And now for the myriad virtues of the All-Defeating Stance:

Renaissance Woman's not the only option that provides mitigation! Baked into All-Defeating is a half-stage of mitigation against all Curses from its prerequisite; shaving even an additional 5% off the Apocryphal Curse a lot of long-term safety. It also paradoxically boosts our teamwork with Gisena. No need to mess around with Edeldross shields when our Blade-granted boons are totally immune to nullification! Bone thrown to the Gisena Gang aside, the best thing about ADS is also the simplest: it's synergistic.

It's really synergistic, Cut Through converts +5 Willpower to +5 Might and Agility on top of the +5 Might & Agility All-Defeating already gives. All stats also entails +5 intellect, absolutely dwarfing what we got from King of Thieves, making All-Defeating Stance the literal big-brain option. But the fun doesn't stop there: wisdom, charisma, manipulation, protection, luck? All boosted by five! Even Uttermost's debuff can't rain on that parade. As the cherry on top, our enormously improved Cha & Man are doubled against weaker adversaries, who are made innately aware that the odds are not in their favor. If we take Vigor Incarnate, Cha's added to Prot; Fierce Quickening's capstone'll likely do something similar. Also all of these stats are boosted 30% by Edeldross. Jesus wept, look at all these feedback loops. What are we even supposed to do with this much synergy?!

Strength's generally inferior to agility when it comes to combat, but since we took Zweihander the Power of Ruin scales based on it... and now it's multiplied by 5 and applied automatically against anything that targets us. To shamelessly steal Rihaku's argument, consider the implications for Stranglethorn, which doubles our strength! There's been interest in taking it as our second Defining Advancement since Stranglethorn's lone downside is a moot point now that doubling Willpower also buffs Might & Agi. We'd get a cumulative +50% increase to future Rank gains, letting us shore up the only weak spot in the All-Defeating build. Not that it's much of one, since the Power of Ruin (now multiplied five-fold and universally applicable, need I remind you) works in tandem with our Pressure to nerf everything.

Speaking of Rank, it's a straight shot from the All-Defeating Stance to Once and Future, which can be purchased at any spending point and is already slightly discounted. The DEEP LORE aside, taking that grants us a 3-EFB Special Advancement, which if Trinity's anything to go by will be absurd. Concerns about echoing the Forebear's brutality are overplayed, I think, given the traits Hunger's exhibited so far and his exceptional willpower. If we want to go non-lethal, to spare worthy enemies on the field of battle, that's easily within our grasp. What is Edeldross for, if not mercy and buffing? Power of this magnitude opens doors, it doesn't close them.

If Infiltration stole a march on you because you were busy with other affairs and you wanted to wreck the place, this is your moment. Don't let the Self-Defeating Stance rob us of a virtually assured victory. After scraping by so many fights as a wraith, we deserve a win. Vengeance + Scepter was compared to playing Odyssial during the Primordial War, that's what convinced me to ditch Dread but Dreaming. What more fitting way to fulfill the promise of that description than by tearing down the Temple of the False Moon with the Forebear's Blade in hand?
 
As such, we'll do it this way: I'm selling my vote for this update. If anyone's interested, make me an offer, I'll take the best offer that's on the table in about two hours or so. Assuming I get any, I'm not sure what I'll do if I don't. Dice roll maybe.

Well, I'll throw two markers into the ring, no veto, if you'll vote for ADS now.
 
It was a joke about the argument for 'social' - Gisena is so beautiful that world itself bends backwards to accomodate her, even when it does not make sense.
Which is a fair thing to joke about, actually. Of course, it deserves the same metric for humor that Cut Through gets...
For the meaning of Mary sue - sheesh, what forums have you been visiting? Anyone who thinks that is disgusting. No offense meant about the Mary sue.
Wasn't on forums, actually - I'm thinking of the anti-Rey crowd, and the unfortunate beginning to Protectors of the Plot Continuum - but honestly, the people I've seen doing it have never come across as "seriously believing women are subhuman" so much as "it seems socially expected to rag on this, so of course I'm going to join the dogpile".

So on the one hand it's not usually that bad, but on the other hand it's definitely something to be careful with.
Serious question to Gisena voters. If she has to fight against a physically superior opponent that cannot be suppressed with nulity, what is plan?
Her offense sucks, she is not a tank and her physically she is not the strongest/fastest in the Temple. She cannot regenerate in combat as we do and she does not have blood buffs/debuffs.
I think we can regenerate her, actually, which should make her an effective off-tank. Plus, if she's forced to fight someone with better stats than her and who's immune to her nullification, that probably means she's gotten in a fistfight with a high-grade Prototype Armor. Which is honestly something All-Defeating Stance might not be able to solve.
 
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Basically, the situation for this vote.

I'll be frank, I don't care for your arguments and find them needlessly dismissive of other positions.

ADS is great, no one is saying it is not, but people do have other considerations. Among the are the trinity advancement that promises significant gains and interesting options and while there is sure to be something for three blade EFBs or equivalent value it is unlikely to have some of the more interesting options like combining all our artifacts into one freeing up two artifact slots. I would rather not gamble for that even as good as ADS is.

Also as much synergy as it has with many different priorities of various groups it primarily goes well with taking more blade stuff and makes a third blade EFB a priority which is kind of a deal breaker for me as I am Generally mor interested in the ones from other artifacts. Then there is the fact that most of the Arete generate was done specifically for getting flare and it would be very disappointing if it got co-opted by blade/stats/not dying, particularly when we are unlikely to die what ever we pick.

There are upsides to all of the options before us, just because one is the most immediately powerful does not mean we have to take it and inevitably co-opt all our planning in favor of the path that it sets for us. Not dying has gotten plenty of victories and not voting for it is not necessarily a vote for dying. I want crimson flare because it is cool and puts us on a more interesting path than solving everything with our sword.

Just because it seems aimless to you does not make it so, there are several plans being discussed and all seem to have merit for me, I just do not like where I believe we will end up with ADS.
 
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I can't seem to decide on this vote. Any one of the options could lead towards mage builds or away from them in the future. I'm disfavoring ADS a little because of that muscle wizard comment, but not enough to put it significantly behind the others. For once in this quest, I can't figure out what I should argue for.

As such, we'll do it this way: I'm selling my vote for this update. If anyone's interested, make me an offer, I'll take the best offer that's on the table in about two hours or so. Assuming I get any, I'm not sure what I'll do if I don't. Dice roll maybe.

If you vote for a non-ADS choice, and a non-ADS choice wins, I'll give you two votes, no veto.
 
One more thing about the intelligence explosion I forgot about. The progress improvements from getting Hunger Ring procs with surgecrafting are probably unfathomable levels of ludicrousness if we get PW(Surgecrafting)+ADS. 1300 minimum effectiveness boost further improved by whatever hunger procs for it we can get.
 
Well, it's been about an hour and I have one offer, from Zampano for All-Defeating Stance.

In other news, arguments. The argument I've found most persuasive for ADS thus far is that it has high synergy with Philosopher's Wreath. The argument I've found most persuasive for Crimson Flare is that it leaves us enough Arete to potentially purchase a 7-Arete choice after we beat Avecarn, which could allow something like Dreadnought's Bearing, or maybe Gardener's Hallow. Honestly that line of thought is pretty compelling, I doubt ADS or Gisena Quest would get enough Arete for a 7-cost by the time we beat Avecarn, and while I think Gardener's Hallow is a remote dream even a remote possibility is very enticing. Rune King is more possible and is very likable. I haven't seen many arguments for how Gisena Quest is going to help the POV character, Hunger, get more magic. The arguments mostly seem to be "Gisena gets total eclipse," but I don't care what Gisena gets, I care what the POV character gets.

...Additionally, something that concerns me regarding ADS is if we beat Avecarn with it, Stranglethorn may be an option, which synergizes heavily with ADS. This is a bad thing because Stranglethorn may be competing with a mage choice, and increasing the value of Stranglethorn is therefore bad. OTOH Stranglethorn doesn't cost Arete, so maybe allowing it to scoop up the picks and then using the Arete saved on magic may work.

EDIT: And two new offers while I'm writing this post? OK, have to re-evaluate.
 
I'll be frank, I don't care for your arguments and find them needlessly dismissive of other positions.
Ambush - social
Astral beasts - social
Automatic defenses - social????

In several hours I expect the arguments to get even more ridiculous
Falling meteor - social
Explosion - social
Giant Robot - social
Hair loss - social
Proving NP=P - social
Curing cancer - social
Doom proc - social
Yes, I am absolutely dismissive of the arguments for Gisena because it has a lot of issues. Lack of offense, stats not being that top tier (modestly above ours) and people thinking social is some god stat that can solve everything, even when it is absolutely insane to think that way (parodied in my own quote). People ignoring that ADS offers curse mitigation and that True Quintessence needs time to come online.
 
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Yes, I am absolutely dismissive of the arguments for Gisena because it has a lot of issues. Lack of offense, stats not being that top tier (modestly above ours) and people thinking social is some god stat that can solve everything, even when it is absolutely insane to think that way (parodied in my own quote)
It is notable that the blurb literally says it trivializes the temple. So yeah, it is a kind of god stat.

Well, it's been about an hour and I have one offer, from Zampano for All-Defeating Stance.
I'll add a vote from me with no veto for Crimson on top of other offers.
 
I forgot about the recursive buffing. PW also Buffs Gisena and Letrezia's magical development, improving their research and their ability to buff us. So much recursion.
 
It is notable that the blurb literally says it trivializes the temple. So yeah, it is a kind of god stat.

That's not what it says. What it says, very specifically, is that it trivialises the infiltration of the Inner Temple. Nothing less, nothing more. It doesn't say we'll be able to overcome the defenses within or create a socially focused route to rescue the ring or to escape afterwards. Given that, describing it as "trivialising the temple" is pretty inaccurate.
 
One more thing about the intelligence explosion I forgot about. The progress improvements from getting Hunger Ring procs with surgecrafting are probably unfathomable levels of ludicrousness if we get PW(Surgecrafting)+ADS. 1300 minimum effectiveness boost further improved by whatever hunger procs for it we can get.
would you say that ADS is the best option for pursuing an INT based utility-tasked magic System?

(Yes. Yes you would.)
 
That's not what it says. What it says, very specifically, is that it trivialises the infiltration of the Inner Temple. Nothing less, nothing more. It doesn't say we'll be able to overcome the defenses within or create a socially focused route to rescue the ring or to escape afterwards. Given that, describing it as "trivialising the temple" is pretty inaccurate.
Gisena EFB actual power is to misread Rihaku quotes
 
By on top of other offers, do you mean if I jump on Crimson I could take your offer alongside others? Like say your offer and Redshirt Army's offer at the same time?

You can add my offer to any package of ADS offers you put together, again no limit. And ADS doesn't have to win, as long as you vote for it through to completion I owe you to build votes.
 
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As we saw Selune bodyguard stats was similar to us. The High Marshal has superior Rank. And the Archer dude has superior agility to us.

Gisena cannot fight as long as us due to lacking active regeneration. If she is wounded her combat ability drops. Also she does not have a weapon, what is she going to do if she has to fight a physical fight? I am not sure marital arts are covered by her genius. Remember that we have the forebear blade that attacks with 5x power of ruin to each strike. And we are still at disadvantage.

Serious question to Gisena voters. If she has to fight against a physically superior opponent that cannot be suppressed with nulity, what is plan?
Her offense sucks, she is not a tank and her physically she is not the strongest/fastest in the Temple. She cannot regenerate in combat as we do and she does not have blood buffs/debuffs.
we are not going to meet an opponent in the Temple who can't be suppressed by True Nullity
Skill in combat is covered by her genius, yes, that's come up before.
We also don't actually depend on immediate combat with the Gisena option, since it allows a guaranteed success of infiltration, after which we will have detailed knowledge of their society and our enemies in it and will be able to pick our fights and prepare against counters
 
By on top of other offers, do you mean if I jump on Crimson I could take your offer alongside others? Like say your offer and Redshirt Army's offer at the same time?
I'm willing to make my offer for up to 2k words for Evening Sky applicable with other ADS offers.
 
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