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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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AlsoSprachOdin said:
So, get Eldar Favors next turn, then use then that turn or the next turn?
And hope that the Waaagh doesn't kick off before we can do all that?
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Well, there is a reason I wanted divination on the Waagh this turn, so we would know for sure whether we need to hurry or not.

As far as I can say, and I may be wrong, the plan is to get favors next or after the next turn, and use them when we need, pretty much hoping that it won't unite.
 
agumentic said:
Well, there is a reason I wanted divination on the Waagh this turn, so we would know for sure whether we need to hurry or not.

As far as I can say, and I may be wrong, the plan is to get favors next or after the next turn, and use them when we need, pretty much hoping that it won't unite.
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I'd just like to remind the Thread that I said this would happen, and suggested we wait on healing Lin for the four turns Durin said we could.
And if we get Waaaghed, I'll remind you all again.
 
AlsoSprachOdin said:
I'd just like to remind the Thread that I said this would happen, and suggested we wait on healing Lin for the four turns Durin said we could.
And if we get Waaaghed, I'll remind you all again.
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I'm still not convinced redirecting the Waaagh is even a good idea. If we redirect it at a chaos polity and they lose it means ork daemon worlds, which are even worse than chaos daemon worlds because at least chaos daemon worlds are just an impregnable defense. Ork daemonworlds spew out endless super orks to attack.

I'd rather take the hit earlier than risk an even worse Waaagh later.
 
inverted_helix said:
I'm still not convinced redirecting the Waaagh is even a good idea. If we redirect it at a chaos polity and they lose it means ork daemon worlds, which are even worse than chaos daemon worlds because at least chaos daemon worlds are just an impregnable defense. Ork daemonworlds spew out endless super orks to attack.

I'd rather take the hit earlier than risk an even worse Waaagh later.
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Honestly, if we were to earn a minor favor from the Eldar and wanted to spend it on dealing with Orks, I'd say it would be better for us to take on the Waaagh and have the Eldar attack the domain while it's been weakened due to the Waaagh having headed for us. With the area being relatively weak, they could burn a number of worlds, if not all of them. This would mean the Waaaghs coming out of the domain would be weaker, if not outright no longer a problem.

Just steering one Waaagh away only benefits us in the short term. Stopping an Ork domain from generating threatening Waaaghs every few decades benefits us in the long term.
 
I want the Waaargh to come our way so we can eliminate the threat immediately, Orks are worse than chaos right now, the couple dozen ork world's spawning this Waaargh are a more immediate thread than the chaos polities with hundreds of world's around us. Creating more ork realms around us seems less than optimal.
 
inverted_helix said:
I'm still not convinced redirecting the Waaagh is even a good idea. If we redirect it at a chaos polity and they lose it means ork daemon worlds, which are even worse than chaos daemon worlds because at least chaos daemon worlds are just an impregnable defense. Ork daemonworlds spew out endless super orks to attack.

I'd rather take the hit earlier than risk an even worse Waaagh later.
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Daemon Worlds are very rare things. I order for the orks to make them they need to already be there for them to take. I doubt there is enough of them around. The only group where that is a danger is if we sent it to the Demogoye since any other group would be more than capable of beating the orks.
 
Adventwolf said:
Daemon Worlds are very rare things. I order for the orks to make them they need to already be there for them to take. I doubt there is enough of them around. The only group where that is a danger is if we sent it to the Demogoye since any other group would be more than capable of beating the orks.
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The target commonly discussed for redirecting is Amir'ka and it has 455 worlds, given usual ratios there's probably a dozen or maybe even two dozen daemon worlds there. In terms of being capable of beating them, pre-awakening yes. But post awakening basic orcs have an advantage over chaos guardsmen. Plus Chaos can't transport billions of troops as easily as the orks. I could easily see the orks taking a big chunk out of Amir'ka before their navy was ground down, and that would include daemon worlds.

Chaos fleets are something of a bad match against orks as well. Chaos fleets strongest combatants tend to be daemon battleships and battle barges with incredibly high armor ratings. Strikecraft use a different formula for armor calculation that effectively gives them massive armor penetration. Orks use truly absurd swarms of strikecraft that would chew up daemon battleships in short order. This is made worse by Chaos ships mounting less AA than our own, and AA directly divides strikecraft damage. So even though the Chaos fleet is larger, its advantage is probably less than it appears.

Any of the smaller chaos powers would definitely get wrecked easily.
 
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inverted_helix said:
I'm still not convinced redirecting the Waaagh is even a good idea. If we redirect it at a chaos polity and they lose it means ork daemon worlds, which are even worse than chaos daemon worlds because at least chaos daemon worlds are just an impregnable defense. Ork daemonworlds spew out endless super orks to attack.

I'd rather take the hit earlier than risk an even worse Waaagh later.
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There's no indication of Amir-ka having Daemonworlds, as those come with Daemon Princes who are usually dictators of their polities, and Amir-ka is democracy. But even if there are, I think you terribly underestimate their military capabilities - it would take some real bad luck for them to lose on defence, especially on the daemonworld.
Enjou said:
Just steering one Waaagh away only benefits us in the short term. Stopping an Ork domain from generating threatening Waaaghs every few decades benefits us in the long term.
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We could just go and burn that domain ourselves, you know. Just send enough ships that the fleet is not an easy target.
 
inverted_helix said:
The target commonly discussed for redirecting is Amir'ka and it has 455 worlds, given usual ratios there's probably a dozen or maybe even two dozen daemon worlds there. In terms of being capable of beating them, pre-awakening yes. But post awakening basic orcs have an advantage over chaos guardsmen. Plus Chaos can't transport billions of troops as easily as the orks. I could easily see the orks taking a big chunk out of Amir'ka before their navy was ground down, and that would include daemon worlds.

Chaos fleets are something of a bad match against orks as well. Chaos fleets strongest combatants tend to be daemon battleships and battle barges with incredibly high armor ratings. Strikecraft use a different formula for armor calculation that effectively gives them massive armor penetration. Orks use truly absurd swarms of strikecraft that would chew up daemon battleships in short order. This is made worse by Chaos ships mounting less AA than our own, and AA directly divides strikecraft damage. So even though the Chaos fleet is larger, its advantage is probably less than it appears.

Any of the smaller chaos powers would definitely get wrecked easily.
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No they would not have dozens of Daemon worlds. Those are a bit more common now than before, but outside of the giant warpstorms you are lucky to see even one. The two we had near us were the result of two incredibly powerful forces concentrating on making them. Chaos can move enough troops around they have the speed to do so. Even if they lack the shear carrying capacity to do it at once they have the speed to get the same amount in the time it takes the orks to arrive. The awakening never said anything about increasing the ork travel speed so they are still as slow as normal.

The bigger Chaos factions around us are either a match for us already or stronger than us. If we can deal with a Tier 2 than so can they. They may take more damage to their worlds than we would but that is a bonus. Even if they had daemon worlds those are not easy to take even for awakened orks.
 
agumentic said:
Citation needed]

Durin already mentioned that "the thing vs Astartes" is not indicative.
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Which that they're as physically potent as true born (in their description I believe) yes sorry quoting is hard atm, but let me try.

Durin said:
physical superiority to Astartes only puts them on par with Trueborn,
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Got it!

They do lack mental bonuses though which could mean...well a lot of things, but that likely is the game breaker between the two.

Or did you mean they true born equal marines 1.75 vs marines 1 which I believe is in discord or thread I can't get on the discord ATM.

And yes I know it is not indicative of a fresh thunder warrior, buts still very impressive that a bunch of literally falling apart old guys in mk1 armour were able to do so well the fresh and very well trained first gen war hounds in mk2 armour who likely had Kharn as one of their numbers. In fact I think it's him who tells that story...

Sigh whatever, let's leave for now and get definite stuff soon.

[X] Plan Enjou T123

Oh god I'm voting. Eh celebration of first turn in a while.

Apologies again for issues in the post still on portable.
 
agumentic said:
There's no indication of Amir-ka having Daemonworlds, as those come with Daemon Princes who are usually dictators of their polities, and Amir-ka is democracy. But even if there are, I think you terribly underestimate their military capabilities - it would take some real bad luck for them to lose on defence, especially on the daemonworld.
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Adventwolf said:
No they would not have dozens of Daemon worlds. Those are a bit more common now than before, but outside of the giant warpstorms you are lucky to see even one. The two we had near us were the result of two incredibly powerful forces concentrating on making them. Chaos can move enough troops around they have the speed to do so. Even if they lack the shear carrying capacity to do it at once they have the speed to get the same amount in the time it takes the orks to arrive. The awakening never said anything about increasing the ork travel speed so they are still as slow as normal.

The bigger Chaos factions around us are either a match for us already or stronger than us. If we can deal with a Tier 2 than so can they. They may take more damage to their worlds than we would but that is a bonus. Even if they had daemon worlds those are not easy to take even for awakened orks.
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Why would a polity with 17 worlds have a daemon world but a polity with hundreds not? That makes zero sense whatsoever. No matter what cost you want to ascribe to it, a polity with 25x the planets can much better afford to pay it.

In terms of transport capacity Chaos doesn't have the ability to know where the orks are going to arrive at so there's really no significance to the travel speed. Even if they did 500 billion cultists and 750 billion chaos guardsmen probably don't win against 600 billion awakened orks.

I don't really agree that Amir-ka is stronger than us at all. We can't attack Amir-ka because of their speed advantage letting them attack our planets if we sent too much after them, but that's irrelevant in fighting the orks since the orks don't really care if you burn their planets behind them because they overexposed them by taking their whole fleet with them. Did you forget we wiped out about a fifth of their fleet with pretty much zero losses with only around a third of our own fleet?

Even if I accepted that Amir-ka was stronger than us (which I don't), Chao ship design is a very bad match against orks which puts them at a disadvantage.
 
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Doomed Wombat said:
Which that they're as physically potent as true born (in their description I believe) yes sorry quoting is hard atm, but let me try.
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Oh, so you meant just physically as strong, not in general combat capability? The description does make it clear that they are not as good as 1.75 Astartes.

It's impressive, but it doesn't really tell us anything about how strong TW are. Might as well remember Jane and Jacob cutting through entire companies and say that normal humans are best supersoldiers.
 
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inverted_helix said:
Why would a polity with 17 worlds have a daemon world but a polity with hundreds not? That makes zero sense whatsoever.

In terms of transport capacity Chaos doesn't have the ability to know where the orks are going to arrive at so there's really no significance to the travel speed. Even if they did 500 billion cultists and 750 billion chaos guardsmen probably don't win against 600 billion awakened orks.

I don't really agree that Amir-ka is stronger than us at all. We can't attack Amir-ka because of their speed advantage letting them attack our planets if we sent too much after them, but that's irrelevant in fighting the orks since the orks don't really care if you burn their planets behind them because they overexposed them by taking their whole fleet with them. Did you forget we wiped out about a fifth of their fleet with pretty much zero losses with only around a third of our own fleet?

Even if I accepted that Amir-ka was stronger than us (which I don't), Chao ship design is a very bad match against orks which puts them at a disadvantage.
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Because Valinor even during the Imperium was a valuable and important world. It had narritive importance and was vulnerable to begin with. It became a Daemon world shorty after the birth of the abomination when it had a massive power boast. It makes sense it would make as many worlds as possible that were then meant to expand and conquer as much as possible to bad there was other forces around that hemmed them in and they still expanded.

They can find out where the orks are heading to. Our ability is not unique. Chaos definitely has it's own group looking for incoming threats. After all it is not Ridcully that tells us when a Waagh is coming but the Order of Omens regular psykers that do not have chaos blessing to improve their abilities. That means they can move their forces where they need to. Also not all the orks are being sent on the Waagh some stay behind either to make more orks or because they are forgotten. Choas has plenty of ways to fight the orks most of them have to deal with deamons, pacts, and using bullshit but they can fight and win.

I never said Amir-ka was stronger. They are either a match or slightly weaker than us. I am also not talking about attacking anyone I am talking about weakening one of the surrounding powers instead of sacrificing our own men, resources, and time in a fight we can avoid. Amri-ka did not send anything at us it was Atlas that did so and they are going to focus on rebuilding not just stay with a weaken force. Amir-ka isn't going to go and attack the ork worlds they are going to move to counter them where ever they arrive in their territory.
 
agumentic said:
Oh, so you meant just physically as strong, not in general combat capability? The description does make it clear that they are not as good as 1.75 Astartes.

It's impressive, but it doesn't really tell us anything about how strong TW are. Might as well remember Jane and Jacob cutting through entire companies and say that normal humans are best supersoldiers.
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Eh it depends on what exactly the mental stuff is (do they think faster and thus react quicker or are they just smarter for better logistics etc. Both?) but yes I never intended to imply they were equal to Trueborn entirely.

I'd say it does give us an impression a good one too. But no you are wrong.

Hero units best super soldiers ;) fit meh!

They make true born look like pansies!
 
inverted_helix said:
Why would a polity with 17 worlds have a daemon world but a polity with hundreds not?
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Because Valinor was an Abomination polity fully serving it, while Amir-ka is a very Chaos Undivided polity where no one is likely to let anyone else build a world in the name of their god, especially as it would also probably make them immortal.

Well, first, they probably do have some knowledge of where orks are going to hit - even discounting that they are likely to have some divination support, normal warp scanners are a thing. Second, the Waagh is not going to consist of every ork in the domain and a lot of them are going to be shot down in space, so accounting for defenses, guardsmen actually have a pretty good chance.

Of course, I don't think it's going to be one big battle, more like Amir-ka slowly whittling down the Ork fleet over dozens of unimportant planets, taking them back afterwards. Unless we send the Waagh at some very important target, like Atlas, but then the whole situation is very different.
 
inverted_helix said:
I'm still not convinced redirecting the Waaagh is even a good idea. If we redirect it at a chaos polity and they lose it means ork daemon worlds, which are even worse than chaos daemon worlds because at least chaos daemon worlds are just an impregnable defense. Ork daemonworlds spew out endless super orks to attack.

I'd rather take the hit earlier than risk an even worse Waaagh later.
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Well, see, that's where you pull the classic maneuver of attacking your enemies while they're distracted fighting your other, more distant and less actively belligerent enemies.
 
agumentic said:
Because Valinor was an Abomination polity fully serving it, while Amir-ka is a very Chaos Undivided polity where no one is likely to let anyone else build a world in the name of their god, especially as it would
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It's also probable that Valinor could only pull it off because it was safe in a warp storm for while like us.

Making one is hard, but with safety and time it's doable.
 
Adventwolf said:
Because Valinor even during the Imperium was a valuable and important world. It had narritive importance and was vulnerable to begin with. It became a Daemon world shorty after the birth of the abomination when it had a massive power boast. It makes sense it would make as many worlds as possible that were then meant to expand and conquer as much as possible to bad there was other forces around that hemmed them in and they still expanded.
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By that standard it would also have made daemon worlds in Amir-ka. Amir-ka is supported by all the Chaos gods so can benefit from all of their power.

Adventwolf said:
They can find out where the orks are heading to. Our ability is not unique. Chaos definitely has it's own group looking for incoming threats. After all it is not Ridcully that tells us when a Waagh is coming but the Order of Omens regular psykers that do not have chaos blessing to improve their abilities. That means they can move their forces where they need to. Also not all the orks are being sent on the Waagh some stay behind either to make more orks or because they are forgotten. Choas has plenty of ways to fight the orks most of them have to deal with deamons, pacts, and using bullshit but they can fight and win.
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You're forgetting that these are orks that have been accumulating divination resistance for the past half century or so. That's why we have to spend a Ridicully action if we want to know where they're going.

Orks don't breed in the conventional way. You don't need a population left behind to make more orks. The spores they leave behind make new orks on their own. It's one of their biggest advantages.

Chaos has plenty of bullshit but orks right now have more.

Adventwolf said:
I never said Amir-ka was stronger. They are either a match or slightly weaker than us. I am also not talking about attacking anyone I am talking about weakening one of the surrounding powers instead of sacrificing our own men, resources, and time in a fight we can avoid. Amri-ka did not send anything at us it was Atlas that did so and they are going to focus on rebuilding not just stay with a weaken force. Amir-ka isn't going to go and attack the ork worlds they are going to move to counter them where ever they arrive in their territory.
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Atlas is part of Amir-ka. Their forces were part of the total forces that Amir-ka had. Whenever you look at a Chaos nation's total forces those are actually summing up the forces of all the warlords and what have you within them.

In this era no one is really stationary in their forces. Everyone is continuously building more. That applies to us, Chaos, and Orks. So saying they're rebuilding is essentially just a way of saying they're weaker, because no one stopped building in the first place.
 
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inverted_helix said:
By that standard it would also have made daemon worlds in Amir-ka. Amir-ka is supported by all the Chaos gods so can benefit from all of their power.
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I'd like to point out there is a lot we don't know about demon worlds. We know that they are expensive and that they share a border with every other demon world, that's about it. For all, we know powers need to swear themselves to a single patron to maintain them, or there are some other requirements we can't see.


to clarify, I'm not saying we can be sure Amir-ka has none, but we can't really make assumptions one way or the other. If we start squaring up against them, how many if any demon worlds they have should very much be something we look into.
 
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