The Path Unending (A Cultivation Quest)

I'm really not getting the appeal of the heart. The idea that he'll heal himself of the mutations by carving himself open and placing a charm inside himself doesn't really sound anything like the KZ we've seen so far. Nor does him making a monster form for himself to hulk out into during a fight. What part of his response to the mutations that were forced upon him makes you think that he'd want to have a toggle switch that'll make him go from normal human into a beast mode? I feel that there has been a problem with this vote based not around what to make, but what people want. Some people wanted to help KZ be healed while others liked the mutations forced upon him. This is the vote for those who never actually wanted to repair the damage done for either mechanical reasons or because they like the deformed KZ.

Any argument that we'd be wasting the previous votes to work on the claw/talon are disingenuous at best. They're at something like 4 out of 15 towards being completed. We don't have to keep feeding more votes into rehab just because we've spent a couple so far.

The coffin would help with farmer and developing a really strong base there, but will take longer for the mutations to be removed. For this delay it'd make some really good foundations.

A fractal view sounds awesome and for those who want some form of transformation this'll scratch that particular itch. This also lets us make something that could (in story) be a treasure for the family. We'd make something beautiful which shines with radiance, not something buried in KZ's chest cavity or a coffin.

[X] The Heart of Kong
[X] The Forge of Idealization

[X] A Fractal View

[X] The Forge of Idealization

[X] A Fractal View

Molyneux said:

I'm really not getting the appeal of the heart. The idea that he'll heal himself of the mutations by carving himself open and placing a charm inside himself doesn't really sound anything like the KZ we've seen so far. Nor does him making a monster form for himself to hulk out into during a fight. What part of his response to the mutations that were forced upon him makes you think that he'd want to have a toggle switch that'll make him go from normal human into a beast mode? I feel that there has been a problem with this vote based not around what to make, but what people want. Some people wanted to help KZ be healed while others liked the mutations forced upon him. This is the vote for those who never actually wanted to repair the damage done for either mechanical reasons or because they like the deformed KZ.

Any argument that we'd be wasting the previous votes to work on the claw/talon are disingenuous at best. They're at something like 4 out of 15 towards being completed. We don't have to keep feeding more votes into rehab just because we've spent a couple so far.

The coffin would help with farmer and developing a really strong base there, but will take longer for the mutations to be removed. For this delay it'd make some really good foundations.

A fractal view sounds awesome and for those who want some form of transformation this'll scratch that particular itch. This also lets us make something that could (in story) be a treasure for the family. We'd make something beautiful which shines with radiance, not something buried in KZ's chest cavity or a coffin.

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Honestly I think i'd feel more like this if it wasn't for this part here:

Vesvius said:

Over time transformation: whenever a technique is integrated, the heart will absorb some of the perfection of anam, and spread it through body and spirit.

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The over time transformation makes me put it a lot higher, as it feels like something we'd end up developing alongside Zhi, and thus tying it into his own growth and cultivation. It also means that the transformation over time becomes likely more removed from being Taiyoue's influence, and more representing Zhi's own progress.

I personally still like a Fractal View more though. It's pretty, it uses interesting ways to tie into the thematics of Stars, It opens up a potential new avenue of growth to explore that I find somewhat interesting. It also has the same kind of potential for later growth that heart does, but in a more freeform manner that I think could lead to a lot of fun scenarios. What's more the fact that it's ultimately restricted in some ways, such as requiring meditation, also means that it's not something that the thread is encouraged to Spam, making whatever growth comes out of it much more meaningful. Heck, pure speculation, but I think the sheer versatility of ALT means that any kind of rehab arc from it would likely also influence the transformations gained to be something closer to what Kong Zhi feels comfortable with, though again that's just speculation.

[X] A Fractal View
[X] The Forge of Idealization
[X] Spymaster's Pride

The3rdCorinthian said:

Honestly I think i'd feel more like this if it wasn't for this part here:

The over time transformation makes me put it a lot higher, as it feels like something we'd end up developing alongside Zhi, and thus tying it into his own growth and cultivation. It also means that the transformation over time becomes likely more removed from being Taiyoue's influence, and more representing Zhi's own progress.

I personally still like a Fractal View more though. It's pretty, it uses interesting ways to tie into the thematics of Stars, It opens up a potential new avenue of growth to explore that I find somewhat interesting. It also has the same kind of potential for later growth that heart does, but in a more freeform manner that I think could lead to a lot of fun scenarios. What's more the fact that it's ultimately restricted in some ways, such as requiring meditation, also means that it's not something that the thread is encouraged to Spam, making whatever growth comes out of it much more meaningful. Heck, pure speculation, but I think the sheer versatility of ALT means that any kind of rehab arc from it would likely also influence the transformations gained to be something closer to what Kong Zhi feels comfortable with, though again that's just speculation.

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Furthermore, from Ves's statement when voting opened I'm fairly certain we'll have a choice when making the charm which aspect - long term transformation or combat form - to focus on. (Like we did with the box) A fractal view is nice, but it requires more actions and resources to expand our form choices - Heart of Kong gives passive buffs without having to invest further.

nothingtoseehere said:

Furthermore, from Ves's statement when voting opened I'm fairly certain we'll have a choice when making the charm which aspect - long term transformation or combat form - to focus on. (Like we did with the box) A fractal view is nice, but it requires more actions and resources to expand our form choices - Heart of Kong gives passive buffs without having to invest further.

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Honestly, that's part of the reason I like Fractal View: It encourages us to NOT hyperfocus on just trying to create new forms to deal with issues, and instead to treat it as an extension of charmcrafting, where the best of our designs are the ones that rely upon inspiration and take some investement to make, but in turn are potent for their effect.

[X] The Forge of Idealization

[x] The Heart of Kong
[x] A Fractal View

[X] The Heart of Kong
[X] A Fractal View
[X] Spymaster's Pride

[x] In Amber Clad
[x] The Forge of Idealization
[x] Spymaster's Pride
[x] Chrysalis of the Polestar

[X] A Fractal View

The more I think about it, the more this stands out among the top 3 charms.

The forge has its issues, mainly how long it takes to get any value out of it and the use of the anvil.

The Heart is cool but I can't really see KZ wanting to Hulk Out. Also I'm reading JacobK's Heart of Cultivation right now which has the same heart implant idea so I'd like to do something different with Zhi.

Fractal is the most unique and the most inspiring charm imo. What better way to use Star Anam than to use the stars themselves. And it has the most long term value with the continuous upgrades and the wide variety of uses which will especially come in handy as a Caretaker!

Wistways said:

I just want it noted that with Forge it's going to be in quest time MONTHS before we get a benefit. MONTHS >_<

I know that "Reject all others Embrace Forge" is catchy but really think if you want your big fancy charm that you put a lot of effort into to then be put on a shelf for months. And then we only get benefits from it when we carve channels, which again we don't know how long it will take.

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Honestly, I think it's improbable that the sole effect Kong Zhi would make this Charm for would be boosting channel carving considering that he doesn't even know how to carve a channel in the first place, and his primary intent appears to be fixing his body in the Charm description, not making a dedicated channel carving focus. Therefore, there would likely be some immediate effects.

Remember, according to Ves and Ct, the mechanics of each and every one of the Charms are still in a state of flux. These aren't the final write-ups, so I don't think it'd be fair to assume the entire effects of a Charm from these write-ups alone. Is why I took into account the Charm description as well when making my decision.

Now, of course, you have every right to not accept this argument, as ultimately it's my subjective view, but that's just what I think tbh.

[X] A Fractal View
[X] The Forge of Idealization
[X] In Amber Clad

[X] A Fractal View

Refining my vote. Heart is cool, but I'd most like to see Fractal win. I'll add Heart back if it's the only way to beat Forge, which is far too long-term focused. Seriously, we don't even have anam sources for our techs yet, and people are already looking at the following stage?

[X] A Fractal View

After some consideration I'm going with Fractal View. You can probably make an argument that the other two leading options are mechanically superior, but I'm a sucker for aesthetics, and of the three Fractal View seems like the only one that's a work of art as well as a functioning charm, which is ultimately what the Kong family crafting style is all about.

Three1415 said:

Fractal View seems like the only one that's a work of art as well as a functioning charm, which is ultimately what the Kong family crafting style is all about.

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I think the Heart has an strong, classic artistic design and the Forge would absolutely be a grandiose work of art, but the View best exemplifies the unique artistry of the Kong style and best fits what I want Kong Zhi's personal style to be.

Regarding the Heart of Kong.

I'm really unsure what combat form will do.
The charm intent is that Zhi can swap limbs so that he can use the Talon and Claw, but those are physical warrior techniques.

Paying a huge amount of anam for physical techs with better dice than HD seems a bit strange. How would this play with the tech triangle? If an opponent use Defender they'll have a 1.5 bonus to their successes against the tech, and Zhi would be better served using an Archer tech?

However if the combat form gives additional dice to each round, it'd kinda be like the Box? But then having two charms with similar effect seems kinda redundant.

The only problem I have with heart is that it's "implanted inside Kong Zhi as a second heart". I don't see how a victim of involuntary body modification would try to "fix" himself with even more body modification.

@Wistways, your charm has the least detail in how it actually addresses our physical alterations. Do the constellations engender a physical change in us? Can you give an example of the sort of forms you envision?

ImperatorV said:

which is far too long-term focused. Seriously, we don't even have anam sources for our techs yet, and people are already looking at the following stage?

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I've said it once, I'll say it again. By the time we've finished ALT and are ready to use the charm, it'll probably be less time until we start Farmer than the thread seems willing to admit. We're also staring down the barrel of a cultivation step that could take an in-story decade. The benefits of something that could cut that time down are enormous.

Also, in general, I think the fact that the Heart and the Forge providing passive benefits (in Ves's current mechanical draft) from just doing normal cultivation things is hugely underrated.

Chopak said:

The only problem I have with heart is that it's "implanted inside Kong Zhi as a second heart". I don't see how a victim of involuntary body modification would try to "fix" himself with even more body modification.

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All of the top three contenders are body modification charms. Maybe it seems less weird for the body to be modified while cultivating or using a transformation talisman as in Forge and Fractal respectively, but that doesn't change the fact that all three are KZ fixing himself with some sort of transformative charm. The Heart just has built-in hardware DRM, which strikes me as a feature and not a bug.

I'll repeat that my biggest concern with A Fractal View is that it requires that we feed it more materials and possibly even Natural Treasures in order to unlock more functions. Unless we continue to invest in it further it'll be pretty much useless. But due to our status as a charm crafter we also will want to continue to make new things, which means that every time we get a good or interesting material I'm expecting there to be a huge debate about whether we should feed it to the cube or make something new. That just seems like it'll get utterly exhausting having to do that every time, on top of all the debates we already have on what to do with materials we find. I'm also a little worried about our wallet, because every time we go to the store and see a shiny material people will want to buy it to feed it into the cube. It also seems like it requires an action every time we want to use it, since we have to meditate, which will discourage using it in the first place.

The Heart of Kong doesn't require any of that. We'll be integrating techniques anyway, and we'll get an added benefit of some kind from every tech integrated.

Edkose said:

Regarding the Heart of Kong.

I'm really unsure what combat form will do.
The charm intent is that Zhi can swap limbs so that he can use the Talon and Claw, but those are physical warrior techniques.

Paying a huge amount of anam for physical techs with better dice than HD seems a bit strange. How would this play with the tech triangle? If an opponent use Defender they'll have a 1.5 bonus to their successes against the tech, and Zhi would be better served using an Archer tech?

However if the combat form gives additional dice to each round, it'd kinda be like the Box? But then having two charms with similar effect seems kinda redundant.

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I expect that the combat form will mechanically differ from the physical warrior techs we see right now. I also expect whatever it is to be quite useful. Regardless, I don't expect that Vesvius would give us something bad.

Chopak said:

The only problem I have with heart is that it's "implanted inside Kong Zhi as a second heart". I don't see how a victim of involuntary body modification would try to "fix" himself with even more body modification.

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If the fix enables him to have his original form except when he activates it, I don't see why he'd care all that much. He's having to use a charm to fix this regardless, it's just a matter of the method. I mean, A Fractal View is a charm that enables KZ to make yet more alterations to himself, with possibly other forms, so it kind of fits the same mold of "even more body modification".