- Location
- America
So if we pointed that say, Batarian orbital command assets . . .
Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution
- Thread starter Hoyr
- Start date
The only thing I can think of to add as a separate tech that we haven't already demonstrated in-character is starship-scale Repulsor engines... which now that I think about it could be a way to give us an engines tech tree. Right now all our Repulsor engines are vehicle-scale at best; it could be possible to add separate techs for larger-scale Repulsors (1-meter diameter for frigates, 3-meter diameter for cruisers, 6-meter diameter for heavy cruisers, 10-meter diameter for dreadnoughts, etc), and would in turn make the "no giant arrays of Repulsors" rule more meaningful. It's a similar idea to how we need extra techs for larger-scale ships in the first place, and meshes with the idea of needing to invest extra research into larger scale Arc Reactors.
Re: .9999... etc railguns: relevant xkcd; and no, it's not the relativistic baseball one; it's the diamond meteor hitting the Earth one:
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
you decelerate.
This is true
True, but Normandy dodged pretty good in ME2 of course the core wasn't on supposedly, but well cut scene all the usual (Like no thrusters doing the dodging IIRC).
The bigger problem I guess is why not faster? It's easy.
So you telling me it's now AP as well? Cause all of that sounds good.
It doesn't have to be 0.99c or more just enough of light speed that it gets better hit range. More than 0.014c. There's also the lingering ME fields which may or may not be a thing and what does that do?
I have feeling that would really annoy people.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
You start a war.
Starting wars without the go-ahead from your government is generally frowned upon.
No more than our other ship scaling techs. More importantly, it will let us keep the larger-scale repulsor engine techs off of the patent lists, and thus (hopefully) out of Reaper hands.
Of course, at this point we have such a gigantic tech tree that I doubt we'll ever complete even a quarter of them before the end of the Quest....
Recoil.
It's mentioned multiple times as the main limiting factor on MACs. It neatly explains why they don't make more powerful MACs* and why they don't use the ME core to lower the ship's mass** to make it more maneuverable.
*Because the acceleration would be strong enough to either rip the MAC from it's mountings, rip the thing apart in general, or just rip the ship apart.
**A 90m MAC round has a momentum of 53,665.6Nm. Applied to a 5,000,000kg ship that is only a Delta-V of 0.01m/s but a 500kg ship would experience 107.3312m/s which would cause all sorts of problems.
- Location
- America
I mean after the Batarians inevitably declare war on us. It's going to happen.
- Location
- Leeds
You guys have been busy while I was asleep.
Garrus's father had a heart attack when he saw how rapidly PI was causing the Alliance military to grow in power. This left Garrus free to follow his heart and get a sex change and pursue a career in Archaeology rather than C-Sec.
Might have misunderstood, but wouldn't you have reducing max velocities for increased length?
No need to cap the speed, as soon as it is no longer travelling in the ME bubble and therefore is faster than c it rapidly decelerates and gives off huge quantities of radiation.
Depends, can't be bothered to do the maths but given that Yog showed that both frequency and wavelength change as light travels out of ME fields its possible that it would interfere with itself.
Okay first off why are you using Newton-meters for momentum? A newton-meter is a unit of torque or energy. Momentum is Newton-seconds or kg*m/s.
Not entirely as long as the round is in the mass effect field the recoil produced will be less as the ship is pushing against less mass. The 20kg round example at a velocity of 300,000,000m/s has a momentum of 6,000,000,000Ns normally yes, but in the mass lightening field required for the acceleration to produce the speeds in question the mass will be reduced so much that the momentum recoil will be a piddly 52.56Ns regardless of gun length or any other factor. That's ironically specifically called out in the weapon blurb ME fields reduce recoil (I actually didn't understand that until now, but get it.. you got one right bioware. Mind the rest of its a mess).
A ship lightening itself (and the round with it) will experience the same momentum recoil as if it didn't. The main concern is if lightening the whole ship inhibits the lighting of the round and lighter rounds are required to avoid issues. Our the first example of possible railgun effects produces ~3,598Ns. Increased round-only lighting can only make things better. Also ME fields don't seem to conserve momentum which is even more fun.
Edit: Don't they don't.. stupid important two lets and a symbol
Now the energy transfer... that's messy, yes they're two types of recoil usually energy doesn't matter as much heat balances it out. The Codex says that the energy recoil (they just say " mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy" but this has to be what they mean or it's all crazy). The energy recoil on a lighter ship is a bitch I agree, if the forces and distance stay the same the mass only effects the resulting speed not the energy. This does explain why the guns don't have more energy per shot (and would scale with ship mass/dampener power) and why ships don't super evade and fire at the same time (taking hits would be bad too), any more and the inertial dampeners can't save the crew/ship of course there is some amount of acceptable levels. That's not what I'm getting at. I'm asking why the rounds aren't faster due to mass lighting with the same energy as it nothing but beneficial (save if the thing @TheEyes brought up is a problem not a benefit, and thus so upper bound. Actually that does explain planetary bombarment).
Additional if you don't want to fire is the evasion benefit outweigh the harm of getting hit? Or how quickly can you change the field to your advantage?
Totally amusing side note: If a ships engines are all broken you can accelerate the ship by lightening it and firing the MACs. It's quite effective.
Ah but I tend to subscribe to the idea that ME fields linger for a time it's how somethings are described to work (can only recall the Blackstorm/Darkstar of the top of my head) so it doesn't instantly leave the bubble it take some of the bubble with it.
Nope, 162TJ * (Length/800)^3.
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Implying they won't just be defending themselves from the misguided aggression of racist humans and working on "piracy initiatives".
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Hey, woah - merely calling it aggression doesn't do those darn humans and their goals of cultural genocide justice!
So, Fem!IndianaJones!Garrus.
...
I'll take it.
Okay first off why are you using Newton-meters for momentum? A newton-meter is a unit of torque or energy. Momentum is Newton-seconds or kg*m/s.
Mostly because I couldn't remember the unit and just went with my best guess. I was close!
And we are explicitly told:
so apparently the mass effect fields aren't anywhere near as effective as the math suggests they should be.Codex:Weapons: Mass Accelerators said:
The most reasonable explanation there is that the energy doesn't just vanish in a puff of smoke but instead acts upon the Eezo powering the fields. If this transference is not perfectly efficient it could explain mitigating the recoil while still allowing it to be high enough to be off concern.
Because you can't have both faster and same energy.
If I decrease the projectile's mass in the barrel I get a significant boost to it's speed yes. The problem is that the projectile's speed remains constant, as long as it's sub-C, once it leaves the barrel, and hence the mass effect fields, so I've effectively increased it's impact energy and hence the recoil on the ship.
The only way to actually get faster projectiles would with lower mass ones. I wouldn't be surprised if mass has a minimum bound due to the energies and accelerations involved. Too low and the projectile could break apart inside the barrel, which would be devastating to the ship shooting.
This is actually brought up in the Kodak Codex entry:
Eh... @UberJJK or whoever worked on them last the company assets breakdown and enumerated assets tab are wrong (I think). PI and ParSec appear to be missing a small army and a few troops on Benning go poof from last quarter to this... did I miss something?
Good point! So there is a balancing game... huh cool.
But that would mean the same thing happens to the drives while the ship in in it's very powerful FTL bubble wouldn't it?
Do you see the problem? (Curse you Bioware! Hell the deceleration radiation and the drives is pretty bad, ignoring anything else)
Only if you conserve speed (which allows me/you to make planet cracker fighters they'd be one shots under that idea, but still . However, speed conservation is an option... damn it ME) and rounds don't carry a lingering ME charge which we see several times in the form of some biotic effects, the Blackstorm/Darkstar, and if you'll take art the ME1 round, impact and muzzle flash color without mods were ME field blue.
I find the entire thing a massive mess and that makes it hard to tinker with and well science based game. Tinkering it's a thing. Batter part of the codex regarding relativity, kinematics and mass effect needs to be tossed.
Wouldn't be hard to redo it so that it's less broken, I think. <- famous last words
Good point! So there is a balancing game... huh cool.
But that would mean the same thing happens to the drives while the ship in in it's very powerful FTL bubble wouldn't it?
Do you see the problem? (Curse you Bioware! Hell the deceleration radiation and the drives is pretty bad, ignoring anything else)
Only if you conserve speed (which allows me/you to make planet cracker fighters
they'd be one shots under that idea, but still . However, speed conservation is an option... damn it ME) and rounds don't carry a lingering ME charge which we see several times in the form of some biotic effects, the Blackstorm/Darkstar, and if you'll take art the ME1 round, impact and muzzle flash color without mods were ME field blue.I find the entire thing a massive mess and that makes it hard to tinker with and well science based game. Tinkering it's a thing. Batter part of the codex regarding relativity, kinematics and mass effect needs to be tossed.
Wouldn't be hard to redo it so that it's less broken, I think. <- famous last words
Don't do it! You'll find months have gone by without you noticing!
Fixed the security squads bit. ParSec isn't recorded there, because it would get crazy fast, but instead on the Company Asset Breakdown tab.
You raise an excellent counter point (Damn Bioware!). If the effect only happened when the object exited a mass effect field might explain it? Projectiles leave going full speed while ships will have slowed down to STL speeds and they don't really "exit" the field so much as drop it...
I suggest you just go back to the good old standby of chanting "It's just a game. It's just a game. It's just a game..."
Well how else would it make sense? If you don't conserve speed then either the energy goes away, in which case there was no point in using Eezo, or the mass goes up and everything we see in ME points to super-fast projectiles not super-massive projectiles.
But it so tempting!
Yeah it's just ParSec seems to be missing:
Well...
[X][Manufacturing] Construct 400 Legionary Suits for ParSec - 285m + 1,200 production
[X] Construct 50 Tigers for ParSec - 400m + 1,350 production
[X] Construct 5,000 Accipiter "Atmospheric Edition" Drones for ParSec - 1,000m + 5,000 production
[X] Construct 60 Gladius Fighter (Type C) for ParSec - 15,847.92 m + 57,000 production
[X] Construct 120 Small Anti-ship missiles, 12 Standard Anti-ship missiles, and 8 Large Anti-ship missiles for ParSec - 5,586 m + 15,960 production
[X] Construct 400 Hydra cluster missiles for ParSec - 1,600 m + 6,800 production
[X] Buy and retrofit the "Dragon Lady" transport (modified) for ParSec - 4,958.5 m + 4,976 Production
[X][Human Resources] Hire 240 Pilots at 37,500cr each per quarter - 9m
[X] Hire 60 Fighter Support Teams at 1,250k each per quarter - 75m
[X] Search for skilled and experienced commanders interested in commanding fighter squadrons (20 Fighters) for ParSec
[X] Continue the search for skilled and experienced commanders interested in managing ParSec
[X] Construct 50 Tigers for ParSec - 400m + 1,350 production
[X] Construct 5,000 Accipiter "Atmospheric Edition" Drones for ParSec - 1,000m + 5,000 production
[X] Construct 60 Gladius Fighter (Type C) for ParSec - 15,847.92 m + 57,000 production
[X] Construct 120 Small Anti-ship missiles, 12 Standard Anti-ship missiles, and 8 Large Anti-ship missiles for ParSec - 5,586 m + 15,960 production
[X] Construct 400 Hydra cluster missiles for ParSec - 1,600 m + 6,800 production
[X] Buy and retrofit the "Dragon Lady" transport (modified) for ParSec - 4,958.5 m + 4,976 Production
[X][Human Resources] Hire 240 Pilots at 37,500cr each per quarter - 9m
[X] Hire 60 Fighter Support Teams at 1,250k each per quarter - 75m
[X] Search for skilled and experienced commanders interested in commanding fighter squadrons (20 Fighters) for ParSec
[X] Continue the search for skilled and experienced commanders interested in managing ParSec
You paid for that right and built it? Cause you totally voted to do that.
Ah but the exhaust will leave the field... and every engine is a weapon. In this case a particle/radiation cannon possibly rated in the petawatts.
Chanting has begun.
Well my initial theory after doing the math for the three conservations (speed=free energy, momentum=everything is backwards of the way its described, energy=doesn't match descriptions) I could think of was that if speed and momentum weren't conserved it was because the round didn't leave the field, part of the field went with the round letting it temporarily go really really fast. Over time the field would fade and everything would adjust back to normal "smoothly" rather than a rapid shift from in to out. Same would happen to ships loosing their fields the field wouldn't just go poof, but would fade rapidly, the ship would experience deceleration and any charged particles would be spitting out deceleration radiation consuming the ships KE.
This idea brought to you by the power of wishful thinking!
Edit: Okay last call is there anything you want you advisers to advise you on specifically or in general regularly?
Cause I'm done with the first bit save any last requests and a vote for what to do with ParSec 1818 words right now. That may have to wait unitl after I sleep. I have to do things to morrow and I hear sleep is good.
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Lindsey: Where the market is going and what opportunities exist within for us to exploit.
Political-guy-whose-name-I-can't-remember: All the political stuff!
uh... do we have any other advisers? Maybe ParSec guy?
Emizaquel
What is a self?
Assuming that the ship's superstructure allows for the recoil to be absorbed and used to propel the ship (it should), that might actually be the reason why they can go superluminal as they experience more thrust than their fuel's mass should provide should the entire system be outside an outside a FTL bubble. Thus the high C-frac particle beam provides more thrust in comparison when the ship is within the FTL bubble allowing them to somehow circumvent relativity? (My brain meats were confused by the chain of logic here but it kinda makes sense?)
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Chargone
Invisable operator
- Location
- New Zealand
Ok, wait: Normal engine exhaust expelled out of the ship's ME bubble is basically a nasty partical beam?*
1:why has no one turned this into a gun yet. (At least for somewhere from ship to vehical scale use)
2: this potentially makes the SA's objection to the repulsor Even More Stupid. Because, if i understand this correctly (and admittedly i probably don't), a Repulsor drive should do Less of this, no?
*Edit: hold on, isn't there Antimatter in this process somewhere on warships? May or may not do anything to this, but...
1:why has no one turned this into a gun yet. (At least for somewhere from ship to vehical scale use)
2: this potentially makes the SA's objection to the repulsor Even More Stupid. Because, if i understand this correctly (and admittedly i probably don't), a Repulsor drive should do Less of this, no?
*Edit: hold on, isn't there Antimatter in this process somewhere on warships? May or may not do anything to this, but...
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I choose to believe that there are only a choice few applications of ME technology that had its maths explained in protean caches(and they before them etc), restricting people to guns, anti gravity, gravity, force fields and FTL. They do not get to have Mass Manipulation that they can pull a Andromeda Ascendant and make the ship basically have 5kg and have the propulsion and thrust of a megamillion ton warship.
The only way they get to unlock ME is if they have time to reverse engineer other applications from what they have, and that is massively time and resource intensive. Time and Resources that the Reapers do not allow to be amassed.
The only way they get to unlock ME is if they have time to reverse engineer other applications from what they have, and that is massively time and resource intensive. Time and Resources that the Reapers do not allow to be amassed.
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So I've done some testing and this just doesn't work. First up a ship with a speed of 15LY/days requires zero power according to this. Secondly it spits out some rather weird numbers.
So Instead I've assumed a standard 15LY/14PSL FTL Drive requires 458MW, which puts brings the standard loadout up to a total power consumption of 2GW.
Now that seems really low. However when you look at the numbers it all fits together. MACs are quite low power since Eezo does all the heavy lifting, shields are much more power hungry since, again, Eezo does most the heavy lift. Anti-Matter is the most expensive due to all the magnetic and kinetic shields. But it's all around not that much power.
Which really makes 18GW UV Lasers and Repulsors 7TW engines feel really out of place...
Still pressing forwards I developed this formula:
Power (MW) = 458 * (L/100)^3 * (P/14%) * 5000^((T-15)/10)
It seems to work alright. Although the low power drives have basically zero power draw but that makes sense considering how little Eezo there is in them by comparison.
Now with all that math done, for now!, I present my Ship Designer Sheet V1.
The instructions are simple: If it's not this color don't touch it. If it is that color then what to do should be pretty obvious. Customize the ship to your hearts content, within the system's constraints, and see what happens!
The SA is already directly involved with a war with the Batarian Hegemony, and it's only the barest of fictions that keeps it from being called as such. Make no mistake, the batarian government is directly involved in supporting and funding the raids and attacks on military and civilian targets in Systems Alliance space. The events of the Bring Down the Sky DLC in Mass Effect 1 makes that clear enough.
@UberJJK , @Hoyr could you give me some numbers I need to adhere to (basically, fitting points), so I could try making the formula too? Basically, "a dreadnought ought to have this much eezo" and the like. The more the better.
Thank you. Sorry to bother you, but I have a lot of work at the moment, and can't follow the conversation as closely as I'd like.
Thank you. Sorry to bother you, but I have a lot of work at the moment, and can't follow the conversation as closely as I'd like.
Have those three... not lots to say for each right no though I do have a few more things for Lindsey.
Laurence Freeman is politics guy. I'm only said things about the Terminus in general, the Citadel and Anhur so far... I can add one or two other things, or did you want me to do a full review of everyone (not going to do that regularly).
Andrew Nicolas* is ParSec guy, he doesn't have much to say as the troops are just sitting there right now, but then again I'm no sure how many troops he has. I'm putting the potential ParSec missions and Andrews thoughts on them in their own section
*So no one commented, but Andrew is the canon proper name of Ender Wiggan, Ender is just a nick name.
Also so where is the small army the player ordered in calm hiding in the sheets? I think my figures are wrong, at least the cash ones.
The thing is that the mass of ship should be so low that you can go FTL with kiloNewtons of trust. Go look up the Saturn V rocket's trust or thrust for other in use or theoretical engines (Atomic Rockets has a nice engine list as an example).
So no not really needed, In fact I'd probably break the ship recall the ship is receiving energy recoil in the measure of petawatts, BOOM!
Of course this is all theory, so put on you colanders and start chanting the mantra!
1) No one has turned it into a gun because UberJJK and I were discussing theories. I was pointing out that the description he offered would make engines far more dangerous than Codex implies. The correct solution is the MST3k mantra.
2) Actually... it would give the repulsor's virtual exhaust even more killing power, the particle range would be short than a normal drive as they fade out, but they still spray breaking radiation and that doesn't fade.... yeah no they'd be worse probably.
Oops I mean this:
W=(39062.5 * (L)^3) * 5000^((T-15)/10) * ((P/0.14)*0.1+0.9)
Mostly I didn't want the 0.28 core to double power cost this should only add 10%. Mostly because its more a factor of secondary core systems not main core power.
At 15ly/0.14 on a 100m it should spit out 39,062,500,000 or 39 and change gigawatts. At 1000m 39,062,500,000,000 or 39 TW.
I'm not sure if those number a relatively sane but they should be really high if not the highest power draw.
Hmm... on the document the 28PSL cores don't see to cost more that a 14PSL would. Why? Typo? They should cost more *((P/0.14)*k+(1-k)) will scale the core at 0.28 PSL by k. Value of k is up for some debate 0.2<k<1 I figure.
Okay so... I'm going to do this in costs because that's the main data point I have. A ship 135m long has about a 60 billion credits of eezo in the core, a ship with a double eezo mass core (120 billion) has twice the endurance, but doesn't seem to be terribly faster. Fighters have 10 million credit cores, speed unknown. A dreadnought's core should definitely >24 Trillion (the linear scale) but <~32 Trillion (at an estimate). Ships don't go faster that 15Ly/day as both technological limit and a cost limit. Most ships need to do at least 5Ly a day to get anywhere I set this a being 5000 times less than a 15ly core to make civilian ships reasonable. Most ships have a base endurance of 50hours. Ships larger than a 1km start becoming prohibitively expensive. 2km is the sort of thing only a non-capitalist (Geth, Reapers) system could pull off as the cost is pretty much insane (note that cost~mass so at some point you're describing a ship that's 99% eezo.
Other than that... we have piddly canon data (there's some very questionable SR-2 stats) and UberJJK seems to have made bigerships cheaper via some effect so the extra money can be tossed at FTL cores. It maybe that Dreadnoughts due to their size just can't afford 15Ly cores, and 15Ly cores maybe reserved for lighter vessels. Reapers also can do 30Ly in a 2km ship but that maybe do to a different velocity curve than normal.
Does that help or do you need some other info?
Hey @UberJJK can you tell me what you'd put for a "normal" 1000m Dreadnought, I want to see how much money Yog has to play with to make core costs non-linear.