LokiQuest: Re-Reshape and Retry (CK2)

Red Bovine · Dec 15, 2019

KnowledgeKing said:
But...players got the chance to simply not have the meeting. And to check if Thor is there. And they already knew Odin was in Odinsleep. And the Thor thing was technically decided by someone else so...nah. Not railroading.

The thing is that there were a ton of factors that we couldn't have predicted. First off we didn't know that Thanos was crazy in this instance since we avoided to in our opinion the thing that grove him insane in the first place or at least lead him towards violence to achieve his goals. Second was him already having an infinity stone since he wouldn't have reason or time to get. Third we had absolutely no reason to believe that one single meeting would lead to Asgard getting invaded or that Thanos would be able to pull it off himself despite Asgard being one of if the hardest place to invade in the universe.

We also had no reason to think about asking if Thor was around because again, we had absolutely no reason to suspect that he would be out on adventure at this moment for a number of reasons or that us meeting with someone with one action would trigger an invasion.

No offense but it just feels like the Thanos meeting was a trap option and it seems extremely unfair to give a colossal punishment for one single mistake that we couldn't have possibly predicted would lead to this colossal shit show. And I'd strongly suggest against repeating something like this again since from experience it just leads to players over thinking every single choice and being extremely overly paranoid and I can honestly say that that is just not fun for a lot of players and in fact very frustrating and joy sucking.

Tackyseven · Dec 15, 2019

Sanas22 said:
Do you read bro!?

Oh never mind then, but why would he even do that without talking to loki first that's what bothers me. He didn't even want anthing from asguard, he wanted to cooperate with the company

Red Bovine said:
We also had no reason to think about asking if Thor was around because again, we had absolutely no reason to suspect that he would be out on adventure at this moment for a number of reasons or that us meeting with someone with one action would trigger an invasion.

Yes exactly this! the QM decides things willy nilly and then blames us for being in a bad spot because he decided to put us there for no reason

Black King · Dec 15, 2019

Darkcore41 said:
In the movie the reason is no one listened to him and Titan died. He tried to reason first and when his prediction happened he thought he had to force it because no one would accept it.

No I'm saying...the plan no one listened to was already insane.

Red Bovine said:
No offense but it just feels like the Thanos meeting was a trap option

It was. It's why you had a choice to refuse it. Trap options do exist via others trying to take advantage of people (or in this case, Loki).

Sanas22 · Dec 15, 2019

Tackyseven said:
Oh never mind then, but why would he even do that without talking to loki first that's what bothers me. He didn't even want anthing from asguard, he wanted to cooperate with the company

But why would he? Loki is not the rule maker in Asgard. It is Odin.
Thanos believed that he could earn Odin's respect if the latter saw him in a battle (as the Asgardian are a martial society) and gain an alliance with the most powerful kingdom on this side of the galaxy (and in a few millennials the whole universe).

Loki is just someone that Thanos looks up to. A prince who created a massive financial institute that covers the whole universe.

Darkcore41 · Dec 15, 2019

Ya thinking about why did he want an alliance with Asgard. If he wanted Loki or the companies help then he could just set up a meeting with Loki and talk. If he wanted to force the issue then it would be easier to kidnap and save Loki or cause problems for the company outside of Asgard a heavily defended place and come in and solve them.

Edit: The plan was insane but he attempted diplomacy first instead of jumping to violence. @KnowledgeKing

Edit2: My problem with Thanos is why did he feel the need to ally with Asgard? There was no enemy and the bank is separate from the crown. @Sanas22

Black King · Dec 15, 2019

Darkcore41 said:
Ya thinking about why did he want an alliance with Asgard.

Something about them being his biggest threat and the most powerful military in the universe.

Darkcore41 · Dec 15, 2019

KnowledgeKing said:
Something about them being his biggest threat and the most powerful military in the universe.

They were in isolation so all he would have is legends of that. Also how did he even find out about Loki, Asgard is supposed to be legend. In infinity war it made sense he had a way to track stones but now he doesn't have a reason to track them.
Why does he have a stone if he isn't actively looking for it even if it was on Titan?

Tackyseven · Dec 15, 2019

Sanas22 said:
But why would he? Loki is not the rule maker in Asgard. It is Odin.
Thanos believed that he could earn Odin's respect if the latter saw him in a battle (as the Asgardian are a martial society) and gain an alliance with the most powerful kingdom on this side of the galaxy (and in a few millennials the whole universe).

Loki is just someone that Thanos looks up to. A prince who created a massive financial institute that covers the whole universe.

That's so retarded and short sighted and nothing like canon thanos, he waited patiantly for centuries before executing his plan to gather the stones no way he would go "oh odin doesn't want to be best buddies and Ally with me right away. I better artificially create some horrible situation that could easily backfire on. the QM himself and CAnon is clear that Thanos doesn't LIE, EVER what happens when odin or anyone for that matter ask him if he knew how or why someone sent those guys?

"Oh, I sent them of course and killed and threatend your people to gain your respect Odin" That's retarded, thanos is supposed to be intelligent. This is way more then just short sided this is the QM deciding to force something without remotly thinking about it and refusing to back down from it.

Red Bovine · Dec 15, 2019

Darkcore41 said:
@Red Bovine You would save our parents at the cost of giving Thanos the ability to control entire world's economy. Give him two infinity stones and Asgards magic and expect to dethrone him later. With what, because we can use the medicine to stabilize them but we can't leave with them. They are basically hostages and Odin is an info repository to him.

Would you kindly knock that off? You are still being incredibly manipulative with the wording by making it seem like I mean one thing when that is absolutely not the case. And it just feels like an incredibly cheap tactic. Give him Infinity Stones? Hell no, I don't plan on giving him anything and I would really appreciate you if you stopped trying to shame me that way because I want to go a certain roue.

And I hate that you once again make assumptions. What makes you think we couldn't leave without them? You just assumed we didn't and outright ignored my points that we could probably try to find some way.

KnowledgeKing said:
No I'm saying...the plan no one listened to was already insane.

Well to be fair when he suggested the plan his planet was already on the brink of collapse. Still crazy but still.

KnowledgeKing said:
It was. It's why you had a choice to refuse it. Trap options do exist via others trying to take advantage of people (or in this case, Loki).

But trap options with consequences as insane as this one just seems like a really bad design since this kind of thing isn't really fun for players if we have to deal with stuff like this because of a single bad choice based on a number of factors that we had no way of knowing about or predicting. I mean there is no reasonable way for us to have assumed that meeting with someone would end with the one of the top places in the universe getting invaded and that they had an infinity stone. Seems like that should have been a line of mistakes instead of a single one.

Because honestly it's really not fun in any way for most players if we can bad end due to a single choice involving a number of factors that we had no way of knowing about or predicting.

Sanas22 · Dec 15, 2019

Tackyseven said:
That's so retarded and short sighted and nothing like canon thanos, he waited patiantly for centuries before executing his plan to gather the stones no way he would go "oh odin doesn't want to be best buddies and Ally with me right away. I better artificially create some horrible situation that could easily backfire on. the QM himself and CAnon is clear that Thanos doesn't LIE, EVER what happens when odin or anyone for that matter ask him if he knew how or why someone sent those guys?

"Oh, I sent them of course and killed and threatend your people to gain your respect Odin" That's retarded, thanos is supposed to be intelligent. This is way more then just short sided this is the QM deciding to force something without remotly thinking about it and refusing to back down from it.

The canon Thanos was 1000s of year old who went through the massacre. He was a realist
While this Thanos is 50, who was saved due to Loki's interference. He is an idealist.
Thanos won't lie based on his principle, but he could always redirect the subject.

Darkcore41 · Dec 15, 2019

You didn't word the meeting right, you sad he wanted to meet Loki not Odin. If you had told us he seeking allience with Asgard we would have waited regardless. If you said he wanted to meet with the prince o Asgard then that would hint at an official compacity and could have possibly warned us. You did meet with Loki and after the crit we ought it was PF about something good. You also never gave any indication that the spy network could be subverted until it happened. Yu didn't even give an option during the turns to weed out traitors in the spy net. We went in thinking we were at least close to friendlies that could help but what we got was Loki taken outside of his powerbase with limited resources. @KnowledgeKing

Tackyseven · Dec 15, 2019

Sanas22 said:
The canon Thanos was 1000s of year old who went through the massacre. He was a realist
While this Thanos is 50, who was saved due to Loki's interference. He is an idealist.
Thanos won't lie based on his principle, but he could always redirect the subject.

uuuuh what are you talking about it's not even 2000 years before canon at this point and he massacred people for at least a couple of decades maybe even a centurie or 2 before avengers 1 happened. Also how do you know how old he is right now any way. there is no way he's younger then Loki and thor we're 70+ right now dude and Thor was 1500 years old by IW

Red Bovine · Dec 15, 2019

Also the main issue with us getting punished for a single choice is that that single choice involved us deciding to talk to someone that wanted to meet with us. Which makes no sense IC when you think about it since IC Loki doesn't really have reason to say no to meeting someone based off of meta knowledge and meta knowledge could not be relevant in the timeline we are in for the quest. Not helped in that Loki is a freaking prince and the head of a major company. We didn't really have any reason not to meet with Thanos and had several good IC reasons for doing so and had no reason to see any of what happened coming.

Sena Kumo · Dec 15, 2019

...a fucking 1000 roll in will...should have listened to @Darkcore41.

Darkcore41 · Dec 15, 2019

Red Bovine said:
Also the main issue with us getting punished for a single choice is that that single choice involved us deciding to talk to someone that wanted to meet with us. Which makes no sense IC when you think about it since IC Loki doesn't really have reason to say no to meeting someone based off of meta knowledge and meta knowledge could not be relevant in the timeline we are in for the quest. Not helped in that Loki is a freaking prince and the head of a major company. We didn't really have any reason not to meet with Thanos and had several good IC reasons for doing so and had no reason to see any of what happened coming.

If you want to add on to that, we had just built a massive business in his country which he supported so we had to meet him. The option to choose the location of the meeting should have been given. @KnowledgeKing

Sanas22 · Dec 15, 2019

Tackyseven said:
uuuuh what are you talking about it's not even 2000 years before canon at this point and he massacred people for at least a couple of decades maybe even a centurie or 2 before avengers 1 happened. Also how do you know how old he is right now any way. there is no way he's younger then Loki and thor

MCU Canon is 1000 and less years away....
Thanos was born in 1015 (*Edit: Early it was 1013) according to MCU canon. I confirmed this here with the QM, so he is the same age here.

Tackyseven · Dec 15, 2019

Red Bovine said:
Also the main issue with us getting punished for a single choice is that that single choice involved us deciding to talk to someone that wanted to meet with us. Which makes no sense IC when you think about it since IC Loki doesn't really have reason to say no to meeting someone based off of meta knowledge and meta knowledge could not be relevant in the timeline we are in for the quest. Not helped in that Loki is a freaking prince and the head of a major company. We didn't really have any reason not to meet with Thanos and had several good IC reasons for doing so and had no reason to see any of what happened coming.

Yes knowlege king as a QM has zero transparancy and simply decides things without thinking about what it means because he thinks an idea sounds good the first time he thinks about it. And when others poke hole in them he deflects. He seriously needs idea betas that are from this thread

Sanas22 said:
MCU Canon is 1000 and less years away....
Thanos was born in 1013 according to MCU canon. I confirmed this here with the QM, so he is the same age here.

What?! he's canonly younger then THOR?! I don't even And no, canon is about 1500 years away I'm pretty sure thor knows his own age XD

Black King · Dec 15, 2019

Darkcore41 said:
They were in isolation so all he would have is legends of that. Also how did he even find out about Loki, Asgard is supposed to be legend. In infinity war it made sense he had a way to track stones but now he doesn't have a reason to track them.
Why does he have a stone if he isn't actively looking for it even if it was on Titan?

How did he find out about the planet that has a business visiting his planet? Like...Phoenix Financial's from Asgard.
The stone's Titan's greatest resource. He leveraged it to gain it more resources as his idol Loki did.

Red Bovine said:
But trap options with consequences as insane as this one just seems like a really bad design since this kind of thing isn't really fun for players if we have to deal with stuff like this because of a single bad choice based on a number of factors that we had no way of knowing about or predicting. I mean there is no reasonable way for us to have assumed that meeting with someone would end with the one of the top places in the universe getting invaded and that they had an infinity stone. Seems like that should have been a line of mistakes instead of a single one.

There were a line of mistakes. Mostly 2 with some compounded.

Mistake 1 is bothering with Titan and failing.
Mistake 2 is accepting the meeting with a known insane villain. As players. Not as Loki.

Darkcore41 said:
You didn't word the meeting right, you sad he wanted to meet Loki not Odin. If you had told us he seeking allience with Asgard we would have waited regardless. If you said he wanted to meet with the prince o Asgard then that would hint at an official compacity and could have possibly warned us. You did meet with Loki and after the crit we ought it was PF about something good. You also never gave any indication that the spy network could be subverted until it happened. Yu didn't even give an option during the turns to weed out traitors in the spy net. We went in thinking we were at least close to friendlies that could help but what we got was Loki taken outside of his powerbase with limited resources.

I told you what Thanos told Loki. He didn't word it that way for that very reason. He might be turned away. But if he just wants to meet with Loki...less of a reason to be turned away. Plus he really did want to speak with Loki and gauge his worthiness and willingness to work together.

Also Thanos wanted to meet on the turn, before the crit roll happened.

Spy network just got made. Literally. And there's no way Loki would know so quick. Over time maybe he'd notice some things Thanos fed them. But immediately? Nope.

And this was about as friendly as Thanos gets.

Red Bovine said:
Also the main issue with us getting punished for a single choice is that that single choice involved us deciding to talk to someone that wanted to meet with us. Which makes no sense IC when you think about it since IC Loki doesn't really have reason to say no to meeting someone based off of meta knowledge and meta knowledge could not be relevant in the timeline we are in for the quest. Not helped in that Loki is a freaking prince and the head of a major company. We didn't really have any reason not to meet with Thanos and had several good IC reasons for doing so and had no reason to see any of what happened coming.

Well...if you're going IC it's just an unfortunate occurrence. Happens all the time. You messed with or met with or got the attention of the wrong guy and stuff happens. And not pleasant stuff. People like Gamora didn't even get a chance to say yes or no. Nebula too. Thor and Loki had no real choice with Hela. Or Thanos invading etc.

So IC it's just bad luck. Loki inspired a mad man and got his attention. Also again, a few choices in a row.

Darkcore41 · Dec 15, 2019

Ok so basically we are supposed to meta game good to know. Loki knows how hard spies are to keep loyal yet he didn't put up checks or bindings, that's just sstupid. Last but not least a near fail and a success caused a collapse, not even a nat 1. This is basically what is being said.

Can you at least answer why we were unable to choose where to meet if Thanos had worded it without specifying a meeting place? @KnowledgeKing

Tackyseven · Dec 15, 2019

KnowledgeKing said:
Mistake 1 is bothering with Titan and failing.

But it wasn't a crit fail it failed by like 2 points how can you think that an apropriate level of punishment?

KnowledgeKing said:
I told you what Thanos told Loki. He didn't word it that way for that very reason. He might be turned away. But if he just wants to meet with Loki...less of a reason to be turned away. Plus he really did want to speak with Loki and gauge his worthiness and willingness to work together.

Thanos never lies...

KnowledgeKing said:
Spy network just got made. Literally. And there's no way Loki would know so quick. Over time maybe he'd notice some things Thanos fed them. But immediately? Nope.

The turn is happening over years and you cant tell us that Thanos excexuted all this in like 24 hours and not months even years

KnowledgeKing said:
Well...if you're going IC it's just an unfortunate occurrence. Happens all the time. You messed with or met with or got the attention of the wrong guy and stuff happens. And not pleasant stuff. People like Gamora didn't even get a chance to say yes or no. Nebula too. Thor and Loki had no real choice with Hela. Or Thanos invading etc.

Yes a thanos with a completly different goal and mind set. Why does he want to ally with Asgard? what's his long term plan? I repeat he's not a conqering warlord naturally. Titan was and still should be peacefull and safe

EDIT: seriously This Thanos should be as different as Thanos is between endgame and IW. It's basically two different people

Black King · Dec 15, 2019

Darkcore41 said:
Ok so basically we are supposed to meta game good to know. Loki knows how hard spies are to keep loyal yet he didn't put up checks or bindings, that's just sstupid. Last but not least a near fail and a success caused a collapse, not even a nat 1. This is basically what is being said.

Can you at least answer why we were unable to choose where to meet if Thanos had worded it without specifying a meeting place?

Checks and bindings wouldn't help this situation.

And no, the only thing that caused this was interacting with Thanos.

You could've written it in. Thanos would obviously (obvious now) ask to meet in Asgard.

Tackyseven said:
But it wasn't a crit fail it failed by like 2 points how can you think that an apropriate level of punishment?

Again it's not the fail. It's the Mad Titan.

Tackyseven said:
Thanos never lies...

And he didn't.

Tackyseven said:
The turn is happening over years and you cant tell us that Thanos excexuted all this in like 24 hours and not months even years

? Loki makes spy network last turn. This turn...nothing has happened yet to assume his spies aren't giving him truthful information. Everything checks out as far as he knows. It'd take multiple turns for it to start not matching and for Thanos to make such a mistake.

Tackyseven said:
Yes a thanos with a completly different goal and mind set. Why does he want to ally with Asgard? what's his long term plan? I repeat he's not a conqering warlord naturally. Titan was and still should be peacefull and safe

Thanos is probably a conquering warlord naturally. Given how quickly he turned to it.

But as said before, he wants to ally with Asgard because they have the most power and resources and are the biggest threat to him.

He had to bring Titan under his heel to save it from itself because it was starving and about to collapse like in canon MCU. It's only safe because of him. And they made him King because of it. So now, he wants to save other planets just like canon MCU Thanos. Only difference is, it no longer consists of killing half of the people. But saving them from themselves. Via his rule.

Mostlyblue · Dec 15, 2019

Tackyseven said:
Wait... so this entire attack isn't orchestrated by thanos?! THATS EVEN WORSE! Thanos isn't a world conquering maniac. He doesn't eeven like violence guys. Everything he does in canon he's doing because he HAS to do it (in his eyes) to save everyone in hte long run.

I ask again, why does he want to conquer the planet when he came to save them? Loki being incompetent shouldn't make him do this, frankly it would make him fight harder FOR the Asguardians *sigh* He litereally let his people die in canon when they didn't listen to him, it was only after their destruction that he decided that he didn't want the rest of the unviverse go through the same thing.

I'd assume it was because he got a free opportunity to do so.

[X] Believe the mercenary leader and take the medicine to his parents

We tried fighting 2 times in a row now, both ended up in Lokis defeat.

Tackyseven · Dec 15, 2019

KnowledgeKing said:
? Loki makes spy network last turn. This turn...nothing has happened yet to assume his spies aren't giving him truthful information. Everything checks out as far as he knows. It'd take multiple turns for it to start not matching and for Thanos to make such a mistake.

You just said that he "wouuldn't notice it immidetly" aparantly that includes the literal decade that has passed between these 2 turns... and really the guy that rooted out all corruption on Asgard can't see whats happening over an entire decade? not even worth a roll?

KnowledgeKing said:
Again it's not the fail. It's the Mad Titan.

So he would've attacked us this turn even if we never would've interacted with him at all... and never even touched titan with a ten foot pole ok

KnowledgeKing said:
? Loki makes spy network last turn. This turn...nothing has happened yet to assume his spies aren't giving him truthful information. Everything checks out as far as he knows. It'd take multiple turns for it to start not matching and for Thanos to make such a mistake.

How can you decide this without even rolling for it ONCE for loki

KnowledgeKing said:
He had to bring Titan under his heel to save it from itself because it was starving and about to collapse like in canon MCU. It's only safe because of him. And they made him King because of it. So now, he wants to save other planets just like canon MCU Thanos. Only difference is, it no longer consists of killing half of the people. But saving them from themselves. Via his rule.

He never ever wanted to rule anyone in canon! As soon as he completed his task in IW he bounced and then HE DESTROYED the stones so he could never missuse their power.

Also 1. you're telling me that a single bare failure of ours last turn on establishing a bank on Titan somehow gave thanos the ability to change his planets entire destiny when no one listened to him before and he didn't do anything to stop it in canon. how did that happen? Why did it work what did thanos do differently and why did the people listen to him this time?
And 2. What you call a "god-like" success last turn didn't offset Thanos plan at all, he still decided to fake Invade us anyway. How is that godlike in anyway? what did we get out of this? We don't even use Money in this quest. All that critical success did was screw us over. Name one thing ONE THING that this did for us mechanically that's positive. Creating that company barly changed anything for us despite it supposedly affecting the entire universe HE literally took out a lone during this critical success action that he used to screw us harder lol shouldn't the reward be something like us descovering his plan or something.

And you say that you don't even roll for him anymore so he didn't even have to beat a DC to succed you simply let him do that while we critted how is that fair? or even balanced. That doesn't sound "Perfectly balanaced as all things should be" to me

MysteryCPU · Dec 15, 2019

Creating the company destroyed Asgard. Oh, and allowed a huge loan to Thanos that may or may not have been used to fund the attack.

It is a bit much for a mild failure on Titan and choosing a badly worded option would lead to this situation. Particularly since there was an intentional lack of information on the QM's part (hiding all suggestion of an invasion despite there being decades and a spy network in place.)

And stating that meeting Thanos was an obvious bad choice is a bit unfair- the quest never described him as brutal, or as insane (prior to the invasion). And, in the MCU, it was never decribed as Thanos having the insanity of not being able to comprehend other beings' motivations like he does here.

And, many people were thinking that saving Titan, the thing that caused his insanity, would have prevented that.

With the utter lack of information, hiding of information, and differing characterization of Thanos, it was an unfair trap option. It was an option we really couldn't have known was risky and sounded like it was a meeting somewhere else.

Edit: also, there was no way for us to know that Thanos was being controlled by another player or that he would start with an Infinity Stone (why the heck was that even decided) and Mind-controlling lance. Or that The player of Thor (who we also did not know was player controlled) would weaken Asgard for the hell of it.

Edit 2: Also "you could have written it in" is not a good response when the option we were choosing was so ambiguous such that we did think we were meeting somewhere else. Why would we write "meet at Titan" when we thought the action was to meet at Titan.

That is like having an option be "Buy a Dozen Roses", have the players choose Roses, and then have the player character be crippled because the character is allergic to the color white and the roses turned out to be white. And, when players complain that they thought the Roses were red, respond that they should have written in to buy red roses.

Tackyseven · Dec 15, 2019

MysteryCPU said:
Creating the company destroyed Asgard. Oh, and allowed a huge loan to Thanos that may or may not have been used to fund the attack.

It is a bit much for a mild failure on Titan and choosing a badly worded option would lead to this situation. Particularly since there was an intentional lack of information on the QM's part (hiding all suggestion of an invasion despite there being decades and a spy network in place.)

And stating that meeting Thanos was an obvious bad choice is a bit unfair- the quest never described him as brutal, or as insane (prior to the invasion). And, in the MCU, it was never decribed as Thanos having the insanity of not being able to comprehend other beings' motivations like he does here.

And, many people were thinking that saving Titan, the thing that caused his insanity, would have prevented that.

With the utter lack of information, hiding of information, and differing characterization of Thanos, it was an unfair trap option. It was an option we really couldn't have known was risky and sounded like it was a meeting somewhere else.

Edit: also, there was no way for us to know that Thanos was being controlled by another player or that he would start with an Infinity Stone (why the heck was that even decided) and Mind-controlling lance. Or that The player of Thor (who we also did not know was player controlled) would weaken Asgard for the hell of it.

I wish I could give this post a 1000 likes and insightfuls and informatives

edit:Thor is player controlled too?! So the reason that Thor is a super special ultra snowflake even greater then quest loki is because he was controlled by a friend of the QM, maybe even from the start of the first quest?... Yeah ok some parts make more sense now

LokiQuest: Re-Reshape and Retry (CK2)

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