Second Life Begin Again (A Naruto Reincarnation Quest)

RagnvarOdinson · Jan 1, 2020

Trondason said:
Who says he's gonna run away? It's all to possible that, due to butterflies, he's gonna remain with the Leaf (with some light punishment for his... unwise choice of believing in Danzo)

There's a LOT of good reasons to tell (certain) people all your secrets.
1) Trust. In all interactions, some degree of trust is vital. The more trust there is, the better things are. By not telling people something, we are indirectly saying we don't trust them. And if they know that, they are not likely to trust us in return. Having people not trust us, particularly Minato (in case he comes around asking questions), can cause us BIG road blocks. There MIGHT be a discussion on whether or not these people are worthy of trust, but I haven't seen anyone saying that Hiashi/Minato/Kakashi would likely backstab us.
2) Support. If they know what we are doing, they can help us out. If Minato knows about our Medical AI, he can arrange a workshop between us and Orochimaru, help Atlas learn a lot of shit fast. If he DOESN"T, good luck getting any of Orochimaru's time. This is also useful when someone we don't trust is about to find out about our secret, they can help cover it up for us.
3) Utilization. Related to Support, the more people understand what we can do, the better they can make use of us. The Hokage is supposed to know, more or less, what EVERYONE in Konoha can do (or, atleast, have it on file). If he doesn't know we are a Super Medic, he can't give us jobs that work with that best. Ninja regularly keep secrets on HOW they can do stuff, and the EXACT PARTICULARS of that stuff, but it's unusual to hide abilities all together.

When people say that lying is bad, more often than not they are refering to the trust aspect, rather than the any real moral thing (in quests, atleast). Lying, when caught, degrades trust fairly quickly.

Are they required to also tell us all their secrets? No, I think not and what works both ways, sure maybe it'd be obvious Shiro was keeping some secret but everyone is nobody tells anyone even those closest to you everything about oneself that there is to know.

Secrets remain secrets only when nobody knows about it, telling one person or more in this case would only end up ensuring that there would be the potential chance for it somehow get out to the public our the wrong ears.

WCSII said:
So, basically you don't want Shiro to form any new/more emotional connections in the story? Don't want our protag to find a girl and potentially get married when he's older? There's plenty of reasons to tell those close to you many a secret of one's own; some of them are even good. But here, unless we're really not alone with our uncle, there actually isn't a good reason to not tell him about being a reincarnate that happened to be an experienced Medical Doctor, and that deep in our subconscious there is a mostly intact personality imprint.

What? How does that in anyway have anything to do with what I've said? Forming a connection with people doesn't require you to just spout every little thing and detail about yourself to someone else. Telling someone a secret of this magnitude just doesn't magically make you and the other person closer in any way shape or form. Trust doesn't require for there to be no secrets between two people.

Also, not sure what your mention of Drama has anything to do with this tbh. I actualy agree with you on that but that wasn't what we were discussing...I think?

Also I only saw that post and didn't really read any before that so..that might have been the case or not, I cant say because I didn't read it but what I did read and I called it out..not saying you are bullying someone just that calling it fear mongering was in itself wrong.

Edit: Eh, the post disappeared 🤷‍♂️

WCSII · Jan 1, 2020

RagnvarOdinson said:
Are they required to also tell us all their secrets? No, I think not and what works both ways, sure maybe it'd be obvious Shiro was keeping some secret but everyone is nobody tells anyone even those closest to you everything about oneself that there is to know.

Secrets remain secrets only when nobody knows about it, telling one person or more in this case would only end up ensuring that there would be the potential chance for it somehow get out to the public our the wrong ears.

What? How does that in anyway have anything to do with what I've said? Forming a connection with people doesn't require you to just spout every little thing and detail about yourself to someone else. Telling someone a secret of this magnitude just doesn't magically make you and the other person closer in any way shape or form. Trust doesn't require for there to be no secrets between two people.

Also, not sure what your mention of Drama has anything to do with this tbh. I actualy agree with you on that but that wasn't what we were discussing...I think?

Also I only saw that post and didn't really read any before that so..that might have been the case or not, I cant say because I didn't read it but what I did read and I called it out..not saying you are bullying someone just that calling it fear mongering was in itself wrong.

Edit: Eh, the post disappeared 🤷‍♂️

Yeah~ I have tendency to become confrontational where certain triggers are concerned.

As for the topic itself. Pretty much back to Trondason's point about trust. By lying, either directly or by omission, we in effect would be shutting ourselves off from others. This typically has a tendency to snowball fast into emotionally distancing one's self from others (canon Sasuke is actually a good example of this) So unless we did a 180 on the choice within a short time span we'd just be cementing ourselves as a brooding loner. Lies build up quick, which is another reason not to get into a habit of it. (Lockehart from Harry Potter much)

My mentioning of Drama is that by omitting, or directly lying, in this case, would be an act of artificially inserting drama. And forced drama for the sake of forced drama is bad story telling.

Trondason · Jan 1, 2020

RagnvarOdinson said:
Are they required to also tell us all their secrets? No, I think not and what works both ways, sure maybe it'd be obvious Shiro was keeping some secret but everyone is nobody tells anyone even those closest to you everything about oneself that there is to know.

Secrets remain secrets only when nobody knows about it, telling one person or more in this case would only end up ensuring that there would be the potential chance for it somehow get out to the public our the wrong ears.

They aren't required to do diddly squat. Neither are we. But doing the bare minimum is almost never a good idea. What's more, I feel you are conflating the KINDS of secrets. Not telling people about your fetishes or insecurities is a lot different from not telling people you got super-powers. There is also the topic of relevancy, your room mate doesn't need to know about that wierd rash on your foot, but your doctor probably should. You aren't gonna tell your mom what STDs you have, but you should inform a lover.

Here, the "secret" is both very important, and very relevant. Anyone playing a large role in shaping our life (as a caretaker/teacher/boss kind of role) should know, because NOT knowing can bite BOTH of us in the ass quite badly. It stuff they should know because it directly relates to their "job" in our life, but we don't trust them enough to give them the basic tools they need to do that job, and as such basically saying we don't trust them to do that job.

That possibility already exists with us just existing, especially since we've now and gone and let Atlast take control. There are a number of ways for people to figure it out on their own, and we have to either panic and stall that moment as long as possible or control the information release in a way that for sure benefits us. There are only two possible outcomes, we die soon, or someone somewhere finds out, and we should atleast pick who we want that someone to be.

WCSII · Jan 1, 2020

😕
Didn't someone mention in another thread that when this particular DM misses posts in their Like bombing that it's potentially relevant to the thread/quest?

If so then there's four posts that "got missed" between this page and the bottom of the last page.

[edit] Corrections, eight between this page and previous one

Trondason · Jan 1, 2020

WCSII said:
😕
Didn't someone mention in another thread that when this particular DM misses posts in their Like bombing that it's potentially relevant to the thread/quest?

If so then there's four posts that "got missed" between this page and the bottom of the last page.

There's a lot of things it COULD mean. To the point as to be useless for information gathering.

WCSII · Jan 1, 2020

Yeah. I was just wondering what other's made of the, effectively, highlighted posts.

Enetious · Jan 1, 2020

Trondason said:
"So this is something you can do at will?" Every answer leads to another question, we'll have to lie eventually.

He'd be fine with the explanation... if we weren't lying. I SUPREMELY doubt we'll manage any lie, even one of omission, while talking to Minato. I do not think Minato, the Lord Hokage, will be cool with us lying to his face. He might not send us to T&I, but I don't think he'd be happy.

Yes, because it's easily provable. Atlas knows a ton of shit that Shiro never learned, and worst comes to worst a Yamanaka could come look inside our noggin.

Do you realize how much of canon could have been avoided if "worst comes to worst a Yamanaka could come look inside [their] noggin"? Honestly it's more the Kishimoto's fault in this case, if only for at least not giving an explanation as to why Yamanaka can't just "look at their memories" to validate things or at least giving them cause for concern. I'm assuming there's something stopping the Hokage/Konoha from indiscriminately using it on people with claims, maybe an old law or two forbidding it from being used on confirmed loyal Konoha/clan Shinobi due to clan secrets being a thing or simply restricting its use on war criminals and terrorists? Maybe it has temporary/permanent side effects when used to directly search a person's memory? Idk.

Regardless, Minato probably wouldn't take Shiro's claims as seriously as you'd think considering Shiro's a very young child who's still developing major parts of his brain, since he's, y'know, like 3 or 4. Sure, maybe if it were the Third or someone like Danzo I could maybe see it, however Minato is still new to this whole Hokage thing and isn't as experienced or jaded when it comes to the position.

Are we given any canonical inclination to believe that Zetsu would be treating Hamura's kids any differently?
Are we given any reason to believe that the people who hold the body of his mother would be spared while the people who are just dicking around on earth and aren't doing anything important aren't?
Are we given any reason to believe that Hamura's kids are less OP then Hagoromo's?

Are we given any canonical inclination to believe that Zetsu wouldn't be treating Hamura's kids any differently?
Are we given any reason to believe that the people who are safeguarding the body of his mother of which can be summoned by a Rinnegan user at any time which is part of his plans for Hagoromo's sons wouldn't be spared? We know that rival Otsutsuki members exist, so wouldn't having people guarding it as a last resort be advantageous?
Are we given any reason to believe that Hamura's kids are as OP as Hagoromo's?

There is no proof either way, but you are acting like your way is proven fact when everything we know about the setting would imply otherwise.

... o_o. So, my stance was that we shouldn't take your claims that Hamura's children do reincarnate exactly as Asura/Indra do as proven fact. Now you're saying that I need proof that your claims aren't canon, aside from the fact that they aren't referenced anywhere in canon, in order for my stance to be correct? ... I just...

What I was trying to get across was that we shouldn't be taking your speculations in regards to this situation, which haven't been referenced in nor hinted at in canon whatsoever, as fact. Unless the QM canonizes your theories, I stand by my stance that Hamura's children aren't reincarnating since there's nothing to suggest as so in canon as it stands.

Please, not everyone is unique. For example, EVERY SINGLE ONE can apparently summon the Susanno. It gets to be impossible to have an completely unique powers when you got a few thousand of them.

Susanno is the one ability shared by Mangekyou Sharingan users, they usually have two unique ones aside from that. Have you ever read Worm by chance? It's entirely possible to have completely unique powers when you got a few hundred thousand of them, much less a few thousand.

I'm saying that it's common knowledge that the after life exists, having leaked from one of the half-dozen different methods I mentioned. Not everyone needs to see their BFF come back from the grave to get it confirmed. Hell, you only need 1 Confirmed Dead Big Shot to come back to life to prove it can be done.

... most of those methods are either very obscure due to the Shinobi mindset of hoarding knowledge (and especially forbidden ones) from the public and enemy eyes, or haven't been demonstrated or invented/perfected as of now in the quest's time period.

You're doing it again, taking your speculations of which have no concrete proof in canon as fact. We have no proof that any big shot has returned from the dead as of yet.

They aren't supposed to be able to do that, but dead people aren't supposed to be able to do anything. Ninja just stomp all over what is "supposed to be" possible.

Okay? Obito, as far as we're aware of in canon, was uniquely suited to doing what he did for a short time after his death, and that was only because the circumstances aligned exactly as he needed them to in order to pull that stunt off. I highly doubt any other Shinobi has accomplished this outside of Otsutsuki shenanigans.

Not everyone who knows the technique have tested it, but it's certain someone has. That tool is too useful to NOT use.

Even the Third found this technique horrifying in it's usage of live Human sacrifices, so I doubt it. As far as I'm aware only the Hokage and a select granted by the Hokage are given access to the Forbidden Scroll, so the amount of people who could possibly have "tested it" are very low, unless you count Orochimaru in the future.

The Rinnegan is known to have that ability. All of it's abilities are known, Madara wasn't the first to do it, he couldn't be considering the Rinegan was known as one of the Three Great Doujutsu, he's only the most recent.

Yeeaah, no. The Rinnegan is widely believed to be a myth by even the most powerful and old of Shinobi. If everyone truly knew the capabilities of the Rinnegan, then how did Pein surprise literally everyone with each and every one of his abilities? This is just plain wrong.

The Uzumaki have actually advanced to the point of being able to summon Death without dying. Orochimaru slips in to seal a mask they made to do just that, so he can get back his soul-arms. And even if they're dead now, doesn't mean absolutely no info about what they learned slipped out. I mean, the other nations were afraid of them enough to crush them for a reason, so THEY obviously knew what the Uzumaki were up to.

They basically had the equivalent of highly advanced technology, except in scroll/seal form, so of course they were targeted before they could rise to power among the Elemental Nations in any significant way. Like with most examples of lower-tech societies studying incomprehensibly more advanced technology, they can't really understand most of it nor will they until they sufficiently advance their own tech base and their own understanding of things.

Does Minato have any reason to doubt what the technique paper says it does is what it actually does?

Does Minato have any reason to doubt his own wife when it comes to the afterlife? No. It doesn't mean that Shiro or Atlas knows that he's aware that the afterlife's real, though.

We can assume a LOT has happened that canon has nothing to say about. Why would Tobirama NOT resurrect Hashirama after he dies to help finish that war? Tobirama considered the technique incomplete, probably because it couldn't bring people back to full power, but it was obviously compelte enough to serve it's basic functions of "Make Immortal Zombies", as evidenced by the Infinite Explosion technique which he wouldn't have been able to make without first having Immortal Zombies.

Most everyone who would be able to summon Hashirama would be someone Hashirama could trust (Tobirama, Hiruzen, Jiraya, Minato, etc), and in most cases he'd be summoned it'd be in a situation where they wouldn't NEED to control him ("Oh no! The 9 Tailed Fox is attacking the village! If only we had a hokage who could control it!")

Because using incomplete jutsu means death? Orochimaru did improve on the technique between when he deserted Konoha and when he attacked the village, which is a long time to have to get the jutsu in proper working condition. The technique obviously wasn't as good as the one Orochimaru ended up bring to the table, because it was incomplete since the Second died. For all we know, the reason he didn't use it was due to there being too much of a Chakra cost or ability loss to properly use it for any significant duration, at least at the time.

Also, you're still doing this "because my theory makes sense to me and regardless if it's referenced in canon, my theory is 100% proven fact" thing you tend to enjoy doing.

It is certainly common knowledge that the afterlife was proven to be factual.

Based off of what? I'm more seeing it as a sort of religious thing, even if in the end they were correct. I'm guessing that Hagoromo disseminated that information during his time and travels in his teachings, but like most of Hagoromo's stories and teachings they were mostly lost to myth and legend.

It's incomplete and imperfect, but nothing is. Tobirama might be a perfectionist, but he isnt' so much of one to never use ANY technique. Like his Shadow Clones, and his Flying Thunder God, both were notably improved after him and he used both of them, so why with the Impure World Reincarnation be any different?

Reference my point on his incomplete technique above.

Why would Hashirama be apalled at the cost? Hashirama's entire job was murder. He might prefer it to not be teh case, but I don't think he'd get hang up over a rapist/bandit/murderer/enemy-ninja that was already going to be killed, being sacrificed to help turn the tide of the war.

Because Hashirama's an "idealistic fool", as Tobirama would say. To be fair, Naruto is too, and they're both Asura's incarnation and they both became Hokage. You don't see Naruto actively killing people or sentencing people to experimentation or as fuel for a weapon as Hokage, do you?

Sorry for the late reply. In any case, don't take any of my critiques personally even if I sometimes unwillingly come off that way, it's all in good debate.

Harried · Jan 2, 2020

[X]No

wingstrike96 · Jan 2, 2020

[X] Yes
[X]Go to Neji: You need to see your little brother and see if he is okay.

Trondason · Jan 2, 2020

Enetious said:
Do you realize how much of canon could have been avoided if "worst comes to worst a Yamanaka could come look inside [their] noggin"? Honestly it's more the Kishimoto's fault in this case, if only for at least not giving an explanation as to why Yamanaka can't just "look at their memories" to validate things or at least giving them cause for concern. I'm assuming there's something stopping the Hokage/Konoha from indiscriminately using it on people with claims, maybe an old law or two forbidding it from being used on confirmed loyal Konoha/clan Shinobi due to clan secrets being a thing or simply restricting its use on war criminals and terrorists? Maybe it has temporary/permanent side effects when used to directly search a person's memory? Idk.

Regardless, Minato probably wouldn't take Shiro's claims as seriously as you'd think considering Shiro's a very young child who's still developing major parts of his brain, since he's, y'know, like 3 or 4. Sure, maybe if it were the Third or someone like Danzo I could maybe see it, however Minato is still new to this whole Hokage thing and isn't as experienced or jaded when it comes to the position.

Actually... no. I can't really think of any plot points that could have been solved by a bit of mental spelunking. Everyone with secrets that would have changed things were either outside of the village, or Danzo. And Danzo didn't want no Yamanaka crawling around his brain. I assume there is one or two I'm just not thinking of, but it feels unlikely there were so many as to change most the story.

I... don't see a problem with him passing it off as Chunibyo-ism. We still performed our part of being honest and fessing up, we are not hiding and Minato doesn't got any reason to not trust us. He might not BELIEVE us, but he'd trust us.

Enetious said:
Are we given any canonical inclination to believe that Zetsu wouldn't be treating Hamura's kids any differently?
Are we given any reason to believe that the people who are safeguarding the body of his mother of which can be summoned by a Rinnegan user at any time which is part of his plans for Hagoromo's sons wouldn't be spared? We know that rival Otsutsuki members exist, so wouldn't having people guarding it as a last resort be advantageous?
Are we given any reason to believe that Hamura's kids are as OP as Hagoromo's?

Yeah, because he has as much reason to fuck with them as he does to fuck with Hagoromo's kids. Their dad did betray his mom after all.
Yeah, because if they are still around doing their job they would stop Hagoromo's descendents from doing the rineegan thing. That's literally their job, so he needs to get rid of them to make them not do that job.
I don't think Black Zetsu would know that. Plus, only Momma was strong enough to possibly fend them off. Well... Momma, or Hagoromo and Hamura, but he wasn't going to bring THOSE two back. EVERYONE else would just get stomped on.
Yeah, ignoring the nearly identical genetics, the PL of their descendants generally exceeded that of Hagoromo's (come The Last movie). Hagoromo's kids needed Hagoromo's chakra to really stand up to Hamura's kids.

Enetious said:
... o_o. So, my stance was that we shouldn't take your claims that Hamura's children do reincarnate exactly as Asura/Indra do as proven fact. Now you're saying that I need proof that your claims aren't canon, aside from the fact that they aren't referenced anywhere in canon, in order for my stance to be correct? ... I just...

What I was trying to get across was that we shouldn't be taking your speculations in regards to this situation, which haven't been referenced in nor hinted at in canon whatsoever, as fact. Unless the QM canonizes your theories, I stand by my stance that Hamura's children aren't reincarnating since there's nothing to suggest as so in canon as it stands.

My stance from the beginning is that we can assume A LOT about the setting absence proof, because it fits in with how we understand the wider world working. I have been saying we don't NEED proof, but rather internally consistent logic.

If we limit ourselves to only that which we got canon proof of, that leads to a lot of absurd things. Like, for example, there is only one monk temple in existence. None of the teams besides Team 7 ever did any non-D-rank missions. The Akatsuki spent most of their time doing dick-all.

Enetious said:
Susanno is the one ability shared by Mangekyou Sharingan users, they usually have two unique ones aside from that. Have you ever read Worm by chance? It's entirely possible to have completely unique powers when you got a few hundred thousand of them, much less a few thousand.

And you'll notice, in Worm, that they very easily managed to condense those powers into categories. Like, for example, the Flying Brick category. A LOT of people had pretty identical powers of "Fly, Be Tough, Be Strong". While the itty bitty specific details behind their function (Power A makes a forcefield with electromagnetism, Power B makes a forcefield with Gravity), their function is largely identical. While Kamui might have been the only one with that VERY SPECIFIC blend of dimension-bending abilities, he is almost certainly far from the only one

Enetious said:
... most of those methods are either very obscure due to the Shinobi mindset of hoarding knowledge (and especially forbidden ones) from the public and enemy eyes, or haven't been demonstrated or invented/perfected as of now in the quest's time period.

You're doing it again, taking your speculations of which have no concrete proof in canon as fact. We have no proof that any big shot has returned from the dead as of yet.

We have no proof they haven't, and 100% reason to believe they have. Unless you wana say that every ninja who knows about these techniques are braindead, or are perfectly happy letting their village be destroyed rather than use them.

Enetious said:
Okay? Obito, as far as we're aware of in canon, was uniquely suited to doing what he did for a short time after his death, and that was only because the circumstances aligned exactly as he needed them to in order to pull that stunt off. I highly doubt any other Shinobi has accomplished this outside of Otsutsuki shenanigans.

The only thing special about the circumstance, was the kamui he had. He didn't die in any fancy way or anything. So anyone else with dimension bending powers would be able to do it too.

Enetious said:
Even the Third found this technique horrifying in it's usage of live Human sacrifices, so I doubt it. As far as I'm aware only the Hokage and a select granted by the Hokage are given access to the Forbidden Scroll, so the amount of people who could possibly have "tested it" are very low, unless you count Orochimaru in the future.

The Third also found War horrifying. Doesn't mean he isn't willing to wage it if needs must. He led two different wars, and took charge of a 3rd (he didn't start the 1st shinobi war, but he ended it).

Enetious said:
Yeeaah, no. The Rinnegan is widely believed to be a myth by even the most powerful and old of Shinobi. If everyone truly knew the capabilities of the Rinnegan, then how did Pein surprise literally everyone with each and every one of his abilities? This is just plain wrong

Because Kishimoto likes to have everyone be surprised by everything. In Universe, probably because they were surprised that the legends were real. EVERYONE knows about Mr Six Path Sage himself, but they would be surprised if they see him walking down teh street. Yeah, it was myth and legend, but the myths and legends told what the powers were.

Enetious said:
They basically had the equivalent of highly advanced technology, except in scroll/seal form, so of course they were targeted before they could rise to power among the Elemental Nations in any significant way. Like with most examples of lower-tech societies studying incomprehensibly more advanced technology, they can't really understand most of it nor will they until they sufficiently advance their own tech base and their own understanding of things.

And hte only bits of highly advanced seal-tech we know they had, was the stuff releating to Death. We know 1) They had advanced powers, 2) They could summon Death Itself, and control it, 3) everyone was afraid of their powers

It's very easy to connect the dots that the powers they were afraid of, was that "Summon Death Itself" thing. They don't need to understand it to know it exists, like how I don't need to know how a gun works to know that it's a explodey-stick that shoots stuff really fast somehow.

Enetious said:
Does Minato have any reason to doubt his own wife when it comes to the afterlife? No. It doesn't mean that Shiro or Atlas knows that he's aware that the afterlife's real, though.

Now THAT is a seperate point, Shiro knowing that Minato would believe him. I was not thinking of Shiro thinking all this shit out, but rather just having him trust Kakashi's Sensei because he's Kakashi's Sensei.

Enetious said:
Because using incomplete jutsu means death? Orochimaru did improve on the technique between when he deserted Konoha and when he attacked the village, which is a long time to have to get the jutsu in proper working condition. The technique obviously wasn't as good as the one Orochimaru ended up bring to the table, because it was incomplete since the Second died. For all we know, the reason he didn't use it was due to there being too much of a Chakra cost or ability loss to properly use it for any significant duration, at least at the time.

Also, you're still doing this "because my theory makes sense to me and regardless if it's referenced in canon, my theory is 100% proven fact" thing you tend to enjoy doing.

The incomplete Impure World Reincarnation does not cause death. It requires the sacrifice of someone ELSES life, not your own. And we have proof that Tobirama has used it, because he made supplementary jutsu for it that he couldn't have without someone to test it. And ole Tobirama didn't die to his jutsu. So we DO have CANONICAL Proof that he HAS used it atleast once, so it's not a stretch to believe he's used it more than once.

Because, as I said, we can and sorta have to assume things about the setting that we got no proof, if we want anything more than a flat cardboard cut-out barely fit for a childrens school play.

Enetious said:
Based off of what? I'm more seeing it as a sort of religious thing, even if in the end they were correct. I'm guessing that Hagoromo disseminated that information during his time and travels in his teachings, but like most of Hagoromo's stories and teachings they were mostly lost to myth and legend.

Based off any one of the 5 things I said being true. They don't even need to all be true. There are a lot of ways info about the afterlife could have slipped.

Enetious said:
Because Hashirama's an "idealistic fool", as Tobirama would say. To be fair, Naruto is too, and they're both Asura's incarnation and they both became Hokage. You don't see Naruto actively killing people or sentencing people to experimentation or as fuel for a weapon as Hokage, do you?

Naruto hasn't killed anyone because he got that Shonen Protag Juice. Like how we don't see Goku kill anyone in Z. Only in Movies do we see them killing anyone (and in DB without the Z).

But, thing is, while Hashirama MIGHT HAVE BEEN, theoretically, a Shonen Pacifist (doubt it), Tobirama, plainly, wasn't. And he had a good stint of the 1st war as Hokage. And he had to fight an enemy who just killed his brother. I do not really expect mercy, and I do expect him to bring Hashirama back to help finish the job (worst comes to worst, he could just neglect the how. Hashirama probably didn't pay a lot of attention to Tobirama's inventing, let alone what he accomplished after Hashirama's death.)

Enetious said:
Sorry for the late reply. In any case, don't take any of my critiques personally even if I sometimes unwillingly come off that way, it's all in good debate.

I didn't. I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt online, I know I often have trouble with people reading my words with more heat than I intended to put into them.

Magoose · Jan 2, 2020

calling the vote: Not telling Hiashi and going to Neji wins.

Magoose · Jan 2, 2020

Aftermath 2: Brothers

You wanted to tell Hiashi the truth, that was on your mind as your Uncle helped you to your feet. Your body language had told him that you wanted to not talk about anything, your voice silent to the tone of the truth.

But you were silent.

The truth would be silent.

And you walked away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neji was sleeping soundly in a cradle with a few of the other young survivors, in the nursery of the hospital. The entire room was filled with crying, needy babies who had either lost their parents to the attack, or their parents were needed for the defense and reconstruction of the village… the places that were in fact, trashed.

Thankfully, on the interior of the village, and the Hyuga clan suffered anything in the way of real casualties… But there was still work needed to be done.

And so many children were alone, with only the caretakers looking over them.

You walked to the ninja guard that was tasked with keeping the children safe. "Excuse me?" The guard stared at you, his face was unknown to you, but his eyes were cold, emotionless, and dead. "I'm here to pick up my brother." You stated.

The guard nodded, before reaching for a clipboard. "Name?"

"Shiro Hyuga." You stated.

"Name of the child?" The guard asked.

"Neji Hyuga." You replied.

"Status of Parents?" The guard asked again.

"Deceased." You stated.

"Guardian?"

You took a deep breath. "Hiashi Hyuga."

The guard's eyes widened. "Retrieve the child."

You nodded and walked towards the room, feeling an uneasy sense of dread crawl up your spine. You grabbed a piece of paper, and a pencil that was lying close to the door, and a clipboard.

You than activated the Byakugan, and realized there was a reason something was off.

There was someone else inside the room with the children… And you realized… he was watching you.

You took a glance at the shadowy figure, hiding behind a shadow or a genjutsu, and walked towards Neji. Your little brother smiled at you, his entire body squirming and his voice squealed with glee.

He was probably frightened of being alone after so long. You picked up your brother and whispered. "Hello."

Guard:1D100 => 16

The ninja in the room stepped in front of you. The ninja was a child, a little older than you. He wore a mask and clearly did not want you to be in the room.

"May I help you?" you asked quietly, protectively placing Neji in an area where you could both hold him, and fight.

"Who do you serve?" The ninja asked.

You glared and saw that with your eyes, his heartbeat was entering a critical level. If it went any faster, he'd enter cardiac arrest.

"Neither enemy nor friend, Ninja-san" you stated. "But I would like to be a friend ninja-san. You should see a doctor, your heart is about to give out."

The ninja's heart rate spiked again, but you didn't see any ill affect him. "I know… give me the child."

You narrowed your eyes. "You won't make it ten steps before you suffer a heart attack." you stated.

"Give me the child." The ninja drew a weapon, a kunai. "Now."

You just stood still and counted his heartbeat. A moment later you said "You are at 250 beats per minute heart rate, ninja-san. You are going to die if you don't get help."

"Death is preferable to failure." The ninja stated. "I am just a tool, that can be replaced."

You nodded. "Perhaps." You slowly set Neji down, next to another child in a crib.

Protection and Capture:1D100 => 81

You rushed forward and used your palm, the Gentle Fist, to strike above the ninja's chest. He didn't react, presumably because of his rapid heart rate, and dizziness he was likely suffering.

Even without your eyes directly at his heart, you knew his heart rate crashed, the sudden shift caused him to collapse onto the floor like a limp training dummy. But… you had hit him in such a way that a moment later, his heart rate stabilized.

A little trick you… learned from your father, both to help you in a medical situation, and to disable an opponent to take him prisoner

You looked at Neji. "He looked like he needed a nap."

Neji probably didn't understand, but he giggled anyway. It felt nice.

The guard came rushing in. before he saw the unconscious ninja on the floor, and you.

"What the hell happened here?" He asked.

"An infiltrator was looking to take my brother… I dealt with the situation." You stated. "Could you please take him to the brig… or… wherever you take prisoners who want to kidnap children?" You stated.

"Yeah… you got it, kid." The guard stated. "But how did you beat him?"

"His heart rate was at a dangerous level for his age… I merely slowed it down… and he took a nap." You stated.

The guard nodded before he finally took a look at you. "Get out of here. I'll take care of this."

And with those words… you left
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Atlas was… rather perplexing to look at. His machine form had a line.. .connecting to a near doppelganger… of you.

"Atlas… why do you have a copy of me here?" You asked.

"So that I may… understand humans better." He stated. "And so I may help you better when the time comes."

"I thought you wanted to keep me safe?" You replied.

"You are correct… I still do… but the situation has changed." He stated.

"How so?"

"That monster that killed your parents… I… did not expect such power to exist in this world… nor did I think you would be threatened by it. The man… that man who attacked you was not normal." He stated.

"I guessed that much." You replied.

"But besides that… I want to learn how to be human." He stated.

"Why?" You asked.

"Because you are better than… any of the other pilots I've ever had to teach me." He stated. "And I believe that it will help you… and help me."

You nodded. "I… Thank you."

"No… Thank you." Atlas replied. "I hope to learn about this world and you humans better. with you at my side."

Reward: New Action Available.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kakashi-Sensei came to you. "Shiro… We need to talk."

Where does Kakashi Lead you to?:

[]To His home: "Shiro I need to talk to you about something important."

[]To the Uchiha Compound: "Meet your new teammate my cute little Genin!"

[]To The Hokage's Office: "Shiro sit… Tell me what happened in the Hospital?" Lord Danzo stated. Kakashi-Sensei prepared for battle.

[]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

AN: Enjoy.

radioxaxa · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

Enetious · Jan 2, 2020

Trondason said:
Actually... no. I can't really think of any plot points that could have been solved by a bit of mental spelunking. Everyone with secrets that would have changed things were either outside of the village, or Danzo. And Danzo didn't want no Yamanaka crawling around his brain. I assume there is one or two I'm just not thinking of, but it feels unlikely there were so many as to change most the story.

If they used a Yamanaka to view who attacked Team 7 in the Forest of Death then they would've been more prepared for Orochimaru. They were already really concerned over the fact that Sasuke had a Cursed Seal to the point that it technically required a sealing master to actually treat it as opposed to Kakashi's band-aid solution, not to mention the example of Anko is a thing to draw concern. Not to mention the national security implications.

I... don't see a problem with him passing it off as Chunibyo-ism. We still performed our part of being honest and fessing up, we are not hiding and Minato doesn't got any reason to not trust us. He might not BELIEVE us, but he'd trust us.

Pfft, now I've got the image of Shiro acting like a chunibyou, probably something to do with having the soul of a robot; now that's prime omake material right there.

Anyways, my initial concern was that it could end up diagnosed with some kind of split personality, or maybe he'd just be brushed off as having an imaginary friend. I dunno. In any case, I actually kinda agree with you on this now; Minato would definitely trust in Shiro's intentions and good-hearted nature, but maybe not so much believe in the information Shiro's trying to convey.

Yeah, because he has as much reason to fuck with them as he does to fuck with Hagoromo's kids. Their dad did betray his mom after all.
Yeah, because if they are still around doing their job they would stop Hagoromo's descendents from doing the rineegan thing. That's literally their job, so he needs to get rid of them to make them not do that job.
I don't think Black Zetsu would know that. Plus, only Momma was strong enough to possibly fend them off. Well... Momma, or Hagoromo and Hamura, but he wasn't going to bring THOSE two back. EVERYONE else would just get stomped on.
Yeah, ignoring the nearly identical genetics, the PL of their descendants generally exceeded that of Hagoromo's (come The Last movie). Hagoromo's kids needed Hagoromo's chakra to really stand up to Hamura's kids.

So, Black Zetsu has motive to mess with Hamura's children, sure. How does Black Zetsu teleport to the moon then? Also I'm fairly certain that Hamura's children died out due to their low population numbers with zero chance of introducing new people to intermingle with the clan (since they were forbidden to interact with Earth's inhabitants) in order to preserve that Otsutsuki strength without it becoming diluted like the earth-bound Hyuga clan. The best way for Black Zetsu to mess with them is to leave them to rot on the Moon, technically, which he probably did.

It still doesn't give reason to believe that Hamura's children are reincarnating like Asure/Indra. We're given zero reason to believe that anyone is reincarnating like Asura/Indra. Heck, it's a Zetsu-plot in the first place for Asura/Indra to reincarnate.

Also, as Kaguya's will, there's absolutely no way she didn't impart the dangers of her clan to Black Zetsu in case they came around; he'd certainly need the knowledge in order to leverage it against said rival clan members in order to either help revive his mother or in order to help drive them off in some way.

My stance from the beginning is that we can assume A LOT about the setting absence proof, because it fits in with how we understand the wider world working. I have been saying we don't NEED proof, but rather internally consistent logic.

If we limit ourselves to only that which we got canon proof of, that leads to a lot of absurd things. Like, for example, there is only one monk temple in existence. None of the teams besides Team 7 ever did any non-D-rank missions. The Akatsuki spent most of their time doing dick-all.

I think there's a difference between thinking and accepting there's more than one monk temple, and believing that there's other random people transcending death and reincarnating into people without rhyme or reason. To put this into perspective, it's specifically noted in canon that only Kaguya's sons and Hagoromo's were able to do stuff after death; it's also noted that Hagoromo's sons exist outside of time like Hagoromo and Hamura and that they have to specifically choose who they're going to be reincarnated as by observing people on Earth and their traits to pick a suitable person.

In order to reincarnate, they need to exist outside of death/time a la Hagoromo and Hamura. I doubt that any of Hamura's children managed to do the same after they transferred their main powers to the Tenseigan container in order for Hamura to comply with Hagoromo's "just according to Keikaku" plan of not interfering with Earth for a thousand years.

Besides, even if Hamura's children were reincarnating, they could only reincarnate into their direct descendents, which are all on the Moon. Presumably the Hyuga clan are an offshoot of some child of Hamura's that was left behind, and I don't think that said child would reincarnate without major reason like Asura/Indra had.

And you'll notice, in Worm, that they very easily managed to condense those powers into categories. Like, for example, the Flying Brick category. A LOT of people had pretty identical powers of "Fly, Be Tough, Be Strong". While the itty bitty specific details behind their function (Power A makes a forcefield with electromagnetism, Power B makes a forcefield with Gravity), their function is largely identical. While Kamui might have been the only one with that VERY SPECIFIC blend of dimension-bending abilities, he is almost certainly far from the only one

And yet unlike Worm, there's probably only been like a thousand or so Uchiha who've achieved the Mangekyou Sharingan, which means that their special powers are pretty much guaranteed to be rather unique. Besides, it's far more likely that more Uchiha had gotten some kind of teleportation/spatial transposition ability rather than sheer dimension hopping like Obito got. It's like the difference between (in Worm) capes like Strider and capes like Doormaker; there are plenty that can teleport since the mechanics of it are much easier and more likely to come by than dimensional travel.

We have no proof they haven't, and 100% reason to believe they have. Unless you wana say that every ninja who knows about these techniques are braindead, or are perfectly happy letting their village be destroyed rather than use them.

And yet you're ignoring the fundamental fact that Shinobi don't like to disseminate information/proof to their enemies, much less to random Shinobi in their ranks. How do you get everyone to believe you, if you don't have them perform/bear witness to the technique itself? You can't just say "The afterlife is real, we found out by performing a specific technique. What technique? We're not going to tell you because our enemies might use it against us, and there's probably some pies in our ranks."

We have incentive to believe that stuff like that aren't even uncommonly known due to Shinobi culture, and how it operates.

The only thing special about the circumstance, was the kamui he had. He didn't die in any fancy way or anything. So anyone else with dimension bending powers would be able to do it too.

Not bending; very specifically dimensional travel is needed, and only if an Uchiha gets the bright idea to use it while in the afterlife's waiting room. Not to mention that he could only grant Kakashi his powers that way due to the fact that Kakashi's chakra system was already acclimated to Obito's Yin chakra from his Sharingan specifically, not to mention that only Kakashi had knowledge on how to operate said Sharingan. Otherwise, Obito's ghost couldn't interact with the world at all and could only stick around for a very short period before being yanked to the Pure World.

The Third also found War horrifying. Doesn't mean he isn't willing to wage it if needs must. He led two different wars, and took charge of a 3rd (he didn't start the 1st shinobi war, but he ended it).

And yet there's no record of immortal zombies being on Konoha's side, nor is there any existing countermeasures to combat that technique in the other villages as demonstrated during the Fourth War (at least until they repurpose other techniques on the spot). If it was known that Konoha had this technique, then Suna wouldn't have met with Orochimaru in order to plan to betray Konoha in the first place, because they thought they had a fighting chance and didn't think they'd be up against an immortal army of Hokages like you seem to like to think would happen, which it obviously didn't. Konoha wouldn't have struggled so much against Iwa and Kumo in the wars if they had Hashirama and Tobirama doing as you say as well. That's not to mention that there's absolutely no mention of Konoha reviving their fallen to decimate armies in regards to other villages in canon, as I'm pretty sure that'd be enough of a huge deal to inform the audience.

Like I said before, it's very likely that there were major problems with Tobirama's unfinished version that Orochimaru fixed with his own after many years of tinkering with the formula.

Because Kishimoto likes to have everyone be surprised by everything. In Universe, probably because they were surprised that the legends were real. EVERYONE knows about Mr Six Path Sage himself, but they would be surprised if they see him walking down teh street. Yeah, it was myth and legend, but the myths and legends told what the powers were.

So does everyone know all the techniques of the Rinnegan or do they not? It's quite obvious to me that they don't, but for some reason you think that the Sage very specifically explained and had reason to use all of those abilities of his Rinnegan in a public setting when he was teaching people Ninshu and not fighting up against the only threat of the time that would need such abilities used (Kaguya).

And hte only bits of highly advanced seal-tech we know they had, was the stuff releating to Death. We know 1) They had advanced powers, 2) They could summon Death Itself, and control it, 3) everyone was afraid of their powers

It's very easy to connect the dots that the powers they were afraid of, was that "Summon Death Itself" thing. They don't need to understand it to know it exists, like how I don't need to know how a gun works to know that it's a explodey-stick that shoots stuff really fast somehow.

That was a forbidden Uzumaki clan technique that I doubt many people were even aware of, considering the cost of using it. It's far more likely that they wiped out the Uzumaki due to their continuous rise to power through their vitality/longevity and their ever-advancing sealwork.

Now THAT is a seperate point, Shiro knowing that Minato would believe him. I was not thinking of Shiro thinking all this shit out, but rather just having him trust Kakashi's Sensei because he's Kakashi's Sensei.

Now, I never said that Shiro shouldn't tell Kakashi at some point, or even Hiashi really, but there are times and places for these. This is not the time. If Shiro tells Hiashi, Hiashi might not take it too well considering a vast majority of his close family was killed due to a creature that used to lie within some person. Hiashi is barely holding it together as it is.

Kakashi can wait until Shiro gets a bit closer as it hasn't been all that long since they met, even if their relationship is progressing faster than usual due to good rolls.

The incomplete Impure World Reincarnation does not cause death. It requires the sacrifice of someone ELSES life, not your own. And we have proof that Tobirama has used it, because he made supplementary jutsu for it that he couldn't have without someone to test it. And ole Tobirama didn't die to his jutsu. So we DO have CANONICAL Proof that he HAS used it atleast once, so it's not a stretch to believe he's used it more than once.

Because, as I said, we can and sorta have to assume things about the setting that we got no proof, if we want anything more than a flat cardboard cut-out barely fit for a childrens school play.

The "using incomplete Jutsu means death" thing wasn't meant to be taken so literally, even if technically it does cause the death of the sacrifice. What I was trying to get across is that it's considered incomplete for a reason, and that reason can span from absurd chakra costs that could kill you with chakra exhaustion, to it causing the revived person in question to come out feral and berserk. I never claimed that Tobirama died using this jutsu.

I refuse to believe that Konoha was using this technique in their wars, otherwise they wouldn't have been stalemated so badly.

Based off any one of the 5 things I said being true. They don't even need to all be true. There are a lot of ways info about the afterlife could have slipped.

And like always people will demand proof, except in pretty much all cases they can't due to Shinobi culture.

Naruto hasn't killed anyone because he got that Shonen Protag Juice. Like how we don't see Goku kill anyone in Z. Only in Movies do we see them killing anyone (and in DB without the Z).

But, thing is, while Hashirama MIGHT HAVE BEEN, theoretically, a Shonen Pacifist (doubt it), Tobirama, plainly, wasn't. And he had a good stint of the 1st war as Hokage. And he had to fight an enemy who just killed his brother. I do not really expect mercy, and I do expect him to bring Hashirama back to help finish the job (worst comes to worst, he could just neglect the how. Hashirama probably didn't pay a lot of attention to Tobirama's inventing, let alone what he accomplished after Hashirama's death.)

Hashirama was a Shonen protag in canon, and he was obviously a pacifist. I mena, his entire (semi-succeeded) goal was to stop the war between clans and set up a village where children don't have to fight.

Once more, I refuse to believe that it wouldn't be noted somewhere in canon, especially during the Fourth War by some reminiscing Shinobi or Kage, about immortal Hokage being sent to the front lines in previous wars. That's absolutely absurd that you would think that to be the case.

I didn't. I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt online, I know I often have trouble with people reading my words with more heat than I intended to put into them.

Yeeaah, I know that feeling. I didn't think you were taking it personally, but it didn't hurt to clarify just in case.

GGreader · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

MRoy · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To His home: "Shiro I need to talk to you about something important."

Enetious · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To His home: "Shiro I need to talk to you about something important."

Abyssal_light · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To His home: "Shiro I need to talk to you about something important."

Rictus · Jan 2, 2020

Did...Did we just take out a Root agent? At age 3?!

Magoose said:
[]To His home: "Shiro I need to talk to you about something important."

Kakashi petitioned Hiashi to formally adopt us?

Magoose said:
[]To the Uchiha Compound: "Meet your new teammate my cute little Genin!"

Itachi is our new teammate. Or it's Shisui.

Magoose said:
[]To The Hokage's Office: "Shiro sit… Tell me what happened in the Hospital?" Lord Danzo stated. Kakashi-Sensei prepared for battle.

Magoose said:
[]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

Uh oh.

Both of these sound like Interesting Times (in the Chinese sense) given that both involve getting us on the radar of someone scary (Danzo or Orochimaru).

Magoose · Jan 2, 2020

Rictus said:
Did...Did we just take out a Root agent? At age 3?!

4. And said root Agent was suffering from cardiac problems.

Seriously, 250 BPM is not healthy for anyone. He should already be dead or suffering a heart attack.

Rictus said:
Kakashi petitioned Hiashi to formally adopt us?

Possibly.

Rictus said:
Itachi is our new teammate.

One of our new teammates.

Rictus said:
Uh oh.

Both of these sound like Interesting Times (in the Chinese sense) given that both involve getting us on the radar of someone scary (Danzo or Orochimaru).

Danzo probably wants to congratulate us for taking down an infiltrator in the village.

But... Oro want's help. Think of the comedy of Orochimaru begging for help.

RagnvarOdinson · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

...Fuck it, let's see what happens.

SpaceSloth · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

Rictus · Jan 2, 2020

Magoose said:
Danzo probably wants to congratulate us for taking down an infiltrator in the village.

I can't help but notice a distinct lack of Minato in the Hokage's office. And that Kakashi is getting ready to stab someone.

RagnvarOdinson said:
[X]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

...Fuck it, let's see what happens.

I agree.

[X]To A Laboratory: "Orochimaru, we have our proof to help you." You saw a large man with white hair, reading a book, but he set it down. "Tell him about the hospital."

Harried · Jan 2, 2020

[X]To His home: "Shiro I need to talk to you about something important."

Magoose · Jan 2, 2020

Rictus said:
I can't help but notice a distinct lack of Minato in the Hokage's office.

Well he does have a wife and child, a shattered leg in need of healing, and needs to visit a few of the victims to tell them it's going to be okay.

Second Life Begin Again (A Naruto Reincarnation Quest)

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