Direct person would probably leave us in a bad mood for the subsequent meetings, but give more info. The more circumspect the less likely we are to be annoyed(and thus less than diplomatic), but the more likely we both come away with the completely wrong message after dancing around because they're looking at the completely wrong set of diplomatic signals from different cultures.
Burden of the Emerald Empire (A Legend of the Five Rings Tale)
- Thread starter gman391
- Start date
- Fantasy
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
I meant that like she was a Viking Warrior women, not a literal daughter of Odin.
Then again I could just be conflating pre-communist Russia and the Norse, since my actual knowledge of history in either subject is lacking.
What is Hisao's opinion on Gaijin in general anyway? I've been guessing he could take them or leave them without much concern, but is that true?
Also the I just noticed that inviting the Gaijin to our court actually raised the Opinion of the Crab, why was that? I sorta understand why the Mantis and the Unicorn went up, but why the Crab?
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No while Bogodana is a warrior woman, the Pelmyrians are more pre Christian Russia in character.
Like most Rokugani, Hisao doesn't really like foreigners, at all. However, he's pragmatic enough to understand that sometimes you need to talk to foreigners instead of just telling them to stay on their side of the line.
Crab have heard rumours of foreign jade stocks, and hope that this presages some sort of treaty where they can get even more jade, they're wrong, but that's the hope.
Year 5: Winter Court II
-Bogadana the Golden
You don't know what you expected. The tall muscled warrior woman who only barely consent to wear a kimono like a proper person, with hair brighter then the sun, was not someone you would expect to find praying at the shrines. Yet, when asked where to meet, this is where Bogadana had requested it to take place. So here you were in the small (yet somehow still larger than some villages) section of the castle set aside for the literal thousands of gods that the Empire followed. In many ways the gaijin should profane such a place with her very presence.
Yet, you find her sitting in a lotus position at the foot of Osano-Wo's shrine looking up at him with a smile.
"Ambassador" you say.
She gets up and kowtows as is proper.
"Emperor of the Rokugani."
Her thick accent makes it hard to understand her, but at least she's trying. After a moment you ask her to rise. Not for the first time you wonder how Hida got all the way to Pelmyr
"I admit to some surprise to requesting to meet here Ambassador." You say.
"In the land of Pelmyr all negotiations are done under the sight of the gods, so that oath breakers will be broken in turn by their wrath. We are in your lands, but your gods speak to mine, of this I do not doubt."
You could think of a half dozen heresies in that statement...but gaijin, let it go Hisao.
"We know little of the Pelmyrian gods, although their king is a Perun?"
"Yes, Perun the Tsar of Thunder. He too watches this meeting and will judge." Bogadana says.
There is no fear in her eyes, but then you have none either. Lord Sun and Lady Moon blessed your rule, and your aunt was reborn of Lady Sun. The gods favour you as a true Rokugani.
"Judge what?" You ask.
"Of whether we deal in falsehood or not. There are no secrets to the gods" Bogadana says.
"Indeed" You say.
Now, she'll probably talk about the gods meeting in friendship and...
"The Tsar wishes to make common cause with you" Bogadana says bluntly.
"...Pardon?" You say.
There is bluntness and then there is...what ever this is.
Bogadana waves her arms. "We are in the sight of the gods, what use is there to hide behind fancy words and forms? We have heard word of the rigid honour of the Rokugani, and of their loyalty. The Tsar believes that such things are worth having in this world"
"We have always been in this world." You say.
The woman shrugs.
"Old tales say you closed your lands when your Empress was slain out of grief, and then when the black riders returned, you saw no reason to open them. You have seen a reason to look out, a great evil to slay, so the shaman say. Yet the Tsar sees another evil, the Yodotai marching on our lands and yours. We could fight you for the city, and win, but then the Ivindi, the Senpet and the Yodotai would fall on us in turn like starving wolves on a wounded stag. Better then, to work with you, and gain friendship, then to demand you give up your spoils as if we were your spouse, and you had spent too many hours playing Chapayev at the Sauna. One may work for us, the other sees as empty handed fools searching for a fox."
"So the Tsar wishes us to have the city?" You ask.
"The Tsar wishes to help you keep the city in exchange for special treatment in it, and perhaps, opening your lands up to our merchants. Silk, Spice and Gold you have aplenty it is said, but Amber, Oil, and Wax? These things you have little of in comparison. Why not have our two people make each other happy?" she asks.
A part of you wants to yell at her and storm out. You are no merchant, no simple half person to be swayed by such things. Does she have any idea how offensive it is to insinuate you are? What stops you is the fact, that she likely doesn't. To her this is being polite.
Support of the Pelmyrians in exchange for letting them have a district or something in Medinaat al Salam and trade into your own lands. The former, you don't terribly hate, let them come to some foreign site and do what they will, but to let trade missions in to the Emerald Empire proper? No, the Crane and Lion would kill themselves first.
"I will consider your offer in the spirit is meant." You say at last.
"That is all I ask, summon me again here, if you are willing to take the Tsar's kindness." Bogadana says simply. She kowtows and then leaves.
You look up at Osano-wo no kami, what would he have done? You wonder that for a long time.
-----------------
In comparison to Bogadana, the Senpet meets in a much more...common setting. Having been brought to you amongst the Gardens of the Crane, the pair of you walk in silence for a long time. Both of you admiring the immaculate beauty of the the trees, the plants and yes even a few hardy flowers bred to survive the winters.
Ahmes himself is wrapped up in a number of thick cloaks, clearly used to more...hot weather. The World's Spine Mountains protect Rokugan from the desert winds, and the cold winters come down from the Yobanjin high lands all the same. Still, the man waits to speak, perhaps knowing is place, or perhaps trying to put you in yours? It is hard to say. The Senpet are said to be incredibly arrogant. A distant part of you wonders if that's not irony given how often various samurai call each other arrogant.
Finally, perhaps motivated by the fact that he's freezing Ahmes speaks. "It is truly wonderful what your servants have done here, with so little to make something so great. Yet, this was done over how many years?"
"Centuries." You say.
"Centuries of work to get this one part of the world perfect. Imagine if they had spent their time doing something else? A true tragedy indeed. The Pharaoh has long known of the Rokugani and respected their wisdom in looking within towards their ancestors."
"Is that so? I suppose I'll take his respect with thanks." you say.
Ahmes looks like you had struck him.
"Emperor, that is...impious amongst my people." He says at last.
"My apologies, I know little of the Senpet." You say smoothly.
"That is so, and that is not a bad thing, you need know little when you follow your purpose in life. Yet now, you strike out in apparent madness. Why?"
"It was no madness, a foe of ours attacked us, and we fought back."
"Yet would that foe be a foe if not for your words?" He says.
The paternal condescension drips from his mouth without realizing it. A father chiding a child for not talking to his siblings...how dare he think so little. The Shadow Dragon had done much to your family, kidnapping your grandfather, fighting your father, and the assassination attempts on you...
"...Before we even began preparations for war, Ambassador, our foe attempted to assassinate me" You say icily.
Ahmes blinks apparently not expecting you to retort thus.
"I see...in any event, the Emerald Empire would do well to leave the city, the last Sultan fled to us after the coup, it would be a simple matter to install him again, naturally with a few supports...and the Emerald empire having due consideration for its efforts."
"Due consideration?" You ask.
"You gave him his throne back, no doubt he would be grateful" Ahmes says evasively.
Well its, a more subtle attempt to buy you off than Bogadana's had been. You'll give him that much.
"Why should this Sultan regain his throne? It is not he who fought for it, but my armies, my family that did so." You ask.
"Emperor, surely you see that Medinaat al Salaam is too critical to be allowed to exist as anything other than itself, all the world's trade goes through the Jewel, to let the Emerald Empire crush our people's livelihoods...no the Pharaoh cannot see the good in that. It is understandable that you feel you have earned it...but what is earned by the khopesh is lost to the khopesh" Ahmes says.
"You would threaten me inside my own Empire?" You ask.
"Of course not, it is a common saying amongst the Senpet, that is all."
"And what do the Senpet get out of installing the Sultan?" You ask.
"We get a restoration to the status-quo which was in our favour." Ahmes says simply.
You roll around what he said about tradition and everything else. In essence, he wants you to install the Sultan in exchange for some sort of massive lump sum payment, and then stay in the Emerald Empire, if not for the bribe it would almost be attractive. As it is, you find yourself wondering why if this city was so damned important none of them fought the Shadow Dragon.
The answer of course is that none of them wanted to show weakness to each other, damned gaijin.
"I will consider your words Ambassador" You say after a moment.
The conversation ends, and you spend a while in the gardens before Ahmes begs leave to go dethaw. You give it to him.
-------------------------------
Suetionus meets you over tea, although he looks distinctly uncomfortable at the rice cakes in front of him. He dutifully eats one, although it clearly doesn't agree with him.
"You have a lovely castle, Emperor, even if I rather wish that the white haired guardians of yours were a little less...restrained about things."
"We are taught to restrain ourselves for the good of social harmony Ambassador" You say.
He nods. "Social harmony is valuable in its own right, but showing your feelings also has value, in any event, I will be glad to write down the sights of this land for my people we are inveterate readers of history you see."
"And what will you record?"
"That this is as fine a land as there can be, and it is a shame that it is so far from the light of the Ten." He answers.
"The Ten, your gods I assume"
"Aye" He agrees.
He doesn't mention that their chief god is named Conquest, he doesn't need to, you know it all too well.
"So what differs from the Yodotai in these lands?" Yo ask.
"A few things your lack of elections being one of them." He comments.
What like the Mantis Pirates?
"Elections? I thought you had an Emperor?"
Suetionus nods.
"Aye, but Emperors are made and unmade by the will of the Ten, other positions though, the Senate decides that"
"I see."
You didn't, it sounded like a terribly unstable system, but then, they were the aggressively expansionist power, so maybe it worked out somehow?
"In the end, I expect that we have some things in common too, like being warriors first. You ever fought Emperor?" He asks.
"Several times" You say blandly.
Suetionus smiles.
"Good, a young lad should fight from time to time. But not all the time, and not for something he doesn't really have a good hold on anyways."
"Why is that?" You ask.
"Simple, slip right of his fingers, when some other fellow takes a swing, especially if he knows the other fellow will take a swing. Better to give that thing to someone who can take care of it."
"Someone older and wiser in the ways of the world?" You say managing to keep sarcasm from your voice.
He nods.
"Now you getting it. Sure that other fellow might end up taking some lumps but better him than you right?"
"One would think that no lumps is preferable" You answer.
"Ah well, only way that'd happen is if we all got a share of the pie." Suetionus says.
"Sometimes there's not enough pie for everyone."
"Well then that's a shame" Suetionus says.
You don't like threats. Granted, Kavita had more or less done the same thing, but on the other hand you had an army on the Ivory Kingdoms border so it made more no sense. Suetionus though, was just a bully you decided.
"A shame for whom, that is the question Ambassador."
"Right then, now tell me do you know a game called Ludus?" He asks.
The abrupt change of subject leaves you suspicious and unhappy, but you eventually learn the strange game, even managing to beat him a few times. Although his greater experience gives him an edge over all. Eventually he takes his leave, leaving you alone.
----------------------------------
Now of course you were dealing with the rather complicated foreign politics, you had also had to deal with the the internal politics. Broadly, there were the radical traditionalists who wanted to give up Medinaat al Salaam, and consign it to the gaijin. Lead largely by the Lion and Crane.
The pragmatists who wanted to hold the city or at least make sure that whoever got it was friend, but were willing to let go if needs be. The Scorpion and Crab had ended up moving around this pole.
And then there were the diehards, who believed that any soil conquered by the Emerald Empire was now part of it, and should be held at all costs. The Unicorn and Mantis both seemed to gravitate to this idea.
The Dragon and Phoenix formed a fourth faction known as the Emperor's faction, which more or less was 'support the Emperor's decision' The Crab were close to joining this but unwilling to give up the idea of Jade entirely. You'd deal with them in time, but for now you would let Akane work.
-----------------
Ivory Kingdoms: Leave the region and resume friendship.
Pelmyrians: Keep the city but give us a trading quarter and open up trade.
Senpet: Leave the city in exchange for a massive bribe
Yodotai: Leave the city or they'll make you with their army.
But what did you want? And who did you want to work with?
[] Write in
AN: So everyone else has established their position, but now its time for Hisao to set his own position.
Does he want to keep the city? Leave it behind? Tear it down? What of the opening of trade relations?
Once this is done, I'll do a few negotiation rolls.
Now there was some earlier questions about the state of the city...and the update was already pretty long so just going to tell here.
For the city itself, it's not doing well, but its in such a prime position that it will recover within a decade or two. Much of the city population was used to make the golems, and or absorbed into the Shadow Dragon. That said there's still a large minority of natives who came through the Battle of Broken Glass intact, and they're mostly just glad that the sentient eldritch dragon is gone. That said they are uneasy about the Rokugani who are very strange and at once very complex and simple.
Paneki is camped out for several reasons. After finding the Golem production facility he also found a decently sized set of prisoners who were liberated in the fight. But he lacks the means to get them back to Medinaat al Salaam. (The Eight Banners Army was already on a logistical shoestring by this point) so he conquered a small region and has set about preparing for when supplies can get through the harsh desert winter winds.
(In secret communiques, Paneki reveals that he is also hunting down the alchemist who oversaw the golemn production process, believing him to be Quolat but it is slow going)
With centuries of isolationism, the Kasuga don't really have advice beyond 'for the love of all that is good don't fight all of them' so Hisao is flying somewhat blind with this write in.
You don't know what you expected. The tall muscled warrior woman who only barely consent to wear a kimono like a proper person, with hair brighter then the sun, was not someone you would expect to find praying at the shrines. Yet, when asked where to meet, this is where Bogadana had requested it to take place. So here you were in the small (yet somehow still larger than some villages) section of the castle set aside for the literal thousands of gods that the Empire followed. In many ways the gaijin should profane such a place with her very presence.
Yet, you find her sitting in a lotus position at the foot of Osano-Wo's shrine looking up at him with a smile.
"Ambassador" you say.
She gets up and kowtows as is proper.
"Emperor of the Rokugani."
Her thick accent makes it hard to understand her, but at least she's trying. After a moment you ask her to rise. Not for the first time you wonder how Hida got all the way to Pelmyr
"I admit to some surprise to requesting to meet here Ambassador." You say.
"In the land of Pelmyr all negotiations are done under the sight of the gods, so that oath breakers will be broken in turn by their wrath. We are in your lands, but your gods speak to mine, of this I do not doubt."
You could think of a half dozen heresies in that statement...but gaijin, let it go Hisao.
"We know little of the Pelmyrian gods, although their king is a Perun?"
"Yes, Perun the Tsar of Thunder. He too watches this meeting and will judge." Bogadana says.
There is no fear in her eyes, but then you have none either. Lord Sun and Lady Moon blessed your rule, and your aunt was reborn of Lady Sun. The gods favour you as a true Rokugani.
"Judge what?" You ask.
"Of whether we deal in falsehood or not. There are no secrets to the gods" Bogadana says.
"Indeed" You say.
Now, she'll probably talk about the gods meeting in friendship and...
"The Tsar wishes to make common cause with you" Bogadana says bluntly.
"...Pardon?" You say.
There is bluntness and then there is...what ever this is.
Bogadana waves her arms. "We are in the sight of the gods, what use is there to hide behind fancy words and forms? We have heard word of the rigid honour of the Rokugani, and of their loyalty. The Tsar believes that such things are worth having in this world"
"We have always been in this world." You say.
The woman shrugs.
"Old tales say you closed your lands when your Empress was slain out of grief, and then when the black riders returned, you saw no reason to open them. You have seen a reason to look out, a great evil to slay, so the shaman say. Yet the Tsar sees another evil, the Yodotai marching on our lands and yours. We could fight you for the city, and win, but then the Ivindi, the Senpet and the Yodotai would fall on us in turn like starving wolves on a wounded stag. Better then, to work with you, and gain friendship, then to demand you give up your spoils as if we were your spouse, and you had spent too many hours playing Chapayev at the Sauna. One may work for us, the other sees as empty handed fools searching for a fox."
"So the Tsar wishes us to have the city?" You ask.
"The Tsar wishes to help you keep the city in exchange for special treatment in it, and perhaps, opening your lands up to our merchants. Silk, Spice and Gold you have aplenty it is said, but Amber, Oil, and Wax? These things you have little of in comparison. Why not have our two people make each other happy?" she asks.
A part of you wants to yell at her and storm out. You are no merchant, no simple half person to be swayed by such things. Does she have any idea how offensive it is to insinuate you are? What stops you is the fact, that she likely doesn't. To her this is being polite.
Support of the Pelmyrians in exchange for letting them have a district or something in Medinaat al Salam and trade into your own lands. The former, you don't terribly hate, let them come to some foreign site and do what they will, but to let trade missions in to the Emerald Empire proper? No, the Crane and Lion would kill themselves first.
"I will consider your offer in the spirit is meant." You say at last.
"That is all I ask, summon me again here, if you are willing to take the Tsar's kindness." Bogadana says simply. She kowtows and then leaves.
You look up at Osano-wo no kami, what would he have done? You wonder that for a long time.
-----------------
In comparison to Bogadana, the Senpet meets in a much more...common setting. Having been brought to you amongst the Gardens of the Crane, the pair of you walk in silence for a long time. Both of you admiring the immaculate beauty of the the trees, the plants and yes even a few hardy flowers bred to survive the winters.
Ahmes himself is wrapped up in a number of thick cloaks, clearly used to more...hot weather. The World's Spine Mountains protect Rokugan from the desert winds, and the cold winters come down from the Yobanjin high lands all the same. Still, the man waits to speak, perhaps knowing is place, or perhaps trying to put you in yours? It is hard to say. The Senpet are said to be incredibly arrogant. A distant part of you wonders if that's not irony given how often various samurai call each other arrogant.
Finally, perhaps motivated by the fact that he's freezing Ahmes speaks. "It is truly wonderful what your servants have done here, with so little to make something so great. Yet, this was done over how many years?"
"Centuries." You say.
"Centuries of work to get this one part of the world perfect. Imagine if they had spent their time doing something else? A true tragedy indeed. The Pharaoh has long known of the Rokugani and respected their wisdom in looking within towards their ancestors."
"Is that so? I suppose I'll take his respect with thanks." you say.
Ahmes looks like you had struck him.
"Emperor, that is...impious amongst my people." He says at last.
"My apologies, I know little of the Senpet." You say smoothly.
"That is so, and that is not a bad thing, you need know little when you follow your purpose in life. Yet now, you strike out in apparent madness. Why?"
"It was no madness, a foe of ours attacked us, and we fought back."
"Yet would that foe be a foe if not for your words?" He says.
The paternal condescension drips from his mouth without realizing it. A father chiding a child for not talking to his siblings...how dare he think so little. The Shadow Dragon had done much to your family, kidnapping your grandfather, fighting your father, and the assassination attempts on you...
"...Before we even began preparations for war, Ambassador, our foe attempted to assassinate me" You say icily.
Ahmes blinks apparently not expecting you to retort thus.
"I see...in any event, the Emerald Empire would do well to leave the city, the last Sultan fled to us after the coup, it would be a simple matter to install him again, naturally with a few supports...and the Emerald empire having due consideration for its efforts."
"Due consideration?" You ask.
"You gave him his throne back, no doubt he would be grateful" Ahmes says evasively.
Well its, a more subtle attempt to buy you off than Bogadana's had been. You'll give him that much.
"Why should this Sultan regain his throne? It is not he who fought for it, but my armies, my family that did so." You ask.
"Emperor, surely you see that Medinaat al Salaam is too critical to be allowed to exist as anything other than itself, all the world's trade goes through the Jewel, to let the Emerald Empire crush our people's livelihoods...no the Pharaoh cannot see the good in that. It is understandable that you feel you have earned it...but what is earned by the khopesh is lost to the khopesh" Ahmes says.
"You would threaten me inside my own Empire?" You ask.
"Of course not, it is a common saying amongst the Senpet, that is all."
"And what do the Senpet get out of installing the Sultan?" You ask.
"We get a restoration to the status-quo which was in our favour." Ahmes says simply.
You roll around what he said about tradition and everything else. In essence, he wants you to install the Sultan in exchange for some sort of massive lump sum payment, and then stay in the Emerald Empire, if not for the bribe it would almost be attractive. As it is, you find yourself wondering why if this city was so damned important none of them fought the Shadow Dragon.
The answer of course is that none of them wanted to show weakness to each other, damned gaijin.
"I will consider your words Ambassador" You say after a moment.
The conversation ends, and you spend a while in the gardens before Ahmes begs leave to go dethaw. You give it to him.
-------------------------------
Suetionus meets you over tea, although he looks distinctly uncomfortable at the rice cakes in front of him. He dutifully eats one, although it clearly doesn't agree with him.
"You have a lovely castle, Emperor, even if I rather wish that the white haired guardians of yours were a little less...restrained about things."
"We are taught to restrain ourselves for the good of social harmony Ambassador" You say.
He nods. "Social harmony is valuable in its own right, but showing your feelings also has value, in any event, I will be glad to write down the sights of this land for my people we are inveterate readers of history you see."
"And what will you record?"
"That this is as fine a land as there can be, and it is a shame that it is so far from the light of the Ten." He answers.
"The Ten, your gods I assume"
"Aye" He agrees.
He doesn't mention that their chief god is named Conquest, he doesn't need to, you know it all too well.
"So what differs from the Yodotai in these lands?" Yo ask.
"A few things your lack of elections being one of them." He comments.
What like the Mantis Pirates?
"Elections? I thought you had an Emperor?"
Suetionus nods.
"Aye, but Emperors are made and unmade by the will of the Ten, other positions though, the Senate decides that"
"I see."
You didn't, it sounded like a terribly unstable system, but then, they were the aggressively expansionist power, so maybe it worked out somehow?
"In the end, I expect that we have some things in common too, like being warriors first. You ever fought Emperor?" He asks.
"Several times" You say blandly.
Suetionus smiles.
"Good, a young lad should fight from time to time. But not all the time, and not for something he doesn't really have a good hold on anyways."
"Why is that?" You ask.
"Simple, slip right of his fingers, when some other fellow takes a swing, especially if he knows the other fellow will take a swing. Better to give that thing to someone who can take care of it."
"Someone older and wiser in the ways of the world?" You say managing to keep sarcasm from your voice.
He nods.
"Now you getting it. Sure that other fellow might end up taking some lumps but better him than you right?"
"One would think that no lumps is preferable" You answer.
"Ah well, only way that'd happen is if we all got a share of the pie." Suetionus says.
"Sometimes there's not enough pie for everyone."
"Well then that's a shame" Suetionus says.
You don't like threats. Granted, Kavita had more or less done the same thing, but on the other hand you had an army on the Ivory Kingdoms border so it made more no sense. Suetionus though, was just a bully you decided.
"A shame for whom, that is the question Ambassador."
"Right then, now tell me do you know a game called Ludus?" He asks.
The abrupt change of subject leaves you suspicious and unhappy, but you eventually learn the strange game, even managing to beat him a few times. Although his greater experience gives him an edge over all. Eventually he takes his leave, leaving you alone.
----------------------------------
Now of course you were dealing with the rather complicated foreign politics, you had also had to deal with the the internal politics. Broadly, there were the radical traditionalists who wanted to give up Medinaat al Salaam, and consign it to the gaijin. Lead largely by the Lion and Crane.
The pragmatists who wanted to hold the city or at least make sure that whoever got it was friend, but were willing to let go if needs be. The Scorpion and Crab had ended up moving around this pole.
And then there were the diehards, who believed that any soil conquered by the Emerald Empire was now part of it, and should be held at all costs. The Unicorn and Mantis both seemed to gravitate to this idea.
The Dragon and Phoenix formed a fourth faction known as the Emperor's faction, which more or less was 'support the Emperor's decision' The Crab were close to joining this but unwilling to give up the idea of Jade entirely. You'd deal with them in time, but for now you would let Akane work.
-----------------
Ivory Kingdoms: Leave the region and resume friendship.
Pelmyrians: Keep the city but give us a trading quarter and open up trade.
Senpet: Leave the city in exchange for a massive bribe
Yodotai: Leave the city or they'll make you with their army.
But what did you want? And who did you want to work with?
[] Write in
AN: So everyone else has established their position, but now its time for Hisao to set his own position.
Does he want to keep the city? Leave it behind? Tear it down? What of the opening of trade relations?
Once this is done, I'll do a few negotiation rolls.
Now there was some earlier questions about the state of the city...and the update was already pretty long so just going to tell here.
For the city itself, it's not doing well, but its in such a prime position that it will recover within a decade or two. Much of the city population was used to make the golems, and or absorbed into the Shadow Dragon. That said there's still a large minority of natives who came through the Battle of Broken Glass intact, and they're mostly just glad that the sentient eldritch dragon is gone. That said they are uneasy about the Rokugani who are very strange and at once very complex and simple.
Paneki is camped out for several reasons. After finding the Golem production facility he also found a decently sized set of prisoners who were liberated in the fight. But he lacks the means to get them back to Medinaat al Salaam. (The Eight Banners Army was already on a logistical shoestring by this point) so he conquered a small region and has set about preparing for when supplies can get through the harsh desert winter winds.
(In secret communiques, Paneki reveals that he is also hunting down the alchemist who oversaw the golemn production process, believing him to be Quolat but it is slow going)
With centuries of isolationism, the Kasuga don't really have advice beyond 'for the love of all that is good don't fight all of them' so Hisao is flying somewhat blind with this write in.
- Location
- Leeds
Well lets just see.
:O
Damn thats arrogant. Step aside Rokugan.
This is probably something we want to understand before we
I find it funny that suggesting a bribe actually hurt his position.
Here is my thoughts, if the Sultan wants his city back, we are not necessarily opposed, however he should come and ask the emperor. What I think our ideal is that we end this with Medina al Salat ends as a puppet state under Rokugani control rather than Senet.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
So... things I see...
- I admit it, I straight-up don't like the Senpet or the Yodotai. The Senpet are obnoxious and I don't want to give them anything. The Yodotai are a threat and I'd like to see some of their power broken.
- I appreciate the Pelmyrians and the Ivory Kingdom. They are both coming to us openly, honestly, and trying to retain friendship.
If I could simply have whatever I want, my optimal outcome would be something like...
- Establish a good trading relationship with the Pelmyrians that's based around Medinaat al Salaam. They aren't allowed into Rokugan proper, though.
- Assuage the fears of the Ivory Kingdoms, possibly by pulling back some, possibly by providing some form of assurance. As long as we're opening up trade a bit, try to develop better relations with them as well.
- Supplant the Senpet to a degree. Basically, they had a client state, they utterly failed to support it, they shouldn't just get it back. Don't do enough damage to them to force them to take serious action, though. They're presenting a front right now, and I suspect that they're prepared to be satisfied with less than their initial offer.
- Take a few chunks out of the Yodotai, but not in a way that will make them come after us.
@gman391 - are the captives that Paneki found Rokugani, or of some other nation? That has a rather significant impact on what we can reasonably do with them.
...and it looks like every one of the foreign powers matches or beats us in military, and the only one that loses to us on economy is the Yodotai. That's troublesome. Basically, the only thing that kept them from taking out the Shadow Dragon was detente, and the only thing that would keep them from doing the same to us is... well, basically the same. Also, the city itself is a burned-out husk right now. For the next five to ten years, it's going to be nothing but a load on the finances and the military, and that's *without* the fractious foreigners. There's a very real possibility that we spend a bunch of time and effort and money rebuilding the place, and *then* have it taken from us by force. That's... not desirable. In particular, I don't think we can afford to keep the city without getting at least grudging buy-in from, say, the Senpet and the Ivory Kingdoms.
On the external side of things, then, I see a space for techniques that might work - or, at least, would let us drag some benefit out of this without massively over-extending ourselves.
- Take a modified version of the Senpet offer, where we let the Sultan back in, we get a Rokugani quarter of the city and possibly some other useful influence bits, and we get them to pitch in some economic aid at rebuilding the city in general and our bit in particular. Possibly see if we can work in a bit of extra sauce for the Pelmyrians and/or Ivory Kingdoms as well. this means that the chunk we have left is small enough that no one is going to feel the need to take it from us by main force. It pretty much gives the Senpet what they want, and leaves the Pelmyrians with basically nothing, though, which bugs me.
- Invite the Sultan to come discuss things with us directly, rather than treating him as a puppet state of the Senpet. Give him back his city, but set aside a quarter for *each* of the powers (other than the Yodotai). This reestablishes the status quo to enough of a degree and makes our own chunk small enough that, again, no one's going to be seriously targeting us. It takes some chunks out of the Senpet influence, but doesnt' freeze them out enough to make it worth their while to come after us, and it leaves the place enough of a neutral trading port to keep the Ivory Kingdoms happy. It also turns the city into a central gathering place for working together against the Yodotai, which is the sort of thing that should please the Pelmyrians, while also being a good thing in and of itself. I actually prefer this one, I think - especially since we can sell it internally as "The Yodotai are offensive and a threat to all that is right and good. Medinaat al Salaam is not Rokugan, and while it is not worthless, it is not sacred. We started this war to thwart a threat against the Empire. Now we give away much of the unnecessary territory the war has given us (while keeping some) in order to help thwart another such threat." We don't have to include the bit about "hey, it's mostly useful as a trade hub anyway" at all.
It also also lets us position ourselves diplomatically in a way that should be pleasing to... well, basically everyone other than the Yodotai, really. We came out of our isolation to deal with one threat (that they all know was a threat), and we're only sticking around because of a *different* threat. It's a useful narrative when we're trying to convince people that we're not intending to be a threat to *them*. This is also something we might want to seriously embrace as an overall plan. The Yodotai are an existential threat to basically everybody, and if they are not stopped, they *will* attempt to conquer Rokugan at some point. They've pretty much said so to our faces. This isn't something we can afford to ignore. Honestly, I'd be half-tempted to have their diplomat killed, if I thought we could get away with it. We don't want them knowing anything more about us than they do already.
Of course, there's also theinternal diplomacy to concern ourselves with... but I think that's perhaps grist for another post.
- I admit it, I straight-up don't like the Senpet or the Yodotai. The Senpet are obnoxious and I don't want to give them anything. The Yodotai are a threat and I'd like to see some of their power broken.
- I appreciate the Pelmyrians and the Ivory Kingdom. They are both coming to us openly, honestly, and trying to retain friendship.
If I could simply have whatever I want, my optimal outcome would be something like...
- Establish a good trading relationship with the Pelmyrians that's based around Medinaat al Salaam. They aren't allowed into Rokugan proper, though.
- Assuage the fears of the Ivory Kingdoms, possibly by pulling back some, possibly by providing some form of assurance. As long as we're opening up trade a bit, try to develop better relations with them as well.
- Supplant the Senpet to a degree. Basically, they had a client state, they utterly failed to support it, they shouldn't just get it back. Don't do enough damage to them to force them to take serious action, though. They're presenting a front right now, and I suspect that they're prepared to be satisfied with less than their initial offer.
- Take a few chunks out of the Yodotai, but not in a way that will make them come after us.
@gman391 - are the captives that Paneki found Rokugani, or of some other nation? That has a rather significant impact on what we can reasonably do with them.
...and it looks like every one of the foreign powers matches or beats us in military, and the only one that loses to us on economy is the Yodotai. That's troublesome. Basically, the only thing that kept them from taking out the Shadow Dragon was detente, and the only thing that would keep them from doing the same to us is... well, basically the same. Also, the city itself is a burned-out husk right now. For the next five to ten years, it's going to be nothing but a load on the finances and the military, and that's *without* the fractious foreigners. There's a very real possibility that we spend a bunch of time and effort and money rebuilding the place, and *then* have it taken from us by force. That's... not desirable. In particular, I don't think we can afford to keep the city without getting at least grudging buy-in from, say, the Senpet and the Ivory Kingdoms.
On the external side of things, then, I see a space for techniques that might work - or, at least, would let us drag some benefit out of this without massively over-extending ourselves.
- Take a modified version of the Senpet offer, where we let the Sultan back in, we get a Rokugani quarter of the city and possibly some other useful influence bits, and we get them to pitch in some economic aid at rebuilding the city in general and our bit in particular. Possibly see if we can work in a bit of extra sauce for the Pelmyrians and/or Ivory Kingdoms as well. this means that the chunk we have left is small enough that no one is going to feel the need to take it from us by main force. It pretty much gives the Senpet what they want, and leaves the Pelmyrians with basically nothing, though, which bugs me.
- Invite the Sultan to come discuss things with us directly, rather than treating him as a puppet state of the Senpet. Give him back his city, but set aside a quarter for *each* of the powers (other than the Yodotai). This reestablishes the status quo to enough of a degree and makes our own chunk small enough that, again, no one's going to be seriously targeting us. It takes some chunks out of the Senpet influence, but doesnt' freeze them out enough to make it worth their while to come after us, and it leaves the place enough of a neutral trading port to keep the Ivory Kingdoms happy. It also turns the city into a central gathering place for working together against the Yodotai, which is the sort of thing that should please the Pelmyrians, while also being a good thing in and of itself. I actually prefer this one, I think - especially since we can sell it internally as "The Yodotai are offensive and a threat to all that is right and good. Medinaat al Salaam is not Rokugan, and while it is not worthless, it is not sacred. We started this war to thwart a threat against the Empire. Now we give away much of the unnecessary territory the war has given us (while keeping some) in order to help thwart another such threat." We don't have to include the bit about "hey, it's mostly useful as a trade hub anyway" at all.
It also also lets us position ourselves diplomatically in a way that should be pleasing to... well, basically everyone other than the Yodotai, really. We came out of our isolation to deal with one threat (that they all know was a threat), and we're only sticking around because of a *different* threat. It's a useful narrative when we're trying to convince people that we're not intending to be a threat to *them*. This is also something we might want to seriously embrace as an overall plan. The Yodotai are an existential threat to basically everybody, and if they are not stopped, they *will* attempt to conquer Rokugan at some point. They've pretty much said so to our faces. This isn't something we can afford to ignore. Honestly, I'd be half-tempted to have their diplomat killed, if I thought we could get away with it. We don't want them knowing anything more about us than they do already.
Of course, there's also theinternal diplomacy to concern ourselves with... but I think that's perhaps grist for another post.
What if we copy this and give EVERY nation a trading quarter of their own. That would preserve the independent nature of the city as neutral ground since all sides can gang up on whoever wants to use it for military purposes, with Rokugan collecting taxes for city maintenance?
Sirrocco
Pedantic
It's a possibility, but...
- It means that we're directly responsible for the place, which means that anyone else who wants to control it is basically going to be trying to go through us. At the bare minimum, the Senpet are going to make that attempt at some point, and it likely sets us up to be attacked by the Yodotai before we're really ready to handle it. We might never be able to handle it. It makes us a target, and right now, that's Bad. We have a lot of reforms to make and a lot of upgrades to handle before we're ready to put that kind of a target on our chest.
- It might still not be as much neutral ground as it needs to be. The Rokugani are weird and inflexible, and if we're in charge of things, we're not going to stop trying to force people to bow to Rokugani custom. It'd be a lot better than if we just tried to hold the place without giving chunks of it away, but it's still a matter of us imposing our culture on them - that woudl happen almost no matter who we put in charge.
Now, it does get us a bunch of tax income, sure, and it gives us a bunch more influence, which might be nice once we actually know enough that we can use that influence effectively. It's certainly better than just keeping the place and not divvying out chunks to other folks. It's the sort of play I might go for if we had a significant edge militarily and economically. We don't, though. Right now, we're the weakest empire of the group, and the least well-informed, and the most diplomatically disconnected. I think that trying to hang on to the city as a whole is reaching further than we can handle.
Admittedly, the tax monies are tempting, but I sort of think that we'd be better off focusing on building our own internal economy instead - especially since that tax wouldn't be available for some time, and the troubles would start almost immediately.
Side note: the Yodotai are basically Alexander the Great, except that somehow they're managing to keep doing it for hundreds of years. In the original timeline, they steamroll over the Senpet, take Medinaat al Salaam by force, and then proceed to invade the Emerald Empire with a reasonable degree of success. They're bad news.
- Location
- Leeds
I think we might be able to get more leeway in the Ivory Kingdoms demands by trying to convince them that returning the city wouldn't revert the political situation to what it was before. The Sultan ran to the Senpet, he'll go to the Senpet to get their help to rebuild the city, and the Senpet will see favourable trade deals because of that.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
Honestly if we have to leave the City to another power I'd rather give it to the Ivory Kingdoms, on the grounds that we know about their customs the best, and that they are the ones to be the most nervous since we are the ones closest to their border.
If we do keep the City, we need to put either the Mantis (Trading is Good instead of Bad!) or the Unicorn (Filthy Gaijin are actually People with Unique customs instead of inhuman filth!).
Mechanically the Senpet's bribe while distasteful, would likely give us what we wanted anyway: A chance to refill the Coffers with Gaijin Money.
Kinda want to grant the Pelmyrian's request since they are both asking for the least and were just worried about the Yodotai on their doorstep.
Frankly we don't need to hold the city in order to use it as a trading hub and we were already stretched thin before we attacked the Shadow Dragon.
Alright so for us to hold the city , we would need to rather heavily garrison it. And by people who can restrain their tempers from killing all the foreign merchants who will come to the city to trade. Plus, and I am just assuming here, supplying the Logistics of the city through a rather large desert and potential raiding parties from hostile forces will be a major pain we don't really need.
@gman391 Could Hisao float to Kavita the idea of granting Medinaat al Salaam to the Padishah in exchange for districts in the city for both the Rokugani and the Pelmyrians in exchange of finding out how the Ivory kingdoms would take that offer? Also does the Jewel of the Desert have a Sea-Port? Need to know if we could both help defend and feed the city with the Mantis's navy since they aren't as damaged as a military force.
If we do keep the City, we need to put either the Mantis (Trading is Good instead of Bad!) or the Unicorn (Filthy Gaijin are actually People with Unique customs instead of inhuman filth!).
Mechanically the Senpet's bribe while distasteful, would likely give us what we wanted anyway: A chance to refill the Coffers with Gaijin Money.
Kinda want to grant the Pelmyrian's request since they are both asking for the least and were just worried about the Yodotai on their doorstep.
Frankly we don't need to hold the city in order to use it as a trading hub and we were already stretched thin before we attacked the Shadow Dragon.
Alright so for us to hold the city , we would need to rather heavily garrison it. And by people who can restrain their tempers from killing all the foreign merchants who will come to the city to trade. Plus, and I am just assuming here, supplying the Logistics of the city through a rather large desert and potential raiding parties from hostile forces will be a major pain we don't really need.
@gman391 Could Hisao float to Kavita the idea of granting Medinaat al Salaam to the Padishah in exchange for districts in the city for both the Rokugani and the Pelmyrians in exchange of finding out how the Ivory kingdoms would take that offer? Also does the Jewel of the Desert have a Sea-Port? Need to know if we could both help defend and feed the city with the Mantis's navy since they aren't as damaged as a military force.
@Sirrocco
Most of the captives are former citizens of Medinaat al Salaam with a scattering from other other nations as well. They are reasonably grateful to the Emerald Empire for not letting their souls be consumed to power a war machine.
@veekie
That is one potential option you could go for.
@keenscythe
Yes you could give the city to the Ivory Kingdom, although its not clear Kavita would take it. Medinaat al Salaam has no sea port (A river port yes, and that river is essentially Danube tier when it comes to trade)
With regards to the Ivory Kingdoms, remember the Rokugani have tangled with them before. That is motivating much of the Padishah/Kavita's actions.
Most of the captives are former citizens of Medinaat al Salaam with a scattering from other other nations as well. They are reasonably grateful to the Emerald Empire for not letting their souls be consumed to power a war machine.
@veekie
That is one potential option you could go for.
@keenscythe
Yes you could give the city to the Ivory Kingdom, although its not clear Kavita would take it. Medinaat al Salaam has no sea port (A river port yes, and that river is essentially Danube tier when it comes to trade)
With regards to the Ivory Kingdoms, remember the Rokugani have tangled with them before. That is motivating much of the Padishah/Kavita's actions.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
So, the refugees are basically a humanitarian concern, and they're basically valuable because once we get through the winter, we can get to them back to the city, and we get a fair amount of good diplomacy for it. So... Possibly actually talk with the Ivory Kingdoms abotu this? We're already going to have difficulty getting them enough resources to last through the winter. if we bring the Ivory Kingdoms in on it (and let Paneki know in advance that that's what they're doing) we can reassure them about our lack of long-term interest in fortifying that location, help make sure that the people have the resources they need to make it through the winter and back to their homes, and let the Ivory Kingdom buy a bit of appreciation from the inhabitants of the city as well. Even if they decide not to help, they'll still likely find the offer somewhat reassuring. Of course, we're already in Winter Court, which means that it may be a bit too late to get word back to the kingdoms in time to have them actually turn around and provide humanitarian aid. Ah, well.
A few thoughts on the way I'm seeing things
- None of the current plans involve officially handing the city to the Senpet. Even the Senpet aren't asking us to officially hand the city to them. They're askign us to hand it back to the Sultan, who was the ruler of the city before this all went down, and who happens to be reasonably heavily in the pocket of the Senpet. If we want any other empire to hold it (including us) that's going to involve them having a small army in the city to garrison the place, and it'll interfere with its ability to function as a trade hub and cosmopolitan melting pot. Divvying out foreign quarters to various empires does something very similar, except that it's much smaller, it doesn't take nearly as much garrisoning, and the fact that there's still plenty of city not under control means that the melting pot thing can still happen.
- Normally, chopping the place into chunks would be something that people would fight against tooth and nail, but the city has been pretty much gutted, and also we have military possession of it. The first means that there's no one in any particular spot that would be dispossessed, and the second means that we can do basically whatever we want to to it until and unless someone comes and displaces us with a superior force. We don't need to ask permission for basically anything. At most, all we need is to what the diplomatic situation is likely to look like afterwards if we do it. Personally, I'm shooting for "Everyone finds it acceptable enough that no one significant is going to try to come after us about it." If we want to carve out quarters for the other empires, we can just hand them out before we give the rest of the city back to the Sultan, or give the rest of the city back to the sultan provisionally. It's not like the Sultan has the military force to displace us. Still, it's true that finding out a bit more about what the different empires would think of different options is probably worthwhile. It's possible, for example, that the other empires wouldn't want a city-chunk if they were offered one.
A few thoughts on the way I'm seeing things
- None of the current plans involve officially handing the city to the Senpet. Even the Senpet aren't asking us to officially hand the city to them. They're askign us to hand it back to the Sultan, who was the ruler of the city before this all went down, and who happens to be reasonably heavily in the pocket of the Senpet. If we want any other empire to hold it (including us) that's going to involve them having a small army in the city to garrison the place, and it'll interfere with its ability to function as a trade hub and cosmopolitan melting pot. Divvying out foreign quarters to various empires does something very similar, except that it's much smaller, it doesn't take nearly as much garrisoning, and the fact that there's still plenty of city not under control means that the melting pot thing can still happen.
- Normally, chopping the place into chunks would be something that people would fight against tooth and nail, but the city has been pretty much gutted, and also we have military possession of it. The first means that there's no one in any particular spot that would be dispossessed, and the second means that we can do basically whatever we want to to it until and unless someone comes and displaces us with a superior force. We don't need to ask permission for basically anything. At most, all we need is to what the diplomatic situation is likely to look like afterwards if we do it. Personally, I'm shooting for "Everyone finds it acceptable enough that no one significant is going to try to come after us about it." If we want to carve out quarters for the other empires, we can just hand them out before we give the rest of the city back to the Sultan, or give the rest of the city back to the sultan provisionally. It's not like the Sultan has the military force to displace us. Still, it's true that finding out a bit more about what the different empires would think of different options is probably worthwhile. It's possible, for example, that the other empires wouldn't want a city-chunk if they were offered one.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
Well I am still unsure what to do, so I guess I can do the basic write-ins that are acceptable before they become modified.
[] Leave the region to placate the Ivory Kingdom's Fears
[] Keep the city but give the Pelmyrians, Senpet, Ivory Kingdoms, and the Yodotai a trading district each and open up trade.
-[] Make Governing the city a new Minor Clan's problem
-[] Add Governing the City to a existing clan's duties such as the Tortoise, Mantis, Scorpion, Dragon, or Unicorn.
[] Leave the city to the Senpet's pet sultan in exchange for a massive bribe
[] Try to sell our continued presence in Medinaat al Salaam, as Humanatarian duties. (We did just smash it to pieces, helping to repair the damage and protect the innocent cilivians that remain from starvation, banditry, and/or hostile armies eager to conquer the city a third time seems only fair)
Before we decide to keep the city, what do we have left to tap? The Unicorn and the Lion need to recover, the Crab cannot be spared, I'm not sure if we can trust the Scorpi- Y'know Paneki did say his forces we're better suited for defense, and frankly having a bunch of Intrigue/sabotage specialists to help out whoever we put there does sound handy.
Honestly with the Kasuga saying they are hampered by our isolationism on the matter I would have them be stationed there so they could start catching up on their intrigue.
The Danube-tier river should be big enough to sail on, if we can get ships from the Mantis from our territory to the river. They have already been pushing to both keep the city and open up trade. Dunno if the River in questions comes anywhere near where we need it to though.
Hopefully these should be good "enough" skeletons of write-ins around which we can build an actual plan.
@gman391 Would accepting the Bribe from the Senpet and thus leaving the city (Fulfilling the Request of the Yodotai and the Ivory Kingdoms) with the provision of reserving districts for the Rokugani and the Pelmyrians (Separately of course) as part of the deal, fulfill all the foreign factions demands leaving us only to worry about the internal factions opinions on the matter?
[] Leave the region to placate the Ivory Kingdom's Fears
[] Keep the city but give the Pelmyrians, Senpet, Ivory Kingdoms, and the Yodotai a trading district each and open up trade.
-[] Make Governing the city a new Minor Clan's problem
-[] Add Governing the City to a existing clan's duties such as the Tortoise, Mantis, Scorpion, Dragon, or Unicorn.
[] Leave the city to the Senpet's pet sultan in exchange for a massive bribe
[] Try to sell our continued presence in Medinaat al Salaam, as Humanatarian duties. (We did just smash it to pieces, helping to repair the damage and protect the innocent cilivians that remain from starvation, banditry, and/or hostile armies eager to conquer the city a third time seems only fair)
Before we decide to keep the city, what do we have left to tap? The Unicorn and the Lion need to recover, the Crab cannot be spared, I'm not sure if we can trust the Scorpi- Y'know Paneki did say his forces we're better suited for defense, and frankly having a bunch of Intrigue/sabotage specialists to help out whoever we put there does sound handy.
Honestly with the Kasuga saying they are hampered by our isolationism on the matter I would have them be stationed there so they could start catching up on their intrigue.
The Danube-tier river should be big enough to sail on, if we can get ships from the Mantis from our territory to the river. They have already been pushing to both keep the city and open up trade. Dunno if the River in questions comes anywhere near where we need it to though.
Hopefully these should be good "enough" skeletons of write-ins around which we can build an actual plan.
@gman391 Would accepting the Bribe from the Senpet and thus leaving the city (Fulfilling the Request of the Yodotai and the Ivory Kingdoms) with the provision of reserving districts for the Rokugani and the Pelmyrians (Separately of course) as part of the deal, fulfill all the foreign factions demands leaving us only to worry about the internal factions opinions on the matter?
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
[X] Keep the city but give the Pelmyrians, Senpet, Ivory Kingdoms, and the Yodotai a trading district each and open up trade.
-[X] Add Governing the City to the duties of the Dragon (They are already weird and could use the extra revenue stream)
-[X] Try to sell our continued control of Medinaat al Salaam to the Ivory Kingdoms as Humanitarian duties and to restore order in the town offer exceptions to tariffs if need be to smooth it over.
Is my tentative vote for the moment, although I am welcoming any votes against if they have a better plan.
-[X] Add Governing the City to the duties of the Dragon (They are already weird and could use the extra revenue stream)
-[X] Try to sell our continued control of Medinaat al Salaam to the Ivory Kingdoms as Humanitarian duties and to restore order in the town offer exceptions to tariffs if need be to smooth it over.
Is my tentative vote for the moment, although I am welcoming any votes against if they have a better plan.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Oh, hey! There's an actual vote here. I... missed that for some reason. That cranks up the immediacy a bit. Okay. Lets look at the clans for a moment... because it doesn't matter *what* we do with the city, if it means having everything fall apart back home.
- The Lion(40) and Crane(30) want to get the heck out of the place, and pull back to Rokugan proper, because interacting with the outside leads to Change, and Change Is Bad.
- The Scorpion(25) and Crab(70) "want to hold the city or at least make sure that whoever got it was a friend". More broadly, based on the fact that they're callign themselves the pragmatists, it souns like they mostly want to get somethign out of this adventure, rather than just throwing away our gains.
- The Unicorn(60) and Mantis(35) are declaring that any soil conquered by Rokugan counts as Rokugani soil, and must be defended at all costs.
- The Dragon(55) and Phoenix(60) have out back regardless. The Crab are willing to switch to this faction as long as it doesn't mean losing out on any potential Jade gains. Jade is Really Important to the Crab.
As far as precedents... I think that the "everything we take is sacred soil" is basically untenable as an option. It's not sustainable. It would lock us into being an expansionist power, and we're literally the weakest of the major powers right now. We can't *afford* to be expansionist. "We're going to turn our back on this and pretend that the world outside Rokugan doesn't exist" is also seriously problematic, in the long term if not the short term. The Yodotai are out there, and they will be looking to conquer us some time within the next century or two, if we don't find a way to make them stop before they get to us.
So, out of that... the Crab aren't really an issue, but if we don't get *something* worthwhile out of this, the Scorpion are going to be seriously upset. We've got the Lion/Crane on one side of the ideological divide, and the Mantis on the other, and one of them is going to be unhappy... but I'm not seeing anything here that changes my rough overall plan described above.
So, @gman391, I have a tentative plan, and a rough idea of how various people are likely to react to it, and I want to know if that's plausible
[x] Plan Carve Out
-[x] We tell the representatives from the Senpet, the Ivory Kingdoms, and the Pelmyrians that we really did come out here just to end the threat of the Shadow Dragon (you know - the one who converted many of the inhabitants to Glass Golems) and that we might have considered just going home, except that the Yodotai are an existential threat to basically everyone, and they are absolutely going to eventually try to conquer the city by force and then probably come after us after that, and we're not okay with that. For the first time in basically forever, we want allies, and we want to set things up so that we're all working together against this threat.
-[x] Also, the city is devastated, and it could use some help getting back on its feet - preferably help from multiple directions. It certainly doesn't have anything like the level of military protection that it will need... and recent events have demonstrated that the level of military protection it *had* was woefully inadequate. Something should be done about that.
-[x] As such, we intend to meet with the Sultan, and negotiate returning the city to him, but that we intend to carve out small-to-moderate sections of the city for each of the non-Yodotai empires represented here, as part of the city charter... places where that empire's rule held (and not subject to the taxes of the city). In return, each of the empires would be responsible for providing a garrison of a certain minimum size, which would come to the defense of the city in the event that it is attacked, and making clear what the rules *were*, so that those who lived in the city could decide for themselves which quarters to visit and which to avoid. This would also serve as a center for cooperation between these great empires in response to major outside threats (like, say, the Yodotai) and other diplomatic efforts.
-[x] To our own people we declare that land outside the Empire is *not* the sacred land of Rokugan, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily utterly useless.
--[x] to the Mantis, Unicorn, Crab, and Scorpion, we point out that this still lets us use Medinaat al Salaam for what it's actually *good* for - the benefits of diplomacy and trade - and lets us do it in a more controlled environment, where the gaijin will have to come to us, and conform to our rules and customs. It lets us do that without the level of bloodshed that woudl have been necessary to try to hold the entire thing.
--[x] to the Crane and Lion, we reassure them that this scrap of ground doesn't really matter in the same way Rokugan does, but that holding it gives us a way to establish diplomatic interaction with other empires in a setting that is both controlled and not in Rokugan proper. That, in turn, will help us stave off other future threats before they get to Sacred Rokugan itself. We can just have this little appendix over here that you don't have to worry about, and that can make the rest of the problems go away. Anyway, it's a whole lot better than trying to hold the entire city, right?
-[x] We make a new Imperial position that's basically "Running our chunk of Medinaat al Salaam, and also external diplomacy"
-[x] We explain Paneki's situation to the representative from the Ivory Kingdom, and invite them to offer assistance, if they'd like to help those poor refugees get back home safely and non-starved.
My own interpretation of the effects:
Of the empires:
- The Yodotai are going to be not best pleased, I'm sure. We'll try not to let them know about it any more than we have to. Possibly only put the word out after we've sent the Yodotai home? Something. I think it'll make them less eager to attack us, though, which is about as good as it gets with them.
- The Ivory Kingdoms should be cool with it. Functionally, Medinaat al Salaam remains the neutral trading hub that they want it to be and, if anything, gets a little more neutral. Paneki leaves eventually and has a reasonable enough explanation in the meantime that they should be willing to be patient long enough to clear him out of there. Were broadly giving them what they asked for.
- The Pelmyrians are *also* getting what they asked for - perhaps a little more than they asked for in some ways - and should be pretty happy about that.
- The Senpet are getting... *much* of what they asked for, though their influence in the city is going to be reduced a fair bit by having the other empires with such an obvious local presence. On the other hand, while it probably doesn't make up for it, the potential for extra help against the Yodotai has to go *somewhere* in the plus column for them. Still, I think it's something that they'll at least be satisfied enough with to accept it and move on. It's more than what they would have had if we'd left the Shadow Dragon in place, after all.
Of the Clans:
- Dragon and Phoenix are cool. Crab see that they have a place to send the Yasuki, and that there's been no *reduction* in the chance of getting jade from other empires, so they're cool.
- Scorpion can probably be convinced pretty readily that this is a solid, pragmatic approach to the situation, so they should be okay with it.
- Mantis and Unicorn... aren't getting everything they asked for, but they *are* getting the trade opening up, so hopefully they should be okay with that. Also, their initial demand was excessive and they almost certainly know it.
- Crane and Lion... are likely to be unhappy about it, but hopefully won't be *too* unhappy. If we need to, I suspect we can placate the crane by appointing a Daidoji to be the first Imperial Ambassador
@gman391 - is that more or less correct as far as responses we're likely to get?
- The Lion(40) and Crane(30) want to get the heck out of the place, and pull back to Rokugan proper, because interacting with the outside leads to Change, and Change Is Bad.
- The Scorpion(25) and Crab(70) "want to hold the city or at least make sure that whoever got it was a friend". More broadly, based on the fact that they're callign themselves the pragmatists, it souns like they mostly want to get somethign out of this adventure, rather than just throwing away our gains.
- The Unicorn(60) and Mantis(35) are declaring that any soil conquered by Rokugan counts as Rokugani soil, and must be defended at all costs.
- The Dragon(55) and Phoenix(60) have out back regardless. The Crab are willing to switch to this faction as long as it doesn't mean losing out on any potential Jade gains. Jade is Really Important to the Crab.
As far as precedents... I think that the "everything we take is sacred soil" is basically untenable as an option. It's not sustainable. It would lock us into being an expansionist power, and we're literally the weakest of the major powers right now. We can't *afford* to be expansionist. "We're going to turn our back on this and pretend that the world outside Rokugan doesn't exist" is also seriously problematic, in the long term if not the short term. The Yodotai are out there, and they will be looking to conquer us some time within the next century or two, if we don't find a way to make them stop before they get to us.
So, out of that... the Crab aren't really an issue, but if we don't get *something* worthwhile out of this, the Scorpion are going to be seriously upset. We've got the Lion/Crane on one side of the ideological divide, and the Mantis on the other, and one of them is going to be unhappy... but I'm not seeing anything here that changes my rough overall plan described above.
So, @gman391, I have a tentative plan, and a rough idea of how various people are likely to react to it, and I want to know if that's plausible
[x] Plan Carve Out
-[x] We tell the representatives from the Senpet, the Ivory Kingdoms, and the Pelmyrians that we really did come out here just to end the threat of the Shadow Dragon (you know - the one who converted many of the inhabitants to Glass Golems) and that we might have considered just going home, except that the Yodotai are an existential threat to basically everyone, and they are absolutely going to eventually try to conquer the city by force and then probably come after us after that, and we're not okay with that. For the first time in basically forever, we want allies, and we want to set things up so that we're all working together against this threat.
-[x] Also, the city is devastated, and it could use some help getting back on its feet - preferably help from multiple directions. It certainly doesn't have anything like the level of military protection that it will need... and recent events have demonstrated that the level of military protection it *had* was woefully inadequate. Something should be done about that.
-[x] As such, we intend to meet with the Sultan, and negotiate returning the city to him, but that we intend to carve out small-to-moderate sections of the city for each of the non-Yodotai empires represented here, as part of the city charter... places where that empire's rule held (and not subject to the taxes of the city). In return, each of the empires would be responsible for providing a garrison of a certain minimum size, which would come to the defense of the city in the event that it is attacked, and making clear what the rules *were*, so that those who lived in the city could decide for themselves which quarters to visit and which to avoid. This would also serve as a center for cooperation between these great empires in response to major outside threats (like, say, the Yodotai) and other diplomatic efforts.
-[x] To our own people we declare that land outside the Empire is *not* the sacred land of Rokugan, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily utterly useless.
--[x] to the Mantis, Unicorn, Crab, and Scorpion, we point out that this still lets us use Medinaat al Salaam for what it's actually *good* for - the benefits of diplomacy and trade - and lets us do it in a more controlled environment, where the gaijin will have to come to us, and conform to our rules and customs. It lets us do that without the level of bloodshed that woudl have been necessary to try to hold the entire thing.
--[x] to the Crane and Lion, we reassure them that this scrap of ground doesn't really matter in the same way Rokugan does, but that holding it gives us a way to establish diplomatic interaction with other empires in a setting that is both controlled and not in Rokugan proper. That, in turn, will help us stave off other future threats before they get to Sacred Rokugan itself. We can just have this little appendix over here that you don't have to worry about, and that can make the rest of the problems go away. Anyway, it's a whole lot better than trying to hold the entire city, right?
-[x] We make a new Imperial position that's basically "Running our chunk of Medinaat al Salaam, and also external diplomacy"
-[x] We explain Paneki's situation to the representative from the Ivory Kingdom, and invite them to offer assistance, if they'd like to help those poor refugees get back home safely and non-starved.
My own interpretation of the effects:
Of the empires:
- The Yodotai are going to be not best pleased, I'm sure. We'll try not to let them know about it any more than we have to. Possibly only put the word out after we've sent the Yodotai home? Something. I think it'll make them less eager to attack us, though, which is about as good as it gets with them.
- The Ivory Kingdoms should be cool with it. Functionally, Medinaat al Salaam remains the neutral trading hub that they want it to be and, if anything, gets a little more neutral. Paneki leaves eventually and has a reasonable enough explanation in the meantime that they should be willing to be patient long enough to clear him out of there. Were broadly giving them what they asked for.
- The Pelmyrians are *also* getting what they asked for - perhaps a little more than they asked for in some ways - and should be pretty happy about that.
- The Senpet are getting... *much* of what they asked for, though their influence in the city is going to be reduced a fair bit by having the other empires with such an obvious local presence. On the other hand, while it probably doesn't make up for it, the potential for extra help against the Yodotai has to go *somewhere* in the plus column for them. Still, I think it's something that they'll at least be satisfied enough with to accept it and move on. It's more than what they would have had if we'd left the Shadow Dragon in place, after all.
Of the Clans:
- Dragon and Phoenix are cool. Crab see that they have a place to send the Yasuki, and that there's been no *reduction* in the chance of getting jade from other empires, so they're cool.
- Scorpion can probably be convinced pretty readily that this is a solid, pragmatic approach to the situation, so they should be okay with it.
- Mantis and Unicorn... aren't getting everything they asked for, but they *are* getting the trade opening up, so hopefully they should be okay with that. Also, their initial demand was excessive and they almost certainly know it.
- Crane and Lion... are likely to be unhappy about it, but hopefully won't be *too* unhappy. If we need to, I suspect we can placate the crane by appointing a Daidoji to be the first Imperial Ambassador
@gman391 - is that more or less correct as far as responses we're likely to get?
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The Crane and Lion want literally nothing to do with the city, and the Crane will in fact not be mollified by this hypothetical new position. (Selection process would need to be decided too. Thinking Opal Champion if you go the competition route)
The Unicorn are going to complain loudly that they got nothing for the immense amount they gave. (They took the most damage of the three main armies) so they'll need some sort of bribe to keep the sweet. The Mantis as a whole will be fine with it, their Champion less so.
On foreign powers, the Pelmyrians will actually dislike inviting the 'soft' Ivindi into the city, but they'll manage all the same, a Four Kingdom Alliance works for them. In practice the burning sands outside of the river is mostly worthless. So the Partition of the Empire of the Jewel won't particularly satisfy the Senpet, they have enough desert. The Ivindi will be amenable to it particularly if the Sultan is returned to the throne and Paneki moves.
The Unicorn are going to complain loudly that they got nothing for the immense amount they gave. (They took the most damage of the three main armies) so they'll need some sort of bribe to keep the sweet. The Mantis as a whole will be fine with it, their Champion less so.
On foreign powers, the Pelmyrians will actually dislike inviting the 'soft' Ivindi into the city, but they'll manage all the same, a Four Kingdom Alliance works for them. In practice the burning sands outside of the river is mostly worthless. So the Partition of the Empire of the Jewel won't particularly satisfy the Senpet, they have enough desert. The Ivindi will be amenable to it particularly if the Sultan is returned to the throne and Paneki moves.
- Location
- Leeds
Of course. Gaijin blood shed not in Rokugan is inherently better than Gaijin blood shed in Rokugan.
[X] In tiny squid we trust.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
For clarification - I wasn't suggesting that we'd take significant chunks of desert, just chunks of the city itself. I realize that the Senpet wouldn't really care about their portion, as it's in many ways less than they had initially, but I was including them for completeness, and because *not* including them would have been insulting and undercut the putative reasoning.
If the Unicorn need a bribe... well, that's fair. Hopefully, we can manage some form of bribe that helps them rebuild relatively quickly, as we're going to need them to help keep the overland route safe(r).
The Crane/Lion reaction... yeah. Not good, but not super-surprising. Unfortunately, it puts us back in the position of trying to figure out what we can do to make the Crane happy that won't set back our other goals too badly. I suppose that means that we're back at the Scorpion being our primary courtier clan for the foreign lands which... well, that's appropriate, in a way, given their history with the place.
The Senpet... they might not like it, but I'm guessing that they'd *accept* it, right?
/*************/
...incidentally, there's an alternate plan. I don't much *like* it, for various reasons, but I'll admit that it's viable.
- Accept the Senpet buyout. Take as much as we can get. Officially leave and let them reinstall the Sultan. Paneki finished his business and heads out. Senpet and Ivindi now happy. Yodotai as happy as they're going to get. Pelmyrians less happy, but they're not going to come after us for it. Crane and Lion basically happy as well.
- Distribute the majority of the payoff as appropriate gifts to various groups to mollify them. Unicorn in particular get a large chunk, weighted towards things that help them recover. Unicorn mollified
- Use a smallish of the payoff to actually buy up some real estate in the resulting city the old-fashioned way, and rebuild it. give that as a gift to the Mantis, and let them do their mantis thing there. throw in some sort of rule about trade in foreign jade that will have them keeping an eye out for the opportunity and then bringing it back to sell to us at a respectable profit, at which point it gets funneled to the Crab. Get the Yasuki to help you draft the rule. Crab basically satisfied. Mantis not super-happy, but probably mostly okay. As far as the Unicorn and Lion are concerned, it's just the Mantis doing their Mantis thing, so they're not bent out of shape about it.
- Do what you can to convince the Scorpion that it was worth it and/or that this was the best available option. Probably toss them some extra of the payout, likely gussied up as rewards for Paneki being awesome.
This lets us basically disengage from the entire thing, gets the Crane happy, and *maybe* manages to get away without really upsetting anyone we care about. (okay, the Mantis are probably a bit miffed, the Scorpion might be annoyed, and the treasurer is not pleased. The real problem, though, is that it basically loses out on the opportunity to open things up (a little) in a controlled fashion. Of course, that opportunity is *exactly* what the Crane and Lion are objecting to, so.... Well, one can't have everything.
- Location
- Moon-Station
This is a bit more than i can comfortably decide but.... why can we not give the city into the stewardship of the Tortoise? They know what to do at least
[X] Keep the city but give the Pelmyrians, Senpet, Ivory Kingdoms, and the Yodotai a trading district each and open up trade.
-[X] Add Governing the City to the duties of the Unicorn
-[X] Try to sell our continued control of Medinaat al Salaam to the Ivory Kingdoms as Humanitarian duties and to restore order in the town offer exceptions to tariffs if need be to smooth it over.
-[X] In that vein try and get the Ivindi, Senpet, and the Pelmyrians invested enough in the rebuilding that they will help defend the city from being conquered outright by the Yodotai.
-[X] Add Governing the City to the duties of the Unicorn
-[X] Try to sell our continued control of Medinaat al Salaam to the Ivory Kingdoms as Humanitarian duties and to restore order in the town offer exceptions to tariffs if need be to smooth it over.
-[X] In that vein try and get the Ivindi, Senpet, and the Pelmyrians invested enough in the rebuilding that they will help defend the city from being conquered outright by the Yodotai.
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[X] Keep the city but give the Pelmyrians, Senpet, Ivory Kingdoms, and the Yodotai a trading district each and open up trade.
-[X] Add Governing the City to the duties of the Unicorn
-[X] Try to sell our continued control of Medinaat al Salaam to the Ivory Kingdoms as Humanitarian duties and to restore order in the town offer exceptions to tariffs if need be to smooth it over.
-[X] Add Governing the City to the duties of the Unicorn
-[X] Try to sell our continued control of Medinaat al Salaam to the Ivory Kingdoms as Humanitarian duties and to restore order in the town offer exceptions to tariffs if need be to smooth it over.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
"give city to the stewardship of the tortoise" is an answer to "who do we have run this" (rather than some other imperial appointment), and not a terrible one. Keeping the city, though, is problematic in a number of ways.
I find this plan concerning, for a few reasons. Carving out trading districts for the others is a lot better than keeping the whole thing for ourselves, but it still has problems.
- We're directly and solely responsible for the defense of the city. Given that the Senpet are militarily stronger than we are, and the Yodotai can crush us, this is problematic.
- Rokugani rulership is actually really bad for merchants, especially merchants that are not already Rokugani. We're setting ourselves up to have a lot of really unhappy citizens of Medinaat al Salaam who are prepared to fight shadow wars (they're pretty good at shadow wars) and the only real response we have is direct military force.
- The "we're bad at ruling merchants" thing is also going to make the place just plain not work as well as a trade hub. That's going to upset the Ivindi and the Senpet, at least somewhat. It's not going to upset them enough to take direct military action, necessarily, but it they are pretty likely to take quiet steps to have us deposed.
- I don't see anything in there that's going to make the Yodotai not act, and if they decide to take the Jewel of the Desert, I don't think we can stop them by ourselves. With this plan, I don't think we've necessarily given the others enough reason to stop them. If nothing else, the Yodotai as rulers are much less damaging to trade than we are. They're pretty hands-off, as long as you're willing to follow their gods.
To me, the important questions at the end of the day are what we gain, and what it costs. My plan cost us some unhappiness in the Senpet, the Lion, and the Crane, and requires us to provide a reasonable garrison. In return, we open up trade, open up diplomacy, get to absorb new ideas in a controlled fashion, get some goodwill, and start forging alliances against the Yodotai. To me, that's pretty much everything we really want at a reasonable price. In particular, it's tuned to be low risk/cost while maximizing the benefits as far as long-term protection of Rokugan and helping to fix some of our backwards cultural approach to trade.
This plan gets us a significant increase in taxes, once the city gets back underway. That's pretty nice. It pays for it in losing out on a lot of the anti-Yodotai diplomatic benefits, upsetting the Senpet and Ivindi quite a lot more, having to fight a bunch of shadow wars, and in general dealing with a lot more strife. It also has a significantly increased chance of losing the entire thing, either to the Yodotai, or to taking enough damage in shadow wars that the Lion and Crane can successfully sell the idea that we should just abandon the place as not worth it. It's a *lot* higher in risk/cost, and what it gets out of it is... taxes from one trade city. Am I missing something? Are we expecting the taxes to just be that amazingly high?
- Location
- Should be a bit higher
Didn't at least some historical examples show that taxing foreign holdings was nowhere as lucrative as was anticipated and actually much more trouble than it was worth?
Both from logistical and enforcement considerations. As well as the rise of smugglers and black marketeers creating this fiction of unacceptable tax burden in order to initiate a rebellion.
Both from logistical and enforcement considerations. As well as the rise of smugglers and black marketeers creating this fiction of unacceptable tax burden in order to initiate a rebellion.
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