But is that still the case when stuff happens. All 3 seem fairly reliant on natural gas. Once the civil war starts and the pipelines are blown, that ends quickly. New Hampshire has a bunch of nuclear, but those reactors will be at retirement age at that point.

Only Rhode Island is powered by gas, setting aside Seabrooke, both Maine and New Hampshire have a substantial number of Hydropower installations
 
Good god... we're all going to be drafting a second constitution with blackjack and hookers at this rate.

Let's hope we can agree on shit keep a few things that were good on the old constitution in there, and compromise enough so either everyone can at least agree on them, or hate it because we compromised to much and decided it's better to have something then nothing.
 
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Only Rhode Island is powered by gas, setting aside Seabrooke, both Maine and New Hampshire have a substantial number of Hydropower installations

Shenanigans.
For example, to promote their cause by discrediting federals for inability to provide basic amenities, some CMC people might have blown up a little bit of infrastructure. Like a dam or two.
Or ten.
 
How about this, Private enterprises are allowed, but if the workers decide to sieze them, the former owners have recourse to nothing beyond fair monetary compensation, the state won't force the workers to relinquish control
I mean, sympathetic as I am to pointing out that "hey business as usual is pretty terrible and we can do better," but this proposed solution runs into a problem:

Which workers?

Like, say we have a diner. It's a holdover from before the Accords, so they've got security guards, line cooks, waiters, and the owner all in the same shop. All of a sudden, however, the legal code gets your proposed compromise in. The line cooks are paid well, and so are the waiters; the security guards are paid best of all, but they feel like their pay should be increased both because they work in hazardous positions and because the owner is only neutral to them instead of being friendly like the owner is to the line cooks and the waiters.

Should the security guards be allowed to seize the business from the owner over the objections of the line cooks and waiters?
 
Good god... we're all going to be drafting a second constitution with blackjack and hookers.

Let's hope we can agree on shit, and compromise so either everyone can at least agree on them, or hate it because we compromised to much.

As long as we can all agree that kicking the Victorians' faces in vigorously is the important priority I think that can work.

Also mandating blackjack and hookers in the Constitution would make those wannabe Puritans' heads EXPLODE! That alone is a good enough reason for throwing those in.
 
I mean, sympathetic as I am to pointing out that "hey business as usual is pretty terrible and we can do better," but this proposed solution runs into a problem:

Which workers?

Like, say we have a diner. It's a holdover from before the Accords, so they've got security guards, line cooks, waiters, and the owner all in the same shop. All of a sudden, however, the legal code gets your proposed compromise in. The line cooks are paid well, and so are the waiters; the security guards are paid best of all, but they feel like their pay should be increased both because they work in hazardous positions and because the owner is only neutral to them instead of being friendly like the owner is to the line cooks and the waiters.

Should the security guards be allowed to seize the business from the owner over the objections of the line cooks and waiters?

A majority of the workers
 
I mean, sympathetic as I am to pointing out that "hey business as usual is pretty terrible and we can do better," but this proposed solution runs into a problem:

Which workers?

Like, say we have a diner. It's a holdover from before the Accords, so they've got security guards, line cooks, waiters, and the owner all in the same shop. All of a sudden, however, the legal code gets your proposed compromise in. The line cooks are paid well, and so are the waiters; the security guards are paid best of all, but they feel like their pay should be increased both because they work in hazardous positions and because the owner is only neutral to them instead of being friendly like the owner is to the line cooks and the waiters.

Should the security guards be allowed to seize the business from the owner over the objections of the line cooks and waiters?

The firm becomes a democracy. The security guards may propose a pay raise for themselves, but if the vote goes against them, too bad. The firm belongs to all of them, and if the owner stays on as the manager, she gets a vote too.

Edit: This is assuming they manage to get a majority of the workers to agree to a reclamation of the workplace of course. if they don't get that then it stays with the owner.
 
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Good god... we're all going to be drafting a second constitution with blackjack and hookers.

Let's hope we can agree on shit, and compromise so either everyone can at least agree on them, or hate it because we compromised to much.
I'm fine with legalizing prostitution, provided there are provisions in place to deal with human trafficking etc.* but I'm not so sure about legalizing gambling.

*Though maybe not immediately. The situation is bad enough that many women might basically be forced into the profession to make ends meet, and I doubt we can install a robust enough welfare system right now.

*pause*

Wait, that's not what you meant when you mentioned blackjack and hookers?
 
Only Rhode Island is powered by gas, setting aside Seabrooke, both Maine and New Hampshire have a substantial number of Hydropower installations
Still, gas is substantial in all states. Even if you only lose 20% of your generating capacity, you're still facing a severe deficit.

The rest can be explained with global warming fucking over hydro, lack of maintenance damaging plants, and so on...
 
As long as we can all agree that kicking the Victorians' faces in vigorously is the important priority I think that can work
I just want the spirit of what made America America intact. I will follow the founders example (for what it's worth to people who don't entirely agree with them) and compromise the ever living hell out of this place so that we may remain together and rebuild America.
Also mandating blackjack and hookers in the Constitution would make those wannabe Puritans' heads EXPLODE! That alone is a good enough reason for throwing those in
uh... that was just me using the expression. I'd be against that irl TBH.
 
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This bit of the lore annoys me, because Maine, New Hampshire and Rhode Island actually are all net exporters of electricity
The Victorians have had to rebuild a lot of (energy-inefficient) heavy industry in New England, and I suspect it consumes a good deal of power. Plus, y'know, struggling to maintain their infrastructure at the level it existed at before the Collapse, due to retro-tech.

True; private property in the sense of ownership of capital, businesses, factories, etc, cannot exist without a state (or at least some overarching authority or legal framework) who will whack someone on the head for trying to take someone else's stuff.
And yet if you go to anarchic places like Somalia, people have a pretty firm concept of "their property," and will tend to either resist having it taken from them, or appeal to some armed self-appointed authority who will.

Chicago MAY not have continuity of the city government, but there have clearly been entities trying to organize and structure and maintain the place. Basic law and order have not completely broken down into barbarism, or we wouldn't have been able to get together anyone with enough of a following to sign the Accords in the first place.

So gloating about how "technically there wasn't a government before, so this was terra nullius or whatever, so we don't have to care about the fact that you used to think these things were yours" isn't going to fly.

We're gonna need to be prepared to at least compensate people. Especially since there may well be people who legitimately did work hard to organize industrial and economic operations we really, really needed, and who haven't been screwing over their workforce or at least haven't been doing so any worse than the conditions themselves would have done without their actions.

Basic housing and food should be supplied by the state in a robust Social Democracy. As well as things like healthcare, water, education, information, and other necessities for life. The goal of the market is to make like better and to offer greater options, not to hold those things you need most hostage.
Being as how we're a post-apocalyptic city state facing overwhelming military threats, we're probably not going to be able to afford to supply much beyond water and if we're lucky food rations. A lot of GDP is going to have to be plowed back into infrastructure or military hardware.

Sweet merciful buddha.
There are legitimate communists in the thread. You would think the damn things track record alone would stamp out the ideology but here we are...
Okay, I'm going to step past the insults and point something out here.

No, it is not as simple as saying "USSR, therefore obviously no form of socialism can ever work and capitalism rocks, checkmate!" That's like saying "Rome was big on roads, and Rome fell, therefore roads suck."

The Soviets had a lot of issues that a communist/socialist/whatever state does not have to have. The biggest one was a bunch of arrogant jackasses who came up with the doctrine of a "vanguard party" to justify not having to consult the peasants or anyone other than themselves when it came time to make decisions. This was key to why the Bolshevik government became so utterly autocratic, and how Stalin was able to turn it into a murderous engine for repressing and crushing people he didn't like within the USSR's economy.

After the USSR was founded, subsequent communist states were founded with direct help from the USSR, which was generally trying to integrate them into its international network/empire. Which meant they worked very hard to create 'communist' countries in their own image, that is to say, dictatorships.

Any communist who says "okay, in future, no dictatorships" and sticks to that rule is likely to avoid almost all the problems that brought down the USSR and the other Soviet bloc nations in the Cold War.
 
And yet if you go to anarchic places like Somalia, people have a pretty firm concept of "their property," and will tend to either resist having it taken from them, or appeal to some armed self-appointed authority who will.

That's because Anarchy, the political ideology, and anarchy, the term for the violent collapse of society, are not related.
 
I mean, sympathetic as I am to pointing out that "hey business as usual is pretty terrible and we can do better," but this proposed solution runs into a problem:

Which workers?

Like, say we have a diner. It's a holdover from before the Accords, so they've got security guards, line cooks, waiters, and the owner all in the same shop. All of a sudden, however, the legal code gets your proposed compromise in. The line cooks are paid well, and so are the waiters; the security guards are paid best of all, but they feel like their pay should be increased both because they work in hazardous positions and because the owner is only neutral to them instead of being friendly like the owner is to the line cooks and the waiters.

Should the security guards be allowed to seize the business from the owner over the objections of the line cooks and waiters?

Well let's dissect this example a bit.

The diner probably has security guards, and probably quite a few to boot, because of the post-collapse conditions requiring said private security. Once you get a degree of a functioning social system in place many of them, though probably not all, would probably end up getting hired or working for the police/militia/defense forces/whatever the fuck we're calling the people with guns whose main job is to shoot bandits and warlords. That by itself would lead to a significant change in the dynamic at the diner.

Let's say tho that isn't a factor and you've got a situation where the security guards want to seize the business but no one else does. The way it would probably work, at least in a fashion that keeps things from going all petty crime boss toute suite, is you'd see a vote by all the workers who are there and a sufficient threshold (probably more of a supermajority than a simple one) agree then they'd put in for funds from the city/raise it from other sources to buy it out. No one is saying, "hey let's have a free for all!" but are saying that encouraging, promoting and supporting workplace democracy as much as possible would be the most ideal outcome given circumstances and ultimate aims. Such a free for all, if nothing else, would be a huge security hazard that the Victorians would gleefully exploit.

This of course leaves aside that not all businesses operating in Chicago would be privately owned. Some, like say keeping the lights on, would probably be publicly owned/operated/something along those lines or should be simply because of how vital such functions are to keeping everything working. Others, like say weapons production, really very strongly should be under direct state control to prevent perverse incentives from creating situations where Chicagoan weapons are used to shoot Chicagoan troops because that's profitable for the arms manufacturers. In the case of such public enterprises I think it would be highly appropriate to have them manage day to day operations in a directly democratic fashion that is subject to oversight and broader setting of priorities by the Chicago government.

The thing is, regardless of the specific position anyone is taking, we are operating in a very different situation from present day. Present day assumptions simply don't work. Quite a few things will have to be changed, tweaked, tossed out or overhauled for us to beat the Victorians and rebuild the continent in a vaguely recognizable fashion. I think workplace democracy is a thing that will help achieve that in conjunction with a lot of other economic structures, reforms and processes that are very different from what we're living in now. Given conditions as well as their proven positives operating under more marginal conditions than conventional neoliberal corporate free market economics has ever actually faced I think what I'm proposing as specifics is a reasonable, effective solution and foundation for something stronger.
 
Guys. This is a fiction thread. This is not where we debate how society should be organized in real life, this is where we talk about making a new America from the shattered ashes of the old. The practicality of an idea irl is somewhat important yes, but I'd very much like for this to get resolved through voting, because ultimately this is @PoptartProdigy's story, and they have the final verdict of what is even allowed to proceed, let alone succeed. Now can we like, talk about the actual government we want to make and why it's the best option specifically in regards to the present situation as we know it? Like, we are not a developed country right now, we have no rule of law, no real means of transporting goods over large stretches of land and likely thus no giant corporations. We are talking about an economy that is likely highly localized and not in the best of shape. Until we actually industrialize, conditions on the ground are probably closer to something like China pre-Deng than the present day US, so our priority should be "well how do we fix this?", not "what would be ideal", and that includes being willing to compromise with other posters to a point. But since this looks intractable, can we save it for the actual vote, or at least some of it?
 
Give me citations plz.
Well, I live in one of those countries but if that isn't enough for you:
http://www.oim.dk/media/14947/social-policy-in-denmark.pdf
A quote from the above: "All citizens in need are entitled to receive social security benefits and social services – regardless of their affiliation to the labour market."
In regards to housing: "all groups in the Danish society have a possibility to find modern habitations that are appropriate given their needs and economic resources."

And here's a bit of general information: Nordic model - Wikipedia
 
And yet if you go to anarchic places like Somalia, people have a pretty firm concept of "their property," and will tend to either resist having it taken from them, or appeal to some armed self-appointed authority who will.

Chicago MAY not have continuity of the city government, but there have clearly been entities trying to organize and structure and maintain the place. Basic law and order have not completely broken down into barbarism, or we wouldn't have been able to get together anyone with enough of a following to sign the Accords in the first place.

So gloating about how "technically there wasn't a government before, so this was terra nullius or whatever, so we don't have to care about the fact that you used to think these things were yours" isn't going to fly.

I'm not trying to gloat; I'm pointing out that private property is also enforced by violence (or threat of) and making an observation on the concept.

Also yes, anarchy versus anarchism, etc.
 
Well, I live in one of those countries but if that isn't enough for you:
http://www.oim.dk/media/14947/social-policy-in-denmark.pdf
A quote from the above: "All citizens in need are entitled to receive social security benefits and social services – regardless of their affiliation to the labour market."
In regards to housing: "all groups in the Danish society have a possibility to find modern habitations that are appropriate given their needs and economic resources."

And here's a bit of general information: Nordic model - Wikipedia

Okay. Reading it I'm seeing a lot of buzzwords, but it does appear to bear out your claims that the welfare state is robust enough to not actually require someone to rent themselves out on pain of starvation. I, as an american, apparently have a somewhat skewed idea of what "welfare state" means. I still would prefer market socialism because I want the principal of rule by consent to be extended as far as possible, but it isn't as pressing in a robust social democracy as it is in a neoliberal hellscape.

However, there is a problem with going social democracy in this thread. We don't have the surpluses for it. We need to re-industrialize, which means we absolutely don't have the production to support a welfare state yet. Which means we need other ways to prevent the exploitation of workers.
 
Well, I live in one of those countries but if that isn't enough for you:
http://www.oim.dk/media/14947/social-policy-in-denmark.pdf
A quote from the above: "All citizens in need are entitled to receive social security benefits and social services – regardless of their affiliation to the labour market."
In regards to housing: "all groups in the Danish society have a possibility to find modern habitations that are appropriate given their needs and economic resources."

And here's a bit of general information: Nordic model - Wikipedia
I grew up in Norway, and can second the reality of such societies existing, and thriving. Very... social way of organising, you might say. Socialist, even, and very nice to live in for it.
Nevertheless as others have observed, organised in a wealthy western state, with- in Norways case in particular- the benefit of (sensibly invested state) oil money.
 
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Well, I live in one of those countries but if that isn't enough for you:
http://www.oim.dk/media/14947/social-policy-in-denmark.pdf
A quote from the above: "All citizens in need are entitled to receive social security benefits and social services – regardless of their affiliation to the labour market."
In regards to housing: "all groups in the Danish society have a possibility to find modern habitations that are appropriate given their needs and economic resources."

And here's a bit of general information: Nordic model - Wikipedia

I don't really want any hard feelings, etc; i will say I come at this from a very United States perspective, where social democracy has (so far) not been implemented or has not done well when aspects of it have been attempted.

So I will say that I like social democracy and I'm not opposed to it, I just think it should go farther. :V

I also have issues wrt to centralization of state power and I've heard some horror stories about the SSA here in the States, so I am wary.

Also I apologize, if things got heated or felt like they did; tone is hard to read on the internet and I don't really want to do the internet equivalent of a screaming match, because that doesn't really end well for anyone.
 
No, it is not as simple as saying "USSR, therefore obviously no form of socialism can ever work and capitalism rocks, checkmate!" That's like saying "Rome was big on roads, and Rome fell, therefore roads suck."

  • Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1922–1991)
    Mongolia Mongolian People's Republic (1924–1992)
    Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1943–1992)
    Bulgaria People's Republic of Bulgaria (1946–1990)
    Albania People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1946–1992)
    Poland Polish People's Republic (1947–1989)
    Romania Socialist Republic of Romania (1947–1989)
    Czechoslovakia Czechoslovak Socialist Republic (1948–1990)
    North Korea Democratic People's Republic of Korea (1948–1992)[1]
    Hungary Hungarian People's Republic (1949–1989)
    East Germany German Democratic Republic (1949–1990)
    People's Democratic Republic of Yemen People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (1967–1990)
    Somalia Somali Democratic Republic (1969–1991)
    Republic of the Congo People's Republic of the Congo (1969–1992)
    Ethiopia Provisional Military Government of Socialist Ethiopia (1974–1987)
    Mozambique People's Republic of Mozambique (1975–1990)
    Benin People's Republic of Benin (1975–1990)
    Angola People's Republic of Angola (1975–1992)
    Madagascar Democratic Republic of Madagascar (1975–1992)
    Afghanistan Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978–1992)
    Grenada People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada (1979–1983)
    Cambodia People's Republic of Kampuchea (1979–1989)
    Ethiopia People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia (1987–1991)
    Burkina Faso National Council for the Revolution (1984–1987)
 
Okay. Reading it I'm seeing a lot of buzzwords, but it does appear to bear out your claims that the welfare state is robust enough to not actually require someone to rent themselves out on pain of starvation. I, as an american, apparently have a somewhat skewed idea of what "welfare state" means. I still would prefer market socialism because I want the principal of rule by consent to be extended as far as possible, but it isn't as pressing in a robust social democracy as it is in a neoliberal hellscape.

However, there is a problem with going social democracy in this thread. We don't have the surpluses for it. We need to re-industrialize, which means we absolutely don't have the production to support a welfare state yet. Which means we need other ways to prevent the exploitation of workers.
Well, I don't disagree that we won't be able to implement a welfare state like the Nordic countries at this point in time but that doesn't mean we have to require all private companies to be owned by the workers. It merely means that those workers need viable alternatives to what you describe as "being forced to rent oneself out piecemeal to the authoritarian control of a master on pain of starvation". This can be done without appropriation all privately owned businesses by instead subsidizing worker-owned cooperatives, especially start-ups, and providing jobs in state-controlled companies that focus on tasks we need to get done like repairing the infrastructure of the territory under our control.

I'll also note that I believe industrialization will occur faster with privately owned companies(but not exclusively!). They're usually able to respond faster to demand than cooperatives and particularly the state.
I grew up in Norway, and can second the reality of such societies existing, and thriving. Very... social way of organising, you might say. Socialist, even, and very nice to live in for it.
Nevertheless as others have observed, organised in a wealthy western state, with- in Norways case in particular- the benefit of (sensibly invested state) oil money.
Describing it as socialist is not accurate. It certainly shares the ethos of equality with socialism but it tries to achieve this through market capitalism with heavy regulation and redistribution of wealth. Hell, we don't even have a state-mandated minimum wage in Denmark! How's that for socialism?
Also I apologize, if things got heated or felt like they did; tone is hard to read on the internet and I don't really want to do the internet equivalent of a screaming match, because that doesn't really end well for anyone.
Don't worry about it. When it comes to politics, things can get heated but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. As long as people maintain civility and address the arguments, getting heated merely shows that you're passionate about politics, which you absolutely should be! Apathy is the death of democracy.
 

  • Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1922–1991)
    Mongolia Mongolian People's Republic (1924–1992)
    Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1943–1992)
    Bulgaria People's Republic of Bulgaria (1946–1990)
    Albania People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1946–1992)
    Poland Polish People's Republic (1947–1989)
    Romania Socialist Republic of Romania (1947–1989)
    Czechoslovakia Czechoslovak Socialist Republic (1948–1990)
    North Korea Democratic People's Republic of Korea (1948–1992)[1]
    Hungary Hungarian People's Republic (1949–1989)
    East Germany German Democratic Republic (1949–1990)
    People's Democratic Republic of Yemen People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (1967–1990)
    Somalia Somali Democratic Republic (1969–1991)
    Republic of the Congo People's Republic of the Congo (1969–1992)
    Ethiopia Provisional Military Government of Socialist Ethiopia (1974–1987)
    Mozambique People's Republic of Mozambique (1975–1990)
    Benin People's Republic of Benin (1975–1990)
    Angola People's Republic of Angola (1975–1992)
    Madagascar Democratic Republic of Madagascar (1975–1992)
    Afghanistan Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978–1992)
    Grenada People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada (1979–1983)
    Cambodia People's Republic of Kampuchea (1979–1989)
    Ethiopia People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia (1987–1991)
    Burkina Faso National Council for the Revolution (1984–1987)
yeah, and none of those at all ever implemented actual marxism.
 

  • Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1922–1991)
    Mongolia Mongolian People's Republic (1924–1992)
    Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1943–1992)
    Bulgaria People's Republic of Bulgaria (1946–1990)
    Albania People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1946–1992)
    Poland Polish People's Republic (1947–1989)
    Romania Socialist Republic of Romania (1947–1989)
    Czechoslovakia Czechoslovak Socialist Republic (1948–1990)
    North Korea Democratic People's Republic of Korea (1948–1992)[1]
    Hungary Hungarian People's Republic (1949–1989)
    East Germany German Democratic Republic (1949–1990)
    People's Democratic Republic of Yemen People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (1967–1990)
    Somalia Somali Democratic Republic (1969–1991)
    Republic of the Congo People's Republic of the Congo (1969–1992)
    Ethiopia Provisional Military Government of Socialist Ethiopia (1974–1987)
    Mozambique People's Republic of Mozambique (1975–1990)
    Benin People's Republic of Benin (1975–1990)
    Angola People's Republic of Angola (1975–1992)
    Madagascar Democratic Republic of Madagascar (1975–1992)
    Afghanistan Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978–1992)
    Grenada People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada (1979–1983)
    Cambodia People's Republic of Kampuchea (1979–1989)
    Ethiopia People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia (1987–1991)
    Burkina Faso National Council for the Revolution (1984–1987)
Looks rather like a list of states set up and/or propped up by the USSR failing when that authoritarian state faltered and collapsed.
Not entirely sure what the point being made is.

The Roman Republic
The Weimar Republic in Germany
The Kerensky Provisional Government of Russia
Second Spanish Republic 1931-1939
Argentina. Just... Argentina.
The Kuomintang Government of China
Italy 1946-on
The Islamic Democratic Republic of Iraq
 
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