Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

[Yog]

Wait, what? What weapon are you planning on using then? You're already dismissing lasers; Repulsors are way too short range; are you suggesting we use regular un-upgraded MACs as the primary weapon for TIR-stealth ships?

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Lasers against non-TIR protected ships. Black hole guns if TIR stealth is not an issue / can't be used for some reason. Missiles and MACs against TIR-stealthed vessels. Antimatter weaponry when we get it against everything.

Black hole guns shoot singularities. Those should light up gravitational wave detectors like nothing else. Even the primitive ones would be able to track those. This means that point defenses would be able to track them. And that the ship launching them would also be detectable.

 

[Hoyr]

If we're going this route, where upscaling the Black Hole gun is its own hidden tech series, all that goes out the window.

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It'll probably be a pretty short tree to be honest... the weapon at it's core is still a MAC, it just has the extra complication of needing to fire a rather dense object and needing to shield the interior of the barrel. Oh and making sure that the weapon's properties remain as it travels. Principle problem with long range mass effect weapons: mass effect isn't particularly long ranged most of the time.

So I was going to make it scale off of the level of MAC tech you had once you got the "use whatever MAC scale you have" tech.

The thing that worries me is that, in atmosphere or on the ground, you'll have the atmosphere interacting directly with the FTL-quality TIR field. I'm not sure what that will do, exactly, but it probably involves spewing Cerenkov radiation everywhere, both inside and outside the field. I'm also not sure we can easily build FTL-quality fields around infantry-scale suits without the Ultracompact FTL drives tech.

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Charge and singularity make me feel this isn't an issue. Singularity in fact looks like the black light-hole effect that I was describing for one TIR type and singularity is probably FTL level if working in the other direction. Odd general rule of thumb for ME: radiation isn't that much of a problem unless there is tons of it. Seriously the Arc-thrower in ME2 using a gamma ray laser to trace the path for the lighting, you get a particle gun...

Radiation seems like a solved problem for most "low level" effects. Not sure how, but that's what I got out of things.

re grav. wave sensors usable in atmosphere and can they be scaled to fit into power armor? To see through walls and TIR shields.

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No reason they couldn't be used in atmosphere. Size would probably be directly related to sensitivity/range... so you could make power armor sized ones... not sure how good they'd be off the top of my head.

 

[Yog]

No reason they couldn't be used in atmosphere. Size would probably be directly related to sensitivity/range... so you could make power armor sized ones... not sure how good they'd be off the top of my head.

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Well, if they even just could work as advanced version of ground penetrating radar, allowing our troops to see enemies through (thin) walls, that would be worth a lot already.

Also they might allow to detect ME field using devices, which should be quite useful - all those mass accelerators would provide a nice target set. As would biotics.

 

[Carrnage]

All this talk of black holes has given me a thought, could we use mass effect to reduce the gravity of one to levels safe enough for study?

 

[Yog]

All this talk of black holes has given me a thought, could we use mass effect to reduce the gravity of one to levels safe enough for study?

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Cosmic TOP SECRET (Project Veto). Why, yes, scientific study and exploitation of black holes are very much on my agenda. Alternatively, there was discussion of hiding most sensitive research inside the event horizon of black holes (by creating localized bubble of different C inside black holes where, for the observer inside the bubble, the black hole is smaller). And using something like veto to generate lots of particle radiation to artificially generate eezo.

 

[Dromeosaur]

Cosmic TOP SECRET (Project Veto). Why, yes, scientific study and exploitation of black holes are very much on my agenda. Alternatively, there was discussion of hiding most sensitive research inside the event horizon of black holes (by creating localized bubble of different C inside black holes where, for the observer inside the bubble, the black hole is smaller). And using something like veto to generate lots of particle radiation to artificially generate eezo.

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Isn't inside Black Hole like on the opposite end of scale from safety? I think that inside the planet core is much better. If it is cold there, we can even do it now! And destroying the lab would trouble even the Reapers.

 

[Fehu]

Reapers has caused several planetary mass extinction events, of which said planets have yet to recouperate for at least 50k years. They would probably be ok grinding most planets to dust if it threatened their cycles; as it wouldnt go against the prime directive of "giving organics a chance to evolve" they would just have more time prepping and would now have cleaned up all those pesky warnings.

Now if @Hoyr goes with the developers other idea of the Reapera pretty much using the Milky way as a huge Lab/Super computer to resolve why dark matter affects stars like the one Haestrom orbits on the other hand. (Me2 Tali mission)

 

[DakkaMania]

@Yog

I'd switch energy weapons and the armor around. Realistically, the war will stay in space for at least a few turns before serious planetary invasions start.

And even then, Anhur demonstrated that if you use enough drones, urban combat becomes downright easy.

Even then, Legionaries already require anti-tank weapons to take down. Random snipers and IEDs are not particularly threatening.

 

[Fehu]

I like the sound of relocating to a fleet, is it legal to build Dreadnaught sized ships with only 'defensive' capabilities? Besides our solution to the Reaper wars could as much be a covert exodus to deep space. Cold fusion tech and a silly amount of energy from barely any mass... we could probably stay in cryosleep a long time

Another idea if Arc mk X may be nano or microsized there could be a gray goo solution to the Reapers. (Im thinking continueing our minituarization tech from the Philus and create a indoctrination resistant final solution. Then tagg em to only attack Indoctrination EMs/stuff, Revy uploading her mind into a galactic neural network of nanomachinery or setting them loose while escaping in Colony dreadnaughts...

Another idea is a war of atrition based on hyperspace/something, relocating to fleets strip-mining starsystems with VI/cloning. Not attacking until ready, maybe with somekind of singularity tech used to detonate the star remotely when Reapers arrive in such systems.

 

[Dark as Silver]

I like the sound of relocating to a fleet, is it legal to build Dreadnaught sized ships with only 'defensive' capabilities? Besides our solution to the Reaper wars could as much be a covert exodus to deep space. Cold fusion tech and a silly amount of energy from barely any mass... we could probably stay in cryosleep a long time

Another idea if Arc mk X may be nano or microsized there could be a gray goo solution to the Reapers. (Im thinking continueing our minituarization tech from the Philus and create a indoctrination resistant final solution. Then tagg em to only attack Indoctrination EMs/stuff, Revy uploading her mind into a galactic neural network of nanomachinery or setting them loose while escaping in Colony dreadnaughts...

Another idea is a war of atrition based on hyperspace/something, relocating to fleets strip-mining starsystems with VI/cloning. Not attacking until ready, maybe with somekind of singularity tech used to detonate the star remotely when Reapers arrive in such systems.

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Gray goo is a possible weapon against the Reapers, the problem is that its so hilariously illegal anyone even suspecting that we are researching it will get us on basically everyones shit list. At least until people say, to hell with it, we need something that can bear Reapers, heres a wheelbarrow of cash help us Revy.

 

[Stroth]

Gray goo is a possible weapon against the Reapers, the problem is that its so hilariously illegal anyone even suspecting that we are researching it will get us on basically everyones shit list. At least until people say, to hell with it, we need something that can bear Reapers, heres a wheelbarrow of cash help us Revy.

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Also kind of unlikely to work. It's pretty heavily implied that the Reapers are really amazing with nanotech. Revy is great and all, but we shouldn't be aiming to fight them with one of their strengths.

 

[remulian]

Gray goo is a possible weapon against the Reapers, the problem is that its so hilariously illegal anyone even suspecting that we are researching it will get us on basically everyones shit list. At least until people say, to hell with it, we need something that can bear Reapers, heres a wheelbarrow of cash help us Revy.

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Luckily we are slowly getting embroiled in a Terminus War where we could secure a black site research facility that is out of everyones oversight.

Also kind of unlikely to work. It's pretty heavily implied that the Reapers are really amazing with nanotech. Revy is great and all, but we shouldn't be aiming to fight them with one of their strengths.

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Not directly , no. But if we can get around to develop a VN Army akin to say, Supreme Commander, we would be able to fight off their ability to gather massive numerical superiority in a local theater once they take over the Relay Systems.

That or, firepower to take them on without them getting on a similar level (unlikely) or another way of transportation independent of the Relay Network (our own perhaps?) and something of numeric and technological parity.


If we want to defeat the Reapers we basically need to get superior to them in a few areas just to conunter their across the board higher technological level compared to vanilla Citadel Standard, numeric superiority and ability to take over the Relay System, the greatest strategical system in the galaxy.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Luckily we are slowly getting embroiled in a Terminus War where we could secure a black site research facility that is out of everyones oversight.

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Not a useful idea. The research site on Ilium has a massive nerf to the research it provides because Revy can't micromanage and point out dead ends in research and stuff, this black site you propose would be similarly handicapped. It would take many many times as long to research those techs than equivalent techs and if we were to put enough resources towards actually getting stuff done quickly then we'd probably be caught on the first audit.

 

[Yog]

@Yog

I'd switch energy weapons and the armor around. Realistically, the war will stay in space for at least a few turns before serious planetary invasions start.

And even then, Anhur demonstrated that if you use enough drones, urban combat becomes downright easy.

Even then, Legionaries already require anti-tank weapons to take down. Random snipers and IEDs are not particularly threatening.

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Armors lend themselves to special ops operations, taking out enemy government, espionage and such. Energy weapons are very useful and important, yes, but armor gives more tactical mobility. I don't doubt SA's ability to kick Batarian ass in war. I want to give them options that make such war unnecessary. To allow more tactical options. Also, protecting our people is more important than killing the enemy.

 

[TheEyes]

Armors lend themselves to special ops operations, taking out enemy government, espionage and such. Energy weapons are very useful and important, yes, but armor gives more tactical mobility. I don't doubt SA's ability to kick Batarian ass in war. I want to give them options that make such war unnecessary. To allow more tactical options. Also, protecting our people is more important than killing the enemy.

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Unless I miss my guess, we are about to see the Human-Batarian war move from cold to hot. Should that be the case, then espionage is going to be less important than being able to secure a decisive, overt naval advantage, something even state-run media won't be able to ignore, like our frigates shredding their dreadnoughts.

 

[Yog]

Unless I miss my guess, we are about to see the Human-Batarian war move from cold to hot. Should that be the case, then espionage is going to be less important than being able to secure a decisive, overt naval advantage, something even state-run media won't be able to ignore, like our frigates shredding their dreadnoughts.

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Sabotage then. Mk 2 is good for covert insertions, for operating behind enemy lines, for extraction, for sabotage of naval installations, for urban warfare.

Besides, again, protecting our people is more important then harming their people in my book. Thus, armor first, personal energy weapons second (ie next quarter).

 

[DakkaMania]

Armors lend themselves to special ops operations, taking out enemy government, espionage and such. Energy weapons are very useful and important, yes, but armor gives more tactical mobility. I don't doubt SA's ability to kick Batarian ass in war. I want to give them options that make such war unnecessary. To allow more tactical options. Also, protecting our people is more important than killing the enemy.

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You do realize that you are starting to grasp at straws for any excuse why ground combat is relevant?

Our Legionaires can do SpeCOps just fine. Nevermind that the Batarians are a case where the government isn't the problem, but the entire culture.

Taking out the leadership just produces a Weimar situation as the rest of the upper castes resent the humiliation and we get another war when the Reapers come (when else would they do it?). Grinding them into the dust, utterly, means we can dictate how society is rebuilt.

Nevermind that in order to reach the planets, we have to wreck their navy first. And unless you want to bleed hulls, energy weapons are the way to utterly dominate that theatre. If we control space, we also control the ground situation as we can just flood areas with drones, break any resistance and redeploy the drones.

The Mk. II is at the moment just a shiny gimmick that doesn't really changes the battlefield situation in time to be relevant as we can't churn out millions of them (neither could the SA really pay for it that quickly) nor can the troops be trained fast enough in their use.

Miniaturized Energy Weapons on the other hand just amplify an existing technology to a level where more weapons can be mounted. The relevant training already exists but still means that the Batarians biggest threat is neutered. They can't strike back without a navy, after all. That means the SA can just besiege their planets and defeat them in detail at leisure.


Edit:

Sabotage then. Mk 2 is good for covert insertions, for operating behind enemy lines, for extraction, for sabotage of naval installations, for urban warfare.

Besides, again, protecting our people is more important then harming their people in my book. Thus, armor first, personal energy weapons second (ie next quarter).

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You do realize that our people are on the ships as well, and there we have no convenient drone hordes to take the bulk of the casualities?

Making the ships that much stronger means we take away the Batarians ability to strike at human civilians.

 

[GulibleLeprecon]

Nevermind that in order to reach the planets, we have to wreck their navy first.

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According to the battle rolls in the system GM currently uses Legionary Suit compared to galactic standard gear is just +6, while orbital support is +8. Legionary suits are very cool lore-wise, but not so much mechanics-wise. I feel the system should be upgraded due to new tech, but that's how it is so far. Or did we switch to more narrative-driven battles?

 

[UberJJK]

Grinding them into the dust, utterly, means we can dictate how society is rebuilt.

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That is basically how I see the Batarian war having to go. There isn't going to be some easy victory where the Alliance just sweeps in, pulls of a decapitating blow, and saunters off home having shown the Batarians the error of their ways.

If it was the Council would have dealt with the Batarians long before humanity showed up.

No if any progress is to be made a decades long occupation of Batarian territory, much like how even today American troops are still in Germany, combined with well funded and supported societal reform programs are needed. We basically have to grind slavery out of the Batarian culture to the point that, like Germany and the Nazis, the very idea of it is considered offensive.

That will be by no means be easy or clean. From what little we see there is very little desire in the general Batarian population for change. It's kinda like the Ferangi from Star Trek; no one really wants to stop the exploitation, they simply want to transit from the exploited to the exploiter.


Finally there is a last damning point in the idea of Special Ops; there is no Normandy. Without a stealth ship capable of penetrating planetary sensor nets and starship patrols the only way to put a SpecOps team on the ground would be through a conventional assault, at which point they are not of much use.

 

[Carrnage]

You do realize that our people are on the ships as well, and there we have no convenient drone hordes to take the bulk of the casualities?

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the armor is vacuum rated and can function as a personal escape pod.

 

[Yog]

One thing I think people are mistaken about: time scales. One turn is a quarter of a year. How long do you thing a war where we "grind them into dust" would last?

 

[DakkaMania]

the armor is vacuum rated and can function as a personal escape pod.

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You do realize that the Mk II is fairly expensive and we can't shit out millions of them at the drop of a hat so we can give one to everyone?

One thing I think people are mistaken about: time scales. One turn is a quarter of a year. How long do you thing a war where we "grind them into dust" would last?

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2-3 years. The Batarians have as I said, strategic depth by simple virtue of being a advanced civilization a few millenia longer than humanity. That means simple population growth would have filled up a few worlds and gave them a GDP capable of fielding a military that is of appropriate size.

At this point in time they haven't left the Citadel either, which means they haven't wrecked their own economy.

Simply put, I expect them to outnumber the Alliance in space at least 3 to 1. The alliance compensates with our tech, covert support from the Citadel and the Batarians being set up ass backwards to keep the upper castes in power and not be effective.

 

[GulibleLeprecon]

You do realize that the Mk II is fairly expensive and we can't shit out millions of them at the drop of a hat so we can give one to everyone?

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So far CHA made within 400k mark 1.75. With our current production we can get maybe a few dozen thousand of them per quarter.

 

[Hazard]

That is basically how I see the Batarian war having to go. There isn't going to be some easy victory where the Alliance just sweeps in, pulls of a decapitating blow, and saunters off home having shown the Batarians the error of their ways.

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When the culture is the problem, charging in, making a lot of noise, killing a few people in charge, killing a lot more people along the way and then charging out tends to only make the situation worse, yes.

This is something that RL politicians seem to not get, and ME politicians are unlikely to get as well. It's quite possible that humanity will be given a choice by the Citadel Council and/or the Terminus; to only perform a limited war with no occupation, to perform a total war with a decades long occupation but massive diplomatic repercussions or to perform a short war focused on bombing the Batarian Hegemony so hard that most of the population will die and that what remains collapses in warlord based in fighting, along with major diplomatic repercussions for the Systems Alliance because holy hell what the fuck.

No if any progress is to be made a decades long occupation of Batarian territory, much like how even today American troops are still in Germany, combined with well funded and supported societal reform programs are needed. We basically have to grind slavery out of the Batarian culture to the point that, like Germany and the Nazis, the very idea of it is considered offensive.

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The Allies had a pretty simple job when convincing the Germans to hate the Nazis, given that a good chunk of the population knew something fishy was going on but had no idea what exactly was being done in their name.

 

[TheEyes]

Sabotage then. Mk 2 is good for covert insertions, for operating behind enemy lines, for extraction, for sabotage of naval installations, for urban warfare.

Besides, again, protecting our people is more important then harming their people in my book. Thus, armor first, personal energy weapons second (ie next quarter).

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Protection is just as much a reason for lasers as armor. In fact I'd argue that lasers are more important in this regard: our chief vulnerability right now is that our frigates still need to close within striking distance of the enemy because our lasers just don't have the range yet to just sit outside their range and snipe them. On the ground we're just plain not vulnerable: we're not even using humans to attack at all, with our boss drones doing all the violence.

By the same token, sabotage is important and useful, but not as important as being unassailable in space.