Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

Oshha said:

The Maradysh Civil War is over. What do the Arthwyd do next?
[] [React] Push the Lowlander Tribes while they are still weak. ([MAIN] War Party = Lowlander Tribes)
[] [React] Invade the Cursed Forest. ([MAIN] War Party = Caradysh)
[] [React] Go after all of their enemies. ([SEC] War Party = Lowlander Tribes, [SEC] War Party = Caradysh)
[] [React] Scout your enemies. ([SEC] Explore Lands = Lowlands, [SEC] Explore Lands = Cursed Forest,)
[] [React] Seek peace with the Lowlander Tribes. ([MAIN] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes)
[] [React] Prepare defences. ([MAIN] Build Palisades = Greenbay)
[] [React] Develop Infrastructure ([SEC] Develop Mine = Sunrise Mountains – Copper, [SEC] Build Palisade = Sunrise Bay)
[] [React] Thank Arthryn and her Daughters for the victory. ([MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses)
[] [React] Farm. ([MAIN] More Farming)

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Either attack our enemies now, sue for peace while they're vulnerable or at the very least try to get more info on them. Ignoring them will allow them to rebuild for the next round.

Oshha said:

Pick your initial Province Policy
[] [Policy] Balanced = Does whatever seems reasonable.
[] [Policy] Defensive = Takes defensive martial actions.
[] [Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.
[] [Policy] Economy = Takes actions to increase stats.
[] [Policy] Expansion = Focuses on settling new lands.
[] [Policy] Exploration = Focuses on exploring areas.
[] [Policy] Infrastructure = Focuses on building infrastructure.
[] [Policy] Megaproject = Focuses on building megaprojects.
[] [Policy] Offensive = Takes offensive martial actions.
[] [Policy] Religion = Focuses on religious actions.
[] [Policy] Study = Takes study actions.

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Go with Diplomacy. With our Provinces taking care of that, we're free to use the other Actions for other stuff without having to more about Diplomacy too much.

Exploration is second best, allows us to get more info on our surroundings or find new resources.

[X] [React] Develop Infrastructure ([SEC] Develop Mine = Sunrise Mountains – Copper, [SEC] Build Palisade = Sunrise Bay)
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure = Focuses on building infrastructure.

[X] [React] Develop Infrastructure ([SEC] Develop Mine = Sunrise Mountains – Copper, [SEC] Build Palisade = Sunrise Bay)
[X] [React] Thank Arthryn and her Daughters for the victory. ([MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.

Korporati said:

@Oshha A quick question. if we plan to peace out with the lowlanders, how would the maradysh see our action?

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They wouldn't be happy with it, but they would accept it. They got what they wanted out of the civil war with the rebels being crushed and the lowlanders driven back south with heavy losses. They also need to expand and rebuild their pre-war strength as the civil war has cost them about half of their population.

Vote is still open.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest - Original | Page 368 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 9182-9224]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
Task: React
[X][React] Thank Arthryn and her Daughters for the victory. ([MAIN] Venerate the Goddesses)
No. of Votes: 9
[x][React] Seek peace with the Lowlander Tribes. ([MAIN] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes)
No. of Votes: 7
[X][React] Develop Infrastructure ([SEC] Develop Mine = Sunrise Mountains – Copper, [SEC] Build Palisade = Sunrise Bay)
No. of Votes: 6
[X][React] Scout your enemies. ([SEC] Explore Lands = Lowlands, [SEC] Explore Lands = Cursed Forest,)
No. of Votes: 6
[x][React] Invade the Cursed Forest. ([MAIN] War Party = Caradysh)
No. of Votes: 3

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——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Policy
[x][Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.
No. of Votes: 12
[X][Policy] Infrastructure = Focuses on building infrastructure.
No. of Votes: 11
[X][Policy] Defensive = Takes defensive martial actions.
No. of Votes: 4
[X][Policy] Exploration = Focuses on exploring areas.
No. of Votes: 2
Total No. of Voters: 27

Anyway, in the interest of asking questions.

@Oshha
How are the Maradysh feeling about their taboo.
- Do they still retain their death penalty on everyone who goes to the lowlands?
--- For warfare?
--- For peace?
--- For Trade?
- How do they feel about the escaped remnants?
--- To be exterminated?
--- Driven out?
--- Left alone?
- How did the barbarian Maradysh treat loyalists who happened to be in their settlements when the secession occured?
How do the boar people feel about the atrocities?
Did we see any children of Urth among any of the enemy forces?

Oshha said:

Lowlander Tribes = Servants of Evil/Sacred/War

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I think Sacred is meant to be Scared here,

Raichu1972 said:

We know that the Caradysh have contact with the lowlanders, and we know that it was the Caradysh who sent them up here to attack us.
This is going to keep happening again and again and again for as long as we decide to keep playing hermit kingdom and hoping our problems will go away if we build enough stuff.

Just ignoring the lowlanders is even worse than finishing them off (which is worse than going for peace) since they will still be at war with us, only they will have a more personal stake in the matter from the fact that we've killed a bunch of them + the fleeing rebels among them spreading shit about us.

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I kinda doubt any peace would hold due to the influence of the undead abomination. Since peace will not hold long-term, even a one turn peace is like wasting an action because the lowlanders can't do much after being smashed flat without rebuilding for a generation or two.

So de facto, we have peace for one turn even without using an action.

Genji said:

I kinda doubt any peace would hold due to the influence of the undead abomination. Since peace will not hold long-term, even a one turn peace is like wasting an action because the lowlanders can't do much after being smashed flat without rebuilding for a generation or two.

So de facto, we have peace for one turn even without using an action.

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You're making the same mistake we made with the Maradysh. We assumed they were monolithic, rather than 2 diverging halves.

Even if we manage to convince only a single settlement of the Lowlands, it means we get a base of operations from which to execute further attacks against Urth.

In addition, if we're not interested in long-lasting peace, we could use our overwhelming military force and recent genocide to intimidate them into giving up a lot of tribute. Peace for a turn is worth it if we get (for example) domesticated animals out of it.
Heck, we could probably be friendly with them even if we demand only a tiny bit of tribute for winning the war, depending on how succesfull our diplo is.

[X] [React] Scout your enemies. ([SEC] Explore Lands = Lowlands, [SEC] Explore Lands = Cursed Forest,)
[X] [React] Seek peace with the Lowlander Tribes. ([MAIN] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes)
With a main action spend on the peace i expect more then just a simple peace deal but the start of trade that will make it a lot harder to convince them to go to war again. As one of the reasons they were convinced to fight was that they knew little about us.
[x] [Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.

[x][React] Seek peace with the Lowlander Tribes. ([MAIN] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes)
[x][Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.

Few reasons for this vote:

1) We need to free up forces to attack Urth, not stay distracted with the Lowlands
2) We need to get our version of the story out, before Urth convinces everyone that we're murderous genociders
3) Ending the war is likely to involve some tribute. It's the Stone Age, that's how it works. This means we can acquire several domesticated animals, which would be a boon
4) If we do not end the war here, the Maradysh may continue their purge. We need to deal with the genocide thing (even if it causes tensions) before they go full fuhrer
5) It gets us essential information on the Lowlands
6) Even if we convince only a small fraction of the Lowlands of the truth of Urth's deception, we get another of avenue of attack. That means that Urth needs to realign his entire defenses.
7) Diplo focus seems neat. Infrastructure isn't exactly a priority in the middle of a war.

Oshha said:

Boarfolk Nomads = Neutral/Unknown/Minimal

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Looks like the actions of the loyal boarfolk have washed away the lingering memories of the nomad boarfolk invasion, that'l make reaching out to them simpler.

Genji said:

I kinda doubt any peace would hold due to the influence of the undead abomination. Since peace will not hold long-term, even a one turn peace is like wasting an action because the lowlanders can't do much after being smashed flat without rebuilding for a generation or two.

So de facto, we have peace for one turn even without using an action.

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We don't know anything about the lowland except Urth did some work there. So don't go assuming that it's impossible.

Genji said:

I kinda doubt any peace would hold due to the influence of the undead abomination. Since peace will not hold long-term, even a one turn peace is like wasting an action because the lowlanders can't do much after being smashed flat without rebuilding for a generation or two.

So de facto, we have peace for one turn even without using an action.

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@10ebbor10 said the point I was going to make quite well (possibly better than I could).

You are making a lot of assumptions here; I will try and go through them but by bit.

1) Peace will not last; Urth will turn them against us.
This is a self defeating prophecy. If you believe peace will not last and thus never attempt to achieve it, then of course it will be true.

2) The Caradysh have the ability to consistently poison the lowlands against us.
Even if they do, it would mean that they have to tangle up some of their actions consistently poisoning the well instead of being able to use our existing shitty reputation (Rich Mountain Demons) in order to get people to easily attack us.

Here is also a nice quote from @Hallesworth49 :
I'd like to add to this that the diplo action could also serve as an early warning, on whether our relations with other civs take a turn for the worse and thus we can be prepared for either war or to avert it.

Another quote from @Kiba
Diplomacy also keep us abreast of technological innovations happening in other areas, and let us get useful animals and goods.

3) Attemtpting to gain peace while the Caradysh exist is pointless and thus we should not do it.
This is demonstrably false. Peace means that we don't have to worry about getting sneak attacked, it means that we can finally have an information source in the lowlands, it means that the Caradysh have less people to throw st us in combat, and so on.

4) The Lowlanders are a monolithic block that have already become under the sway of the Caradysh.
This is also false, as we've just seen with the Maradysh. No civ is a monolith (including our own highly collectivist civ); we will be able to find someone who support us/doesn't think we're terrible if we work hard enough at it.

Overall, the vibe I'm getting from you (and the anti-peace people in general) is that diplomacy is not worth the effort.
Diplomacy is always worth the effort.

Can anybody explain their reasoning for infrastructure?

Kiba said:

Can anybody explain their reasoning for infrastructure?

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Presumably they want the Copper Mine, and extra defensive pallisades.

jjffjhjf said:

[X] [React] Develop Infrastructure ([SEC] Develop Mine = Sunrise Mountains – Copper, [SEC] Build Palisade = Sunrise Bay)
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure = Focuses on building infrastructure.

Infrastructure wins everything. Also, peace with the lowlanders will almost certainly cause the Maradysh to go to war with us, and they have cavalry. Until we can get rid of that debilitating belief somehow, we're gonna have to continue to be hostile to the lowlanders or risk losing our vassal.

The boarfolk may or may not be loyal to us, or their own area's cadlon. Kinda wish we could do something about them actually. Like, talk to their priests about bringing the All-Boar into the pantheon or at least allied with it. We seem to be able to get along pretty well.

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Not sure if you've read though the thread yet, but the idea that the Maradysh will war with us has been confirmed to be false by the QM:

Oshha said:

They wouldn't be happy with it, but they would accept it. They got what they wanted out of the civil war with the rebels being crushed and the lowlanders driven back south with heavy losses. They also need to expand and rebuild their pre-war strength as the civil war has cost them about half of their population.

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Does that change your opinion on the situation at all?

[x][React] Seek peace with the Lowlander Tribes. ([MAIN] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes)
[x][Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.

Rather this than infrastructure or veneration.

[X] [React] Seek peace with the Lowlander Tribes. ([MAIN] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.

[x][React] Seek peace with the Lowlander Tribes. ([MAIN] Trade Expedition = Lowlander Tribes)
[x][Policy] Diplomacy = Focuses on engaging in diplomacy.

Raichu1972 said:

Overall, the vibe I'm getting from you (and the anti-peace people in general) is that diplomacy is not worth the effort.
Diplomacy is always worth the effort.

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In the context of extremely limited actions and 25 year turns, that is true. Rather than spending an action on the hope that diplomacy works, i'd rather spend said action on something that gives a more certain result.

So in this case then yes, diplomacy is not worth the effort.

Venerating goddesses brings back our stability wich is pretty low at the moment. Let's first bring order to our house before engaging outside.

Genji said:

In the context of extremely limited actions and 25 year turns, that is true. Rather than spending an action on the hope that diplomacy works, i'd rather spend said action on something that gives a more certain result.

So in this case then yes, diplomacy is not worth the effort.

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A chance at peace is better than the certainty of having to waste resources and actions every X turns because we're going to war again.

And as I mentioned before, we're in an extremely strong position. The enemy has no defenses left, we can pressure the peace settlement to be significantly in our favor (but let's not vassalize them, please?).

Random Member said:

A chance at peace is better than the certainty of having to waste resources and actions every X turns because we're going to war again.

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Having certain stability is far better than chance of peace.

10ebbor10 said:

And as I mentioned before, we're in an extremely strong position. The enemy has no defenses left, we can pressure the peace settlement to be significantly in our favor (but let's not vassalize them, please?).

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We if it's offered why not? Long term it's better option than having to send diplomatic missions to keep relationship up.