Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

[lbmaian]

There's no factory/lab retooling time as it is, and upkeep has been reduced to meaningless anyway. Research as I said is at the maximum unless I go and redo the entire system. But I was told that people didn't want me to so... whatever.

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Hmm, while I can see why you don't want to completely redo the system, the current research system is now:
a) prone to completely starving out lower priority tech
b) now unrealistic for such a large R&D firm that PI is at its heart - there's only so much you can realistically throw at a single problem to speed up its solution

So, I have a small proposal:

Cap the max RP spent on any single tech research per quarter. Perhaps include the option of allowing spending over max RP per single tech but at half RP efficiency.

Pros: solves above problems, doesn't require revamping tech tree or tech costs
Cons: delays "critical techs" in the views of some quest participants, and will require revamping research timelines

Brain shield + Improved brain shield. Prevents Indoctrination, which is the biggest threat remaining to Revy on a personal level.

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So we obviously have outside context info that the Reapers are coming. But what's the Watsonian reason for Revy and PI to start researching brain shields?

If it would protect against mind-melding, I bet the Asari will complain that we (humanity) are being paranoid.

...actually on second thought, this might be a kludge solution to the Ardat-Yakshi problem. If it does, than the Asari might actually be thankful after the fact.

Also there is a reason why medium and large shipyards exist, beside being more compact:

Most ships are too big for Factor IIIs barring special conditions, so that's what Space factories are for. I may rule that you need at least one shipyard of the right size for each larger ship assembled, though other factories can still help. That would be due to the need for a large enough assembly site. Planetary sites have a three factory limit with space having its own limits. And big factories have to be built in space.

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At a guess I'd say Small Shipyards cover Frigate sized stuff and down (<250m), Medium Shipyards cover Cruiser sized stuff (>250m but <800m) and Large Shipyards cover Dreadnought sized stuff (>800m)

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That terrestrial shipyard size restriction doesn't make strict sense to me.

The main size limitations on planets that I foresee are:
a) whether the ship being constructed can be launched & constructed at X atmospheric density
b) whether the ship being constructed can be constructed at Y gravity

So while building dreadnoughts on Earth may be impossible because of its atmosphere and maybe its gravity, I don't see why they couldn't be built on, say the Moon, or if that still has too much gravity, Deimos.

TIR renders are ship blind. It completely blocks all EM which means it's impossible to detect what's going on outside the ship except for drones transmitting via QECs and gravity wave sensors.

Also advanced lasers, or more specifically long range lasers, are very useful for alpha-strikes against predictable targets, like shipyards and space stations. Since no one has FTL sensors you can drop into the system a few light seconds/minutes out, fire at the targets, and jump back out before anyone knows you're there.

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Yeah I know that useful TIR requires QEC at a minimum. Gravity wave sensors are optional if you don't care about stealth and are fine with an expendable flock of drones with QEC.

That's why I said lasers are short-term option that will last for the Batarian war. Unless I'm mis-estimating, the war should take a couple years, and by that time, we should have QEC and gravity wave sensor tech.

I'm also expecting that QEC drone tech will eventually be widespread throughout the galaxy, which should mitigate speed-of-light alpha strikes via effectively FTL sensors.

 

[UberJJK]

Not really. The sort of laser strength you need even at a single light second is ludicrous., since you'd be hitting areas of space hundreds of kilometers across. Even a gigaWatt laser won't exactly do much at that level of dispersion.

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Eh. At ten light seconds with a 100GW X-ray laser you're beam is only 37mm across an delivers ~949MJ per cm^2.

Hmm, while I can see why you don't want to completely redo the system, the current research system is now:
a) prone to completely starving out lower priority tech
b) now unrealistic for such a large R&D firm that PI is at its heart - there's only so much you can realistically throw at a single problem to speed up its solution

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A is an intended feature. The whole point of limiting resources, like RP, is to force people to be careful what they pick. So of course high impact techs are chosen over "fun" things.

B is already dealt with more or less. Every off planet lab results in a tiny amount of RP. Elysium generates only 111RP to the nearly 2,000RP of Mindoir. The justification, besides being a gameplay thing, is that Revy is what drives the innovation at PI and she can only spread her genius insights among those she directly works with, IE the researchers on Mindoir.

That's why I said lasers are short-term option that will last for the Batarian war. Unless I'm mis-estimating, the war should take a couple years, and by the time, we should have QEC and gravity wave sensor tech.

I'm also expecting that QEC drone tech will eventually be widespread throughout the galaxy, which should mitigate speed-of-light alpha strikes via effectively FTL sensors.

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You do know that just because we have TIR doesn't mean everyone else has it right? Sure it would be a high priority product once people learn about it but they don't have Revy driving their R&D so they'll need years of research to replicate it.

 

[Darkcrest]

eh the simstims could be the watsonian reason for brain shields being fast tracked

 

[SonOfNenji]

Can we get some kind of bonus for signing up for assistance with government projects?

For example, can we get RP progress towards Space Stations by joining the design team for the one being built near Mindoir, or is it too late and unfeasible regardless?

I'm just thinking I don't want to have to compete with that space station later when we decide to make one that's of pure PI make, and unless it's capable of moving systems like a mobile base we're kind of stuck with it when they build it.

I don't want to cause its decommission when we make something significantly better in the following year(s), so I just want to get my foot in the door now when it's still in the planning stages.

Edit:

The justification, besides being a gameplay thing, is that Revy is what drives the innovation at PI and she can only spread her genius insights among those she directly works with, IE the researchers on Mindoir.

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Can't this penalty be lowered considering things like ANI, virtual reality and later even QEC comms exist? The issue of distance becomes less and less with each new relevant technology we create. Implying that either Revy helps or she doesn't can't make sense unless she has no contact at all with teams outside of Mindoir, which also doesn't make sense.

I think the penalties need to come in stages with relevant reasons for each or they feel arbitrary.

 

[Angelform]

If your opponent can turn off your Relays, there would not be a war in the first place.
They'd just shut everything down and mop up at their leisure.

Even the Reapers need the Citadel to do that IIRC.

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So your argument is that because noone managed to do it in canon we shouldn't worry about it happening in this quest? You really think it will be that much of a walk over?

Regardless, the fundamental point stands. Putting too much production in one place is asking for someone to come along and snipe it, whatever method is used.

TIR renders are ship blind. It completely blocks all EM which means it's impossible to detect what's going on outside the ship except for drones transmitting via QECs and gravity wave sensors.

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Any particular reason you need to use TIR over the entire ship all at once? A few tiny gaps would largely negate the problem. At the very least it would let you use non-QEC drones as spotters.

 

[Carrnage]

So your argument is that because noone managed to do it in canon we shouldn't worry about it happening in this quest? You really think it will be that much of a walk over?

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It was explicit in canon that they need to capture the citadel to turn off the relays. As in it was the entire plot Of the first game.

 

[UberJJK]

Any particular reason you need to use TIR over the entire ship all at once? A few tiny gaps would largely negate the problem. At the very least it would let you use non-QEC drones as spotters.

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You'd have to ask @Yog to be sure but as I understand it TIR is a bubble. So you can't have patches open. You also can't have stuff extending through the bubble because, again IIRC, the boundary will shred anything that goes through it.

 

[Fehu]

@Hoyr how was your verdict on buildig relays? production wise and RP wise. How much is already figured out?

I might even atempt my hand at a few omakes with matriarch aethyta and Shepard...

 

[AvidFicReader]

Regarding shutting down relays, I believe it is possible, but for anyone without Reaper IFF, they would have to physical hook into the relay computer systems over a long period of time, several hours to a day. That is impractical in combat, not to mention achieving breakthrough on a relay assault.

As for the Citadel, it has the master switch for the entirety of the relay network. Once the Vanguard triggered the Citadel relay, it would shut down the whole relay network simultaneously, killing a civilization's near-instantaneous ftl travel and communication ability. As shown with Omega-4, Reaper IFF provides superior transit privileges, so it wouldn't surprise me if relays could be restricted to "admin only" access.

 

[Anti-No]

Personally I would not be sad if humanity started watching the relays with distrust, and began looking into alternatives while getting ready to pull the relays away from critical systems, physically.

 

[Angelform]

It was explicit in canon that they need to capture the citadel to turn off the relays. As in it was the entire plot Of the first game.

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And? We can already do plenty of stuff that was impossible in canon.

 

[Carrnage]

And? We can already do plenty of stuff that was impossible in canon.

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name 1 that isnt logically derived from the premise of the quest.

 

[Deathwings]

But to be fair, we the players are the only ones who knows this information
Revy does not know that the Reapers even exist
She definitely suspicious about who that person was but "reaper" will not be what she thinks
but we will definitely more powerful weapons

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The whole Reaper thing doesn't even really matter tough. Revy saw first hand a battle-suit equipped with laser weaponry strong enough to slice and dice her Legionaire with ease. She acknowledge it in the narrative and is fully aware that the only reason said weapons weren't used on her is because whoever was piloting that suit wanted her alive. For now.

So, basically, not upgrading our suit tech is the equivalent on relying on the fact that our enemies aren't enthusiastic about killing us. Great plan there. There's absolutely no way we'll make ourselves into such a pain in the ass for them that they'll just shoot us out of convenience or anything, right ?

 

[Angelform]

name 1 that isnt logically derived from the premise of the quest.

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And now you are trying to argue that hacking a Relay isn't a logical derivation of introducing super-genius tech.

Pretty much everything in ME can be hacked, from door to shields to mechs. Why not Relays?

 

[Carrnage]

And now you are trying to argue that hacking a Relay isn't a logical derivation of introducing super-genius tech.

Pretty much everything in ME can be hacked, from door to shields to mechs. Why not Relays?

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Because non matching interfaces.

 

[TheEyes]

Have you looked at theeyes earthfall project
One of the main reasons why there are plans to build so many factories on earth is to eventually make a planet wide shield

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Well, not really. The main reason for Project Earthfall is it gives us the equivalent of three Large Shipyards' worth of Production in 3 quarters rather than 6, which is especially important right now when we're at the beginning of our exponential upgrade cycle.

"Atom" class construction material substitution drone.

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Need to think about this a bit more.

So we obviously have outside context info that the Reapers are coming. But what's the Watsonian reason for Revy and PI to start researching brain shields?

If it would protect against mind-melding, I bet the Asari will complain that we (humanity) is being paranoid.

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The Watsonian reason comes from that time an invader hijacked our ANI and pulled us into a virtual chatroom against our will. Yes, it was only for a few seconds, but it proved the concept.

So, basically, not upgrading our suit tech is the equivalent on relying on the fact that our enemies aren't enthusiastic about killing us. Great plan there. There's absolutely no way we'll make ourselves into such a pain in the ass for them that they'll just shoot us out of convenience or anything, right ?

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If we had picked the Mark II suit over any of our other techs we wouldn't have had the Pynda ready on time, the Batarian fleet would have destroyed everything on the planet, and we would have been overwhelmed and destroyed even with the Mark II. The Mark II just isn't a huge priority in the face of space and drone warfare.

 

[UberJJK]

Pretty much everything in ME can be hacked, from door to shields to mechs. Why not Relays?

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Just like to remind people that we have (some) backdoor codes into the relays already:

[ ] Relay Codes (100): Turns out some of the stuff Liara got at her first dig were mass Relay codes of some sort. You'll need a ship and a Relay to test them though. Hopefully they're not the self-destruct codes. (Restricted until you have permission to screw around with a Relay)

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we just don't know what they do yet.

We should probably look into getting the Alliance to approve us messing with a unused relay, like the one that leads to a neutron star, soon. Luckily for us our contributions to the war effort should help here.

 

[Tabron89]

Not really. The sort of laser strength you need even at a single light second is ludicrous., since you'd be hitting areas of space hundreds of kilometers across. Even a gigaWatt laser won't exactly do much at that level of dispersion.

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...You need a 10 megajoule X-ray laser to vapourise graphite at 1 light minute range.

Sure, you would be only boiling off a few millimeters, but there are other aspects to it.

Lasers in outer space don't suffer from scattering, they suffer from diffusion.

 

[Hazard]

@UberJJK, @Tabron89

Xray lasers are not yet employed by anyone and have some major lensing constraints, UV is the highest level currently in use, does not have as good performance as ours and has major heat constraints for endurance. We also have Advanced Materials, so while a super reflective coating to deal with high energy lasers won't be cheap it should be possible to create it and turn lasers into a minor problem.

 

[TheEyes]

@UberJJK, @Tabron89

Xray lasers are not yet employed by anyone and have some major lensing constraints, UV is the highest level currently in use, does not have as good performance as ours and has major heat constraints for endurance. We also have Advanced Materials, so while a super reflective coating to deal with high energy lasers won't be cheap it should be possible to create it and turn lasers into a minor problem.

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There is actually a specific tech series for UV laser weapons, then X-ray lasers, then gamma ray lasers. We probably want to pick up UV lasers this quarter, actually: the 4-10x range boost will ensure that our Pyndas can reliably destroy any current-gen starship they come across.

 

[tri2]

There is actually a specific tech series for UV laser weapons, then X-ray lasers, then gamma ray lasers. We probably want to pick up UV lasers this quarter, actually: the 4-10x range boost will ensure that our Pyndas can reliably destroy any current-gen starship they come across.

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......get a dozen of them together can we pull off raiding supply lines and sinking defense fleets at long range?

 

[MTB]

@UberJJK, @Tabron89

Xray lasers are not yet employed by anyone and have some major lensing constraints, UV is the highest level currently in use, does not have as good performance as ours and has major heat constraints for endurance. We also have Advanced Materials, so while a super reflective coating to deal with high energy lasers won't be cheap it should be possible to create it and turn lasers into a minor problem.

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Didn't we discuss a few posts ago to ME shields for a total reflection effect? If I didn't get that totally wrong, we'd use a variant of that for lensing. I mean, as long as we mix real world science with magic we can go full bore ...

 

[lbmaian]

You do know that just because we have TIR doesn't mean everyone else has it right? Sure it would be a high priority product once people learn about it but they don't have Revy driving their R&D so they'll need years of research to replicate it.

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That sounds awfully...optimistic.

We may have supposedly unbreakable tech blackboxing and encryption, but there are still risks from physical theft, social engineering, Council/SA politics, etc. We can do our best to prevent these, but something is bound to leak over the years. I may be understating the timeline, but I won't be surprised if a substantial portion of our tech is widespread and not completely under our control by the time the Reapers invade.

And while we have magical Revy, we shouldn't underestimate the research capabilities of whole civilizations. Especially when a fire is lit under them from PI's galaxy-changing tech, and they have existing tech samples to study for inspiration (even if they can't break the blackboxing).

Well, of course it's up to the GM on whether and how fast other nations and megacorps can play catch up with our tech. At the very least our earlier less protected tech will be reverse-engineered, and canon tech like QEC should eventually be discovered independently.

Also, as others point out, TIR shielding is just the final nail in the coffin for lasers (unless there are ways to disrupt that shielding). They are other countermeasures potentially available to other races that can mitigate the effectiveness of lasers.

A is an intended feature. The whole point of limiting resources, like RP, is to force people to be careful what they pick. So of course high impact techs are chosen over "fun" things.

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You can have a tech research system that forces prioritization AND avoid over-specialization every quarter. There's no reason it has to be all or nothing.

If anything, capping RP per tech will force us to be prepared for what used to be considered minor risks, because we'd no longer be able to reactively respond to a sudden situation change within a couple quarters by pouring 100% RP into something that's critically needed.

For example, continuing with the laser discussion: Suppose the nebulous backers behind the Batarians come up with plasma shielding. It's a non-ME technology that's theoretically viable IRL that can refract EM radiation (and suffers the same blindness problem of TIR, but that can be worked around) with sufficient power (hello arc reactors!). Suddenly, combat efficiency of laser weapons is dropping quarter after quarter.

In the current system, we'd immediately switch to researching neutrally charged particle beams or better mass accelerators, and upgrade our ships within a few quarters.

In the proposed system with tech research caps, it may take twice as long to research alternatives to sufficient capability, and we'll have to suffer the consequences of our over-specialization on lasers for a much longer time.

Whether you consider that a good game mechanic or not, it doesn't change the fact that we still have to prioritize carefully, if not more so.

B is already dealt with more or less. Every off planet lab results in a tiny amount of RP. Elysium generates only 111RP to the nearly 2,000RP of Mindoir. The justification, besides being a gameplay thing, is that Revy is what drives the innovation at PI and she can only spread her genius insights among those she directly works with, IE the researchers on Mindoir.

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Ignoring how contrived that system is (game balance, yeah yeah), isn't the Mindoir HQ by itself already a large research firm?

If it's less than a hundred or so researchers, then it is understandable that they can all concentrate on a single tech project. More than that, even with Revy sprinkling magic inspiration, I don't see how you can avoid the "too many cooks in the kitchen" problem if you force them all to work on the same project.

 

[Hazard]

There is actually a specific tech series for UV laser weapons, then X-ray lasers, then gamma ray lasers. We probably want to pick up UV lasers this quarter, actually: the 4-10x range boost will ensure that our Pyndas can reliably destroy any current-gen starship they come across.

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Yes, 400, 800 and 1600 RP, respectively. Keep in mind that the Citadel has gotten to UV laser tech and decided 'too much effort to be battle effective,' and required that Paragon Industries invested in gigaWatt range lasers and then build a frigate around operating them powered by Arc Reactors. Quite frankly if we see laser weapons deployed we're unlikely to see them deployed against us unless the Reapers want to fan the flames of progress even more, and they've got to be getting a little nervous about their odds of harvesting the current cycle without catastrophic losses if they do that.

Didn't we discuss a few posts ago to ME shields for a total reflection effect? If I didn't get that totally wrong, we'd use a variant of that for lensing. I mean, as long as we mix real world science with magic we can go full bore ...

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There's a few problems with that, mostly dealing with sheer energy cost, the need for TIR capacity, the ability to create TIR fields in very small spaces, waste heat disposal, lasers that are actually worthwhile to use TIR on for lensing...

We're talking about a several thousand RP investment.

Can any given nation do that? Sure.

It'll take them forcing most of their internal R&D weapons and high energy physics groups to work together. That can be difficult. Especially since TIR requires Advanced Materials tech, which means that you also need materials sciences specialists to formulate the required materials. Part of the reason PI can pull such miracles is because it draws on an entire species' brain pool and then stuffs the best of them together on the same planet and has them work together on problems, so there's no real constraint beyond 'do I need to ask the guy in the next lab over for help?'

 

[Amador]

Is anyone else wondering why the Council has dropped the legal quota for arc reactors? Because this makes me hear that they have the ability to make their own arc reactors now. How does the Salarian or Asari being able to produce arc reactors without our involvement affect PI and the SA?