Shit, Rihaku wants us to pick a side.
[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance
[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
I'm pretty sure he just wants to do his usual 'Approval votes means half vote for the two choices', but with 83 voters math is nontrivial
Thanatanos
PvP Lover, Assasin Player
[x] Renaissance Woman
[X] Renaissance Woman
I think I'm going to vote for this one.
Because, it has the most powerful method of Doom of the Tyrant Mitigation -- judo. That is to say, avoidance. Can't be hit with the Tyrant Curse if you aren't forced to be the one who has to be the one doing diplomacy between star nations and Voyaging Realms civilizations, can you?
This is, in short, a good way to avoid a lot of unnecessary bloodshed and combat when it comes to the Human Sphere later on. Whenever it comes to diplomacy or negotiation? We can avoid having a really bad, honest to goodness Cursed, negotiator; and instead have a supernally good negotiator.
The amount of troubles this can save us is immense. And, of course, because this is Social (and Mental) prowess... it won't be so easily outscaled or obviated by Hunger. Because he's kind of crippled in the negotiation and compromise arena, so he simply can't do it as well.
So, yeah... This is a path that can avoid a lot of Doom of the Tyrant Procs. By simply avoiding the situation. That sort of indirect mitigation-by-avoidance, mitigation by delegation, is really good in my eyes.
Because just being powerful enough to crush everybody? The idea that you can just outscale and outlevel everybody, and then win all the fights and surely people will just Not Fight? No. That won't make everybody surrender and give up. People will still resist. They'll just be crushed and lose. (And if they have some Hidden Boss surprises and Godzilla Thresholds? Well, they'll be far more willing to cross the Godzilla Threshold when facing a terrifyingly powerful opponent and Tyrant.) And a lot of people, worlds, and perhaps eventually even rebellions, will be crushed because of that. And we'll semi-directly or semi-indirectly bear the guilt for that -- because we just couldn't avoid it. But this way, we can avoid it.
I think I'm going to vote for this one.
Because, it has the most powerful method of Doom of the Tyrant Mitigation -- judo. That is to say, avoidance. Can't be hit with the Tyrant Curse if you aren't forced to be the one who has to be the one doing diplomacy between star nations and Voyaging Realms civilizations, can you?
This is, in short, a good way to avoid a lot of unnecessary bloodshed and combat when it comes to the Human Sphere later on. Whenever it comes to diplomacy or negotiation? We can avoid having a really bad, honest to goodness Cursed, negotiator; and instead have a supernally good negotiator.
The amount of troubles this can save us is immense. And, of course, because this is Social (and Mental) prowess... it won't be so easily outscaled or obviated by Hunger. Because he's kind of crippled in the negotiation and compromise arena, so he simply can't do it as well.
So, yeah... This is a path that can avoid a lot of Doom of the Tyrant Procs. By simply avoiding the situation. That sort of indirect mitigation-by-avoidance, mitigation by delegation, is really good in my eyes.
Because just being powerful enough to crush everybody? The idea that you can just outscale and outlevel everybody, and then win all the fights and surely people will just Not Fight? No. That won't make everybody surrender and give up. People will still resist. They'll just be crushed and lose. (And if they have some Hidden Boss surprises and Godzilla Thresholds? Well, they'll be far more willing to cross the Godzilla Threshold when facing a terrifyingly powerful opponent and Tyrant.) And a lot of people, worlds, and perhaps eventually even rebellions, will be crushed because of that. And we'll semi-directly or semi-indirectly bear the guilt for that -- because we just couldn't avoid it. But this way, we can avoid it.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Well, totaled up the vote-trading offers.
So on the ADS side:
We have @Zampano with 2k words backing up any Evening Sky choice, if ADS wins. @Duquette7 two markers no veto for ADS (clarification: even if ADS loses). @DkArthas with 3 markers no veto for ADS.
On the "Anything but ADS side" we have:
@Redshirt Army with 2 markers no veto if ADS does not win. @BrainInAJar with 5 markers, apparently because it's funny.
For Crimson Flare (which can be combined with the above) we have:
@Byzantine 1 marker no veto.
Anyway, Crimson Flare has come out a little ahead, but not by much. The offers are actually pretty even if you count stuff aside from the number of votes. I am, however, deciding that I'm going for the Crimson Flare/non-ADS offer.
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
@Redshirt Army @BrainInAJar @Byzantine I'm taking your offers.
Ultimately, what's making the decision for me is Crimson Flare allowing us to potentially take a 7-Arete pick after Avecarn, which with called-in markers could translate into a mage-pick. I, uh, may be betting everything on Gardener's Hallow or Rune King reappearing, I was really bummed about GH losing the first and second times and Rune King encourages Mage-Building in general. There's also possibly Philosopher's Wreath, Azure Moon, or something new.
So on the ADS side:
We have @Zampano with 2k words backing up any Evening Sky choice, if ADS wins. @Duquette7 two markers no veto for ADS (clarification: even if ADS loses). @DkArthas with 3 markers no veto for ADS.
On the "Anything but ADS side" we have:
@Redshirt Army with 2 markers no veto if ADS does not win. @BrainInAJar with 5 markers, apparently because it's funny.
For Crimson Flare (which can be combined with the above) we have:
@Byzantine 1 marker no veto.
Anyway, Crimson Flare has come out a little ahead, but not by much. The offers are actually pretty even if you count stuff aside from the number of votes. I am, however, deciding that I'm going for the Crimson Flare/non-ADS offer.
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
@Redshirt Army @BrainInAJar @Byzantine I'm taking your offers.
Ultimately, what's making the decision for me is Crimson Flare allowing us to potentially take a 7-Arete pick after Avecarn, which with called-in markers could translate into a mage-pick. I, uh, may be betting everything on Gardener's Hallow or Rune King reappearing, I was really bummed about GH losing the first and second times and Rune King encourages Mage-Building in general. There's also possibly Philosopher's Wreath, Azure Moon, or something new.
It also mitigates the Apocryphal, which is the reason why we are in the temple in the first place; an Apo proc'ed at unfortunate time after an unfortunate choice, and people felt forced to scramble desperately for the path that grants maximum power in the shortest amount of time.
Apocryphal is about to proc in a couple of days, IIRC. I'd rather mitigate the risks of circumstances forcing us into another situation like this. 20% total we'll have with Gisena's RW is actually a pretty solid bite of mitigation cake, and blurb mentions that it'll only get better with time.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Grumbles about people changing their vote before I finished.
@Rihaku: Bottom of last page has a list. I'll update it here, I guess.
@Rihaku: Bottom of last page has a list. I'll update it here, I guess.
- [x] Renaissance Woman
33 people have voted- Redshirt Army Not
- ReaderOfFate Not
- Kirbstomp Not
- Tyrant_Rayne Not
- Box Lunch Not
- TwistedJester Not
- Sara Not
- Prospalz Not
- Mannan Not
- firestorm440 Not
- kalugin Not
- Paloneia Not
- Aabcehmu Not
- Cariyaga Not
- George Not
- Fumbles Not
- LordOfMurder Not
- dodler Not
- Atlasofremembran Not
- veekie Not
- Sickul Not
- BrainInAJar Not
- Hirorubie Not
- Pechum Not
- ClawClawBite Not
- Sigil Not
- Thanatanos Not
- Garlak Not
- That-Random-Guy With Ring
- Harried With Ring
- noliar With Ring
- formalAI With Stance
- Maragas Everything
- [X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
32 people have voted- Talace Not
- Simon_Jester Not
- Zfglx Not
- Projectile Not
- Genesys Not
- Cerillian Not
- beowolf Not
- Thomasfoolery Not
- Byzantine Not
- Enohthree Not
- SpectatingRaven Not
- agumentic Not
- Taka Not
- Shard Not
- ScalesLikeCinder Not
- Dark Abstraction Not
- lava beard of sorrow Not
- Rotekian Not
- TooSlow Not
- PurposefulZephyr Not
- Dieb Not
- HoratioVonBecker Not
- Unelemental Not
- Strange9 Not
- Robotninja Not
- ImperatorV Not
- That-Random-Guy With Renaissance
- Harried With Renaissance
- noliar With Renaissance
- Kurowari With Stance
- Crimson Moon With Stance
- Maragas Everything
- [X] Forebear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance
29 people have voted- Duquette7 Not
- runeblue360 Not
- Dark Lord Bob Not
- evtd Not
- Xalvitor Not
- Zampano Not
- Thanatanos Not
- Windlass Not
- Avoozl Not
- Orm Embar Not
- Priest Not
- JKLDiamond Not
- vali Not
- skaro Not
- Eredhel Not
- Savonarola Not
- Jack-o'-Lantern Not
- Terribleangel Not
- Conjured Blade Not
- Gerrou Not
- Wolfy Not
- Valkhir Not
- Elero Not
- Sharkey_smt Not
- DkArthas Not
- Kurowari With Ring
- Crimson Moon With Ring
- formalAI With Renaissance
- Maragas Everything
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Duquette7
I am Fire, and I am Rain
One problem with that, and why I dislike Flare the most, one of the things the ring voters want to do with their ring options is use all that power to heal Hunger, including his eye, so no Rune King, ever.
tea time
although sadly hunger prefers coffee
although sadly hunger prefers coffee
I changed that to Stance only.
Edit: Ninjaed and sorry.
Rihaku
The Internet
Hunger talks about exactly this situation in an earlier update... it's not quite so cut and dry. Unless she gets everything Hunger wants then there's still always a chance of Tyrant proc, so you can't rely on negotiation or diplomacy as your only tactics all the time.
We can just sacrifice the newly-healed eye.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
I didn't include it in the offer, but I think that tit-for-tat game theory means I have to invest 200K words in preventing the next maeg vote from winning? o.0
jk jk
For future reference, does this mean you consider Blood Ring upgrades to qualify as a magic system now?
Deserves more than a like. I feel exactly the same about Rihaku's dialogue. You have some great ideas about Hunger and Gisena's impact on the story, really quite a lot of good lines of your own. Blah blah blah I like it a lot.
[9] Straight to HQ: "I need to head back, right away."
[9] Why would you need to name it...?
Keep your head in the game, kid! I've been enjoying the lackadaisical attitude of his benefactor. Good stuff, Taka. I see his spear as a tool which is a part of him, and it's curious to name one's own arm.
I'm actually wavering on Gisena after I've read arguments. I was, once upon a time, moved to argue for safety and caution, even in the predecessor of this very vote! So I wonder, am I being reckless in spending the effort of the thread on Gisena's evolution? How much does it help us, as compared to the other two options? What spends our Arete best? How much danger is Hunger in, how much risk does the rest of the party face?
I'm not absolutely sure about the answer to any of these questions. I do know that in terms of Hunger's absolute power, Sword is king. For safety, I should vote sword.
In the long-term, I'm not sure whether Crimson or Gisena's choice is superior. I'm sure that Crimson pays off more if we go for the ruling ring, but that's two EFB vs one, hardly a surprise. In terms of safety, Gisena beats the ring through her capacity to avoid combat.
I started this post before work, so I'm sure I have a lot to catch up on, but for now I'm sticking with my initial vote.
I feel as if the vehemence in this particular vote is powered by history, specifically the accumulation of grudges and ill will created by losing contentious votes with similar themes. Participants feel that their choices and desires are under attack by an opposed faction. That's actually correct, we have several distinct voting blocks who are pretty strongly opposed in their desires. It's understandable that we turn against one another when trying to allocate the scarce resource of Arete and Picks, but I urge everyone to remember that we are in this together. Argue, debate, meme at one another, that's half the fun of this quest format! Do not, however mistake your fellow questers for the enemy. This is good old-fashioned players vs GM. (Not in the sense that Rihaku is malevolent, but rather he provides the challenges we willingly pit ourselves against) It's a game we're playing. It says a lot that we get so easily invested, but it is intended to be fun.
Yes, our choices matter, we can make wrong calls.
Yes, inertia is real, and the direction of the quest can be influenced by runaway success in a particular aesthetic.
No, none of these options are a net loss.
No, Rihaku will never provide us with a deceptive trap-option *out of character*.
So, please, try to be cool to each other.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Would you be willing to accept an agreement to, in let's say 3 hours, both vote for whichever non-renaissance woman option has more votes? I'd prefer to include Omake power, but not quite sure how.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I'm really not sure why you keep making this assumption.
My assumption is we end up with both options being even stronger if they don't have to contend with a cursed wound.
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Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Counterpoint: The polarization that comes from various people making ultimatums about what they'll do should their vote lose is a rich mine of
To clarify: I do not actually endorse picking fights for Arete - our fellow questers all have feelings and are people behind their laptops. I just think it's hilarious that a pure optimizer might decide that provoking DRAMA is a good way to make a free online choose-your-own-adventure turn out a little differently.
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Rihaku
The Internet
We're very close to a three-way tie, especially factoring in approval votes... I think we're now at the stage where approval voters should decide on which on the two options they think can prevail and commit! If necessary I'll eliminate the weakest choice after + reviewing arguments.
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
With no further comment, because this is getting rather more argumentative than I have the patience for right now.
With no further comment, because this is getting rather more argumentative than I have the patience for right now.
- Location
- USA
All defeating stance is interesting, though what kind of upgrade loses some key facets of it's prereqs? I would guess that we could then get Foe Defeating and trade for a mega stone and evolve our stance to the highest level. Also I'm imagining that Hunger has to stand in a specific way while using them that is just ridiculous.
Flare looks better the more I see it. I'm actually not sure how much it helps for primacy, Azure ring submits but it doesn't have a ringbearer anyway so it doesn't really do anything to stop a powerful Ringbearer coming in and messing things up. It would let us give the Azure ring to an ally without any worried about them supplanting us though.
Ren Woman still looks good to me. Offers a lot of power and potential to Gisena which should help out Hunger. Interesting that it doesn't increase her Int though.
Flare looks better the more I see it. I'm actually not sure how much it helps for primacy, Azure ring submits but it doesn't have a ringbearer anyway so it doesn't really do anything to stop a powerful Ringbearer coming in and messing things up. It would let us give the Azure ring to an ally without any worried about them supplanting us though.
Ren Woman still looks good to me. Offers a lot of power and potential to Gisena which should help out Hunger. Interesting that it doesn't increase her Int though.
That's a rather shortsighted strategy, because it leads to people burning out and leaving the quest, which means they won't generate Arete any further. Since I'd like this quest to last a while, I am rather against such shortsightedness even from a pure Arete-generating point.
- Location
- Brazil
If this wins, i have a proposal. Why not bank these votes for the eventual Evening Sky vote? How much do you want Total Eclipse?
I mean, if we aren't in immediate need to spend arete that is.
So what are you saying is that this is short term power vs long term potential?
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Ah. If it helps, I will edit in some smilies in to my post to make clear that I do not endorse picking fights to temporarily boost thread participation.