Should the world be a Low Fantasy setting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 70.0%
  • No

    Votes: 27 30.0%

  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer and continue the war against the Forluc.

[X] [Caermyr] Return Caermyr to the Colryd and begin to settle the lowlands. (+2 Temp Diplo, Increased Relationship with everyone, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux,Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and recognise him as the King of the Forluc in exchange for Arthrynite captives. (+2 Prestige, +2 Temp Diplo, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd)
 
I have a few things to note.

If we go to war, then we need to take Caermyr for ourselves. Because if we go to war, then the Colryd will not have a leader, and there's no heir apparent. Having a very important strategic and economic position in the hands of a devastated, leaderless country is a terrible idea.
 
We have options to settle trade posts or other type of colonies on that location. Explain how this isn't guaranteed.
Except the qm have definitely said It is possible, if you choose the right options and everything went as planned
That in itself imply that there is a chance or are you arguing with a word of qm here??


And wdymn by building a colony? If we return it to the Colryd then we ARE not definitely gonna settle a colony there-_-
 
I have seen no good arguments for total, long-term peace effective immediately, beyond that we get a chance to "recover". That seems like a terrible idea, given that we know their economy is geared towards taking us down at all costs.

I've taken your assesment of the options, and fixed it.

Option 1) a Either we can support Eredan fully and get our people back. This means we need an FOB, but we get that basically no matter what we do, so that's fine.
Pros:
We get our dudes back, no chance of our blessing getting stolen by the crazy eugenics nazis There's no chance of the blessing being stolen due to it's divine origin.
We can support Eredan and use relatively few of our troops to deal massive damage to Forluc heartlands
Lots of Forluc will die in the war, which is good news.

Cons:
We potentially give Eredan a chance to take revenge, but he's getting old and Evatine... isn't really getting old at the same rate.
War continues (even if at a lower heat for us)
The Forluc state survives and is reunited by our help. Due to their religion, excesses continue or worsen.

Option 2) We say "fuck that noise", go no peace, and just play containment outside Eredan's Lowland holdings while the Forluc slaughter eachother.

Pros:
We get to smack more Forluc in the face
Could result in the total evaporation of the Forluc Lack of effective means to attack the southern Forluc ensures they survive
We can potentially get away very cheaply with this, as if Eredan leaves his main base undefended (which he probably needs to take on the Forluc core) we could raze it to the ground The idea that a martial genius would forget to defend his home provinces after a peace treaty is rejected is absurd

Cons:
Continuation of the war
Fighting an enemy genius at the end of a long supply chain on his home terrain
The Southern Forluc are allowed to prosper, as we distract Eredan and they exist too far outside of our logistical range for us to attack easily
No chance of recovery of our citizens in the Southern Forluc


Option 3) We acknowledge Eredanm, but do not support him

Pros:
End of the war
Captives are returned from both North, and whatever part of the south Eredan gets to conquer
Both North and South are further weakened by their civil war, while we get to recover

Cons:
Some captives may not be rescued
Forluc may be reunited
 
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[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and both recognise and offer him assistance against the rest of the Forluc. (+4 Prestige, +3 Temp Diplo, +1 Temp Wealth, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd, further bonuses if successfully make Eredan king of the Forluc)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr and expand into the lowlands around it. (Found a Colony centred around Caermyr)
 
I've taken your assesment of the options, and fixed it.

Option 1) a Either we can support Eredan fully and get our people back. This means we need an FOB, but we get that basically no matter what we do, so that's fine.
Pros:
We get our dudes back, no chance of our blessing getting stolen by the crazy eugenics nazis There's no chance of the blessing being stolen due to it's divine origin.
We can support Eredan and use relatively few of our troops to deal massive damage to Forluc heartlands
Lots of Forluc will die in the war, which is good news.

Cons:
We potentially give Eredan a chance to take revenge, but he's getting old and Evatine... isn't really getting old at the same rate.
War continues (even if at a lower heat for us)
The Forluc state survives and is reunited by our help. Due to their religion, excesses continue or worsen
Option 2) We say "fuck that noise", go no peace, and just play containment outside Eredan's Lowland holdings while the Forluc slaughter eachother.

Pros:
We get to smack more Forluc in the face
Could result in the total evaporation of the Forluc Lack of effective means to attack the southern Forluc ensures they survive
We can potentially get away very cheaply with this, as if Eredan leaves his main base undefended (which he probably needs to take on the Forluc core) we could raze it to the ground The idea that a martial genius would forget to defense his home provinces after a peace treaty is rejected is absurd

Cons:
Continuation of the war
Fighting an enemy genius at the end of a long supply chain on his home terrain
The Southern Forluc are allowed to prosper, as we distract Eredan and they exist to far outside of our logistical range for us to attack easily
No chance of recovery of our citizens in the Southern Forluc

Option 3) We acknowledge Eredanm, but do not support him

Pros:
End of the war
Captives are returned from both North, and whatever part of the south Eredan gets to conquer
Both North and South are continually weakened by their civil war, while we get to recover

Cons:
Some captives may not be rescued
I should note on option 3, we have a choice to go to war again if the Forluc defeat their splinter-nation. Which means if they manage to somehow stop their martial genius, we can afterward force them into a second war against us and aim for releasing the slaves ourselves - you would think they be weakened at that point and we would've recovered enough to have another go, especially as their stats are likely in burning pyres.
 
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and recognise him as the King of the Forluc in exchange for Arthrynite captives. (+2 Prestige, +2 Temp Diplo, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd)
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and both recognise and offer him assistance against the rest of the Forluc. (+4 Prestige, +3 Temp Diplo, +1 Temp Wealth, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd, further bonuses if successfully make Eredan king of the Forluc)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as a trade outpost and begin to settle the lowlands. (Founds a trade post as Caermyr, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
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[X] [Caermyr] Return Caermyr to the Colryd and begin to settle the lowlands. (+2 Temp Diplo, Increased Relationship with everyone, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)

[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer and continue the war against the Forluc.
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer, but focus on consolidating your new control over the northern lowlands.
 
If we take the peace treaty that means we can not attack them at all without what will probably be a severe hit to our reputation. If we can at all.
Incorrect.
If we take the +worthwhile concessions choice, then we can just declare the concessions are insufficiently worthwhile. It will be his breaking the oath and not us violating the peace treaty.
Any peace treaty will be with the northern lowlanders+Forluc warriors part, the southern Forluc part can still be attacked.
EDIT: also if relations drop, then we can attack without a casus belli.

Except the last battle was us getting wrecked by the double Genius combo. We can't afford to deal with multiple losses like that. So we are definitely beatable.
Yes, so?
Of course we cannot deal with multiple losses like that last battle. Of course we are beatable.
The Forluc cannot deal with a repeat of the losses we inflicted, the Forluc are beatable.

False. Nalnir actually loves the current system because turning the women into breeding stock and the resulting baby making industry gives him more followers. He encouraged and supported the changes and the upkeep of the system as a result.
You appear to have missed the immediately following: "Breeding quotas are unlikely to change,"
Nalnir does not "loves the current system". It is benefiting him so he is supporting it, if a new system offers more benefits he will happily betray the current system.

So, I'm going to be real here, I'm not sure how you could write "restoring gender equality" in the same space as "breeding quotas" here.
Forcing women to be brood mares is something Nalnir will never be against because it gives him a large amount of power through having more mortal worshipers.

That is a big reason as to why I don't trust any sort of long term reform Eredan could make, because the current status quo of their zealous nation is one that their God is totally fine with. Any change we would try to mandate would surely weaken Nalnir, so it's not going to last.
I did not write "restoring gender equality" in the same space as "breeding quotas". And I acknowledged that Nalnir approves of breeding quotas.

Rights are not all or nothing situations, just because all rights and total equality is unachievable does not make any reforms pointless.
What I wrote was "several reforms" & "many other rights (like the right to refuse sex, right to own property) can be restored to women"
A few steps towards equality is far better than none.
The Forluc are distant, making military conquest difficult. We have megaprojects and other things to do. Pushing a few rights now is a practical and ethical choice.

"Any change we would try to mandate would surely weaken Nalnir, so it's not going to last."
I strongly disagree, equality does not weaken nations. Increased rights and equality will strengthen the Forluc and Nalnir in the long term.
Nalnir has seen the benefits of Praden's methods and supported them. Many of Praden's reforms were necessary and let the Forluc survive, but many were not.
For example; restoring the right to property ownership to women will have economic benefits, and once Nalnir realises that then he will defend that right.


Except the qm have definitely said It is possible, if you choose the right options and everything went as planned
That in itself imply that there is a chance or are you arguing with a word of qm here??


And wdymn by building a colony? If we return it to the Colryd then we ARE not definitely gonna settle a colony there-_-
The exact word of QM was "It will be a potential outcome on how things turn out as the right combination of choices will get that outcome."
Nothing was said about "and everything went as planned", only that it is a potential outcome depending on what choices are made.

"And wdymn by building a colony?" Somebodynobody10 originally stated "if we establish some sort of vassal state there, we will have control of it anyway" and did not say anything having the Colryd as a vassal.
The vote and arguments made by Somebodynobody10 was for having the city as a vassal state like the trade outpost choice.
 
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New
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and recognise him as the King of the Forluc in exchange for Arthrynite captives. (+2 Prestige, +2 Temp Diplo, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd)
[X] [War] Accept Eredan's offer of peace and both recognise and offer him assistance against the rest of the Forluc. (+4 Prestige, +3 Temp Diplo, +1 Temp Wealth, Secured Loyalty of the Colryd, further bonuses if successfully make Eredan king of the Forluc)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
 
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer and continue the war against the Forluc.
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer, but focus on consolidating your new control over the northern lowlands.
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as a trade outpost and begin to settle the lowlands. (Founds a trade post as Caermyr, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr and expand into the lowlands around it. (Found a Colony centred around Caermyr)

Can someone explain why they want to give up Caermyr. We can still have the Colryd as vassals/allies independent of acquiring the trade hub of the entire region for ourselves.

Also I think this peace shit is crazy especially actively supporting the guy. If he wins the Furloc are going to reform under the rule of martial genius/mystic hero, and a mystic genius, with access to blood magic. We are going to inevitably have to fight these guys again, we literally just acquired a value that makes us look weak. Considering our civ we will have to vote every turn to train troops, so hopefully when they attack we are actually ready for it.

This is literally the same shit as Urth, we killed his mortal form ignored hints from Oshha he was probably not dead went back to doing our own thing and wham he attacked again and stole our blessing. If you think we will get enough influence over a distant civ, that considers us their primary opponents to make reforms that go directly against their cultural identity, said identity being what allowed them to fight and nearly win against us and all our allies, well your crazy. Time for us to consolidate is also nonsense, no one is going to vote to maintain or grow our military after we have peace we will inevitably do everything but that, and be surprised when the xenophobic, racist expansionist civ with multiple values telling them to fight us attacks again.
 
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer and continue the war against the Forluc.
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer, but focus on consolidating your new control over the northern lowlands.
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as a trade outpost and begin to settle the lowlands. (Founds a trade post as Caermyr, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr and expand into the lowlands around it. (Found a Colony centred around Caermyr)
 
Time for us to consolidate is also nonsense, no one is going to vote to maintain or grow our military after we have peace we will inevitably do everything but that, and be surprised when the xenophobic, racist expansionist civ with multiple values telling them to fight us attacks again.

Voting to consolidate, improve the military and all that is at least a possibility.

Destroying the Southern Forluc is not.

In order to fully destroy the Forluc, we would need to punch through not only the martial genius, but then cross a considerable distance of unknown territory, before attacking an enemy way at the edge (or beyond) of our supply chains.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by nat_401 on Apr 2, 2019 at 11:31 AM, finished with 134 posts and 48 votes.
 
Similarly, if we ever want to assimilate the Colryd without either causing a major diplomatic crisis or accepting slavery, then we need to take Caermyr.

Because if we try to assimilate Colryd after they've reestabilished their slave trade in Caermyr, then we either need to cut of the center of the regional slave trade(aka crisis), or accept it.
 
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer and continue the war against the Forluc.
[X] [War] Reject Eredan's peace offer, but focus on consolidating your new control over the northern lowlands.
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as Arthwyd territory directly under the rule of Greenbay. (Secondary Settle Land = Lowland Conflux, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr as a trade outpost and begin to settle the lowlands. (Founds a trade post as Caermyr, Founds a Colony in the northern lowlands)
[X] [Caermyr] Settle Caermyr and expand into the lowlands around it. (Found a Colony centred around Caermyr)

Can someone explain why they want to give up Caermyr. We can still have the Colryd as vassals/allies independent of acquiring the trade hub of the entire region for ourselves.

Also I think this peace shit is crazy especially actively supporting the guy. If he wins the Furloc are going to reform under the rule of martial genius/mystic hero, and a mystic genius, with access to blood magic. We are going to inevitably have to fight these guys again, we literally just acquired a value that makes us look weak. Considering our civ we will have to vote every turn to train troops, so hopefully when they attack we are actually ready for it.

This is literally the same shit as Urth, we killed his mortal form ignored hints from Oshha he was probably not dead went back to doing our own thing and wham he attacked again and stole our blessing. If you think we will get enough influence over a distant civ, that considers us their primary opponents to make reforms that go directly against their cultural identity, said identity being what allowed them to fight and nearly win against us and all our allies, well your crazy. Time for us to consolidate is also nonsense, no one is going to vote to maintain or grow our military after we have peace we will inevitably do everything but that, and be surprised when the xenophobic, racist expansionist civ with multiple values telling them to fight us attacks again.
Just seems like a dick move to take their capital as our own, and I'd prefer not to be a dick.
 
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