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Star Wars: Ship Designer Quest

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Adventwolf said:
The CR-90 is way underarmed for a Frigate that is why it is a Corvette. The DP-20 on the other hand has the armor, speed, and more powerful weapons that it is not a Corvette but a Frigate in the size of a Corvette. And again the official classes only go off of size nothing else. It is why it is a bad system even in universe but compared to what used to be around it is the easiest to handle.
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If the setting has official classifications (even if they're chosen off a dumb reason), wouldn't it make more sense to use those classifications (even if you want to call the DP-20 a "pocket-frigate" and the CR-90 a "oversized corvette").

The Consular-class cruiser. By size, crew requirement, and armanent, I'd be inclined to call the armed variant a corvette. It calls itself a cruiser and is generally found under the "frigate" classification.
Carrack-classes are larger and well-armed, while also having a _massive_ crew requirement.
The Crusader-class corvette is really only armed for anti-starfighter stuff, but it's roughly the same size and crew requirements as a DP-20.

We're going around in circles on this. @Jax when they mean "corvette" do they mean "starship roughly 100 meters with 100 or fewer required crew" as you would expect for a planetary defense force with minimal resources, or are they also looking for "cheap undergunned flimsy thing" in addition?
 
Barondoctor said:
or are they also looking for "cheap undergunned flimsy thing" in addition?
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I get the feeling that the second part is more so because of budgets than desires. In the CR-90's case, it also has to do with the fact the ship isn't purely a warship. It has a sizable cargo hold, it has systems for planetary maneuvering, landing and takeoff, it has expansive passenger capacity. All these things, combined with the power system for the massive engine bank, make the CR-90 seem very poorly armed for a warship of its size.

The CR-90's big draw, and the reason it is so ubiquitous as a ship, is that even one that has freshly been rolled out the factory can be used for just about anything.
 
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Ship Classification System used
  • Informational
    • When characters mentioned a corvette, they mean a ship of that classification according to the Anaxes War College System. This is the most used and accepted way of classification in Univers. So, as long as we talk about ship classification in-game, you can go by the same thing.

    Also, the CR-90 is more of a jack-of-all-trades with the typical CEC approach of a ship for a broad market. The DP-20 is a specialist ship for the military market - at least that is my read on these ships.

    Edit: Smaller Changes in Words.
     
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  • Informational
    • "Would you like the cheap flimsy thing we sell to underbudgeted planetary defense forces so they can tell their merchants 'we tried', or would you like a ship that can actually do the job of defending your planet against a gang of pirates preying upon you? It won't be flimsy or undergunned, but it also won't be quite as cheap. How valuable are the lives of your planetary defense force?"

    Really, a tiny bit of marketing and we can sell the more expensive one easily. Besides, we need to remember:

    We are a boutique ship-builder--smaller but more focused and capable of handling custom work in-house a lot more easily. We do not have the economies-of-scale that someone like CEC has, but while they've set themselves up as highly modifiable, that's aftermarket parts and aftermarket costs that a potential buyer would end up running into, while with our ships they get an "out the door" price on a ship that's ready to fly.

    Our draw is that our ships are "handcrafted works of art" designed to the demands of our customers and better than the average ship they could just go buy "off the rack". Our Geonosian cost specialist helps keep things from getting far beyond our buyers' budgets.
     
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    Right, let's roll some dice!

    Marketing Dice Poll:
    + 2d6 by default
    + 1d6 for Speed
    - 1d6 for Price
    + 1d6 for Transport and Passenger Capacities
    + 1d6 for better than normal Weapons
    = 4d6 for Marketing
    Jax threw 4 6-faced dice. Reason: Marketing Roll Total: 11
    3 3 1 1 3 3 4 4
    Jax threw 1 6-faced dice. Reason: Plot Roll Total: 5
    5 5
     
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    Something to note in defence of the CR90 over the DP20, if you go by the FFG stat lines (controversial I know, but reasonable for these two, I believe) - the dorsal and ventral turrets on the CR90 are considerably punchier, having more damage, more armour pen, and a longer range. All defensive/health stats were identical. A lot of extra customisability in the CR90 as well.
     
    Or go the Star Wars Rebellion (who remembers that game?) and the DP-20 also called Correlian Gunship was heavy on the laser weaponry (likely dual and quads) that was an anti-fighter platform first which would make a lot of sense for a police ship with the ability to engage fighters and freighters from all angles and where turbolasers would be overkill, not to mention turbos don't track small targets as well.

    edit- also that pic for the DP-20 is the rebellion game pic.
     
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    OneirosTheWriter said:
    Something to note in defence of the CR90 over the DP20, if you go by the FFG stat lines (controversial I know, but reasonable for these two, I believe) - the dorsal and ventral turrets on the CR90 are considerably punchier, having more damage, more armour pen, and a longer range. All defensive/health stats were identical. A lot of extra customisability in the CR90 as well.
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    Granted; SAGA Edition gives the Corellian Gunship (an alternate name for the DP-20) slightly better defensive stats; offensively the DP20 has more guns at the same damage with lesser accuracy; it also has missile launchers and highly-accurate high-powered point-defense the CR90 doesn't have. It also gives the CR-90 cargo space (and thus customizability) the DP20 doesn't have.

    One rule-set favoring one of them over the other isn't super-meaningful; when you have three or four sources (X-Wing Alliance, Empire At War) all saying approximately the same thing (DP-20s are good at being fast, tough, and shooty; CR90s tend to have cargo / people space while also being fast and tough)...that's when I start drawing conclusions.

    If we were to make our planetary defense force corvette have a similar sort of size, crew, and speed as a DP20 with ion cannons and tractors instead of quite the same degree of turbolasers while maintaining the point-defense capability? I think that would cover most PDFs needs.

    A crew of roughly 100 with half of them as gunners, with the ship capable of limping back to a repair facility given a skeleton crew of 10. Strong hull and strong shields on defense with good engines for maneuverability and speed; Dorsal / Ventral Ion Cannons, Dorsal / Ventral Quad Laser turrets (x2), Dorsal / Ventral Turbolasers on offense with a utility tractor (still less gun than a DP20, if more varied) and you have a ship that can punch above its weight class while also being highly capable of bullying anything smaller than itself. A flotilla of about 3 of them and you'd have an answer to anything that wasn't a dedicated fleet. They'd also fit under the Republic's size requirement as I recall that was an issue.
    :::
    Along a completely different direction, we could angle for something along the lines of the Skipray Blastboat, a single-digit-crew "heavy assault starfighter" one fourth the size of a typical corvette with considerable resilience, and just sell a PDF a bunch of them in some different weapon loadout configurations.
     
    Barondoctor said:
    Granted; SAGA Edition gives the Corellian Gunship (an alternate name for the DP-20) slightly better defensive stats; offensively the DP20 has more guns at the same damage with lesser accuracy; it also has missile launchers and highly-accurate high-powered point-defense the CR90 doesn't have. It also gives the CR-90 cargo space (and thus customizability) the DP20 doesn't have.

    One rule-set favoring one of them over the other isn't super-meaningful; when you have three or four sources (X-Wing Alliance, Empire At War) all saying approximately the same thing (DP-20s are good at being fast, tough, and shooty; CR90s tend to have cargo / people space while also being fast and tough)...that's when I start drawing conclusions.

    If we were to make our planetary defense force corvette have a similar sort of size, crew, and speed as a DP20 with ion cannons and tractors instead of quite the same degree of turbolasers while maintaining the point-defense capability? I think that would cover most PDFs needs.

    A crew of roughly 100 with half of them as gunners, with the ship capable of limping back to a repair facility given a skeleton crew of 10. Strong hull and strong shields on defense with good engines for maneuverability and speed; Dorsal / Ventral Ion Cannons, Dorsal / Ventral Quad Laser turrets (x2), Dorsal / Ventral Turbolasers on offense with a utility tractor (still less gun than a DP20, if more varied) and you have a ship that can punch above its weight class while also being highly capable of bullying anything smaller than itself. A flotilla of about 3 of them and you'd have an answer to anything that wasn't a dedicated fleet. They'd also fit under the Republic's size requirement as I recall that was an issue.
    :::
    Along a completely different direction, we could angle for something along the lines of the Skipray Blastboat, a single-digit-crew "heavy assault starfighter" one fourth the size of a typical corvette with considerable resilience, and just sell a PDF a bunch of them in some different weapon loadout configurations.
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    I mean rely on the consistency of the video game sources then an ISD should be considered to have about seven turbolasers ;)
     
    OneirosTheWriter said:
    I mean rely on the consistency of the video game sources then an ISD should be considered to have about seven turbolasers ;)
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    I understand you have a certain preference for the CR-90 (I follow your quest) and it has a wide array of valuable traits for a Rebellion.

    Republic-era planetary defense forces have different needs and wants and would be better served by a different solution. Something along the line of the Imperial customs corvette might be more their style (big enough and tough enough to deal with pirates while also having the capacity for boarding operations). The goal here is not to favor one ship over another but to figure out what a good guideline is to start from in order to develop our planetary defense force corvette.

    Point-defense for fighters and small attack craft
    Ion Cannons to disable hostiles without destroying the ship or evidence contained within.
    Turbolasers to be able to protect their sovereignty against the potential threat of a Trade Federation blockade. (While one could dramatically customize a Lucrehulk, at this time they're oversized and undergunned enough that you could probably take one down with a couple Marauders or Carracks.)
    Tractor beam to capture hostile craft too small for turbolasers to properly track.

    Small crew requirement (a planetary navy tends to not be very large; 0.1% of population seems a fair number given that's approximately the proportion of the US Navy compared to the US population)


    A disabled and tractored ship can be boarded by any transport you happen to have on hand (even a basic freighter), so troop capacity should not be a consideration for our planetary defense corvette. Nor should cargo capacity for that matter. Your boarding transport can handle seizing contraband and throwing pirates into the brig and it can be as big and ugly as you like because all it has to do is safely transport your boarding party to the disabled ship.
    Edit: Also not a significant consideration- length of time in service without resupply and cargo room. I haven't run into any ship larger than a single-person-starfighter that carries anything less than a week's supplies. They'll be able to have basic freighters run supplies from the planet pretty easily, while still being able to handle a pitched battle if particularly ambitious pirates decide to give them one.
     
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    Themarineguy said:
    Don't forget the Star wars empire at war DLC that makes the Zann Consortium have the best of everything. Personal shield generators and very useful mass driver weapons that bypass all shields, to name just a few. :D
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    Did you know that mass drivers are not really banned in the republic? What I mean is, let's take a Venator, for example, as we all know, this ship would be forbidden before the clone wars. Now take the same Venator and replace all 8 heavy turbolaser turrets (the main armament) with 8 mass driver turrets and suddenly the ship would be legal.
     
    Havalt300 said:
    Did you know that mass drivers are not really banned in the republic? What I mean is, let's take a Venator, for example, as we all know, this ship would be forbidden before the clone wars. Now take the same Venator and replace all 8 heavy turbolaser turrets (the main armament) with 8 mass driver turrets and suddenly the ship would be legal.
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    I've been looking for what the Republic rules and regulations are for planetary defense force ships and I haven't been able to find it. Do you have a source document you're operating from?
     
    Havalt300 said:
    Did you know that mass drivers are not really banned in the republic? What I mean is, let's take a Venator, for example, as we all know, this ship would be forbidden before the clone wars. Now take the same Venator and replace all 8 heavy turbolaser turrets (the main armament) with 8 mass driver turrets and suddenly the ship would be legal.
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    Yes, and I am also aware that the big question is if it would even be effective in the first place, you should look at the conversations about the topic done earlier.......

    Edit: Actually not certain, but the main focus about those guns was the possible effectiveness, not legality.....
     
    01exia said:
    Interesting as in good publicity or interesting as in we somehow already screwed the plot over already?
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    I wouldn't say screwed but things change this time a bit more.
    Barondoctor said:
    I've been looking for what the Republic rules and regulations are for planetary defense force ships and I haven't been able to find it. Do you have a source document you're operating from?
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    That would be also interessting for me.
     
    Jax said:
    That would be also interessting for me.
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    I read it about 2 years ago on a Star Wars Wiki page, unfortunately I can't find it anymore, maybe it was taken out.

    It was said in any case that the restrictions relate 'only' to laser weapons. So in the Ruusan revormation, only energy weapons are spoken of, basically all heavy ship weapons are meant, but because it was not said in the reformation, energy weapons were expressly called. That is why mass drivers are a loophole, that has not been resolved in a thousand years.

    One of the reasons that mass drivers are not mentioned is that in the six thousand years that energy weapons have been used steadily, only the Manderlorians have used mass drivers in relatively large numbers and that was three to four thousand years ago, so they will regarded as no great danger. In addition, the ammunition you need will be relatively expensive in comparison to turbolasers and if you have the same space for ammunition for turbolasers and mass drivers, turbolasers can simply shoot longer in comparison.

    But I can also be wrong.
     
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    Here's what I could find regarding Ruusan restrictions: 600m size restriction. Nothing else I could find with any significant restriction. So, following Anaxes, that would be Corvettes, Frigates, and most Cruisers. Heavy cruisers are over that limit. That said, a Rendili Dreadnaught is within the restriction (barely), if one were to look for the biggest and nastiest thing we could plausibly expect one of our customers to encounter. Also within viable size restrictions: Carracks, Strikes, Quasar Fire carriers if they would prefer to go the starfighter route. That said, we're getting away from the main point:
    Corvettes.
     
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    Running out of Good Names for these ...
  • Threadmarks
    • "You wanted to see me?"

    Your father looked up from his pad and nodded as you entered his office. Behind him through the window, you can see Temaris and parts of the shipyards owned by your family. Without asking, you sat down on one of the chairs before your father's desk.

    "Yes, I wanted to talk to you about the Vulkan Freighter," he said with a weak smile. "You did good work there, son. Not just your Department, but as the head of the new Department as well. It is a starting point, but we will need a better performance if we want to survive the current crisis."

    "What do you mean? They took the freighter, right?"

    "Oh, they did, but not before threatening us with a lawsuit for not meeting the stated requirements. I had to give Far & Wide Trade a bulk discount that cost us some revenue, but you aren't to blame for this." Your father's face grew cold for a moment. He stared over your head at something invisible before he snapped out of his mood. "Rest assured that we won't do business with those sleemos again. The only saving grace is that we start to sell them to private persons. Not in huge numbers, but some local traders show interest, most of them have brought their old ships for an overhaul and now see these brand new ships standing around everywhere..."

    Your father grinned like a Hutt who just made the deal of his life. After a moment, he continued, "That is one of the reasons I wanted to see you. Marketing is fairly sure that they can push up sales in the coming months. Especially if we can push down the price for production or push up the speed even more. Apparently, those are the most critical points that discourage people from buying the ship. To make it short, we need a Vulkan Mk. II sooner than later. Can you spare one of your teams for this?"

    "That would weaken our team, not something I like, so close to the start of the corvette project."

    "So, is that a no?"

    You thought about it for a moment before you answered.

    [ ] "Well, yes, it is. At the moment, I can't spare any of my people. Maybe later."
    [ ] "Pinagg should do it. He is an expert in cost reduction, I think he can push the production cost down a bit."
    [ ] "Shen should do it. He is young and wishes to prove the trust I put into him was justified."

    Your father nodded. "All right then."

    Explanation:
    Sometimes you will be given the possibility of side-projects. These are smaller than whole projects but still can be rewarding. The person you choose to take part in these will be removed from the regular roster, their stats and bonuses won't be accessible until the side-project is complete.

    Choose 1 Upgrade!

    [ ] Personal Stat +1
    -[ ] Frame
    -[ ] Engine
    -[ ] Cockpit
    -[ ] Weapons
    -[ ] Special Compartment

    [ ] Hire an Expert
    -[ ] Gaath Kootto, a Mon Calamari who has excellent expertise in the construction of ship frames.
    -[ ] Dhin Nerroma, a Bothan female who has a thing for engines.
    -[ ] Pika Bheilwod, a Dug engineer who makes the best cockpits you've ever seen.
    -[ ] Ellim, a female Wookiee who likes guns, rockets, and weapons in general.
    -[ ] Thor D'non, a Jawa who can basically construct everything – good enough to ignore the smell.
    [ ] Chase Antilles, a human from Corellia who is a known test pilot

    [ ] Get new Equipment for your Department
    -[ ] A new simulator for …
    --[ ] Performance tests (-1 Flaw for own Parts in Frame, Engine, Cockpit)
    --[ ] Defensive tests (-1 Flaw for Weapons, SP-Compartments such as shields)
    -[ ] A small group of droids for …
    --[ ] Research (+1 State for each rolled 6 on own Parts)
    --[ ] Overall assistance (+1 Stress limit)
     
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] "Pinagg should do it. He is an expert in cost reduction, I think he can push the production cost down a bit."

    [X] Get new Equipment for your Department
    -[X] A new simulator for …
    --[X] Performance tests (-1 Flaw for own Parts in Frame, Engine, Cockpit)
     
    [X] "Shen should do it. He is young and wishes to prove the trust I put into him was justified."
    [X] Get new Equipment for your Department
    -[X] A new simulator for …
    --[X] Performance tests (-1 Flaw for own Parts in Frame, Engine, Cockpit)
     
    [X] "Shen should do it. He is young and wishes to prove the trust I put into him was justified."
    [X] Get new Equipment for your Department
    -[X] A new simulator for …
    --[X] Performance tests (-1 Flaw for own Parts in Frame, Engine, Cockpit)
     
    [X] "Pinagg should do it. He is an expert in cost reduction, I think he can push the production cost down a bit."
    [X] Get new Equipment for your Department
    -[X] A new simulator for …
    --[X] Performance tests (-1 Flaw for own Parts in Frame, Engine, Cockpit)

    Performance test has known results and will help in areas we got hurt bad last time.
     
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