The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Um wouldnt a defense station to make use of the torpedo system we found not sound like a good idea so it isnt ad hoc as they are now ? Should make our systems first strike capability truly hilrarious hopefully or just waves of nice torpedos instead ? It might not be the cheapest idea but it sounds like a decent idea i think.
 
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Memory manipulation devices: A highly useful, if complex device that allows Callamus to induce engramatic dissociation within their secret agents. When used correctly they can allow a person to consciously believe one thing, but subconsciously work to further the goals of another. Anyone could be an agent of the secret service…even you. Of course, it's not very useful against Chaos whose memetic power surpasses the devices completely.
How is this different from the cistron creation process? Does it make it quicker to convert by reducing the entire process down to the implantation of a single device? Is it superior or inferior to cistron creation? This is relevant information because cistrons are Mechanicus agents and so Callamus would have them.

Also, it would definitely be useful against Chaos. Like, take some random Chaos citizen off the street and put an MMD in him. He, an Abomination factory worker, consciously believes himself to be working hard to gain favour from the bosses, all while subconsciously hoping to get trusted enough to get access to the reactor where he'll blow it up. You might think the Abomination stuff would override the MMD, but it wouldn't. Why? Because Chaos works not only on a conscious level, but also on a subconscious level. (This is how it manages to corrupt some people, by subconsciously making them do pro-Chaos stuff even as their consciousness is unaware of it.) The guy's consciousness may belong to the Abomination, but because of the MMD's thought-changing influence, the guy's subconscious would belong to Tzeentch/Malal/both.

Alternatively, you could have the subconscious stuff remain aligned to the same Chaos God as the consciousness, but make it do different things. For an example, put it in a Khornate guy. Khornates subconsciously want to fight, and the MMD doesn't change that. What it does instead is to make it so that instead of the Khornate developing a deep-seated hatred for Callamus, it instead develops a deep-seated hatred for Abominites or something. Then, once the Khornate becomes really high-ranked in his army, he leads an invasion of Abomination territory instead of Callamus territory.

tl;dr: The MMD would either change a person's subconscious allegiance to another Chaos God, or keep it in-line with the conscious allegiance but change the specifics of what they do.

Liquid Grenades: Recovered by the Eldar, these devices are among the most advanced humanity ever managed to produce. When thrown they release a field of exotic particles that cause all objects in their vicinity to take on the physical properties of liquids. The effect is most disturbing as biological matter, stone, metal and more melds together. Whether those effected die instantly is unknown. Currently the only known way to resist the devices effect is psycic powers who can use telekinesis or biomancy to retain their shape until the duration of the device ends or being a Necron. They point and laugh at this kind of technological miracle.
I think you should have it so that this thing is easily defeated by smearing some kind of cheap liquid or oily substance on the armour. This thing seems like a vortex grenade but without any downsides, so giving it an easy counter would balance it out.

XV Bellam Ravager (a high-powered weapon of some kind)
Lexicanum says it's a weapon suit.
 
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The guy's consciousness may belong to the Abomination, but because of the MMD's thought-changing influence, the guy's subconscious would belong to Tzeentch/Malal/both.
This is an utterly terrible idea, because it relies on the hope that a mind owned by Tzeentch would do something that is useful to you.
It won't.
The Changer of Ways will use his pawn in a way that benefits him, not you.

Same for every idea that relies on Chaos-sworn people to act in your interests.
 
Also, it would definitely be useful against Chaos. Like, take some random Chaos citizen off the street and put an MMD in him. He, an Abomination factory worker, consciously believes himself to be working hard to gain favour from the bosses, all while subconsciously hoping to get trusted enough to get access to the reactor where he'll blow it up. You might think the Abomination stuff would override the MMD, but it wouldn't. Why? Because Chaos works not only on a conscious level, but also on a subconscious level. (This is how it manages to corrupt some people, by subconsciously making them do pro-Chaos stuff even as their consciousness is unaware of it.) The guy's consciousness may belong to the Abomination, but because of the MMD's thought-changing influence, the guy's subconscious would belong to Tzeentch/Malal/both.

that sounds like a great trick for Tzeentch cults. but trying to use chaos like that is a fast ticket to falling for someone who does not work for chaos themselves. it also may run into issues where the two taints try and spread out of the mental boxes you have them in. with the conscious taint trying to spared into the subconscious and vice versa and then doing something weird. remember, taint is basically mental/spiritual cancer that spreads aggressively, trying to cordon it off would be unreliable.

Alternatively, you could have the subconscious stuff remain aligned to the same Chaos God as the consciousness, but make it do different things. For an example, put it in a Khornate guy. Khornates subconsciously want to fight, and the MMD doesn't change that. What it does instead is to make it so that instead of the Khornate developing a deep-seated hatred for Callamus, it instead develops a deep-seated hatred for Abominites or something. Then, once the Khornate becomes really high-ranked in his army, he leads an invasion of Abomination territory instead of Callamus territory.

ok, now that might work. but again, the random mental yanks of the chaos are going to be playing merry hell with it. Not to mention anyone with the pull to be useful may have enough favor that a demon would take notice of the effect. still, if you managed to capture an influential lieutenant without anyone knowing you might be able to nudge them towards attacking a specific cult, though i'm not sure how useful that would be. Though I could see a mission to snatch a high ranking abomonite and doing this to them to ensure they get into a feud with a specific other abomonite.
 
but again, the random mental yanks of the chaos are going to be playing merry hell with it. Not to mention anyone with the pull to be useful may have enough favor that a demon would take notice of the effect.
Honestly, it really depends a lot on how the "random mental yanks" work and how the MMD works. If the MMD does nothing more than provide "vote weighting" to one specific line of choices it should work well enough.

As for discovery by a daemon, I doubt it. Purely material tech isn't really something that warp creatures have innate influence with/over. The daemon would be able to tell that a person's subconscious is geared more or less in a specific direction, but not why. If the effect was caused by warptech or some psychic power then it could detect the true source of the compulsion, but since it's not, it'd think it's just the subconscious is compelling itself.
 
Honestly, it really depends a lot on how the "random mental yanks" work and how the MMD works. If the MMD does nothing more than provide "vote weighting" to one specific line of choices it should work well enough.

I doubt the mental yanks are anything like consistent. While most of them are likely not going to touch the mental programming, enough of them likely would that over time it would go weird.


As for discovery by a daemon, I doubt it. Purely material tech isn't really something that warp creatures have innate influence with/over. The daemon would be able to tell that a person's subconscious is geared more or less in a specific direction, but not why. If the effect was caused by warptech or some psychic power then it could detect the true source of the compulsion, but since it's not, it'd think it's just the subconscious is compelling itself.

you vastly underestimate the infernal. it may not recognize exactly what it was looking at, but it would likely be able to tell it was a compulsion of some kind. maybe if the compulsion was slight and mostly in line with what they would do anyways, but I would not rely on that.
 
@Durin
1 Would it be better to sound out about asking to use two of the minor favors or can we just wait till the High council meeting?
2 what other techs do we have would be considered Basic?
 
Huh? No, from what I gather, they would pay us full costs of upkeep and 63% of it on top, so 218,420 EM.
You're forgetting that they have to pay for the upkeep of the troops that are tithed to the Trust as well. The 163% we're sending them of the force we keep in order to get the rebate. So they're actually paying 163% of the upkeep we are for the forces in the Trust guard, then paying that same amount again to us due to the rebate (of which we spend (100%/163%) on the upkeep of the helguard scouts we kept). So they're actually paying (6700/.05)*1.63*2 = 436,840 EM for the dubious privilege of our Helguard scouts going from normal power armor to advanced power armor. However only (6700/.05)*2.63 = 352,420 is being spent on the the helguard scouts directly, with the remaining 84,420 being given to us for something else.
 
@Enjou @Nurgle, shouldn't we be expediting the large shipyards, ship repairs, and locator shell implementation? They're all construction projects.

Shipyards yes. Will add.
Ship repairs maybe. I'm not sure if the cost doubling is worth only a year in that case. Anyone else have thoughts?
Locator shell implementation is a no, since it doesn't involve construction of any large structures and so isn't applicable.
 
so uh, I did some digging on what the graviton cruiser might look like.

the only gravtion weapons we have are from the well of urd,

Well of Urd Graviton Weapon- This large design requires a massive amount of power and can currently be only mounted on battleships. It is capable of causing a moderate amount of structural damge to its target and killing average humans in a seven hundred meter radius of the target piont, enough to wipe out the crew of many escorts or cripple a cruiser in a single shot.

that sounds an awful lot like the gravitation hyper battle-cruiser would be packing battleship weight short range macro cannon batteries. if that's the case? cripple a cruiser in one hit to the hull is not an exaggeration. Damage 6 at pen 4.4, meaning a cruiser with it's shields down would be brought to about half hp. I'm not sure how many it could mount, but going by what other battlecruisers carry, 12 on the low end, 20 on the high end, depending if BB guns take more slots.

so it would be ship doing between 72 to 120 damage a volley at a pen that would be doing solid damage to anything up to grand cruiser weigh. On a ship that is deployed in squadrons of six. They may be a bit fragile, but when a squadron of them is putting out 432 to 720 damage at pen 4.4 that kinda matters a bit less.


so in short, while I think the fragility is a concern, I think we may be underestimating just how devastatingly potent they would be in a brawl.
 
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that sounds an awful lot like the gravitation hyper battle-cruiser would be packing battleship weight short range macro cannon batteries. if that's the case? cripple a cruiser in one hit to the hull is not an exaggeration. Damage 6 at pen 4.4, meaning a cruiser with it's shields down would be brought to about half hp. I'm not sure how many it could mount, but going by what other battlecruisers carry, 12 on the low end, 20 on the high end, depending if BB guns take more slots.
I think you missed that it's a heavy cruiser not a battlecruiser. Heavy cruisers have slots for 45 battleship weapons as it is. Macrocannons take 1 slot. Lances of the same size category count as 3 slots. Spinal weapons count as 21 macrocannon slots. Just mounting all macrocannons would give it better output than you're speculating without sacrificing durability.
 
@Enjou @Nurgle

To help make the case for having Rotbart help out with the anti-psyker training, here's a breakdown of the crit chance from it in all plausible cases.

@Durin, would it be possible to give us the numerical bonus from any traits applicable to this for
  1. Jane
  2. Rotbart

Base success chance 30%

Rotbart stat bonus = 30
Palace bonus = 5
Jane stat bonus = 28

Total bonus to roll with both doing action AND DD applied = 30 + 5 + 28 + 20 + (Jane and Rotbart's trait bonus if any) = 83 + ??
Total bonus to roll with both doing action, no DD = 30 + 5 + 28 + (Jane and Rotbart's trait bonus if any) = 63 + ??
Total bonus with only Jane doing action, DD = 48 + ?
Total bonus with only Jane doing action, no DD = 28 + ?
DC = 70

To crit, must beat DC by 75 as well, total must therefore be 145 or higher. For greater crit, must beat DC by 125, total must be 195 or higher.

Jane and Rotbart, with DD:
Total = 83 + ?? + d100
Crit on roll of 62 or higher, decreasing by 1 for each +1 from traits Jane/Rotbart have. 1% chance of greater crit (nat 100 only), unless Jane and Rotbart's combined trait bonus is above 12, in which case it increases by 1 for each 1 above 12 it is. If this is the case, 1% chance for perfect crit as well (nat 100 only). Very good chance of crit, significantly above 50% if Ridcully reroll is applied.

Jane and Rotbart, without DD:
Total = 63 + ?? + d100
Crit on roll of 82 or higher, decreasing by 1 for each +1 from traits Jane/Rotbart have. 1% chance of greater crit (nat 100 only), unless Jane and Rotbart's combined trait bonus is above 32, in which case if increasing by 1 for each 1 above it it is. In this case, 1% chance for perfect crit as well (nat 100 only). Reasonable chance of crit, likely over 50% if a Ridcully reroll is applied.

Jane only, with DD:
Total = 48 + ? + d100
Crit on roll of 97 or higher, decreasing by 1 for each +1 from traits Jane has. 1% chance of greater crit (nat 100 only). Still a low chance of critting with a Ridcully reroll applied.

Jane only, no DD:
Total = 28 + ? + d100
Crit only on nat. 100 unless Jane's trait bonus is 17 or higher, in which case crit on 1 lower for each 1 above +17 Jane's trait bonus is. In this case, 1% chance of greater crit (nat 100 only). Very low chance of critting even with Ridcully reroll applied.

As you can see, doing this year 2 with both of them and a double down has a very good chance of critting, while a crit is almost impossible without it. Given how important anti-psyker work is and will continue to be, I view delays in getting other stuff out as being well worth it
 
Okay administrative shake up flavor text is inconsistently recorded, so anyone choosing that might not know where we currently stand with that. started at 62.5% efficiency with a 40% success chance, decreasing 5% per success, in turn 103.

103, 1 success, and 1 crit success for 64% and 30%.

104, 1 success for 64.5% and 25%.

105, 1 success for 65% and 20%.

106, 1 crit success for 66% and 15%.

115, 2 successes for 67% and 5%

119, 1 success for 67.5% and 0%.

This should be where we stand currently. With 67.5% efficiency instead of 62.5% with a 0% natural success chance. With bonuses, we have a 30% chance on the first roll. No rerolls this turn, but 45% on a reroll.


@Durin
1) is our admin bonus currently 67.5%?
2) how high can it get?
1. no 69
2. 75
@Durin what exactly would a pure fortress starfort do? the other designs I can get but i'm not sure what pure fortress means in this context.
sacrificing some guns for better defences, desnigned to be almos impossible to capautre or destroy
@Durin
1 Would it be better to sound out about asking to use two of the minor favors or can we just wait till the High council meeting?
2 what other techs do we have would be considered Basic?
1. just wait
2. not going to make a list
 
I think you missed that it's a heavy cruiser not a battlecruiser. Heavy cruisers have slots for 45 battleship weapons as it is. Macrocannons take 1 slot. Lances of the same size category count as 3 slots. Spinal weapons count as 21 macrocannon slots. Just mounting all macrocannons would give it better output than you're speculating without sacrificing durability.

I did indeed miss that it was a heavy cruiser. ok so that menas whatever it looks like it's not just going to a ship with BB grade guns. we have the Landsknecht heavy cruser that mounts 45 short range BB guns. maybe it's a special weapon like the phased cannons? or maybe i'm underestimating it and it's DR guns?
 
@Durin
1. Since this topic is coming up, what would be the niche of the Graviton Heavy Cruiser? Some people seem to think it would be rather useless, but I don't think the design would have been proposed if it was useless.
 
@Durin similar question to enjous, what exactly the Graviton Heavy Cruiser be using? would it be DR guns or something custom?

I would assume these:

Well of Urd Graviton Weapon- This large design requires a massive amount of power and can currently be only mounted on battleships. It is capable of causing a moderate amount of structural damge to its target and killing average humans in a seven hundred meter radius of the target piont, enough to wipe out the crew of many escorts or cripple a cruiser in a single shot.

So looking at this, I think that the Graviton Heavy Cruiser would best be used as an escort killer. While more vulnerable than most Heavy Cruisers, it would still be more survivable against escorts than other escorts are, and given the fleet composition of most of the enemies in the region...
 
How is this different from the cistron creation process? Does it make it quicker to convert by reducing the entire process down to the implantation of a single device? Is it superior or inferior to cistron creation? This is relevant information because cistrons are Mechanicus agents.

Also, it would definitely be useful against Chaos. Like, take some random Chaos citizen off the street and put an MMD in him. He, an Abomination factory worker, consciously believes himself to be working hard to gain favour from the bosses, all while subconsciously hoping to get trusted enough to get access to the reactor where he'll blow it up. You might think the Abomination stuff would override the MMD, but it wouldn't. Why? Because Chaos works not only on a conscious level, but also on a subconscious level. (This is how it manages to corrupt some people, by subconsciously making them do pro-Chaos stuff even as their consciousness is unaware of it.) The guy's consciousness may belong to the Abomination, but because of the MMD's thought-changing influence, the guy's subconscious would belong to Tzeentch/Malal/both.

Alternatively, you could have the subconscious stuff remain aligned to the same Chaos God as the consciousness, but make it do different things. For an example, put it in a Khornate guy. Khornates subconsciously want to fight, and the MMD doesn't change that. What it does instead is to make it so that instead of the Khornate developing a deep-seated hatred for Callamus, it instead develops a deep-seated hatred for Abominites or something. Then, once the Khornate becomes really high-ranked in his army, he leads an invasion of Abomination territory instead of Callamus territory.

tl;dr: The MMD would either change a person's subconscious allegiance to another Chaos God, or keep it in-line with the conscious allegiance but change the specifics of what they do.
Sorry for the delay.

No they're Callaxis Mechanicum agents, not something common all around and even in Callaxis they're rare (requiring very old and hidden cogitators).

Even then the big difference is that until activated Cistrons are well...sleeper agents.

They're not automatically working towards a goal subconsciously, its just their original affiliation and personality is suppressed until activated or the conditioning starts to break down (you can get fun games out of that.)

By contrast this allows the agent to...well continue to be working towards the goal of its true affiliation without something being noticeably off so long as the person is carefully selected. If done overtly a person will literally be doing one thing, but believing another, but that's risky for a number of reasons.

I guess I'd say its more flexible, but it can also be detected easier if you know what you're looking for/the conditioning is too overt.

You do realise you'd need to capture them alive and then put them through the reconditioning process...We do capture people, but only for as long as is needed to throw em to the Sirens.

And yeah it can change people subconsciously...but the chaos memetic subconcious reconditioning is stronger...its chaos which has access to souls. It wins these kinda duels 9.99/10. It just rewrites or uses the reconditioning for its own benefit.

Your first basically reinforces the chaos infection, which usually isn't a good idea. If nothing else because you probably have to think far too much like a chaos cultist to be able to get it done in a way that isn't instantly obvious. I mean it could work theoretically, but you'd need to kidnap high ranking chaos personnel, or kidnap hundreds of thousands of mooks at which point something is either going to go horribly wrong or they're going to get noticed.

The second is relying on manipulating chaos to do what you want...which has also never ended badly. Ok I'm being snide there, it can work, but again, chaos has access to people's souls directly. Theoretically it could work, but more likely nothing happens, and again...you need capture chaos alive and put them through the process.

I left how long and strenuous it is vague, but if Cistrons are any indicator it's at least a relatively long and complex process.

I think you should have it so that this thing is easily defeated by smearing some kind of cheap liquid or oily substance on the armour. This thing seems like a vortex grenade but without any downsides, so giving it an easy counter would balance it out.
So no weakness at all then or something everyone uses and thus making them useless?

Well if it is it is.

Personally I wanna find out what a missile suit is, because if its literal that sounds awesome :D

As for discovery by a daemon, I doubt it. Purely material tech isn't really something that warp creatures have innate influence with/over. The daemon would be able to tell that a person's subconscious is geared more or less in a specific direction, but not why. If the effect was caused by warptech or some psychic power then it could detect the true source of the compulsion, but since it's not, it'd think it's just the subconscious is compelling itself.
Yah, but they literally in the head can view the soul and can be rather protective of their property.

Sudden unexplained changes after they vanished for a while are kinda noticeable.
 
It might also work as an attack craft killer. .7 km radius sphere of death for human analogs is a pretty significant volume, and attack craft are likely significantly more vulnerable to the structural damage effects...
 
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