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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Ugolino said:
Ethnostate balkanization with "peaceful" mass deportations of "the noneuropeans" and "traditional values". Blech.
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He's talking about doing that with the United States of America?

Balkanization and America, I could comprehend. Ethnostate plus America...that too. Ethnostate plus Balkanization plus deportation of non-Europeans and America?

How are you gonna have a balkanized ethnostate of White America? Is he saying "This area, only Polish Americans live here. This area, only Greek Americans live here. This area, only Irish Americans live here."
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
Speaking of moving forward, have you arrived at a ruling on the Triumph and the Articles? I can't find them in threadmarks.
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Link, please.
Lazer Raptor said:
@PoptartProdigy, sorry to bother you, but could I get a definitive ruling on whether or not my omake is canon? Do note that I did remove any mention of special status for Manchuria from it, if that swings your decision one way or another.
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Ruling deferred for now. Various people have contacted me about China, and I've sort of left more space open than I had originally intended. I'll probably draft an official story at some point in the near future.
EBR said:
@PoptartProdigy if I could get a ruling on what borders are cannon for the Farmers' Federation of Dakota?
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I have not really been following the debate. What's the contention, exactly?
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
The 9-String Triumph of Sainted Gordon

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"In the Collapse, we all have lost something. Those of us who lived before it have lost their home country, the state that they trusted to keep them safe and give them their fair chance to prosper. Those born into this world of chaos, have lost the future they should have had, and the chance to make anything they wished of themselves. To grow up, and experience all life had to offer, free of fear, free of the looming shadows hellbent on tearing apart all that was good!

In our own ways, we have, to a one, clung to something of the past in hopes it might show the path to a better tomorrow. In this age of warlords, oppressors and misery, we all have sought some measure of comfort to draw upon, so that we can find the will to live another day. Not just survive, LIVE!

We, our people, are no different in this regard. But we never settled. We never stopped being itinerant, never stopped moving. We've clung to something, like all others. But where so many secret them away, hide them for fear of discovery by wretched Victorians, we hid nothing. We have been in the open for decades, wandering the length and breadth of the Rockies in plain sight. Do you know why we do this?

We do it, because we wish to be heard. Because hiding what we have preserved would be as though we didn't have it at all. Until those murderous eyes in the sky sight their guns on us and fire, we will keep on as we have.

And now, the cranks have spun, the cells have life and it is time to begin!

LET THE TUNES TEAR UP THE AIR! LET THE BEAT ECHO THROUGH THE MOUNTAINS! LET US REVERBERATE TO THE EDGE OF THE ATMOSPHERE, THAT ALL THE WORLD MUST HEAR OF US! LET THE 9-STRING ECHO ETERNAL!" - Simon Chen, Lead Vocalist of the 9-String Triumph, 2067

Not a great deal is known about the groups collectively known as the 9-String Triumph of Sainted Gordon beyond the superficial, save for their sense of bombast, which has become local legend. They are known to wander across the span of the former Mountain States, lead by their Vocalists, who proselytize to the residents of rural towns, homesteads and occasionally on the outskirts of the larger cities.

Publically, it is known that they lead an itinerant lifestyle, caring only for (loudly) playing and venerating the various scores of the Australian composer Mick Gordon. While largely looked upon with amusement, and occasionally paid in food and scavenged parts to maintain their sound systems in exchange for the novelty of hearing Old World music, there are occasional converts who find themselves drawn to their openly espoused stance of spending their lives reveling in what makes them happy, alongside their fiery condemnations and snubbing of Victorian attitudes.

The exact origins of the Triumph are unknown, as rumors of sightings date to the beginning stages of the Collapse, and unverified claims that the Triumph predates the Collapse entirely. Members of the Triumph themselves, when questioned on the matter, aloofly dismissed the queries as unimportant.
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Non-canon.
Sir_Travelsalot said:
The Choice Article of Armament

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"Nothing wrong with the 5.56, of course. Perfectly good caliber, adequate for most situations. But I'm not letting Rovers go out there with something that does about as much as mosquito bites to a charging bear again. The trap was pure luck." James Kruger, advocating for the adoption of the AR10 by the Families, May 11th, 2036

Even before committing themselves to the inevitable clash against Victorian forces, the Families faced danger in the form of the native wildlife in Yellowstone, particularly in large animals like bears. Faced with Rovers who were displeased with wandering through woodlands full of creatures against which their munitions were less than effective, the families instead turned to a rifle in their possession, though in smaller numbers, the .308 Winchester firing AR10, and began developing means to reequip their fighting troops.

Of much assistance in this endeavor was the simple fact that many of the individual parts in both rifles were interchangeable, and those that were not, such as the receiver and barrels, were made with the same materials. After two years of work, a workshop producing milled equivalents for those parts that could not be switched over was in full operation.

Over the years since the Collapse, the Families have been able to keep their stock of spare parts at a usable capacity, augmented by recycling of the parts of captured guns from the cadres of would-be warlords and bandit groups drawn to Yellowstone by the Families, whether for their food, their spirits, or simply a fight.

On the occasions that the Families had no means to procure replacements for components such as the polymer stocks and pistol grips, the Families would instead make replacements from hardwood frames sheathed in the same vegetable-tanned boiled leather that they used primarily for belts, straps, holsters and footwear. These AR10's, sometimes affectionately referred to as 'Choice Articles', were something of a status symbol among the Rover Family, having a visible mark of manufacture by the Families.

Of course, a gun without ammunition is not very useful, and even with reloading the shell casings the Families stockpiles would have declined with active use, never mind supplying .308 cartridges to a far larger number of guns than they had arrived with.

While mostly much the same as their original munitions, the Families opted to replace the FMJ lead with steel core bullets, the steel for which they had a more abundant supply of. To mitigate the issue of over-penetration that would result, as well as to satisfy the desire for even more internal damage from a hit, the steel was drilled into at the tip to produce hollow-point rounds.

Even with the success of the conversion process of the Rover Family's armory, a carbine AR15 is still kept in use by Rovers assigned to mortar crews, who greatly appreciate the lighter weight.
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Canon. I'll be rolling any bonuses for the Families together, as they're all on the same subject.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
I know nothing about the Dakotas, and consequently have no reason to even question the borders presented here. I assume they're in contention? Could you link me to the arguments?

As for splitting, no, not yet.
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I don't know about contention, just want to get your take. The creator's comments are here. I though I'd check with you before making what was already a pretty big faction bigger.
 
EBR said:
I don't know about contention, just want to get your take. The creator's comments are here. I though I'd check with you before making what was already a pretty big faction bigger.
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Isn't their territory more "the alleged territory " and "an implosion waiting to happen" so to speak per the original omake? That'd explain any oddities in size.
 
EBR said:
I don't know about contention, just want to get your take. The creator's comments are here. I though I'd check with you before making what was already a pretty big faction bigger.
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They are a food exporter using Victorian-approved agricultural methods. No chemical fertilizers because there is nowhere exporting hundreds of tons of ammonium nitrate or phosphate fertilizers.No mechanized agriculture with combines because machines are expensive and petroleum is Russian-disliked, no large-scale electricity-based preservation, lots of animal and human labor.

They have the capability to support a full Victorian division of professional soldiers (about ten thousand men) for weeks or months during the Fair, export a sizable yearly tribute to Victoria, and still have enough surplus to sell to independent traders.
That place should probably be bigger. Much bigger.

The combined Dakotas have a RL population of 1.5 million. That's probably a population floor for what you need for that much food production.
 
I think I found a real life group that would be the antithetic to Victoria, a group who represents an ideological counterpart to their nightmarish radical puritanical-style version of Christianity. To sets out to heal while Victoria destroys, to enlighten while Victoria burns books and to tolerate while Victoria purges.

Ladies and Gentlemen, The Satanic Temple.


Now despite the image that conjures up, they don't actually worship any demonic powers, instead using the literary Satan as a metaphor to promote pragmatic skepticism, rational reciprocity, personal autonomy, and curiosity. Satan is thus used as a symbol representing "the eternal rebel" against arbitrary authority and social norms.

They are essentially a satirical protest movement against Christian Privilege in politics, using Satanic imagery to promote egalitarianism, social justice, and the separation of church and state. In 2019 they fulfilled the IRS' legal requirements to be considered "a church or a convention or association of churches."

The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will.

Politically aware, Civic-minded Satanists and allies in The Satanic Temple have publicly opposed The Westboro Baptist Church, advocated on behalf of children in public school to abolish corporal punishment, applied for equal representation where religious monuments are placed on public property, provided religious exemption and legal protection against laws that unscientifically restrict women's reproductive autonomy, exposed fraudulent harmful pseudo-scientific practitioners and claims in mental health care, and applied to hold clubs alongside other religious after school clubs in schools besieged by proselytizing organizations.
  1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  3. One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
  4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
  5. Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
  7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

It's just an amusing idea of benevolent Satanists rising out of the ashes of the collapse, as Victorians turning the sign of the cross into a traumatic image so do survivors turn a hellish icon into a symbol of hope.
 
Whumbly said:
I think I found a real life group that would be the antithetic to Victoria, a group who represents an ideological counterpart to their nightmarish radical puritanical-style version of Christianity. To sets out to heal while Victoria destroys, to enlighten while Victoria burns books and to tolerate while Victoria purges.

Ladies and Gentlemen, The Satanic Temple.


Now despite the image that conjures up, they don't actually worship any demonic powers, instead using the literary Satan as a metaphor to promote pragmatic skepticism, rational reciprocity, personal autonomy, and curiosity. Satan is thus used as a symbol representing "the eternal rebel" against arbitrary authority and social norms.

They are essentially a satirical protest movement against Christian Privilege in politics, using Satanic imagery to promote egalitarianism, social justice, and the separation of church and state. In 2019 they fulfilled the IRS' legal requirements to be considered "a church or a convention or association of churches."

The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will.

Politically aware, Civic-minded Satanists and allies in The Satanic Temple have publicly opposed The Westboro Baptist Church, advocated on behalf of children in public school to abolish corporal punishment, applied for equal representation where religious monuments are placed on public property, provided religious exemption and legal protection against laws that unscientifically restrict women's reproductive autonomy, exposed fraudulent harmful pseudo-scientific practitioners and claims in mental health care, and applied to hold clubs alongside other religious after school clubs in schools besieged by proselytizing organizations.
  1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  3. One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
  4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
  5. Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
  7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

It's just an amusing idea of benevolent Satanists rising out of the ashes of the collapse, as Victorians turning the sign of the cross into a traumatic image so do survivors turn a hellish icon into a symbol of hope.
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Let me just unironically say: Hail Satan!
 
uju32 said:
They are a food exporter using Victorian-approved agricultural methods. No chemical fertilizers because there is nowhere exporting hundreds of tons of ammonium nitrate or phosphate fertilizers.No mechanized agriculture with combines because machines are expensive and petroleum is Russian-disliked, no large-scale electricity-based preservation, lots of animal and human labor.

They have the capability to support a full Victorian division of professional soldiers (about ten thousand men) for weeks or months during the Fair, export a sizable yearly tribute to Victoria, and still have enough surplus to sell to independent traders.
That place should probably be bigger. Much bigger.

The combined Dakotas have a RL population of 1.5 million. That's probably a population floor for what you need for that much food production.
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To further butress my point with actual data?
Note that in the developing world, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN estimates that farmers in South/Southeast Asia and sub-Saharan Africa loses about 33% of their food production before it even reaches the consumer
Roughly one-third of the edible parts of food produced for human consumption, gets lost or wasted globally, which is about 1.3 billion ton per year. Food is wasted throughout the FSC, from initial agricultural production down to final household consumption. In medium- and high-income countries food is to a great extent wasted, meaning that it is thrown away even if it is still suitable for human consumption. Significant food loss and waste do, however, also occur early in the food supply chain. In low-income countries food is mainly lost during the early and middle stages of the food supply chain; much less food is wasted at the consumer level
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Figure 2 shows that the per capita food loss in Europe and North-America is 280-300 kg/year. In sub-Saharan Africa and South/Southeast Asia it is 120-170 kg/year. The total per capita production of edible parts of food for human consumption is, in Europe and North-America, about 900 kg/year and, in sub-Saharan Africa and South/Southeast Asia, 460 kg/year.
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That means that when looking at food exporting regions in the Third World region of the Dakotas(that is a strange combination of words), straight off the bat you are assuming that they're losing at least a third of their production to wastage.
Spoilage, disease, pests et cetera.

To lose that much wastage while pursuing non-fertilizer agriculture means both a productive region and a large population to skim a surplus off sustainably. Hundreds of thousands of farmers and their families.
Hence a base population of low millions.
 
uju32 said:
They are a food exporter using Victorian-approved agricultural methods. No chemical fertilizers because there is nowhere exporting hundreds of tons of ammonium nitrate or phosphate fertilizers.No mechanized agriculture with combines because machines are expensive and petroleum is Russian-disliked...
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Combine harvesters are actually 19th century technology and can be animal-powered. Steam harvesters were a thing in the early 20th century and can be wood-fired or coal-fired.

Victoria shows no sign of disliking any of the above.

The combined Dakotas have a RL population of 1.5 million. That's probably a population floor for what you need for that much food production.
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Remember that 1.5 million Dakotans could not possibly farm anywhere near as much land as they do in the present day, without highly mechanized agriculture. They'd be condensed into a much smaller area physically, and that area would be packed in tighter along riverine transport. Which is what's going on with the overall shape of that map; I suspect it was drawn by saying "OK, let's include everything within X miles of the Y River and its major tributaries."
 
Victoria disapproves of neither fertilizer nor 1930s mechanized farming equipment. Which is a bizarre line to draw, since the Industrial Revolution was past mature by that point, along with all the societal liberalization it made inevitable, but shhhhhhhh we have guns and will shoot you for disagreeing with us.

So...not sure if that would expand their territory, due to their greater reach, or shrink it, because they could more efficiently hit the quotas on less land.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Combine harvesters are actually 19th century technology and can be animal-powered. Steam harvesters were a thing in the early 20th century and can be wood-fired or coal-fired.

Victoria shows no sign of disliking any of the above.

Remember that 1.5 million Dakotans could not possibly farm anywhere near as much land as they do in the present day, without highly mechanized agriculture. They'd be condensed into a much smaller area physically, and that area would be packed in tighter along riverine transport. Which is what's going on with the overall shape of that map; I suspect it was drawn by saying "OK, let's include everything within X miles of the Y River and its major tributaries."
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-Animal powered sure. Note that I pointed out animal power is fine.
But the fact that Russian intelligence had a hand in the design of this polity means fossil fuel use was definitely de-emphasized where possible. Especially because North Dakota has significant amounts of oil and lignite.

The last thing they want is a significant energy-extraction capacity around which other things can grow.
Places like Chicago and Detroit need power for minimum viability in their assigned role. Places like the Dakotas....don't.
If at all possible that is.

-It would still of necessity be significantly bigger than the area on the map I'm talking about. Eyeballing the map, the territory is less than a hundred miles across its width. Less than 50 miles on either bank of the river. That isn't going to provide the surplus necessary. Especially since, IIRC, part of the genesis of this polity was the forced relocation of tens of thousands of people by Vic soldiers and mercs.

Wouldn't have bothered if the original 1.5 million in the Dakotas was enough.
PoptartProdigy said:
Victoria disapproves of neither fertilizer nor 1930s mechanized farming equipment. Which is a bizarre line to draw, since the Industrial Revolution was past mature by that point, along with all the societal liberalization it made inevitable, but shhhhhhhh we have guns and will shoot you for disagreeing with us.

So...not sure if that would expand their territory, due to their greater reach, or shrink it, because they could more efficiently hit the quotas on less land.
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-Chemical fertilizer requires the production and transport of thousands of tons of nitrogen and phosphate fertilizers each year.
Which either requires industry in the middle of the Dakotas. Or a robust transport importation infratructure.
Or both.

Plus, there is the note that it's relatively easy to go from producing ammonium nitrate fertilizer to producing explosives.
Or indeed, to make explosives from ammonium nitrate fertilizer.
The US tracks purchases of fertilizer for precisely that reason.

Moving hundreds of tons of explosive precursor into potentially hostile territory every year, either to import it to the Dakotas, or to move it from a Dakota production node to the end customers, is the kind of thing that would give Vic intelligence hives.
Not saying they didn't do it; just saying it's something to take into account.
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
So...not sure if that would expand their territory, due to their greater reach, or shrink it, because they could more efficiently hit the quotas on less land.
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Shrink, probably. Because Vicks don't disapprove of mechanized agriculture but DO disapprove of individual freedom of movement and want everyone living in conveniently controlled and comparatively isolated small towns. Individual farm houses many away from the nearest town thus become economically unsupportable, as do enormous swathes of industrially farmed land. Expect to see everyone forcibly herded into hamlets so they don't have as far to walk to get to the fields they work in.

uju32 said:
-Animal powered sure. Note that I pointed out animal power is fine.
But the fact that Russian intelligence had a hand in the design of this polity means fossil fuel use was definitely de-emphasized where possible. Especially because North Dakota has significant amounts of oil and lignite.

The last thing they want is a significant energy-extraction capacity around which other things can grow.
Places like Chicago and Detroit need power for minimum viability in their assigned role. Places like the Dakotas....don't.
If at all possible that is.
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It probably depends on to what extent they want the Dakotas capable of serving as a breadbasket.

It's also worth looking at the historical productivity of late 19th century agriculture; historically a farming region with good soil could get pretty good surpluses out of that.
 
Of note:
US fertilizer use averages ~140kg/hectare as of 2016
knoema.com

Log In - knoema.com

knoema.com knoema.com
US cereal yields were 2.5 tons/hectare in the 50s, and >8 tons per hectare in 2013

United States - Cereal Yield (kg Per Hectare) - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 1961-2022 Historical

Cereal yield (kg per hectare) in United States was reported at 8072 kg in 2022, according to the World Bank collection of development indicators, compiled from officially recognized sources. United States - Cereal yield (kg per hectare) - actual values, historical data, forecasts and projections...
tradingeconomics.com tradingeconomics.com
Simon_Jester said:
Shrink, probably. Because Vicks don't disapprove of mechanized agriculture but DO disapprove of individual freedom of movement and want everyone living in conveniently controlled and comparatively isolated small towns. Individual farm houses many away from the nearest town thus become economically unsupportable, as do enormous swathes of industrially farmed land. Expect to see everyone forcibly herded into hamlets so they don't have as far to walk to get to the fields they work in.
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Conversely, not everywhere is arable. Even in Dakota.
And the Vics aren't around 365 days a year.
That degree of societal control is only really possible with on-the-ground monitoring.

People will naturally cluster on their own, because humanity is social, and it allows skills to be shared; metalworkers, vets, midwives and medical access, and so on. But I suspect there are regular expeditions striking out to get away from Vic visited territories.

Simon_Jester said:
It's also worth looking at the historical productivity of late 19th century agriculture; historically a farming region with good soil could get pretty good surpluses out of that.
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US corn production pre-1936 averaged 1.6 metric tons/hectare:
From 1866, the first year USDA began to publish corn yield estimates, through about 1936, yields of open-pollinated corn varieties in the U.S. remained fairly stagnant and averaged about 26 bu/ac (1.6 MT/ha) throughout that 70-year period. Amazingly, the historical data indicate there was no appreciable change in productivity during that entire time period (Fig. 1), even though farmers' seed-saving practices represented a form of plant breeding.

Rapid adoption of double-cross hybrid corn by American growers began in the late 1930's, in the waning years of the Dust Bowl and Great Depression. Within a very few years, the yield data indicated that a significant improvement in corn productivity had occurred, that resulted in an annual rate of yield improvement of about 0.8 bu/ac/year from about 1937 through about 1955 (Fig. 1).

A second significant improvement in the annual rate of yield gain began in the mid-1950's in response to continued improvement in crop genetics, increasing adoption of N fertilizer and chemical pesticides, and agricultural mechanization (Fig. 1). Since 1955, corn grain yields in the U.S. have increased at a fairly constant 1.9 bushels per acre per year, sustained primarily by continued improvements in genetics and crop production technologies (Fig. 1).
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Historical Corn Grain Yields in the U.S. (Purdue University)

The Corny News Network was created by RL (Bob) Nielsen, Extension Agronomist at Purdue University. The articles written for the CNN pertain primarily to corn production & management issues important for Indiana corn growers and their consultants.
www.agry.purdue.edu

Better seeds, better educated farmers, but reduced fertilizer access, and almost certainly no pesticides. And no meteorological support either.
Not to mention a well-founded conservatism in practice for political reasons, since the Vics will view change with suspicion.
Productivity is unlikely to go much above 2 metric tons a hectare, with 1.6 metric tons as a floor.

Then you factor in post-production losses of around a third, and you have what the farmer is left with on the average.
 
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@PoptartProdigy Here's the original post about the Farmer's Federation map, my reply and EBR's reply to that. Do with them as you will.

EBR said:
@Pyro Hawk, here's my attempt at the Farmers' Federation of Dakota. I wasn't quite sure as to the borders so I kept them fairly tight around the river and made Sioux City the capital over Bismarck for no particular reason. Where's the next Fall Harvest Fair going to be held? I could designate that as the capital provisionally. Maybe Pierre? It's small, centrally located, and a former state capital.

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Pyro Hawk said:
EBR, don't know how Poptart's decided they are canonically in-universe, but for my idea there's one big problem with your map. Namely, Bismark is the northern capital as Sioux City is the southern capital and the northern border is much shorter than it should be. Namely, Lake Sakakawea and further up the Missouri River is all part of the 'official' territory of the Farmer's Federation. My thoughts are that the merging of the Yellowstone and Missouri Rivers would be a good 'last town' spot because it gives the Federation control over what's likely to be a good trading centre.

As for where the Fall Fair is to be held, officially my thoughts is it alternates between Sioux City and Bismark each year to ensure everyone gets access to it locally. Unofficially I suspect that it's held each year in both cities and what alternates is where the Victorian Division Command is located. As for what city would become the capital of the nation... Honestly, Pierre sounds like it probably would end up becoming the effective capital if it's not already in-between Victoria 'fixing' that problem so the capital goes back to the official ones.

Remember: this nation is an apocalyptic mess of compromises between very unhappy people which is only held together by the knowledge that if they cause too many problems, they're all going to have an increase of lead in their diet. Also the fact that as long as they keep the 'trade', farming and ranching working well enough to feed Victoria whilst apparently observing the official constitution a lot of slack is let happen. Which is one of the reasons why no one's actually tried to figure out a way for the Clan Council to actual run when there's not a politically dominant Clan to force it through, or an emergency causing everyone to want it to happen.

It is not meant at all to be a functional nation in any way other than to easily provide Victoria a lot of agricultural goods each year. As if it was, that meant they could be a threat to Victorian hegemony. The only reason that such a large 'nation' exists in the central, southern and eastern regions of North America before the CFC rose up and shattered Victoria is that setting the region up to in-effect be a bunch of Detroit and Toledos meant that extracting a lot of foodstuffs from the region was too hard, and there wasn't that much to extract in the first place. Honestly, I think that they actually tried it which is why they know it doesn't work, and then a Victorian General had the bright idea to force them all together into one nation to make it easier. Without healing all the damage they'd already caused in previous efforts which is partially why the Federation is so apocalyptically dysfunctional.

As for if Pierre does end up the capital, or they work out things into something that can run without the Victorian beatstick 'unjamming' the works when needed... I suspect that the most likely result is going to be a civil war/fracturing of the nation into a Northern and Southern Farmer's Federation based around one of the two official capitals.
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EBR said:
Well extending it further north and west to where the Missouri and the Yellowstone meet is no problem. I'm hesitant to mark multiple capitals for a faction, but I can do that also if I have to. It sounds like we need @PoptartProdigy to weigh in whether or not the FFD has split into multiple pieces or remains whole though. Does their territory need to be wider or is it good as is?
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In short: I think that the Farmer's Federation is bigger, though I'm not sure if it's wider around the river. But it's also so unstable that unless they manage things perfectly, then in short order there will be two Farmer's Federation successors. A northern nation with a capital in Bismark, and a southern nation with it's capital in Sioux City.
 
Pyro Hawk said:
In short: I think that the Farmer's Federation is bigger, though I'm not sure if it's wider around the river. But it's also so unstable that unless they manage things perfectly, then in short order there will be two Farmer's Federation successors. A northern nation with a capital in Bismark, and a southern nation with it's capital in Sioux City.
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But if it's bigger, it will no longer look like a seahorse swimming towards the Gulf of Mexico!

I may need more sleep.
 
Alright, here's what I've got thus far. I did take a few liberties with the borders of the NCR and Japanese North America the weird thing between JNA and the Helena Government is still TBD. I hope said liberties are okay, following a straight line for those sections of the CA-NV border felt weird. I can change it if necessary. The Farmers Federation of Dakota has been extended and widened, and the co-capitals of Bismarck and Sioux City are shown.



The full map may be accessed at this link; Victoria Must Fall I

The Dakotas, Nebraska, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, California, Nevada, Arizona, and Oklahoma have been completed.
 
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