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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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@Shard @Red Bovine, as much fun as it is seeing your text wall arguments for multiple pages now, it's probably making Durin regret Thunder Warriors even more than he already does, so maybe now's a good time to put the discussion to rest.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
[X] Plan Shard T127
Look, I like the Thunder Warriors. They're cool, and the idea of poshuman supersoldiers who literally move faster than they can think is badass, but this really isn't the time to try and figure out what we could do to fix them. Maybe after this all blows over, but for now we just need to focus on trying things that have a chance of giving us applicable benefits in the coming wars.
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Uh you do realize that people were using the argument that we'd be researching wildlife right? The vast majority of the stuff we researced wouldn't actually be useful against something like the nids. It's pretty much a crap shoot where we aren't sure what we are going to get and research over a particular animal can take multiple biologic actions to go through.
 
Red Bovine said:
How many times does it need to be said we aren't actually sure how long it would take until we actually do it? Seriously, people thought that just looking into making TWs would take a lot longer than it did with it only turning out to be 12 years in game which is just over 2 turns.
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The action take 22 Years. 4.4 Turns.
Romans said:
@Shard I switched to your plan but I'd ask if you could switch Vlad's action to asking about Alpha Legion, I think that would be a better use of it.
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I think at the moment it is more important to look at anti-nid stuff.
 
Red Bovine said:
How many times does it need to be said we aren't actually sure how long it would take until we actually do it? Seriously, people thought that just looking into making TWs would take a lot longer than it did with it only turning out to be 12 years in game which is just over 2 turns.
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the initial action takes 22 years, and the action to make TW has flavor text saying an actual fix could take a century.

Durin said:
it would take decades of study for him to know one way or the other and probably over a century more to carry out any changes
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from the initial ponder annuals of thunder action.


so we do have a rough idea of the time scale, and its not something that can be done before the nids hit.
 
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Red Bovine said:
How many times does it need to be said we aren't actually sure how long it would take until we actually do it? Seriously, people thought that just looking into making TWs would take a lot longer than it did with it only turning out to be 12 years in game which is just over 2 turns.


1) For gods sake would people using the argument that other polities are going to research something!? That is a rage inducing argument since people keep pointing out that it definitely applies to every single thing we can research and by that logic we shouldn't bother with anything not native with Avernus. There are a number of reasons that the other polities wouldn't want to research something since they may just want to do something else A good example is how our psykes are geared a lot more towards combat as a whole while the other polities are more support in general with most of our stuff being incompatible with how they do things. Also considering that Maximus has been researching animals for decades and still isn't even in the 40s don't think wildlife is as likely to work as working on something as complex to gain stats.
a) No, the estimates were maybe and it wasn't for anything but IIRC to fix everything.
2) And you keep ignoring the fact that the TWs are actually superior to SMs in a few areas to the point that a few are able to easily kill several when outnumbered with low quality gear relative to SMs. They just each have their own benefits. Fixing their issues would still make them better than SMs in a few areas. The areas SMs have over TWs are longevity, Warp resistance, reflexes and reproduction. Fixing the reflex and longevity issue would just leave the resistand and reproduction advantage.
3) And we can still do that once we are done. Why is that so hard to get.
4) No, we aren't totally sure until we do the research and as I mentioned it may not take as long as people think like with how people assumed that just researching TWs would take longer. And as I pointed out we can just not fix the life expentancy issue to save time.
5) And in canon TWs can be worth more than SMs even if not in general. Fixing their issues would make them even more valuable.
6) No, they are inferior in a few areas and have better strengths in others and as I keep pointing out that improving them would increase their value and put them closer to SMs.
7) He had the freaking Trueborn which can only be made from materials from the Primarchs themselves. Note, that TWs are noted to be physically as powerful as TBs.

It's pretty obvious that you are completely ignoring all the positives
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I'm still not really seeing any good justification for throwing resources at the TW at this time. It takes two decades to raise a single TW regiment. The Tyranids arrive in three decades. That's a lot of time and resources we would be sinking to get ten thousand men when we would get multiple actions done on other projects in the same timeframe.

Like my idea to raise power armored units. We can raise 40,000 PDF Scout Regiments, around 90,000 PDF Trooper Regiments or upgrade our Helgard Trooper or upgrade two power armored Helgard Scout forces in the same timeframe of raising one Thunder Warrior regiment.

No, I don't think the costs justifies the benefits of getting Thunder Warriors, especially with an impending Tyranid swarm.
 
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John Masaki said:
I'm still not really seeing any good justification for throwing resources at the TW at this time. It takes two decades to raise a single TW regiment. The Tyranids arrive in three decades. That's a lot of time and resources we would be sinking to get ten thousand men when we would get multiple actions done on other projects in the same timeframe.

Like my idea to raise power armored units. We can raise 40,000 PDF Scout Regiments, around 90,000 PDF Trooper Regiments or upgrade our Helgard Trooper or upgrade two power armored Helgard Scout forces for the price and time of one Thunder Warrior regiment.

No, I don't think the costs justifies the benefits of getting Thunder Warriors, especially with an impending Tyranid swarm.
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It does not take two decades to raise a single TW regiment. it takes awhile to test how the TW's work. And 22 years to look into improving things. TWs are something we can use to be like "OH CRAP, we are about to get attacked! HURRY, make ALL the TWs!" That's what they are for. Quick easy to produce super-soldiers. They have longevity issues but are still super-human, and 200 years isn't great, but is still a long time, 40 turns worth.
 
John Masaki said:
I'm still not really seeing any good justification for throwing resources at the TW at this time. It takes two decades to raise a single TW regiment. The Tyranids arrive in three decades. That's a lot of time and resources we would be sinking to get ten thousand men when we would get multiple actions done on other projects in the same timeframe.

Like my idea to raise power armored units. We can raise 40,000 PDF Scout Regiments, around 90,000 PDF Trooper Regiments or upgrade our Helgard Trooper or upgrade two power armored Helgard Scout forces in the same timeframe of raising one Thunder Warrior regiment.

No, I don't think the costs justifies the benefits of getting Thunder Warriors, especially with an impending Tyranid swarm.
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As people keep pointing out the TW action to raise the regiment is meant to find ways to train them. It's not actually hard to make more of them once we are done with that action and we can likely raise a lot more once we do. TWs are insanely powerful warriors that actually surpass SMs physically and can be raised by the thousands in just a few years.
 
Azgrin said:
Correction, it takes two decades to figure out how to use them, how to train them ,1 year to implant them and then the rest is training. In the future it will be much quicker to make Thunder Warriors.
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jjffjhjf said:
It does not take two decades to raise a single TW regiment. it takes awhile to test how the TW's work. And 22 years to look into improving things. TWs are something we can use to be like "OH CRAP, we are about to get attacked! HURRY, make ALL the TWs!" That's what they are for. Quick easy to produce super-soldiers. They have longevity issues but are still super-human, and 200 years isn't great, but is still a long time, 40 turns worth.
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Okay, it's 1 am here, so I stand corrected.

I'm...still kinda wary of throwing resources at them, though. I much prefer to go with power armoring up the units we have already.
 
I'm fine with making TW, but starting a 22 year action to try and improve them, before we see them in action? that just strikes me as a bad use of actions.
 
Red Bovine said:
Uh you do realize that people were using the argument that we'd be researching wildlife right? The vast majority of the stuff we researced wouldn't actually be useful against something like the nids. It's pretty much a crap shoot where we aren't sure what we are going to get and research over a particular animal can take multiple biologic actions to go through.
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Okay, but it doesn't matter, because the TW action garuntees that we won't get anything useful against either the Nids or the Orks for 22 years minimum, and even then it'll only give us options to improve something we haven't used yet.
 
random_npc said:
I'm fine with making TW, but starting a 22 year action to try and improve them, before we see them in action? that just strikes me as a bad use of actions.
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Well, its not going to get shorter by waiting. Doing difficult things is good for improving traits, and this is the kind of thing that the mechanics us likely to really be interested in. This is tech that was directly touched by the Omnissiah. Having someone who is an expert in it, will likely decrease Mechanicus Unrest, much like how Tranth doing amazing stuff decreased Mechanicus Unrest. We are also Avernus, the land of elites, so having an even more elite thing seems really helpful for us. We don't have the biggest army, but we have the most skilled human army. Adding additional superhumans can only help.

Execute/Dumbo said:
Okay, but it doesn't matter, because the TW action garuntees that we won't get anything useful against either the Nids or the Orks for 22 years minimum, and even then it'll only give us options to improve something we haven't used yet.
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We've already studied the Orks, so that's out, and the Ninye have a thing they can do on their own against the Nids that we don't have to use biologis action for.
Also, TW action means we might be able to improve TWs before the Tryanids or Orks hit, which would be very good. We don't have any idea how long TW stuff would take, or what options we'll have. Further TWs WILL help us against both the Orks and the Nids as well as everything else. So getting them is an anti-ork/nid thing. Its just also more general as well.
 
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John Masaki said:
Yeah. This is why I'm wary of starting the program. I don't really want to tie up an action for them just yet.
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I honestly think Thunder warriors will be good for the trust. It'll let other worlds pump out helgaurd level units in a hurry if they have to, and for us it'll be another bonus for psyker hunting rolls. so I'm all for laying the path in the next turn or two.

but i'm leery of taking flaws of thunder period, let alone when we have a big looming threat. It honestly feels like the ultimate shield and neutron guns, something the other power s will most likely have done by the next conclave.
 
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Red Bovine said:
1) would people stop using the argument that other polities are maybe going to research something as an excuse to not do it ourselves? That is a rage inducing argument since people keep pointing out that it definitely applies to every single thing we can research and by that logic we shouldn't bother with anything not native with Avernus. There are a number of reasons that the other polities wouldn't want to research something since they may just want to do something else A good example is how our psykes are geared a lot more towards combat as a whole while the other polities are more support in general with most of our stuff being incompatible with how they do things. Also considering that Maximus has been researching animals for decades and still isn't even in the 40s don't think wildlife is as likely to work as working on something as complex to gain stats.
a) No, the estimates were maybe and it wasn't for anything but IIRC to fix everything.
2) And you keep ignoring the fact that the TWs are actually superior to SMs in a few areas to the point that a few are able to easily kill several when outnumbered with low quality gear relative to SMs. They just each have their own benefits. Fixing their issues would still make them better than SMs in a few areas. The areas SMs have over TWs are longevity, Warp resistance, reflexes and reproduction. Fixing the reflex and longevity issue would just leave the resistand and reproduction advantage.
3) And we can still do that once we are done. Why is that so hard to get.
4) No, we aren't totally sure until we do the research and as I mentioned it may not take as long as people think like with how people assumed that just researching TWs would take longer. And as I pointed out we can just not fix the life expentancy issue to save time.
5) And in canon TWs can be worth more than SMs even if not in general. Fixing their issues would make them even more valuable.
6) No, they are inferior in a few areas and have better strengths in others and as I keep pointing out that improving them would increase their value and put them closer to SMs.
7) He had the freaking Trueborn which can only be made from materials from the Primarchs themselves. Note, that TWs are noted to be physically as powerful as TBs.
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1. Why improve the inferior product when you already have a superior product available?
2. If even the other polities don't bother with the Thunder Warriors wouldn't that be a resounding indictment of the Thunder Warriors?
3. I want to see the Thunder Warriors in action before we dedicate 22 years to learning whether it is possible to improve them.

I feel that you don't realize that Biologis research actions w.r.t Avernus have provided continual boons to our economy, population growth and military strength. The expected time to implement improvements to the Thunder Warriors is about equivalent to 20 Wildlife Research Actions. You assert that the marginal improvements in Thunder Warriors is greater than the marginal benefits from basically half the species we have done so far.

I disagree.

Every time we research a species we often acquire a benefit. Sometimes it is minor benefit. Somewhat more rarely it is a major, even gamechanging. Always it fills up the world a bit more. We selected Avernus at the beginning of the quest filling it up with all the gribbles that could kill us that that we could possibly fit in. Ignoring all of the ways Avernus comes up with interesting new horrible monsters is frankly boring. Ignoring the Biologis Wildlife options eliminates a great deal of worldbuilding!
 
random_npc said:
I honestly think Thunder warriors will be good for the trust. It'll let other worlds pump out helgaurd level units in a hurry if they have to, and for us it'll be another bonus for psyker rolls. so I'm all for laying the path in the next turn or two.

but i'm leery of taking flaws of thunder period, let alone when we have a big looming threat. It honestly feels like the ultimate shield and neutron guns, something the other power s will most likely have done by the next conclave.
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Hmm. I suppose we should find a slot for them eventually or have a Sound Out action to see who's willing to start working out the training kinks among the Trust (I think it was mentioned that Midgard was interested?) but not now.
 
[X] Plan Shard T127

Nothing durin has said about Thunder warriors has given me confidence.
 
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Shard said:
1. Why improve the inferior product when you already have a superior product available?
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Why do you continue with this specific argument? Like, you know we can't make Space Marines, right? Look at our actions. None of them are "Make Space Marines". Thunder Warriors are the only one of the two we can make, and they have their use.
 
jjffjhjf said:
Well, its not going to get shorter by waiting. Doing difficult things is good for improving traits, and this is the kind of thing that the mechanics us likely to really be interested in. This is tech that was directly touched by the Omnissiah. Having someone who is an expert in it, will likely decrease Mechanicus Unrest, much like how Tranth doing amazing stuff decreased Mechanicus Unrest. We are also Avernus, the land of elites, so having an even more elite thing seems really helpful for us. We don't have the biggest army, but we have the most skilled human army. Adding additional superhumans can only help.
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the thing is, it might get shorter if we don't. We're swapping techs with everyone in another 100 years, there are good odds one of them will have done it. As for using it to bleed unrest, I find that deeply unlikly. It might get maximal a trait, but I doubt it would give him anything truly game changing.

as for the payoff, we have no idea how thunder warriors will work, or how much of a detriment the limitations are. I feel we may want to at least see them in action before deciding to go down an action chain hinted to be over a century long.

Andres110 said:
Why do you continue with this specific argument? Like, you know we can't make Space Marines, right? Look at our actions. None of them are "Make Space Marines". Thunder Warriors are the only one of the two we can make, and they have their use.
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his point is the TW's role is partially filled by space marines. TW are still useful, yes, but it's sorta like the difference between going from not having a bomber to having a bomber vs having a general purpose bomber and getting a specialized one. in both cases it's useful, but its less of a boon in the second.
 
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Andres110 said:
@Shard, why do you continue with this specific argument? Like, you know we can't make Space Marines, right? Look at our actions. None of them are "Make Space Marines". Thunder Warriors are the only one of the two we can make, and they have their use.
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Because Byzantium will be making more and more space marines with an exponential growth. They are essentially taking the 'Make Space Marine' actions every turn.
 
Shard said:
Because Byzantium will be making more and more space marines with an exponential growth. They are essentially taking the 'Make Space Marine' actions every turn.
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Ok.

But hear me out.

What about, while Byzantium makes the maximum amount of Space Marines it's possible for the Imperial Trust to make...

We also make Thunder Warriors?
 
Callamus biologis or not I say we have the opportunity to create better Thunder Warriors than they can due to Alkahestry.
 
Andres110 said:
Ok.

But hear me out.

What about, while Byzantium makes the maximum amount of Space Marines it's possible for the Imperial Trust to make...

We also make Thunder Warriors?
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Thunder Warriors are short lived warriors intended to be expendable and expended quickly. Producing excess Thunder Warriors hurts our production of more long term assets (Because they will die of old age instead of dying in battle), such as equipping Helguard with better armor, equipping PDF with power armor, etc, etc. Critically, note that the equipment we produce for Helguard and PDF are often pass-down-able when the former owner is killed, while the Thunder Warrior body produced cannot be reused for the next generation of thunder warriors.

I'm not saying we shouldn't produce Thunder Warriors. I'm saying we should keep them to a small, specialist force. Since we keep them to a small, specialist force, the benefits of researching improvements to them are also correspondingly reduced. Basically I am saying we should use TWs for what they were made for.
 
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Shard said:
Personal
SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Personal Attention: Implement (Psychic Cannon)
SLOT B - Year 2
-Y2: Personal Attention: Thunder Warriors: Laying the Path
SLOT D - Year 1
-Y1: Spend Time With (Syr and Sigmund)
-Y2: Spend Time With (Our Grandson)
-Y3: Attend Emergency High Council Meeting
-Y4: Spend Time With (Our Grandson)
-Y5: Spend Time With (Our Grandson)
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You sure you want Rotbart to spend a PA on the TW program, @Shard? Just checking.
 
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