Yeah, and we becoming one man army with ADS is conveniently ignored.

Once again it is not being ignored. In fact I have yet to see anyone arguing against it who does not acknowledge its power. However, these people, myself included, do not feel the need to jump at such and see several reasons not to both mechanically and narratively.

I for one am aiming for the trinity special advancement with one EFB on each artifact, which taking ADS specifically locks using of. I am voting crimson flare because of this and because I like what it gives us both right away and later (despite the need to slice the problems In front of us to get it). Others seem to be voting Gisena because not only is it a pretty bonkers combination of decent immediate power and huge potential, but it does not lock us out of trinity.

Just because people do not agree with your position it does not mean they are blind to it.
 
Last edited:
If we are doing a bidding war; 5 votes if you don't vote for ADS.
The power of five of your votes over time is smaller than five simultaneous votes from assorted other posters because voting power is heavily diluted when spread out over time. The Evening Sky votes need one solid concerted push, rather than a trickle of influence spread over 5 updates.
 
Basically, the situation for this vote.
mocking and dismissing the people voting against you will never convince them to switch.
I haven't seen many arguments for how Gisena Quest is going to help the POV character, Hunger, get more magic.
Her higher mental stats and deeper understanding of findross will help us develop Edeldross Graces. Once we have several of those developed, I expect to be offered advancements or Arete options that further our breadth of capability with it.
 
The only option that explicity trivializes the temple is the all-defeating stance. Rihaku has also been oddly silent on the safety of reinascensse woman, i wonder why.
 
I don't know about you guys; but I'm doing it because giving that much power to the Lord of the Mage-options @ImperatorV is funny.

Renaissance Woman's not the only option that provides mitigation! Baked into All-Defeating is a half-stage of mitigation against all Curses from its prerequisite; shaving even an additional 5% off the Apocryphal Curse a lot of long-term safety. It also paradoxically boosts our teamwork with Gisena. No need to mess around with Edeldross shields when our Blade-granted boons are totally immune to nullification! Bone thrown to the Gisena Gang aside, the best thing about ADS is also the simplest: it's synergistic.

It's really synergistic, Cut Through converts +5 Willpower to +5 Might and Agility on top of the +5 Might & Agility All-Defeating already gives. All stats also entails +5 intellect, absolutely dwarfing what we got from King of Thieves, making All-Defeating Stance the literal big-brain option. But the fun doesn't stop there: wisdom, charisma, manipulation, protection, luck? All boosted by five! Even Uttermost's debuff can't rain on that parade. As the cherry on top, our enormously improved Cha & Man are doubled against weaker adversaries, who are made innately aware that the odds are not in their favor. If we take Vigor Incarnate, Cha's added to Prot; Fierce Quickening's capstone'll likely do something similar. Also all of these stats are boosted 30% by Edeldross. Jesus wept, look at all these feedback loops. What are we even supposed to do with this much synergy?!

Strength's generally inferior to agility when it comes to combat, but since we took Zweihander the Power of Ruin scales based on it... and now it's multiplied by 5 and applied automatically against anything that targets us. To shamelessly steal Rihaku's argument, consider the implications for Stranglethorn, which doubles our strength! There's been interest in taking it as our second Defining Advancement since Stranglethorn's lone downside is a moot point now that doubling Willpower also buffs Might & Agi. We'd get a cumulative +50% increase to future Rank gains, letting us shore up the only weak spot in the All-Defeating build. Not that it's much of one, since the Power of Ruin (now multiplied five-fold and universally applicable, need I remind you) works in tandem with our Pressure to nerf everything.

Speaking of Rank, it's a straight shot from the All-Defeating Stance to Once and Future, which can be purchased at any spending point and is already slightly discounted. The DEEP LORE aside, taking that grants us a 3-EFB Special Advancement, which if Trinity's anything to go by will be absurd. Concerns about echoing the Forebear's brutality are overplayed, I think, given the traits Hunger's exhibited so far and his exceptional willpower. If we want to go non-lethal, to spare worthy enemies on the field of battle, that's easily within our grasp. What is Edeldross for, if not mercy and buffing? Power of this magnitude opens doors, it doesn't close them.

If Infiltration stole a march on you because you were busy with other affairs and you wanted to wreck the place, this is your moment. Don't let the Self-Defeating Stance rob us of a virtually assured victory. After scraping by so many fights as a wraith, we deserve a win. Vengeance + Scepter was compared to playing Odyssial during the Primordial War, that's what convinced me to ditch Dread but Dreaming. What more fitting way to fulfill the promise of that description than by tearing down the Temple of the False Moon with the Forebear's Blade in hand?
As always, I must enumerate my reasons against A-DS:

The Curse Mitigation on Renaissance Woman is just better; flat out.

All these combat buffs are indeed nice; but presuppose that a pure martial resolution to the Temple would be the best is unwise; there may be many regrets and voting salt should we rely merely on the provenance of pure power. Both Flare and Woman at least partially addresses this; while All-Defeating stance is ultimately something linear. A satisfying resolution and a quick one are often opposed; we may come to regret what we do here, both IC and OCC.

And finally, and the biggest reason; I don't want to be defined by being a shadow of the Forebear, which is what the 3bears advancement ultimately makes us. Mental Contamination need not go into it; I simply don't want to give even more narrative space for the Forebear and I wish for Hunger to develop his own panoply. I want to master the Ring and The Evening Sky, not just be defined by what some old dude did eons ago. Taking somewhat after him is fine but I'd prefer to trail our own path, y'know?
The only option that explicity trivializes the temple is the all-defeating stance. Rihaku has also been oddly silent on the safety of reinascensse woman, i wonder why.
You see, that's how you know it's safe; since it's ahead that would an incredible target for Devil's Advocacy. That he just kept saying Renaissance Woman doesn't have that much value compared to the other options is telling.
 
mocking and dismissing the people voting against you will never convince them to switch.
we are not going to meet an opponent in the Temple who can't be suppressed by True Nullity
Hmm..
In the middle Temple we met one thrust man with power to conceptually never miss and always hit his target. For the question that I posed your answer was - we will not meet such an opponent.
Okay, I say that we will meet an opponent that cannot be suppressed. What now? Dismiss the argument?

Also I have voted for Ring and ADS both so I see both aproaches.
 
Last edited:
The only option that explicity trivializes the temple is the all-defeating stance. Rihaku has also been oddly silent on the safety of reinascensse woman, i wonder why.
probably because it says explicitly in the option that our infiltration will succeed, so we will have agency with which to choose our encounters and dictate our risks?
 
I mean, @ImperatorV , i think you are aware that as long as something isn't suicidal, i will support mage builds!

On more arguments, ADS gives lots of power, and zero utility. A magical system with versatile utlity would be ideal, and while Pillars has great utility, it's not very versatile, just doing one utility thing very well.

On the other hand, Crimson Ring gives less immediate powers, and means that we are unlikely to get utility magic since that would be somewhat dangerous.
 
Last edited:
Question @Rihaku. Does Renaissance Woman's Curse mitigation stack with the mitigation from Magic-Defeating Stance?
Magic-Defeating Stance - 7 Arete: A Martial Stance of the Forebear. Grants high-grade defensive effect nullification against all hostile effects of supernatural origin, and quintuples the power of Ruin for purposes of cutting through enemy magics. Mitigate all Curses an additional half step beyond the first. This Stance is permanently active until switched for another [Type]-Defeating Stance. One of the pre-requisites for All-Defeating Stance. You may have [Rank/2, rounded down] Stances active at one time.
*True Nullity: Gisena applies the effects of Grand Nullification upon all of Hunger's Curses; her nullity strikes with absolute force. This may improve over time.
If people get Renaissance Woman now, and pick up Magic-Defeating Stance later, would the Curse Mitigation between the two stack?

Magic-Defeating does say that it mitigates all curses another half-step beyond the first; that could mean that it only provides mitigation to that step, but it sounded to me like it was saying "If you've already mitigated the Curses by a step or two or even three steps... Then Magic-Defeating will still let you go another half-step."

Which, if so, would be incredibly cool. How much Curse mitigation is 2.5 Steps?
 
At this point I feel like everyone is just reiterating their arguments over and over again and everyone is largely entrenched, but the activity does generate Arete so we still have to spin the wheel.

Anyway, my argument:

What was the reasoning for Infiltration in the first place? Because All Defeating Stance and Crimson Flare still both lead to combat and bloodshed.

With Rennaisance Woman we could essentially do what we want while getting a full knowledge of what the Inner Temple civ is actually like.

And Gisena was chosen as a Lesser Remittance for a reason. She is an avid socialite and technologist and her nullity is a broad ability that does well against all supernatural effects with her capability of mitigating curses being incredibly desirable.

Rennaissance woman enhances all three aspects of her. A major concern for me through the quest is that Gisena is getting less and less relevant as Hunger's progression is trivializing her.

We are maximizing the use of our other two Remittences because they are directly linked to Hunger's Progression.

This does well to ensure that we maximize our possible use from her.

When think of combat remember that Gisena will also be fighting with us and with True Nullity we would have a force of absolute Nullity aiding us. Remember how many times that Nullity saved us early in the quest!
 
What happens if you stack ruling ring on top of PW(Surgecrafting)+ADS+Whatever hunger procs benefiting Surgecrafting we can get?

That would probably shift our asymptote further up and the all stats singularity would be good prep for primacy contests.
 
Sudden yet inevitable etc

[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance

I was thinking about this a lot; unlike most people I actually like all options so whatever is fine. Now, there is this hilariously powerful build that would give us ton of Rank and stuff, but it does cut a bit too close to what Nameless was doing. On the other hand, replicating Forebear stacking stats in ever increasing ways could be Hunger's own thing. Focusing on Ruin sounds fine too.

This build sort of locks us out of Rank(making King Stands Alone a must) and has us focus on Blade, but whatcha gonna do. We do have to specialize in some way.
 
I don't know about you guys; but I'm doing it because giving that much power to the Lord of the Mage-options @ImperatorV is funny.

This made me laugh out loud and also made my day. So thanks for that.

Anyway, in the interest of keeping things from getting out of hand (if they haven't already), I'm going to be cutting off the bidding here, it's been nearly two hours anyway. I'll total up all the combined offers from before this post and decide from what those are.
 
Also think of the possibilities. I know a lot of people want to explore Graces and sorceries but that would take time opportunity that could be used developing Praxis, Surgecraft, and other magics that we find and develop.

With Rennaisance Woman Gisena would have the ability and the intelligence that would allow her to do the research she has and simply share it with Hunger. This would vastly accelerate development in Findross and Edeldross.

And not just magic but technology too considering she will definitely bring her increased intelligence onto that field and probably develop graces that would help with that as well.

One of her major regrets is that most of her magic is based on nullity despite her own fascination with the supernatural and fantastic. True Quintessence removes that, allowing her to develop graces with other aspects!


Focusing all power-ups and growth on Hunger is all well and good but there is something to be said about having two powerful individuals to handle the myriad problems we face rather than a single overwhelming one. Especially with Tyrant hamstringing our attempts at social.
 
  1. [X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
    33 people have voted
    1. Talace Not
    2. Simon_Jester Not
    3. Zfglx Not
    4. Projectile Not
    5. Genesys Not
    6. Cerillian Not
    7. beowolf Not
    8. Thomasfoolery Not
    9. Byzantine Not
    10. Enohthree Not
    11. SpectatingRaven Not
    12. agumentic Not
    13. Taka Not
    14. Shard Not
    15. ScalesLikeCinder Not
    16. Dark Abstraction Not
    17. lava beard of sorrow Not
    18. Rotekian Not
    19. TooSlow Not
    20. PurposefulZephyr Not
    21. Dieb Not
    22. HoratioVonBecker Not
    23. Unelemental Not
    24. Strange9 Not
    25. Robotninja Not
    26. That-Random-Guy With Renaissance
    27. Harried With Renaissance
    28. noliar With Renaissance
    29. Kurowari With Stance
    30. Sharkey_smt With Stance
    31. DkArthas With Stance
    32. Crimson Moon With Stance
    33. Maragas Everything
  2. [x] Renaissance Woman
    31 people have voted
    1. Redshirt Army Not
    2. ReaderOfFate Not
    3. Kirbstomp Not
    4. Tyrant_Rayne Not
    5. Box Lunch Not
    6. TwistedJester Not
    7. Sara Not
    8. Prospalz Not
    9. Mannan Not
    10. firestorm440 Not
    11. kalugin Not
    12. Paloneia Not
    13. Aabcehmu Not
    14. Cariyaga Not
    15. George Not
    16. Fumbles Not
    17. LordOfMurder Not
    18. dodler Not
    19. Atlasofremembran Not
    20. veekie Not
    21. Sickul Not
    22. BrainInAJar Not
    23. Hirorubie Not
    24. Pechum Not
    25. ClawClawBite Not
    26. Sigil Not
    27. That-Random-Guy With Ring
    28. Harried With Ring
    29. noliar With Ring
    30. formalAI With Stance
    31. Maragas Everything
  3. [X] Forebear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance
    29 people have voted
    1. Duquette7 Not
    2. runeblue360 Not
    3. Dark Lord Bob Not
    4. evtd Not
    5. Xalvitor Not
    6. Zampano Not
    7. Thanatanos Not
    8. Windlass Not
    9. Avoozl Not
    10. Orm Embar Not
    11. Priest Not
    12. JKLDiamond Not
    13. vali Not
    14. skaro Not
    15. Eredhel Not
    16. Savonarola Not
    17. Jack-o'-Lantern Not
    18. Terribleangel Not
    19. Conjured Blade Not
    20. Gerrou Not
    21. Wolfy Not
    22. Valkhir Not
    23. Elero Not
    24. Kurowari With Ring
    25. Sharkey_smt With Ring
    26. DkArthas With Ring
    27. Crimson Moon With Ring
    28. formalAI With Renaissance
    29. Maragas Everything
 
Last edited:
Back
Top