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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

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LoganBert34 said:
*Waves Austerity Flag*

*Gets murdered*

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Do you want things to get worse? Because that's how you make them worse.

No one in the private sphere is ready to invest in time of crisis. In fact, that's exactly the definition of crisis. People are pulling their money back. Which in turn means less money is made, because you kinda need money to make money. Leading to even less investment. The only actor left to start the economic machine again is the state.

The right time to cut weight is when things are going great, so that the people you fire can easily find work again and you save for the next crisis, or repay debt from the previous one, in order to be ready next time.

The only people benefiting from austerity in time of crisis are the ones holding the debt. And even then, only short term because if the economy isn't solved, repaying a little bit more now won't help repay a lot more down the line.
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
That said, I hope everybody has fun engaging with this. I know I'm having fun writing it.
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Considering how nonsensical the situation is I regard that as a bad sign.

Diplomacy:
[ ] Destroy Racial Governments
[ ] Hard Times, Hard Decisions

First is needed to remain a dictator. Second is cheap.

Stewardship:
[ ] Colony Launch
[ ] Public Works Projects

First is a no-brainer. Second is the only real fix for this 'problem'. I would go for nationalisation but the GM seems rather biased.

Intrigue:
Meh.

Learning :
[ ] Crash Courses
 
Dwergar said:
Well, how about a write-in?
[] [INTRIGUE] Fast and Loose
This whole crisis has unfolded due to two simple facts - you pieced the facts together too late, and everyone else - too early. As it is, government is forced to react instead of acting, something that should not be.
Shurna has a proposal. Disgusting, risky, illegal and expensive as hell... But is might work.
Economists, promoted and silenced. Directors, pressed and rewarded. Companies, supported and folded. Owners, informed and not.
Paychecks, paid. Plants, working.
Economy shall not crash, for you didn't order so.
Time: Whatever QM assigns.
Chance of Success: Whatever QM assigns.
Cost: Whatever QM assigns.
Effect: MoF has the lead in these times, for only they are qualified to deal with the current crisis - yet they are bound by laws, and Shurna is not. What can't be done with governmental contracts, shall be accomplished by information control, discrete funding, blackmail and, if need be, polite men with big smiles and bigger guns.
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...leaving aside for the moment all other possible objections to this proposal, you do realize that the economy has already crashed, yes?
Angelform said:
I would go for nationalisation but the GM seems rather biased.
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In fairness, the inefficiencies of centralized control - and it does bring some inefficiencies, I hope you can agree, even if their magnitude is up for dispute - should reasonably be magnified when the economy being controlled is that of an entire planet. Like...questions of scale are a real factor here, and I don't think our current techbase has sufficient facilitators to make back the difference (since we don't have, e.g., administrative AIs).
 
Wiadi said:
In fairness, the inefficiencies of centralized control - and it does bring some inefficiencies, I hope you can agree, even if their magnitude is up for dispute - should reasonably be magnified when the economy being controlled is that of an entire planet. Like...questions of scale are a real factor here, and I don't think our current techbase has sufficient facilitators to make back the difference (since we don't have, e.g., administrative AIs).
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We have advanced computers and optimization algorithms, if not intelligent ones. Which is more than can be said of any real life planned economy attempts, which all had to rely massively on human and corruptible bureaucracy. We don't have instant solutions, but we have a lot more tools than they did.

The result would probably still be slower and less dynamic or adaptive than a free market economy, but it would probably be much more stable. We would have to build the bureaucracy and organization skills from the ground up though. Or not, since we've basically been doing that for our military, so we may have some experience.

The big risk is what happen if we're attacked when we're still reorganizing.

What we could do more easily would be a partial nationalization of the most crucial interests, and the most threatened ones, while leaving the small businesses and less relevant things alone. We can do a lot simply by scooping up the failing companies.
 
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Nyvis said:
We have advanced computers and optimization algorithms, if not intelligent ones. Which is more than can be said of any real life planned economy attempts, which all had to rely massively on human and corruptible bureaucracy. We don't have instant solutions, but we have a lot more tools than they did.
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You are still administering PEOPLE.
People do things like embezzle the budget in the middle of a genocidal war. Like plan to attack and conquer a nation orders of magnitude their size.
Like argue about national secrets while facing down double digit dreadnoughts.

There are things that do well with nationalization, or at least strict government oversight.
The entirety of an interstellar nation-state is not one of those things.
Even the Reapers didn't attempt to micromanage their entire nation's economy, such as it was.
 
Attempting to keep market economy working at a gunpoint is an idea I never heard about before. I wonder how horribly can it backfire?

 
uju32 said:
You are still administering PEOPLE.
People do things like embezzle the budget in the middle of a genocidal war. Like plan to attack and conquer a nation orders of magnitude their size.
Like argue about national secrets while facing down double digit dreadnoughts.
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We've done pretty well with corruption cleaning. It mostly takes political will to out the people doing it. And not being one of them, of course. Most of the problems you list will still happen in a free market economy, just done by corporations, contractors and private agents. People we have less control and oversight over.

War isn't the place where planned economy struggles the most. Peace is, because it has less drive for change, evolution and improvement.

I don't know what your point about the reapers is. Each reaper is a nation, as they say, and they directly control everything. But they don't have the human failure aspect, so it's irrelevant.

I made a plan because I was curious:

[ ] Plan War communism
-[ ][DIPLOMACY] Hard Times, Hard Decisions
--[ ][DOUBLE DOWN]
-[ ][DIPLOMACY] Special Addresses
-[ ][ECONOMY] Nationalize Everything
-[ ][ECONOMY] Public Works Projects
-[ ][INTRIGUE] Formalize Ministerial Security
-[ ][INTRIGUE] Looking for Sponsors
-[ ][LEARNING] Crash courses
-[ ][PERSONAL] Personal Attention - Hard Times, Hard Decisions
-[ ][PERSONAL] Personal Attention - Nationalize Everything
-[ ][PERSONAL] Personal Attention - Public Works Projects

It sounds risky, and we would have to invest in reorganizing everything for a few turns, while at war. But at least we would be able to insure everyone has their basic needs met and our industrial machine keep running. We could try a write in to tone it done a little and only nationalize the most crucial industries if we don't want to face too much bureaucratic work.

Also, it's worth noting nationalizing everything doesn't mean we have to manage everything top down once the crisis passes. We could easily delegate it to more local management systems while still keeping oversight and helping the various pieces coordinate.
 
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Hmm... This crisis makes me wonder...

@PoptartProdigy Does the ME galaxy have an ideology such as democratic socialism, with concepts such as workers' self management and a large welfare state? Speaking of which, what kind of welfare programs does the government have? How strong are corporate regulations?
 
I personally have no interest in using our valuable actions on dealing with non-violent Citadel loyalists when we can use them for absolutely anything else. This crisis won't destroy the independence movement unless we fail to contain and fix this issue in such a spectacularly horrible way that our people end up begging them for aid shipments while cursing Mira's name for centuries to come. Which is why I'd rather use any actions considered for use on CidLoyalists on anything even tangibly related to fixing our economy.
 
Wiadi said:
In fairness, the inefficiencies of centralized control - and it does bring some inefficiencies, I hope you can agree, even if their magnitude is up for dispute - should reasonably be magnified when the economy being controlled is that of an entire planet. Like...questions of scale are a real factor here, and I don't think our current techbase has sufficient facilitators to make back the difference (since we don't have, e.g., administrative Ais).
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Inefficiencies… perhaps. Personally I don't regard CEOs on seven-plus figure salaries as very efficient, but regardless.

The reason I call bias is the 'Massive public approval loss.' part. This is not cold war america, there is no idealogical propaganda flooding the airwaves with anti-socialist rhetoric. We have been at war for decades with everyone knowing we need to dig in for our very survival. And critically Mira T'Vael has a history of sweeping in to deal with problems. The vast majority of the populace should respond to her announcing that she is taking direct control of the economy in order to fix it, just as she did with the government, with at worst a wait-and-see attitude and more likely with outright approval.

The business owners will be annoyed but part of our problem is that we have very few businesses for people to own.
 
Angelform said:
taking direct control
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Missed ME2 reference opportunity...

Only instead of genetic materials, Mira Collects all the levers of state. First Military, then popularism, now economy. If only she could figure out intrigue...

But more seriously, I'm kind of with you that taking over key aspects of the economy should work. There's also public-private sector partnership models, where the government and business split costs, profits and risk as the circumstances dictate.
Heck... having grown up in Norway, I can tell you that socialism actually does function very well here on Earth. Just like 'free' market capitalism, or any human endeavour, it benefits from the right circumstances.
 
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Angelform said:
The reason I call bias is the 'Massive public approval loss.' part. This is not cold war america, there is no idealogical propaganda flooding the airwaves with anti-socialist rhetoric. We have been at war for decades with everyone knowing we need to dig in for our very survival. And critically Mira T'Vael has a history of sweeping in to deal with problems. The vast majority of the populace should respond to her announcing that she is taking direct control of the economy in order to fix it, just as she did with the government, with at worst a wait-and-see attitude and more likely with outright approval.
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Massive is fairly vague. It could mean -20% or -50%. What's sure is that this wouldn't just make enemies, it would make powerful enemies. And they would of course start spewing propaganda to turn the people against us. It sounds reasonable for this to have a steep public approval cost. We're not just cleaning house, we're completely changing the way things are run. Yes, the majority of people would be cautiously approving. Until the rich people this pisses of start reacting and pulling all the stops to polarize opinion against it. Bear in mind that so far, all the council runs on free market, especially for civilian economy.

This doesn't mean it is impossible if paired with diplomacy options to showcase our actions in a positive light.

gutza1 said:
@PoptartProdigy Does the ME galaxy have an ideology such as democratic socialism, with concepts such as workers' self management and a large welfare state? Speaking of which, what kind of welfare programs does the government have? How strong are corporate regulations?
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Looking at canon, it's clear the consensus is free market, especially in that time period. The Asari run businesses in corporations, and have even set up places with very little regulations like Ilium. Though they probably play the long game more often than humans. The Salarians run businesses in the extended family. The Batarians probably have markets too because they buy and sell slaves, though some level of command economy for the military wouldn't surprise me. The Hierarchy will challenge that somewhat when they appear, since they seem to be a state run meritocracy, but they're not there yet. And even then, they look to be run like a military, so not very democratic. The Lystheni were clearly a command economy, but they're not the best example of anything functional.

Insurgent Batarians would probably be our best bet if anyone suggested a democratically controlled economic system.
 
Eh. I personally feel like we should replace corporations with worker-cooperatives and private banks with community or state banks. Democratic socialism forever.
 
uju32 said:
PROPOSAL
[]Plan GustFront
-[]Diplomacy 1: Public Spending Campaign: 35,000*2: 1 year: DC81 - Minister 42 - PA 16 = DC 23
--[][DOUBLE DOWN]
-[]Diplomacy 2: Special Addresses: 30,000: 1 year: DC31 - Minister 11 - PA 16 = DC 4
-[]Stewardship 1: Colony Launch: 47,000: 1 year: DC 16 - Minister 12 = DC4
-[]Stewardship 2: Mass Stimulus: 100,000. -20,000 Income: 1 year: DC36 - Minister 12 - PA 18= DC 6
-[]Intrigue 1: Formalize Ministerial Security: -32,000 Income: 2 years: DC26 - Minister 12= DC 14
-[]Intrigue 2: Looking For Sponsors: 33,000: 1 year: DC40 - Minister 12 = DC 28
-[]Learning 1: Crash Courses: -30,000 Income: XXX: DC 41 - Minister 11= DC 30
-[]Personal 1: Personal Attention Public Spending Campaign
-[]Personal 2: Personal Attention Hard Times Hard Decisions
-[]Personal 3: Personal Attention Mass Stimulus
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Looks like you forgot to change the Personal action to match your new Diplomacy action.
 
Please, could you guys argument rather than pre-voting? This is undermining the purpose of the vote lock. The reason we do things in two stages is to promote discussion.
 
Nyvis said:
Do you want things to get worse? Because that's how you make them worse.

No one in the private sphere is ready to invest in time of crisis. In fact, that's exactly the definition of crisis. People are pulling their money back. Which in turn means less money is made, because you kinda need money to make money. Leading to even less investment. The only actor left to start the economic machine again is the state.

The right time to cut weight is when things are going great, so that the people you fire can easily find work again and you save for the next crisis, or repay debt from the previous one, in order to be ready next time.

The only people benefiting from austerity in time of crisis are the ones holding the debt. And even then, only short term because if the economy isn't solved, repaying a little bit more now won't help repay a lot more down the line.
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I see you are absolutely fun in parties and can see an obvious joke for what it is. :V
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Now, I'm sure there will be write-in proposals, particularly as relates to the ongoing collapse. I will be moderating heavily, as I want to make especially sure to keep the level of abstraction high on this one.
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Write-in's :

Basic Living Supplies. Virmire has been rationing basically everything since the start of the war. That means that we have a robust system of rationing cards, which should be reasonably proof against corruption and other malfeance. Usually, these systems rely on individualized cards that are handed out to the citizenry, shops take those cards when they sell things, and give them to the governement, as proof that people are not exceeding their rations. We can therefore utilize this system (which designed to prevent people from buying too much stuff) to create a system that prevents people from buying too little. Simply, we attach a monetary reward to the fullfilment of rationing cards, which thereby acts as a subsidy for these rationed goods. Perhaps even include a little cashback system for the populace. People are suprisingly willing to spend money in order not to lose a lesser amount of money.

Basically, this is the capitalist version of the Soviet Breadline. The governments decides what you buy and how much, the government pays for it, but all the infrastructure is privately owned. Also sets up some infrastructure for a slow transition to a planned system.

Job Sharing Initiative There are many more unemployed people than there are jobs. A job sharing initiative focuses on reducing work hours per employee, and filling in the rest with extra people. Hopefully, these shorter shifts result in a more aware and capable workforce, instead of a disorganized mess. Of course, the governement will have to pay for the increased loan costs.

This is a bandaid for the job shortage.
 
Nyvis said:
Please, could you guys argument rather than pre-voting? This is undermining the purpose of the vote lock. The reason we do things in two stages is to promote discussion.
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As far as I know, Poptart has never expressed annoyance about people presenting their plans or telling others what they support so I fail to see the problem.


On a different note, nationalization is an absolute deal-breaker to me. I refuse to support a plan that confiscates peoples' private property to such an excessive degree and in doing so violating their sapient rights. I can understand wanting to nationalize certain sectors as long as the previous owners are compensated fairly or temporarily taking control of struggling businesses but I draw the line at the arbitrary seizure of people's lifework.

I could go on a further rant about the dangers of authoritarian socialism but this is neither the time or the place for that.
 
If we're discussing things, I'd like to say that Formalize Ministerial Security is the one option that can make Lissa angry, since it takes a lot of money and doesn't return most them back. Sure, security and stuff, but we are not exactly starving the crowd here and are still quite popular. Tenth of an income of the entire polity is quite a large sum to be paying for a good night's sleep, especially in times of crisis. Plus, it will be very visible to Lissa and I think she is a fan of the whole "citizens have the right to overthrow the government" thing, to a degree.
 
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