They are mindless. And people are horny through all history. I don't actually think this is... A problem except for how it ups the hedonism index.

That said, I think the response to both small heavens and this is to push out more purpose for the mundane. More work for them to do, for the world and not just themselves.

What action was auto selected by mundane? I can't find it.
 
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They are mindless. And people are horny through all history.

That said, I think the response to both small heavens and this is to push out more purpose for the mundane. More work for them to do, for the world and not just themselves.

What action was auto selected by mundane? I can't find it.
Lesser gods was autoselected. Which is nice because it means we have a free AP.

Side note, I say we spend our Archeology point on either the Summoners or gearing up to go fight the Egg.
 
Yeah idk that I want to earnestly consider how to combat a growing trend of bestiality...maybe forced labor for anyone who does it? Or hopefully there's existing legal consequences? Aka don't make spawns for carnal purposes lol.

On the internal heavens maybe require a rumspringa, that everyone has to travel to another city / notable place early in life. And also requiring service, like a national draft kinda thing.

Otherwise there is lots of juice here, even with our AP spoken for!

Leaning towards one MAP starting the tower of stars to set the stage for the next cycle.
 
To give a little context, in many myths and legends of heavens and utopias, there are lesser, perfectly obediant servants that ensure every needs of humanity is fullfilled.
Since the Spawns would be those servants in the little heavens being made, well....
 
On a lesser but more…unseemly way, somewhat ashamed members of the Mundane Council have come before the Order to speak of a growing trend amongst the Mundanes, that seek to relive…carnal need with the Spawns, and are asking for more…responsive and human-like Spawns for their…desires quite loudly.

They do not know how to react to this and neither do the Philosophers.


[] [Spawn-Lovers] Write-In, reaction to the…Spawn-lovers. Doing nothing is, of course, a possibility.
I rolled 69 on an event roll….
I know that 'rolls of 69 = lewd' is a popular idea, but it's not a hard rule you have to follow. If you don't have good ideas for it or just don't want to, you don't have to respond to a roll of 69 as anything but a normal roll.
 
I'm strongly leaning 'do nothing', re spawns. Certainly not going to make sexbots homunculi. Maybe go so far as to make an announcement, but actual punishments about it?

It's a little like prohibition. Spawns are everywhere. It'd be close to unenforcable, ande trying to actually ban it would be massively expensive. And again, spawns are literally mindless. Not even so much brain as a dog, IIUC. The only one they're hurting is themselves. Why is this our concern?
 
It's a little like prohibition. Spawns are everywhere. It'd be close to unenforcable, ande trying to actually ban it would be massively expensive. And again, spawns are literally mindless. Not even so much brain as a dog, IIUC. The only one they're hurting is themselves. Why is this our concern?
It's neither unenforcable nor expensive, since we could just make the spawn that're being fucked punish said fuckers? Put them in stocks or something?

I do want some punishment, because while I think some folks can use sex bots and be kind and consentful with human partners, others I think can't. That it isn't healthy to model sex as something with a perfect obedient servant, because some folks will take that attitude and assumptions into sex with another person. We don't want this to flourish into a trend trolo. At least not without education around it.

It also seems disrespectful to the gifts of the Philosophers, like hey we made these creatures to create wonders and better your lives...and you're fucking them. Misusing or misappropriating maybe as the crime?

More generally ensuring that Mundanes respect us and don't see us as a pinata to gift them stuff is an interesting problem, best solved I think by Meditations on Craft and Glorious Sharing and the like, but we're not there yet so curtailing things is more complicated.

also lol said I didn't want to delve into this particular quagmire but can't help myself.
 
So we make an announcement, 'spawns are not for sex, find a human lover and be kind to them'. And leave it at that.
 
Its more of a societal problem then anything, given all the other excesses they have. The problem is the advocacy for more human likeness of the spawns being used for their carnal needs. Why is this occurring and what needs to be done about it very related. It may just be a phase they will go out of next turn or something more indicative of a need for more personal expression and community activities to get people interacting with other people and having a relationship instead of abusing the spawns.
 
I'm leaning against the whole spawn thing. It reeks of hedonism to me it reminds me of the eldar from 40k and crosses some taboo lines. The fact that they technically can't consent to anything being mindless and are more programmed animals than anything. In short it comes across as gross.
 
so what you're saying is, if the the spawn were sapient and were shaped like people it wouldn't be as much of a problem. Hmmmmmm. We should definitely do mind of bronze, along with chains of obedience maybe. because researching how a computer creature works can only help us with making something like a computer.
 
Allright, so! A new update! yayyyy! Lot's of interesting thing and one...uh, thing that definintly happened. So, to look over all the new stuff we've aquired.

[][Heavens] Write-In, propose a potential way to deal with the making of the small Heavens.

Each turn, the two most voted proposals will be tested on a small scale by the Order, until a permanent solution is chosen amongst tested proposals, or the Heavens are built without intervention from the Order.
This is, i think one of the easiest most important votes of this turn, and onward. You can see from the lesser heaven action later down, we got about 16 turns of this to test and refine. And that's assuming we're not gonna put any AP, or more importantly, the mundanve conclave isn't doing it, so probaly around 8-10 turns, if i had to make a rough guess.

My first thought is something along the lines of "Let the young test their apptitue amongst the professions, untill they find one that brings joy, so that those who's mind grow old and bodies frail, may enjoy peace", so basically heaven as a retirement place, stuff. It's my first thought, but i'm marketly worse at the write in options in this quest so far, so i'll be looking at what other people says.
[] [Spawn-Lovers] Write-In, reaction to the…Spawn-lovers. Doing nothing is, of course, a possibility.

Well, it's a thing...Jokes and reactions aside, my inclination is to do nothing. People are free to..uhm, like what they like, and while i don't think the Order should be providing spawns for this stuff, any "re-education", is tad too totolitarion for me. So, just something to either say we're not doing anything, is my general thought.
[] The course of Doom

So, this is i think going to be a critical action sooner or later. The primary reason why we are venturing into space is because of the Doom, so this is something we're going to have to do. That being said, i think we'll want to this after we do the Dawn-Watcher's different astriology actions, so that we may have the best kind of knowledge going into this, since this is most likely going to be an action that is going to take lives regardless of how much we prepare. And..There is still the worry over the fact that God-fortress can apparently get corrupted and this most certainly seems like a way that might happen.

We may even potentially want to create "illumination/Warding" kind of God-Fortress for this job spesifically.
[] Scavenging of Celestial Materials
At face value this seems like an action to just gain more voidstone for crafting, but hmm. The second circle astriology sign makes me wonder if we could potentially get higher rewards from this. I actually kinda want to try this.
[] Constructive Rebirth of Forgotten Violences [Sundial Tower] [Path of History] [Mundane] [0/1] NEW
[] Temple-Maze of Xipe Topec [Mundane][Tower that Think] [0/1] NEW
So! We almost certainly want to do the Forgotten violence action before we do the Egg, and the Temple-Maze in general is just really good. Enchanted in both rewards and the tower that think's domain wielding. So, i think we really want to do this before we do any of the exploration, and we should have a free Ap. But to make something Clear, @OldShadow These two actions are underneath the "Explore the Past", but not the "Expiditions", can we use the Past-Dwellers AP on these two or is it just expiditions?
-[] Lords of Ice NEW
Interesting action. Not quite sure what this might lead to honestly, besides a better mastery of things. We may want to do this action, if we're planning on doing Delt stuff though, so we'll have an God ready to go and steward over Dert together with the Order.
[] Mind of Bronze [Mundane] [0/1] NEW

This is really cool, bronze age computers powered by Gods and Faith, is such a radical image. Like steampunk but even earlier. Bronzepunk(?) Something like that.
[] A Forest in the Ice [Living Tower] [0/1] NEW

Here is the Dert action. I think we'll want to do the Sow the Seas and Lords of Ice before we start potentially poking on this one, so we'll have allready tested sea-actions before we comit, since we can only pull this lever once.

Overall, really cool and new stuff to explore! Even if i don't think a lot of them is going to be hyper relevant this turn, since we are commited.

Now, to repeat! Our general goal is to do all the Path of Elements actions together at the end of the cycle, for the maxium level of synergy, we've been holding back a lot for this, so i for one am really excited for this!

The basis, i think for any plan this turn would be something like this

[] Plan Basis of All
-[] Sowing the Fields of Tomorrow [Mundane] [Living Tower] [Singing Shepherds]
-[] Pasture of Tomorrow [0/1] [Gardeners, Healers], -1MAP
-[] City of Growth and Health [1/2] [Use 1 Scale] [Living Tower ; Tower that Think] [Gardener; Healers;Potiooners] [Path of the Elements], -1 AP
-[] Fires of the Earth [0/1] [Sundial Tower] [Path of the Elements], -1AP
-[] Straightening of the World [3/4] [Mundane] [Sundial Tower] [Precises] [Path of the Elements] [Gardeners], -1AP
-[] Purify the Storm [2/3] [Path of the Elements] [White Tower; Living Tower], -1AP
-[] Build the Heavenly Cities [Mundane]
-[] Temples of the Lesser Gods [Elementals] [1/2] [Tower that Think] [Precises], -1 Conclave MAP

This finishes both our Path of Elements, as well as all the Gift of Health actions, so we'll have done everything we've set up to do. This leaves us with 2 MAP, Citalee and one Past Dwellers action. Now, we got several different options on what to do with these, but i'd like to know if we can spend the Past Dwellers action on the Temple-Maze, because i really want to do that one regardless. So, if we have to spend MAP or can spend archeology point on it will change stuff. , i think the earlier for the Temple-maze is the better for this.

After OldShadow's responce, i'll start drafting a proper plan, and hearing what people would like and didn't like about it, and where to put our heroes. I got some thoughts~
 
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@Killerbot2002

More that I think it might lead to a slide downward. Rampant hedonism has a way of turning self destructive. We are already giving them a lot. Too much will lead to greed and worse.

How would making intelligent spawn for this be any better? It sounds like a form of slavery.
 
Let's not get too distracted about the Spawn, we got tons of different things to discuss, even if the mundanes did the equviliant of throwing a bomb into the Order's meeting here :V
 
So, first draft for a potential plan this turn. I'll admit this one can change a lot once OldShadow get's back regarding the Past-Dwellers thing.
[] Plan The Cycle Completes, as a Tower is Raised.
-[] Sowing the Fields of Tomorrow [Mundane] [Living Tower] [Singing Shepherds]
-[] Pasture of Tomorrow [0/1] [Gardeners, Healers], -1MAP
-[] City of Growth and Health [1/2] [Use 1 Scale] [Living Tower ; Tower that Think] [Gardener; Healers;Potiooners] [Path of the Elements], -1 AP [Abandonner of Distance]
-[] Fires of the Earth [0/1] [Sundial Tower] [Path of the Elements], -1AP [Dawn Watcher]
-[] Straightening of the World [3/4] [Mundane] [Sundial Tower] [Precises] [Path of the Elements] [Gardeners], -1AP [Dreaming Architect]
-[] Purify the Storm [2/3] [Path of the Elements] [White Tower; Living Tower], -1AP
-[] Build the Heavenly Cities [Mundane]
-[X] Temples of the Lesser Gods [Elementals] [1/2] [Tower that Think] [Precises], -1 Conclave MAP
-[] Temple-Maze of Xipe Topec [Mundane][Tower that Think] [0/1], -1MAP/Archeology(?)
-[] The Broken Soldier, -Citalee
- [] A Tower to the Stars [Mundane] [Every Towers] [0/6, at least 2 of the total used must by AP and not MAP], -1 MAP

So, this is based around both finishing the Path of Elements we've been working towards this entire time, while completing all the Gift's of Health actions, which i think would be very nice in regards to the Order's Morale. I'm putting one action towards the Temple-Maze, simply because it's just a really good action, that is going to improve all the expidition attempts, and potential domains.

The Tower to the Star is slightly as a placeholder? People seem to like it, so i'm willing to comit a MAP to it, but swapping it out for something like mind of bronze if people are more inclined towards that is fine as well.

So, our 3 hero's. For Wertifi, i think there's only one place she can go this turn, and that's to the Straightening the World. So far, through the actions we've read about it, the straightening of the World has gone through 4 Phases. The planning, the Body, the mind and now is going to do the Spirit.

Now, the spirit is the domain of Gods in this quest, and we want to make doubly sure that the straightening of the World is aligned with the Gods, since the Gods is our main source of huge power. If something is going to go critically wrong here, it's going to be on this part. Now Wertifi, the dreaming Architect is of the Tower that think, who's primary purpose is God-Herding.

I think, if we want to enjoy a full benefit from this action, i think wertifi needs to go on this action. While there are other's Wertifi is going to benefit, i think the fact this is our only 4 AP action, one of the main focuses, means this is the best possible place for her.

That leaves The Dawn Watcher and Abandooner of Gaps, and this is where it get's a tad more compliacted. We want to assigned a hero to Fires of Earth. This is the dangerous action, and we want to make sure this doesn't blow up in our face, so it becomes a question of which Hero is best assigned to this.

My primary leaning right now, is that the Dawn Watcher is going to better one for this, but as other people have talked about, he'd be really good for the Purify the Storm actions. Meanwhile, Abandonner of Gaps is probaly best suited for City of Growth or Lesser Temples. I personaly want to put Dawn Watcher on Fires of Earth and Abandooner on City of Growth, but this is a tad up in the air, yeah?

As For Citalee, while we could send her back to the Workshops, i don't think we've discovered that many new things, that it's going to be worthwhile right now, so i think we'll want to explore with her. I'm leaning towards either attempting the Scavening of Celestial Materials(though honestly, this probaly won't be Citalee's skillfield), or to explore the Broken Soldier.

As for our exploration action, unless we're building the Forgotten violence this turn, we should attempt to avoid actions where combat is to be expected. I think the Valley would be the best one at first glance here?

Edit: Actually, the Dawn Watcher want's to see ever greater Storm then what's on Cradle. So i think we may want to explore either Gorv or Oa. Since those two seems like the planets that are most likely to actually have Storm's on them. So we could potentially give means for Dawn Watcher to do that in future turns.
 
So! We almost certainly want to do the Forgotten violence action before we do the Egg, and the Temple-Maze in general is just really good. Enchanted in both rewards and the tower that think's domain wielding. So, i think we really want to do this before we do any of the exploration, and we should have a free Ap. But to make something Clear, @OldShadow These two actions are underneath the "Explore the Past", but not the "Expiditions", can we use the Past-Dwellers AP on these two or is it just expiditions?
You can use Past-Dwellers AP on everything under Explore the Past.

Let's not get too distracted about the Spawn, we got tons of different things to discuss, even if the mundanes did the equviliant of throwing a bomb into the Order's meeting here :V
Yes, this is the thing, the Order do not have a framework to deal with this. In particular, thing like "human rights" and "slavery is bad as a principle" do not truly exist yet. A good way to understand this is that the Order consider torturing Mundanes evil BUT do not consider torture evil.
The Order as a philosophy, but no form of universal ethic or morality as we, modern people, would understand it.
The Mundane, on the other hand, are many, extremely diverse bronze age cultures in a period of societal changes, witch mean the Mundane Concil do not have any universal framework to deal with this issue.
This is the reason why this is purely a write-in : there are no "traditional" or "logical according to practice" response to such issues.
 
Quick reply about Spawns since I'm out, but since we built a very robust education system, it would be well within our means to, through rumours and oh-so-accidental slipped words, let go that the Order frowns upon using mindless servitor beasts for "entertainment". It's not forbidden, it's just... gauche and somewhat disrespectful to yourself, your fellow humans and the works of Philosophers.

On the other appendage, it's been 5 generations since the beginning, the Spawn are pretty much taken for granted by populace.
 
The Tower to the Star is slightly as a placeholder? People seem to like it, so i'm willing to comit a MAP to it, but swapping it out for something like mind of bronze if people are more inclined towards that is fine as well.
Yeah I'm leaning towards mind of bronze. Just so we can fit it in and get it done. I have a feeling it'll help a lot with Astrology, given what the Antykythera mechanism was thought to be for. And also it'll help us understand and progress with our other computer style stuff.
 
You can use Past-Dwellers AP on everything under Explore the Past.


Yes, this is the thing, the Order do not have a framework to deal with this. In particular, thing like "human rights" and "slavery is bad as a principle" do not truly exist yet. A good way to understand this is that the Order consider torturing Mundanes evil BUT do not consider torture evil.
The Order as a philosophy, but no form of universal ethic or morality as we, modern people, would understand it.
The Mundane, on the other hand, are many, extremely diverse bronze age cultures in a period of societal changes, witch mean the Mundane Concil do not have any universal framework to deal with this issue.
This is the reason why this is purely a write-in : there are no "traditional" or "logical according to practice" response to such issues.
Righto! So, that makes me inclinced towards to potential path we could do this turn. One, where go all in on the Past-Dwellers and try to comit to the Egg this turn, by doing both the build actions with the MAP points.
[] Plan Answers Shall be demanded
-[] Sowing the Fields of Tomorrow [Mundane] [Living Tower] [Singing Shepherds]
-[] Pasture of Tomorrow [0/1] [Gardeners, Healers], -1MAP
-[] City of Growth and Health [1/2] [Use 1 Scale] [Living Tower ; Tower that Think] [Gardener; Healers;Potiooners] [Path of the Elements], -1 AP [Abandonner of Distance]
-[] Fires of the Earth [0/1] [Sundial Tower] [Path of the Elements], -1AP [Dawn Watcher]
-[] Straightening of the World [3/4] [Mundane] [Sundial Tower] [Precises] [Path of the Elements] [Gardeners], -1AP [Dreaming Architect]
-[] Purify the Storm [2/3] [Path of the Elements] [White Tower; Living Tower], -1AP
-[] Build the Heavenly Cities [Mundane]
-[X] Temples of the Lesser Gods [Elementals] [1/2] [Tower that Think] [Precises], -1 Conclave MAP
-[] Constructive Rebirth of Forgotten Violences [Sundial Tower] [Path of History] [Mundane] [0/1], -1 MAP
-[] Temple-Maze of Xipe Topec [Mundane][Tower that Think] [0/1], -1 MAP
-[] Seek the Egg [0/1][Path of History], -1 Archeology Point
-[] Gorv, Forge of the Titans, -Citalee

This of course, has the issue of us maybe not being able to properly defeat the Egg without casulities, but i think that overall, sinec we're doing both the temple maze and Forgotten violence it should be fine. This means we're not doing much else, but that's fine by itself too.

The other way around, is to let Past-Dwellers build the Temple-Maze, while we comit our MAP point towards the Tower and Mind of Bronze, since people want to do both. I'd kinda like to actually do the City-Fortress too, but it cost 2 MAP, and i'm unsure if people would be willing to do it. I think, tying together God-Fortress and God-Cities into one art, while potentially ensuring our cities are properly protected in case the Fires of Earth does go really bad isn't bad. Of course, that means we're getting to do neither Tower nor Mind of Bronze.

[] Plan A Tower High as the cycle finishes.
-[] Sowing the Fields of Tomorrow [Mundane] [Living Tower] [Singing Shepherds]
-[] Pasture of Tomorrow [0/1] [Gardeners, Healers], -1MAP
-[] City of Growth and Health [1/2] [Use 1 Scale] [Living Tower ; Tower that Think] [Gardener; Healers;Potiooners] [Path of the Elements], -1 AP [Abandonner of Distance]
-[] Fires of the Earth [0/1] [Sundial Tower] [Path of the Elements], -1AP [Dawn Watcher]
-[] Straightening of the World [3/4] [Mundane] [Sundial Tower] [Precises] [Path of the Elements] [Gardeners], -1AP [Dreaming Architect]
-[] Purify the Storm [2/3] [Path of the Elements] [White Tower; Living Tower], -1AP
-[] Build the Heavenly Cities [Mundane]
-[X] Temples of the Lesser Gods [Elementals] [1/2] [Tower that Think] [Precises], -1 Conclave MAP
-[] Temple-Maze of Xipe Topec [Mundane][Tower that Think] [0/1], -1 Archeology Point
-[] A Tower to the Stars [Mundane] [Every Towers] [0/6, at least 2 of the total used must by AP and not MAP], -1MAP
-[] Mind of Bronze [Mundane] [0/1], -1MAP
-[] Gorv, Forge of the Titans, -Citalee

Swapping Both Citalee actions over to Gorv for now. It seems like the Planet that's most potential storm-like for now for the Dawn Watcher to potentially be able to poke at before he dies. We're probaly getting to the half-way point for his lifespan after all.
 
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-[] City of Growth and Health [1/2] [Use 1 Scale] [Living Tower ; Tower that Think] [Gardener; Healers;Potiooners] [Path of the Elements], -1 AP [Abandonner of Distance]
-[] Fires of the Earth [0/1] [Sundial Tower] [Path of the Elements], -1AP [Dawn Watcher]
I think Abandonner on Fires of the Earth. She is from the Sundial Tower which the action is for, which I assume will be more useful than someone from another tower? And thematically could hopefully redirect errant spurts of magma into unused space if shit hits the fan.
 
We could potentially assign both Dawn Watcher and Abandoner to the Fires of Earth too. There is nothing stopping us from doing that. The main problem with something like that, is if the Two people have contesting personalities. Which i don't think these two would have? Though that's a question more up to Crusaderstar and Lord_Abaddon their creator to know.

Edit: That being said, while i'm leaning towards Fires of Earth for Dawn Watcher, and Abandooner for City, do most people here prefer to swap around, with Abandooner on Fires of Earth and Dawn Watcher on Purify the Storm?

I think Abandonner on Fires of the Earth. She is from the Sundial Tower which the action is for, which I assume will be more useful than someone from another tower? And thematically could hopefully redirect errant spurts of magma into unused space if shit hits the fan.

The way to consider Hero's in my opinion is more in regard to their expertise and what they can do. What we've wanted to do with all the Path of Elements, is to potentially unlock the Mountain Tower at the end of this. That's why we've been slow-walking Straightent the earth, and then doing Fires of Earth at the last turn. Because Philosphopy demands that one is immersed in the mentallty and faith required to do it, and we're starting from zero with this, that means we kinda needed to train up new Philosphers for a potential new Tower. So, by doing all of the straightening actions into Fires of Earth, we're hoping to give people the mentality that people of the Mountain Tower would require.

My main worry, is that Abandooner, specality, that is manipulation of space, isn't going to be hugely immensive for Fires of earth, and putting on a Hero of the sundial Tower, might make the Fires of Earth action, too much in line with Sundial Tower, and not enough Tower of Mountain, which would be the best possible results.

Meanwhile, Dawn Watcher is of the White Tower, so we'd have included both of the Astriology tower in this last action towards unlocking the third astriology tower, so we'd be having a great mix of all three things. And the Dawn Watcher is more geared towards "foreseeing the future", as part of the White Tower ,so while Abandoner might be good at mitigating the Disaster that's happening, i think Dawn Watcher would be better at mitigating the Disaster from happening. While he might also better server towards hopefully making the Disciples of the Mountain Tower that may one day be, come into furition.

That's my main reasoning for why i'd prefer to have Dawn Watcher assigned to this over Abandoner.
 
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We could potentially assign both Dawn Watcher and Abandoner to the Fires of Earth too. There is nothing stopping us from doing that. The main problem with something like that, is if the Two people have contesting personalities. Which i don't think these two would have? Though that's a question more up to Crusaderstar and Lord_Abaddon their creator to know.
I like putting both on Fires of Earth! I don't think they would clash personality wise, maybe give each other shit but not to level of negative cooperation. Abandoner mostly has problems with older philosophers disrespecting her because of her youth, which I assume relatively young Dawn Watcher can empathize with.

The way to consider Hero's in my opinion is more in regard to their expertise and what they can do.
I def agree their specialties are important, but I also think a Hero is always going to be more impactful on actions tagged with their tower, in part because they're more than their specialties. They're trained in all the secrets of their tower. Sundial and White Tower are both Divination thus more similar than other towers so maybe there is overlap, but I've always assumed each Tower being fairly isolated in their secrets and powers.

So if an action is tagged White Tower I think Dawn Watcher is pretty much always going to be a better pick than Abandoner, unless it SUPER lines up with her space specialty.

But! We don't actually know :p.
 
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