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You cant make steel without iron, which is what I am getting at. Eezo is just a material, a very special and valuable material with immensely useful properties but in the Mass Effect universe is every bit as natural a material as the rest of the Mass Effect periodic table.

When people talk about making no-eezo scifi tech in Mass Effect, they themselves think they are talking about getting out of the "Eezo Trap" that bad ME fanon likes to harp about but what they are actually talking about is pointing at one of the most incredibly useful naturally occurring materials in the ME universe and saying they just want to completely ignore using it either because they blame it for Mass Effect being a classic Space Opera setting(with slow, gradual improvement of scifi technology) and not a Singularity setting(with A.I. super gods everywhere and bullshit clarktech) or out of some stupid power fantasy because technology not based on eezo must be "naturally" superior to eezo using tech(when probably it would just be massively inefficient considering how easy it is to get even a little eezo to be useful) and let them lord their superiority over the Citadel Council.

After reading though more iterations of that type of garbage then I can count, it's little wonder my tolerance for that type of crap has completely withered.
Again, never said we shouldn't use, or outringht ignore it.
Also, not all of that is baseless. We know there are workarounds. If something is specifically build, to shield from kinetic attacks. An attack that doesn't use kinetic force, will go trough.
 
So, let's explicitly quote the Learning Victory conditions:
A Learning Victory is achieved by mastering indoctrination-free Reaper-level eezo tech or making practical and competitive a completely different tech tree. Both of these options are of comparable difficulty. By technicality of having indoctrination, the Reapers have not achieved this type of victory, but in spirit we all know very well that they have.

So the first one sounds like, essentially, achieving technology that is similar to but exceeds Prothean tech (which seems/seemed to be indoctrinaton/Reaper-free), and likely allows for much higher FTL speeds, among other things.

The second is just "a completely different tech tree". There's nothing in Mass Effect's universe that means there's literally no way to have any other tech except Eezo tech. I mean, Lasers are a thing in-universe already, it's not silly to suggest they could be improved (the Salarians and Geth both made improvements). The Arc Projector is an energy weapon. As some have said, an Alcuberrie-drive-like system could provide FTL. And so on.

I personally don't want a techno-wank-fest, but I am intrigued by doing something other than "slightly nicer than canon systems".
 
So, let's explicitly quote the Learning Victory conditions:


So the first one sounds like, essentially, achieving technology that is similar to but exceeds Prothean tech (which seems/seemed to be indoctrinaton/Reaper-free), and likely allows for much higher FTL speeds, among other things.

The second is just "a completely different tech tree". There's nothing in Mass Effect's universe that means there's literally no way to have any other tech except Eezo tech. I mean, Lasers are a thing in-universe already, it's not silly to suggest they could be improved (the Salarians and Geth both made improvements). The Arc Projector is an energy weapon. As some have said, an Alcuberrie-drive-like system could provide FTL. And so on.

I personally don't want a techno-wank-fest, but I am intrigued by doing something other than "slightly nicer than canon systems".
Alcuberrie-drive actually exists and needs eezo to work.

Kett starships use FTL drives with a radically unique design. When traveling across smaller regions, such as a star cluster, these drives function almost identically to Milky Way drives, but over longer distances, they function like Alcubierre drives. This is similar to having an on-board Mass Relay, but compared to actual Mass Relays, kett drives are both slower and extremely inefficient. Traveling between clusters is still arduous enough that the kett rely on their own ark ships and stasis tech for such voyages.
They are faster then conventional ftl drives(but probably less precise and maneuverable) when going long distance, but slower and less efficient then using a Mass Relay, probably because the ship must propel itself rather then getting instantly transported to its destination.
 
Ok no, that doesn't make any fucking sense! In Mass Effect there is no alternative to eezo! It's the only way to get things like artificial gravity and ftl. Hell it's even used in Andromeda, no Reaper shenanigans required. Eezo is not a trap, it's a very useful material with almost countless possible uses(including ones that in Mass Effect cant be done without it), that's in relative abundance when there's a working galactic economy(eezo is not a fuel, it doesn't get used up so between mining new eezo and recycling old eezo there is plenty available). Saying we shouldn't use it and that we need to find an alternative is like saying we shouldn't use iron and that we need to find an alternative to using iron because reasons.
Correction: Eezo is practical and simple to exploit in Mass Effect, but that does not mean that alternatives do not exist. Particularly not in this quest, wherein I have explicitly noted that an ending condition is the practical utilization of an alternative technology path. The reason why you might want to follow alternatives, if Eezo is so practical, is because the Eezo Learning victory requires you to completely master Eezo as a scientific concept -- no simple task at all.
 
I still don't see the point of repurposing when we could've expended

Was it the cost ??
 
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I still don't see the point of repurposing when we could've expended

Was it the cost ??
we payed half as much (20,000 less) to do it in return for an extra upkeep of 500 a year. that is the easiest choice in the world.

the downside is that after the rachni are dealt with, we are probably going to have to either revert control to the original owners or pay them off.
 
I think we repurposed this time to give us a quick "surge" of shipbuilding capacity, which is represented by us having a net gain on shipbuilding for the time being.
 
I think we repurposed this time to give us a quick "surge" of shipbuilding capacity, which is represented by us having a net gain on shipbuilding for the time being.
Woulda gotten that with Expanding as well. Just a question of means. This way you take a slight income hit and have to deal with civilians asking after those factories once/if the crisis passes, in exchange for half price.
 
Personally, I figure that once we've gotten an actual action-neutral positive cash flow going, we're going to see continuous shipyard expansions, but what this does now is actually start recouping destroyed ships (and replacing losses that have been lost for years at this point) without breaking the piggy bank for the upcoming turn... Like taking the full expansion a second time would have. This is good because we need more ships if we're to break out within ten years of the quest start... or just if we want to safely detach a force or two of corvettes...

The income loss is unfortunate, but not as much as being required to take an instant cash option in the next turn would be... It's still advisable to do so, but now we can actually pick what type of action we want, rather than going to the biggest influx of credits, and only that.
 
However, if enough research is performed it may be possible to greatly increase the efficiency of a laser, making then competitive with Mass Drivers.
Lasers have inherent flaw - the laser ray actually expands with distance. The expansion angle is very small, like 1-2 angle minute, but on 50+ km distance it is already meaningful. This flaw is inborn and cannot be dealt with due to wave nature of light.
 
Lasers have inherent flaw - the laser ray actually expands with distance. The expansion angle is very small, like 1-2 angle minute, but on 50+ km distance it is already meaningful. This flaw is inborn and cannot be dealt with due to wave nature of light.

I think it depends upon the wavelength of the light used and the size of the lens - so a high wavelength laser or a laser with a large lens would have a longer range.

According to Atomic Rockets, the equation for laser diffraction is:

RT​ = 0.61 * D * L / RL​
where:
  • RT​ = beam radius at target (m)
  • D = distance from laser emitter to target (m)
  • L = wavelength of laser beam (m, see table below)
  • RL​ = radius of laser lens or reflector (m)
 
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I think it depends upon the wavelength of the light used - so a high wavelength laser would have a longer range.
The problem is, currently known methods are practical only up to low UV light. There are works on free-electron lasers, that can produce X-ray and potentially even gamma-ray, but they need a lot of space. On the other hand, they might be easier to scale up.
However, the problem of smaller wavelength is optics for such wavelengths, which is inherently inefficient, large and heavy.

Large optics is also a big 'nope'. It COSTS. Like, really a lot. Making a glass 2+ m size with precision of 0.1 mimcrometr and make it maintain this precision, ignoring thermal and gravitational deformations? It cannot be cheap, and it takes a lot to make.
 
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The problem is, currently known methods are practical only up to low UV light. There are works on free-electron lasers, that can produce X-ray and potentially even gamma-ray, but they need a lot of space. On the other hand, they might be easier to scale up.
However, the problem of smaller wavelength is optics for such wavelengths, which is inherently inefficient, large and heavy.

Large optics is also a big 'nope'. It COSTS. Like, really a lot. Making a glass 2+ m size with precision of 0.1 mimcrometr and make it maintain this precision, ignoring thermal and gravitational deformations? It cannot be cheap, and it takes a lot to make.

Well, I'm sure that with enough research we could make the optics efficient enough to work.
 
Well, I'm sure that with enough research we could make the optics efficient enough to work.
well development is pretty much "make it smaller but also better", compare early computers and modern ones and the difference in power and size becomes obvious, and this is a civilization that is far more advanced than ours, they probably already have more efficient and smaller optics than we could create in the next decade, so saying we can't do something because of modern limitations is kind of silly if you think about it.
 
The problem is, currently known methods are practical only up to low UV light. There are works on free-electron lasers, that can produce X-ray and potentially even gamma-ray, but they need a lot of space. On the other hand, they might be easier to scale up.
However, the problem of smaller wavelength is optics for such wavelengths, which is inherently inefficient, large and heavy.

Large optics is also a big 'nope'. It COSTS. Like, really a lot. Making a glass 2+ m size with precision of 0.1 mimcrometr and make it maintain this precision, ignoring thermal and gravitational deformations? It cannot be cheap, and it takes a lot to make.
If I understood Poptart correctly, then what we need is to study both molecular furnaces (yes, yes, using e zero) and geode creation. Between that, and learning how to dope silicon compounds with metals, or heat resistant alloys, use a molecular furnace to guide a geode growth to produce heat resistant lenses of fairly large diameters. Yes, I'm sure I'm making it sound simpler than it is, I'm just offering bare bone ideas. I stopped delving into heavy sciences when I was told I wasn't good enough; so I don't know all the fiddly bits involved.
 
Well, I'm sure that with enough research we could make the optics efficient enough to work.
With bullshit science only. The problem is fundamental: x-ray optics is built based on entirely different principles compared to normal optics, as X-ray refraction is not a thing.

an X-ray lens.
The ray goes by the long axis of the needle. Yeah. Doesn't look much like a lens.

heat resistant lenses of fairly large diameters.
The problem is not only heat resistance, but also heat and weigth deformation. It is much harder to deal with. And we should probably use mirrors instead of lenses: lenses have inborn flaw of light adsorption and light reflection on lens surfaces.
 
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With bullshit science only. The problem is fundamental: x-ray optics is built based on entirely different principles compared to normal optics, as X-ray refraction is not a thing.


The problem is not only heat resistance, but also heat and weigth deformation. It is much harder to deal with. And we should probably use mirrors instead of lenses: lenses have inborn flaw of light adsorption and light reflection on lens surfaces.

Actually, I just realized that you could use a Mass Effect field to create a gravitational lens which could focus x-rays or gamma rays! The x-rays themselves could be produced using some sort of antimatter-catalysed microfission or fusion, and gamma rays could be produced with antimatter annihilation.
 
Just re-read the 'learning' segment of last turn. Once we get to a stable point of finance/infrastructure, we may want to see about setting up a committee (as a 'learning' action) to collate operations and maintenance manuals (or layman variants) for known operational medical gear, and then info-net post them to some home 'web' site. Biggest reason, you never know when you won't have a doctor nearby, or just which medical equipment you'll end up with out on the fringe, or what condition said equipment will be in. Yeah, not a big thing, won't do much more than allow the desperate to understand how to help themselves if they know where to find the site. Of course, there would be some that might use it to sabotage said machines, but really, if you've left such equipment, not running, and/or unattended for anything longer than an hour (comparative) you should be checking to see that it's not done something it shouldn't have, especially if you'd turned it off before you left. It's just good sense to make sure your healthcare means is working properly, and saying such on the site would likely avoid a bunch of attempts at lawsuits when sabotaged machines start showing up.

And really, it's a bit of a debate of to be, or not to be (informed); but on the whole, it'll drastically improve survival chances for a lot of frontier efforts. And if we ever regain contact with the outside, we could probably swing a sponsership deal to put up simple instructions on a dedicate site for all major, and some smaller but still important medical equipment production companies.

Something to think on for the future, and really nothing to do with a "Learning Victory"... maybe a "Finance Victory", unlikely; or even a "Stewardship Victory", also unlikely.
 
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