a 50/50 result out of the upcoming partioning is likely to double our income after a century or two of development--which we get free of fear from Old Cannibal's assault. This allows us to afford massive trial mitigation on top of making practical the Technique Palace Restoration Project. Our overall numbers also expand dramatically which gives us greater resilience to our rivals.

    3) Empowered Manuel isn't to be fucked with. Not only does it immediately make him one of the most dangerous Nascent Souls outside of the SPS/Demonic Altar Masters in the Region, but nobody else knows that, it's effectively a "Manuel fucking wins the next Nascentbowl he gets into because nobody is expecting him to be able to win a straight fight and he can exploit that to lead them into a death zone." That being said, it's nigh useless until that big reveal.

    4) Don't forget, the last Trials were Historically bad thanks to the Bad Luck curse being used to push a terrible result into Nat-1 territory. We also did no trial mitigation leading up to it.
     
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    TehChron said:
    The Reason Old Cannibal isnt winning is because with that option the only one who'd get more massively pumped than us would be Old Cannibal himself
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    ? I dont think hed benefit more than us if we played our cards right. Getting a shit ton of money, being able to embargo and press on the jingshen clan with our trade routes and bribing spend extravagant amounts of money making ourselves stronger is nothing to sneeze at. Cannibal would have to put in serious work and even then he isnt garunteef to succeed and we get a 200 year break from him.

    To me the combos im ok with are.

    Old cannibal + money buff. aggro making a play for becoming king of the deserts option.

    Old cannibal + old old gold buff. Super aggro play. We attack jingshen economically with tariffs and old gold goes on the front lines to presd them into submission. Tbh i like this one alot. Its the gigachad old gold option.

    Negotiated end + trib boost. Get enough money and use manuels teaching skills (which are his best stat and we havent been leveraging that at all) to raise a new nascent soul. Also drastically speeds up new seed growth.

    Negotiated + trial boost. The safe long term growth option. Kinda boring but all around good.

    Go righteous path. Change the rules of the game. I think with this we would be trying to grow as much as possible and throw off our curses as much as possible before we pull le epic backstab amd go back to demonic path.
     
    Fixed tally, I messed it up last time.
    Adhoc vote count started by Katana1515 on Mar 13, 2021 at 6:27 PM, finished with 259 posts and 57 votes.
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    Alectai said:
    2) Blind the Thief effectively pushes the Curse of Impoverishment off the table. Getting it lifted on our core territories was never going to be in the cards, but the Boon means it shuts off now, when it otherwise would last just long enough to twist all of our gains in this war.
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    Wait, truly? Is that confirmation that a good territory-grab from this war could itself remove the Curse of Impoverishment entirely?

    Is that the case?

    So it's a question of:
    "Do you cure your Poverty Curse now, and get an income increase as a result? And thus get more wealth to play around with every turn?"
    or
    "Do you cure or mitigate another of your Banes and end the Poverty Curse by grabbing a bunch of Battle Blood Cannibal Sect territory?"

    It's still tempting to grab Blind the Thief because money can be used to mitigate or salve all sorts of other problems or to build up strengths, but... I can see why people would remain very tempted to be able to go for "Mitigate as many Banes as possible" instead. Because lessening Curses is the same as lessening the pressure that dunks your head under the water. It makes things, well, easier in some way too.
     
    Last argument for "Walk into the light" (combined with "The negociated end"), I think it might net us more money in the long run than Wealth curse debuff.

    After all, the Cannibal's lands are the poorest of the region and well get like half of them so I can't see Wealth curse debuff granting us more than 5-10 Wealth per turn... which is quite significant but :

    • Being stronger means being in a better position to grab more land in negociations, which also means a bit more wealth too.
    • Being stronger means it's easier to defend our tariffs (which are unaffected by Wealth Curse).
    • If / when our enemies come knocking, we'll lose much less and stand to gain much more.
    • The Bees won't stand a chance against us.
     
    Garlak said:
    Wait, truly? Is that confirmation that a good territory-grab from this war could itself remove the Curse of Impoverishment entirely?

    Is that the case?

    So it's a question of:
    "Do you cure your Poverty Curse now, and get an income increase as a result? And thus get more wealth to play around with every turn?"
    or
    "Do you cure or mitigate another of your Banes and end the Poverty Curse by grabbing a bunch of Battle Blood Cannibal Sect territory?"

    It's still tempting to grab Blind the Thief because money can be used to mitigate or salve all sorts of other problems or to build up strengths, but... I can see why people would remain very tempted to be able to go for "Mitigate as many Banes as possible" instead. Because lessening Curses is the same as lessening the pressure that dunks your head under the water. It makes things, well, easier in some way too.
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    The effect is permanent even after the Curse falls off, the narrative purpose was that our core territories are never going to be super productive.

    So the curse falls off after means all of our gains are subject to it (But any future ones will not be), it falls off before means that none of our gains coming up are subject to it (So we get up to half of a Great Power's territory completely free of the Curse--even if it's marginal territory it's still going to be richer than our entire current enclave)
     
    DangerKitty said:
    Old cannibal + old old gold buff. Super aggro play. We attack jingshen economically with tariffs and old gold goes on the front lines to presd them into submission. Tbh i like this one alot. Its the gigachad old gold option.
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    Yeah, that is actually a pretty strong combo if you are patient.

    Because -- the under the table deal with Old Cannibal sets us up for conflict with the Jingshen later on, right? And Old Cannibal is still around himself too, right?

    Well guess what just change for Manuel? His endurance. He can fight now.

    Meaning that, when Old Jingshen finds out what Old Cannibal and Old Gold pulled off... Well, if he tries to come at Manuel with a multiple Nascent Soul posse? Manuel can sucker punch him.

    And nobody will expect Manuel to be able to go Super Saiyan like that.

    Alternatively, if Jingshen is less likely to pick a fight with the Golden Devils even with a 2-1 or 3-1 advantage? Well, once the 200 year truce ends, Old Cannibal will be looking to come take a swing at Manuel again, right?

    Except, again: this time, Manuel will not have the endurance penalty.

    Which means that after 200 years, Old Cannibal gets a nasty surprise as Manuel dumpsters him in a direct fight!

    Man. I'm not voting for the Deal With A Devil option, but man is it tempting and amusing to think about...

    EDIT:
    Alectai said:
    The effect is permanent even after the Curse falls off, the narrative purpose was that our core territories are never going to be super productive.

    So the curse falls off after means all of our gains are subject to it (But any future ones will not be), it falls off before means that none of our gains coming up are subject to it (So we get up to half of a Great Power's territory completely free of the Curse--even if it's marginal territory it's still going to be richer than our entire current enclave)
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    Oh wow, so that is a "yes" answer to my question then.

    Taking over the Cannibal territory ends the Curse, huh? So any new territory -- or tribute! tribute also counts -- we win after this is Curse-free.

    So it's only a question of whether we want to end the Curse before we get an influx of territory, which would lead to an the possibility of significant income gains because of that... Or whether we don't get improved income gains, but does mean that any future territory conquest we do does get the same benefit.
     
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  • Sidestory

    • "Good morning father."

    "Mornin´to you too dear. Eat up." Mmmh. The Frog soup looks great this morning. Man, the new trade thanks to Lady Callistas and her weird Silk-pants subordinate is nice.

    "Enjoying the new recipe?"Is it that obvious?

    "Ha, don´t be too shy, take a second helping we don´t want it to go to waste!" Ohh, don´t mind if I do! *Munch*

    As wes at there for the first time in years, I begin to think. With the Goody two-shoes captain arriving everything changed. Dad suddenly got more money from his job. He called it a most benevolent protection racket. Whatever that means. Oh and Mum, she suddenly does…stuff.

    "Why is Mum so excited anyway?"

    "Oh, haven´t you heard? Healer Xia finally found the reason for her drowsiness and managed to cure her!" With a glass raised and a smile on his lips he drank some stinky brew.

    "Hey, that´s my name!"

    "That it is and hers as well!"

    "Hmpfh, I wear it better!" With movements borne of practice I get up and take my dishes to our brand new sink. It´s so beautiful and even winered! Yes, hearing out that silk-pants definitely helped!

    "Sure you do. Now get out, don´t you havea friend to find?"

    "Fine, old man. Don´t break your back while I am out!" With that said I made my way out of our apartment towards the seamstress.

    Sadly, the Seamstress seems tob e closed perm...forever, why else would the doors be shut in a working day and the windows have wood panels in front of them? After asking the local drunk on the streetcorner most young girl were heading towards the town well in the middle of the city.

    "Great. They could be just about anywhere, ugh."

    My search to find Lin doesn´t go any better by the town well, but I finally see my all-to-busy mother. Small victories, I suppose. Of course she uses the time to immediately hug me and praise my not inherent feminity to the high heavens in front of her friends before swerbing right back tot her favourite topics sewing and gardening, ugh. Mothers flower motif on her tablecloth alwaays looks better anyways. Why is the the bitch even trying to compete?

    Getting out of their circle of gossip thankfully only takes half an eternity this time. After asking a strangely scared cultivator, wearing a frilly band around his head, I finally got a description of the place where Lin and my supposed lessons on becoming a seamstress were held today. Ugh, the price for actually getting good sleep is steep. How bothersome! The place was easy to find, being the office of the Silk-Pants-Captain, or to be more polite Captain Fleetfeet of the Divination platoon. Pretentious prick.

    Only a few whispered sorrys and thank yous later I sit at the right edge of a column of eager students willing to work for little money to feed the endless stomachs of their families. At least I am sitting next to Lin. She seems tob e enjoying Lady Alexandria blabbering on and on about men prefering oval cuts and women prefering long v-formed necklines. The only reason women want more of that is to get easier access to the weapon under the mens belts!

    Wow, this is boring. I wanna earn money, not make rags that get damaged after 5 seconds of proper use!

    Hey, they changed the place. Now the prick even has a picture in his dumb office! Hmm, getting closer to the picture in the back in the room it seems to depict a devil, a vague figure and a tree.

    "What´s with the blob is that supposed to be Heaven?"

    "Quite right child, how are you today?" Oh, him again. At least it´s not the one with a weapon up his bottom.

    "Fine. Now what´s the context?"

    "Does there have to be one?"

    "You are the information cultivator, so yes. Now what is it?"

    "Since you are asking soo nicely I will tell you under just one condition." Of course.

    "What do you want?

    "Simple, you will choose a trade to learn from this list and earn your license successfully." He has a list for mortal jobs, what?

    "Now do we have a deal."

    "Yes, yes. Now give me the list so I can choose and get the reward." That smirk, he just won a bet didn´t he? I Scroll quickly through the vellum and choose the caravan trader. That´s where the money is at!

    "So Caravan trader, huh? It will be my pleasure then to guard you on your travels.

    "Yes, now the context?"

    "Oh, that´s just a depiction of a child story how our ancestors were viewed by the heavens, as apple thieves stealing knowlege from mankind."

    "That´s it?" With a simple nod I feel tense muscles ease up.

    "Jup, that easy."

    "But that´s so boring. Where is the action, the laughter and death?"

    "Oh they are in another-"

    "Captain, Sir. Post for you." In the same breath the Weapon-up-his ass-guy gives the Captain a… letter. Strange.

    "Hey, why is he letter fancy?"

    "Because it´s important." In the same breath as I receive my answer his hand flickers and the letter unfurls and I pick up the stuff containing the letter.

    "Why is it blue?"

    "To show why it is important. In this case, because it came from family. Now give me a minute, please." Shit, he said the magic word. Better shut my mouth. I don´t want to find out if the tales about magic words and the cultivator curses I could get afflicted from are true.

    "Thanks."What, how did he notice? Oh, right. Cultivator. Duh.

    With every breath his face scrunches up more and more. First like he ate something terrible like my fathers pancakes or drank that smelly stuff. Then he looks like someone told him he made a bargain. Everyone loves that.

    "What is it? What?" Come on tell me already. Ugh, that glare of disapproval. Not nice.

    "For the record. Just asking someone, especially a cultivator about their correspondence…their letters is a terrible idea, got it? After a nod he continues.

    "In this case I don´t mind you knowing, because I am getting a brother! Isn´t that great? Wow such happiness in his eyes. I am tempted to ruin the moment by saying no, but he doesn´t deserve it.

    "It…It well is. Congratulations!"

    "Why thank you, little one. Now let´s go this way." Oh, maybe he will show me some pictures of his family doing something silly, heh. No chance I won´t miss that.

    After a few minutes of walking through corridors, with qi lamps being the most common decoration lighting on our way, we arrive at an unadorned door with brass knobs. The Captain knocks.

    "Yes, come in." Is all that was said before the Captain throws open the door and ushers me into the room.
    "Merchant Jai, good to see again." They both bow as befits their station and I mirror the merchant. Formality must be observed.

    "Ah I see. She already knows the basics of etiquette." Hey I am here too, you know. I would have said that if I was allowed to talk at all.

    "Jup, She is your new caravan apprentice." With a flick of his wrists he produces three paperes and…

    "Where did you get mums signature?"

    "Why, she was positively enraptured at receiving the knowledge her daughter was chosen to learn the merchant trade connecting the Oases."

    "You tricked her! You couldn´t have known I would pick this trade to learn!" What an ass. Now I actually have to learn it. Pissing of mother would be a horrible idea. She can hold a grudge.

    "You want to tell me a girl only really interested in talking to me once we are talking finances would be interested in any other trade?"

    "I-I could learn to become a butcher?"

    "Ha, good one and with what strength?" Ugh, I hate how correct he is.

    "Ok. I will do it. Do I have to sign anything?" That smirk oh no.

    "Nope, you signed everything in the boxes next to the list."

    "Oh." What else can there be said. I was played and I can´t even be really mad at him. It will make me filthy rich -for a mortal- but still. Rich.

    "Now then. If that´s everything. You two can start right away. Have a nice day!"

    "Ah, thank you Lord Angelus. We´ll be sure to use the time given to us to make the most for the clan." He doesn´t even look back. He just leaves and now I have to learn everything about caravans and stuff, ugh. Mum will never stop talking about this event, will she?

    "Now, young girl. What´s your name? No reason to work together without a name to attach to eachother, right?" I suppose? Is everyone of these guys just weird or is my luck just that strange? Anyway.

    "My family is called Zhao and I am their daughter Xia." There, even a bow for good measure. What, why is he making that face?

    "No, no, no. That simply won´t do. You need to change you balance for that type of bow."

    What?

    "Now, I am Merchant Jao Fao, Master to you. Now mirror my actions."

    This is not going to be easy, ugh. But, I will do everything for a better tomorrow with a better house!
    _____________________
    For Turn 8: (Timewise after the Commander Gaiarados died)

    Words: ca. 1621 @Alectai , @Mochinator
     
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  • Sidestory
    • DangerKitty said:
    Cus siding witg old cannibal isnt winning. Thats the agressive short term get ahead option. When combined with the wealth buff i think it could be the start of a steamroll for us and just be insanely good overall. However i dont currently see it winning and i dont think we will get enough land in the negotiation and def the new sect options to really justify taking the wealth buff.
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    Ah, we'll get twenty-nine more votes from somewhere...

    TehChron said:
    The Reason Old Cannibal isnt winning is because with that option the only one who'd get more massively pumped than us would be Old Cannibal himself

    It's an Insanely bad idea
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    More pumped? I doubt it. It's not like he's slower than an Abyssal Bee already. If he gets too greedy in the Verdant South, they'll get together to stomp him. They're a fractious bunch, more interested in infighting and competitions than storming mountainous fortresses, but if Old Cannibal makes too much mess, they'll do it.

    Further, us getting the desert is bigger than him getting the Bees. It's just plain a fuckton more wealth. And again, we'd get a break for a couple of centuries while we fortify our West.

    DangerKitty said:
    ? I dont think hed benefit more than us if we played our cards right. Getting a shit ton of money, being able to embargo and press on the jingshen clan with our trade routes and bribing spend extravagant amounts of money making ourselves stronger is nothing to sneeze at. Cannibal would have to put in serious work and even then he isnt garunteef to succeed and we get a 200 year break from him.
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    And there's a good chance that Jiao will die. I definitely don't like her chances vs Old Cannibal.
     
    Alectai said:
    So the curse falls off after means all of our gains are subject to it (But any future ones will not be), it falls off before means that none of our gains coming up are subject to it (So we get up to half of a Great Power's territory completely free of the Curse--even if it's marginal territory it's still going to be richer than our entire current enclave)
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    Cannibal lands are poorer than ours (and already diminished by the previous deal with Old Cannibal). Also, much of our income comes from tariffs and our shiny Spirit Mines. So, let's say Thin Ki means 60% less yield from conquered land, they still have about 75% of a normal great power left to split between Jingshen and us.

    I could see it thusly :

    • % of the cannibal's starting income gained without taking wealth curse debuff : ((75%/2)*0.4) = 15 %
    • % of the cannibal's starting income gained with taking wealth curse debuff : ((75%/2)*0.7) = 26,25 %

    Now, those are numbers I pulled out of my ass but I think it's a pretty conservative estimate. This is not counting the money we'll get from tariffs and extra land we might get if we are stronger. So in the end I think it'd be someting like + 30-40 % wealth/turn vs + 40-55% wealth/turn.

    Significant, to be sure, but not enough to be worth the cost of not getting Manuel Buff or Tribulation Buff.
     
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    [X] Blind the Thief

    To be honest. I don't care for the mechanics. I like the Trials. Having a 100 year interval of Indians from hell is an interesting element. I don't want to hamper with it by making it to weak.

    From a gameplay stand point i am utterly lost on what would be the best option.
     
    [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    Negotiated End gives us a chance to grow and recover, and I want Cloak the Ways Between because Wealth won't do nearly as good a job mitigated the Trials, and the Trials are our single greatest threat. Jingshen we can deal with over time far easier imo.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    Cannibal lands are poorer than ours (and already diminished by the previous deal with Old Cannibal). Also, much of our income comes from tariffs and our shiny Spirit Mines. So, let's say Thin Ki means 60% less yield from conquered land, they still have about 75% of a normal great power left to split between Jingshen and us.

    I could see it thusly :

    • % of the cannibal's starting income gained without taking wealth curse debuff : ((75%/2)*0.4) = 15 %
    • % of the cannibal's starting income gained with taking wealth curse debuff : ((75%/2)*0.7) = 26,25 %

    Now, those are numbers I pulled out of my ass but I think it's a pretty conservative estimate. This is not counting the money we'll get from tariffs and extra land we might get if we are stronger. So in the end I think it'd be someting like + 30-40 % wealth/turn vs + 40-55% wealth/turn.

    Significant, to be sure, but not enough to be worth the cost of not getting Manuel Buff or Tribulation Buff.
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    ...

    Dude.

    Two small provinces we took from the Cannibals were collectively worth about 10% of our pre-war income when fully developed. These provinces were effectively burned to the bedrock and we had to develop them entirely from scratch.

    We're getting anywhere from five to six times that number in this deal. And they'd be worth double what they'd be 'Normally' if we take the curse removal. I sincerely doubt that these lands are inherently worth half as much per square mile as the two we already took--which were both considered marginal lands even before we began settling them. Because even if they are we're still looking at a 50% buff to our prewar income.

    Remember, Cannibals don't have spirit stone mines because they're useless to them, these reserves are almost entirely unprospected and untapped.
     
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    Alectai said:
    ...

    Dude.

    Two small provinces we took from the Cannibals were collectively worth about 10% of our pre-war income when fully developed. These provinces were effectively burned to the bedrock and we had to develop them entirely from scratch.

    We're getting anywhere from five to six times that number in this deal. And they'd be worth double what they'd be 'Normally' if we take the curse removal. I sincerely doubt that these lands are inherently worth half as much per square mile as the two we already took--which were both considered marginal lands even before we began settling them. Because even if they are we're still looking at a 50% buff to our prewar income.

    Remember, Cannibals don't have spirit stone mines because they're useless to them, these reserves are almost entirely unprospected and untapped.
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    1. The land we got at the beginning was a sizable part of the Cannibal lands (maybe 15-20% I think) so so I'd be surprised if we get 6X more land in this deal.
    2. The land we get now won't be in prime condition either.
    3. We don't know if and how much mines there are on the Cannibal's lands.
    4. Reducing the curse doesn't eliminate the curse entirely, merely splits it by half so I doubt it would double the yield.
    Not saying you're entirely wrong of course, but my estimation would be X4 more land (rather than X5 or X6) than we got the first time around and maybe 50 % more yield (rather than double).

    Still a great boost, but we can get money elsewere (like increased tariffs to to Jingshen gaining land). On the other hand, considering Old Gold's cultivation speed, getting an upgrade to his power is priceless and very hard to get otherwise.
     
    Sparsebeard said:
    1. The land we got at the beginning was a sizable part of the Cannibal lands (maybe 15-20% I think) so so I'd be surprised if we get 6X more land in this deal.
    2. The land we get now won't be in prime condition either.
    3. We don't know if and how much mines there are on the Cannibal's lands.
    4. Reducing the curse doesn't eliminate the curse entirely, merely splits it by half so I doubt it would double the yield.
    Not saying you're entirely wrong of course, but my estimation would be X4 more land (rather than X5 or X6) than we got the first time around and maybe 50 % more yield (rather than double).

    Still a great boost, but we can get money elsewere (like increased tariffs to to Jingshen gaining land). On the other hand, considering Old Gold's cultivation speed, getting an upgrade to his power is priceless and very hard to get otherwise.
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    No, the curse is Gone for our new holdings if we take the perk, it's just that our old holdings aren't suddenly going to become wealthy in the future--and that was apparently never in the cards.

    Removing the penalty here only means that the Curse of Impoverishment falls off before it can drown our new lands, whatever they are. So they're worth 100% of their actual value instead of half that.
     
    Alectai said:
    No, the curse is Gone for our new holdings if we take the perk, it's just that our old holdings aren't suddenly going to become wealthy in the future--and that was apparently never in the cards.

    Removing the penalty here only means that the Curse of Impoverishment falls off before it can drown our new lands, whatever they are. So they're worth 100% of their actual value instead of half that.
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    Really? I thought the boons were worth 2 shinies and the curse was worth 4 shinies?

    occipitallobe said:
    Not all curses or weakness are removed. Some are merely downgraded. As a rough guide, however, each bonus is worth approximately 2 Shinies in terms of power from the early game Clan construction.
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    Do you have a quote?

    If that's the case and it remoe the curse entierely it might be enough to convince me to approval vote it as I'd rate such an important wealth buff lower than Manuel Buff or Tribulation buff but still higher than the leading option.
     
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    Sparsebeard said:
    Really? I thought the boons were worth 2 shinies and the curse was worth 4 shinies?



    Do you have a quote?

    If that's the case and it remoe the curse entierely it might be enough to convince me to approval vote it as I'd rate such an important wealth buff lower than Manuel Buff or Tribulation buff but still higher than the leading option.
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    Click to shrink...

    It is 'Downgraded'

    In the sense that "Only your original territories are shackled by the Curse, but you have a big pile of new lands that are not, and anything you get from here on out is also safe"
     
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