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I'd argue the exact opposite.

You assert that relay drift must cause ships to scatter apart. There's literally no evidence at all of this occuring. Every single relay assault has allowed the attacking force to arrive as a single group. Your assertion that they'd scatter appears to be simply made up.

The front page then says this :

These battles favor the defender, and heavily; the attacker can drift up to tens of thousands of kilometers, very unpredictably, and is almost invariably forced to reorient themselves upon transition

Ships can arrive anywhere in a sphere with ~10 000 kilometer radius. Your assertion, that you can put them down into a hole just ~100 km in radius is just that, an assertion. It's extremely unlikely. (1:100 000 odds, more or less)

So, based on those two facts, as well as the GM explicit saying that even the raiding policy will make Dreads for the explicit purpose of defending and assaulting arrays, makes it clear that your position is unjustified. You created a scenario that, quite frankly, appears to be made up solely to justify the BC.
 
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Don't forget that 10,000KM drift is actually pretty small.

It's not unusual to suffer a drift of 100,000KM coming out the Relay.

It's why Joker brags about being able to plonk the Normandy SR-1 within 10,000 KM or so of the Relay.

Reapers, on the other tendril, don't suffer from it, as their IFF and Dark Switches allows them to plonk themselves within a couple of hundred KM.
 
Raiding faces the problem that it needs to go right a lot to pay off and can go wrong only fairly rarely. The Rachni have a massive resource advantage over us right now and they are incredible engineers, rebuilding infrastructure is something they excel at. Our ability to build ships is not nearly so impressive. We would be risking very valuable assets to inflict moderate to minor damage to the enemy. And it would be a risk every time because we'd need to do blind jumps through the relays every time to insert our forces. Recovery is also very tricky because it'll be predictable to the enemy that we'd have to be there, if they stack everything they can on that relay we have a BIG problem. And in the end if it goes right ten times and wrong once we probably lost more than we gained proportionately.

Raiding is a good choice if we somehow feel a desperate need to do as much damage as possible in the next five years at any cost... But that isn't our situation. As @10ebbor10 pointed out this war will still last for centuries unless canon changes immensely. We aren't in a rush here and we aren't going to be winning the war on our own. Cutting the Rachni off from a major relay nexus is an amazing victory, we are more than doing our part. Focusing on holding onto that is probably the most useful thing we can do right now.
 
Trying out the tally program
Adhoc vote count started by StormLord on Nov 6, 2017 at 8:51 PM, finished with 192 posts and 74 votes.
 
Very little. There were only new colonies there when last you checked.
Interesting. And that would have been as of, oh, what... twenty, thirty, forty years ago? So they captured little or no heavy industry on taking the cluster. And in that span of time, it would have been a very disproportionate investment for the rachni to build up an industrial base in the Kepler Verge remotely comparable to Virmire. They'd have little or no incentive to do so.

Thus, we can reasonably infer that the rachni in the Kepler Verge do NOT have defenses on the same scale as what we have/had holding our own relay.

I vehemently disagree. Because Secondary Relays change everything. And suddenly, with raiders in the cluster you have to fortify the Primary relays in nominally safe areas otherwise those raiders might slip in god knows how far into your interior and tear it apart. If the Germans could get raiders off the East Coast, I shudder to think just how far ranging our raiders might be able to manage in the initial period.
Secondary relays have extremely limited range compared to primaries. Unless you systematically activate a chain of secondary relays across great swathes of the galaxy (less like raiding and more like trailblazing, and like trailblazing vulnerable to detection and interception by redeploying enemies), secondaries won't get you from one major cluster to the next.

Thus, they aren't a substitute for the big "relay assaults" via primary relay that enable your raiders to move from a friendly-held cluster to an enemy-held cluster.

But let me have my final words on this: Virmiran Naval Theorists better understand void warfare and the limitations and possibilities imposed by the Relay Network. They would not suggest a commerce raiding doctrine if they did not earnestly expect that it was workable. The argument 'relays make it unfeasible' is not some objective fact, and merely an opinion.
What I think I can confidently state as fact is that transiting primary relays is the biggest problem with raiding doctrines in Mass Effect. Whether it's a big enough problem to render the doctrine inviable depends on circumstance.

Note my exact words: "The biggest problem here is dealing with relay systems. Competently organized raiding doctrine would seem very obviously good... if not for relays. "

Raiding doctrine would obviously be very good, or very obviously good, or both, EXCEPT for the only problem with the doctrine that is large enough to present a serious concern. And that problem is getting a raiding force through a primary relay, something the rachni repeatedly tried and failed to do against us. Granted, maybe we can do better, but it is a concern that should not be dismissed.
 
Raiding doctrine would obviously be very good, or very obviously good, or both, EXCEPT for the only problem with the doctrine that is large enough to present a serious concern. And that problem is getting a raiding force through a primary relay, something the rachni repeatedly tried and failed to do against us. Granted, maybe we can do better, but it is a concern that should not be dismissed.

I do feel it is relevant here to consider that the Rachni do not themselves have a Raiding Doctrine, and relatedly, as this is an obvious problem one would expect a major focus of the doctrine to be finding ways to solve it. Not that it's not still a consideration - it is - but this makes the "we can do better than the Rachni" argument more plausible than it might seem at first blush.
 
Okay, I ordinarily do not participate in these discussions, because I do not enjoy prejudicing the votes. However, I am noticing the question of, "Is slipping raiding fleets through relays viable, and if so, how?" being kicked around an awful lot. Now, Beshkar is aware of that, and his proposed doctrine addresses the matter. I've said as much.

That said, I am aware that there are many people who would feel more secure (or at minimum, less uncertain) regarding the viability of raiding doctrine if they knew what exactly the innovation of raiding doctrine is that makes slipping raiders through the lines non-suicidal.

On the other hand, I retain a certain degree of reticence when engaging in voting debates when the impact is so potentially large (even though this is technically information Mira would have available to her IC). So before just laying it out, I'm hitting you all up for a quick opinion poll (don't make a [ ]-style vote, it'll wipe your actual vote).

Do you want to know what the innovation is?

EDIT: You can also just give this post a, "funny," rating to indicate that the answer is yes. If I get more than ten I'll post the explanation.
 
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Do you want to know what the innovation is?

Since I want raiding I'll guess: since part of using a mass relay is inputting your mass, intentially fudge the number to control (roughly) how far off the relay you appear. Have the distraction input correct numbers, be showy and while that is happening frigates that mass 1 million tons (joking) fly through and get kicked a couple hundred thousand k off target. Then they just go run in any direction til they can engage ftl and then meet up at a predetermined point.
 
Raiding Doctrine
Right: the tl;dr is that the nature of Rachni holdings means that they can't really sustain keeping their entire navy on constant, active status guarding relays if they want to do anything else. This presents a vulnerability for you in bashing open a relay for long enough to slip raiding forces past the initial defensive line without having to actually face their full, on-paper strength. Once on the secondary network, raiders can basically keep jumping until they find a target they like. Getting fleets back is the tricky part, but less so than you'd think. You win even if you burn nothing but the Rachni are forced to mobilize the forces it would take to actually stop you, given the cost involved. There exist ways to counter this doctrine, but given that trans-relay commerce and logistics raiding has never been a thing, those tactics don't exist, giving you the breathing room to keep ahead of innovations with your own ideas. I do not give options that don't work due to the way the setting runs.

The long version:

The most obvious barrier to a viable raiding doctrine is relay defense. Any opponent with a brain will post defense forces to relays, and raiding forces are not built with pitched battle in mind -- quite the opposite, in fact. Conventional wisdom states that no force can advance beyond the relay without securing it -- after all, to do so would leave a hostile force at their back. Utter madness. The proof of this is in your own experiences over the course of your first term -- the Rachni never did opt to circumvent your forces at the relay. They could not; even Rachni do not throw away ships for nothing.

The brainwave Beshkar had was rooted in what happened in the Battle of Hercules. Namely, even when the Rachni were preparing for an imminent assault, even when sending a truly formidable reconnaissance-in-force, even when tensions were the highest they had ever been...

...a huge portion of their fleet was still in dock, well away from the relay.

This doesn't appear to make sense. Virmire can keep its fleets fully mobilized at the relay at all times. Why would the Rachni not, particularly when tension was so high and conflict was so obviously imminent?

The answer to that is a little less immediately apparent, but it's obvious in hindsight. It is true that the Rachni control massive swathes of the galaxy. However, they have not penetrated any of the Citadel's core space; the territory they have taken is colonial space, nearly bare of heavy industry. Whatever they have, they will need to have constructed themselves while paying the immense costs of an attrition-based naval doctrine against the entire galaxy. Given the state of Hercules -- scans of Eletania, a near-garden world if it weren't for the allergen issue, about which Rachni would not care, indicate precious little extensive development -- it is clear that they have not been able to build much.

From this, Beshkar concludes that while the Rachni may or may not run extraction operations within their controlled space, the bulk of their production centers are back in their home systems. Thus, basically the entire rest of their space is composed of supply line.

This is significant. Virmire can field its fleets on permanent active status because it does so within a thirty minute jog of a heavily-industrialized garden world. If a ship is damaged or needs refuel and maintenance, it can turn around and fly home, and be back in the fight soonest. Even just moving to Hercules, establishing local ship basing has already proven to be valuable -- relay travel is not stressless, and damaged vessels are much better served by local shipyards than further sharp jolts before a safe berth. The Rachni, however, must be shipping parts across multiple jumps and thousands of light years. Doing so is not trivial even with relays. Supply ships break down and burn fuel, and accidents happen to shipments. With the supply line so much less robust, then, it is simple, financial sense to keep ships in dock rather than incurring the cost of keeping all of them ready to fight on a moment's notice.

Therefore, when Virmire's regular fleets jump through a relay to clear a path for raiding forces, they will face a far more limited array of forces than the Rachni's on-paper strength would suggest. The key to Beshkarian Doctrine is in exploiting this vulnerability. If Virmirean forces were interested in securing a system, they would need to face the entire strength of the enemy fleet one way or the other. Under the raiding doctrine, they are not so interested. They are interested in sweeping aside the tripwire forces at the relay, calling through the raiding fleet, and then firing salvos at local ship basing and planets, forcing hostiles to screen with their own ships for hours or days as the rounds crawl through space. Meanwhile, the raiders jump to the relay they wish to use and then flash away, behind the main defenses and able to run roughshod over rear echelon garrisons. Once your raiders are on the secondary relay network, they can just keep jumping until they find a juicy and vulnerable target.

You may ask: how do we get these forces back? Well, that's a matter of careful scheduling; the raiders get a timetable of [insert duration here] to return to the same system, whereupon your forces launch an assault to make room. This is the difficult part, but with the raiding forces coming in from the flanks, you actually have a decent position.

Raiding doctrine has two objectives, either one of which constitutes a successful campaign. The first is to wreck strategically-significant amounts of hostile infrastructure, limiting their ability to resupply their forces away from their industrial heartlands and enabling conventional offensives of your own. This is the ideal. However, an acceptable secondary outcome is to force the enemy to deploy massive fleet elements all throughout their space in an effort to flush out or contain your raiders. Ordinarily, this would be relatively simple for the Rachni; a strong cruiser force should be able to hunt down any raiding fleet in relative security, in conjunction with defense platforms. However, you have battlecruisers. In order to address battlecruisers, the Rachni need to position massive fleets of cruisers or outright dreadnoughts in good response positions on active status. Neither of these is a cheap option. Neither of these is a reliable option. Either results in the Rachni's ability to initiate offensives against you being critically hampered as much of their strength is tied up elsewhere, consuming oceans of supplies to keep running as they police their own space.

Now, I don't need to tell you that there exist tactics to counter this doctrine. However, the Rachni don't have these tactics. They will begin developing them once or if they encounter a need -- and there has never been a need for trans-relay counter-raiding tactics before. Only in contested clusters does commerce and logistics raiding occur. You will have a relatively significant period of time while the Rachni reconfigure parts (but not all) of their massive war machine to counter your brand-new innovation. By that time, you will hopefully be taking options to innovate your doctrine yourself (or your High Admiralty will be making good passive rolls to institute doctrinal reforms), countering their counters.

Raiding doctrine has obvious weaknesses. If it's unsuccessful, it leaves you facing down a pissed-off enemy with forces that pack a bigger punch in a fleet battle. There is the potential, if disaster strikes, to lose whole fleets in enemy territory and never know until you launch a futile assault to cover a retreat that will never happen. Other doctrines have their own weaknesses that can spell disaster.

However, you may rest assured that the weaknesses of a given doctrine -- and raiding doctrine in particular -- do not rest in its soundness as a concept. For heaven's sake, do you really think I'm going to feed you options that can't hope to achieve what they set out to do? I am Lawful Evil! If nothing else -- if you pick the worst possible doctrine, one which will critically fail to address your strategic situation -- it will at least be able to do the thing that's in its name, and not be hamstrung by the very premises of the setting. By enemy action, possibly. But not because I'm giving you a blatantly unsound option.
 
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Lets Raid. it Kills Bugs Dead.

oooh this is gonna be great! lets do it!
 
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I had been wondering why, unlike us, the Rachni had to keep the bulk of their local fleet in the port. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
The answer to that is a little less immediately apparent, but it's obvious in hindsight. It is true that the Rachni control massive swathes of the galaxy. However, they have not penetrated any of the Citadel's core space; the territory they have taken is colonial space, nearly bare of heavy industry. Whatever they have, they will need to have constructed themselves while paying the immense costs of an attrition-based naval doctrine against the entire galaxy. Given the state of Hercules -- scans of Eletania, a near-garden world if it weren't for the allergen issue, about which Rachni would not care, indicate precious little extensive development -- it is clear that they have not been able to build much.

Interesting.

If we are in contact with the Citadel before beginning raiding they should be able to take advantage of our raids. With cut supply lines, the fleets of the Rachni border will be very vulnerable. However due to the Council's current lack of knowledge, they are unlikely to be able to seize the moment before Rachni reconfigure their war machine.


I advocate that we establish contact with the Citadel first, before the Beshkarian Doctrine. Which ever vote wins, our priority should be re-contact, then full scale prosecution of the war.
 
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.
 
Interesting.

If we are in contact with the Citadel before beginning raiding they should be able to take advantage of our raids. With cut supply lines, the fleets of the Rachni border will be very vulnerable. However due to the Council's current lack of knowledge, they are unlikely to be able to seize the moment before Rachni reconfigure their war machine.


I advocate that we establish contact with the Citadel first, before the Beshkarian Doctrine. Which ever vote wins, our priority should be re-contact, then full scale prosecution of the war.
It would probably take a military action (with its assoiated costs and probability of failure) to switch doctrines. I'm not sure it would be worthwhile to spend a couple of turns on one doctrine, just to throw it all away for another. Better to choose now and stick with it.
 
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.

While I think I would prefer using large fleets defensively, if we are going to be using many fleets I am all for using the raiding doctrine.
 
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.

Basically classix asymmetrical warfare where we win by making them too distracted to do anything eh? Space vietcong?
 
It would probably take a military action (with its assoiated costs and probability of failure) to switch doctrines. I'm not sure it would be worthwhile to spend a couple of turns on one doctrine, just to throw it all away for another. Better to choose now and stick with it.

Well technically it could be a good idea to say get raiding doctrine to fuck up their fleet and try and get in contact with citadel and once we have a corridor and clear a considerable part of their space assets in say anywhere around five to seven clusters (corridor to batarian space and us,and a corridor to their homeworld cluster, then dumping raiding doctrine would be worth for Ground Support doctrine as we would have around five clusters of colonial bug planets we can try further development as dry runs for rachni home world operation after we do our level best at Exterminatus imitation (as we know it won't work on its own from ME history and starship troopers)

Plus having those two developed would make for the perfect start towards a hybrid offensive warlord doctrine, that attempts to do the most damage possible to the enemy. Think something like space borne deep battle doctrine, if the two were combined in a hybrid...
 
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While I still anticipate the raiding fleets to encounter their biggest, riskiest problems in relay transits, I do recognize that a sane person can expect this to work.

And to be fair, the rachni are a lot more spread out and overstretched than the enemies that the guerre de course historically failed against.
 
Well, that's a big piece of information I've just dropped on you all, so for the nonce I'm going to slap a threadmark on that for anyone who's asleep and extend voting in case this changes people's minds. Apologies for the delay, folks.
 
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